Are people born gay or they become gay after?

  • 87 Replies
  • 33184 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #50 on: 28/04/2006 16:22:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by mikey
One of the characteristics of this reproductive process is that from time to time men and women feel a strong desire to perform this mutual act of reproduction. This is accompanied by strong emotions of attraction to the opposite sex, love, desire to possess or to belong, envy, jealousy, protectiveness. Often people find it difficult to resist or control these desires and emotions. Similar strong emotions are exhibited in relations of parents to their children. Similar emotion or instinct based reproductive process prevails among other animal species.



Not all sexual activity is possessive in nature, and not all animals have the same inter-sexual relationships (in fact, most species will have a particular variant of such relationships that is different from any other species – and in some species, the partners do not necessarily even survive the sexual act).

quote:

But, in addition to emotions and instincts, the human species is endowed with reason and will, which allows it to control emotions and instincts. Human behaviour is a complex interaction between instincts, emotions, reason and will.



I would disagree with statement totally.

All animal (whether human or otherwise) activity must be driven by emotion/instinct, and only that.  Reason will allow you the means to implement emotional desires, so that if you desperateley want something, reason will give you the means to attain it; but reason cannot of itself give you the desire to achieve one goal over another.

quote:

This also applies to the reproductive process. In most human societies from the early times and up to the second half of the 20th century, all forms of sex related behaviour outside of the framework of heterosexual family were strongly disapproved of, and some forms of sex behaviour, and in particular homosexuality even criminalized. Often this was based on religious teachings, which provided the basis of social morality. Thus, in addition to instincts, emotions, reason and will another factor affects human behaviour - morality.

In the 20th century religion-based morality began to be questioned, and the idea was advanced that homosexuality is not a sin or a crime for which a person is responsible and should be punished, but a "mental illness or personality disorder", for which a person is not responsible, and from which he should be cured.



This was actually something that came about in the late 19th century, rather than the 20th century.

Prior to that, the very notion of 'homosexuality' did not exist.  The term was originally coined as a medical term.  The law up to that point only dealt with sodomy, and made no distinction regarding gender.

quote:

And towards the end of the 20th century the idea was promoted that homosexuality is not a "mental illness or personality disorder", but a normal form of human behaviour - or "alternative life style".



As I have tried to point out earlier, it is very difficult to define what normality is – normality can be almost anything you choose it to be.

I think the more pertinent argument was that society (whether rightly or wrongly) no longer considered that the maximising of the birth rate of the population was any longer a primary requirement for society, and so has decided that sexual activity that did not contribute to the maximisation of the birth rate was no longer anti-social.

Society does not care about what is normal, because it defines its own normality; it cares about what is functional, which depends upon the needs of society at the time, which may vary from one time to another.

quote:

So what is homosexuality?

It is a behaviour in the course of which a person satisfies his sexual instincts and emotions by interacting with another person of the same sex.


This is clearly self-deception and behaviour contrary to that intended by Nature or its Creator.



By this criteria, consuming drugs such as alcohol or tobacco, or using artificial sweeteners, or other food substitutes, are also self-deception.

quote:

So why do people engage in such unnatural behaviour? Are people born that way, or do they choose this form of behaviour consciously and voluntarily?

Although it is normal for people to be born with clearly distinct sexual characteristics, it is possible for people to be born with abnormal sexual characteristics. This is similar to people with other congenital abnormalities, like absent, deformed or additional limbs, Siamese twins, etc. Some people are born with underdeveloped, malformed or missing sexual organs. Sometimes the sexual organs of a child are such that it is not clear whether it is a boy or a girl. Some people have inborn behavioral abnormalities. In some cases these abnormalities can be harmless both to the person and others, like a person with six fingers. Sometimes these abnormalities can present a serious handicap to the person, but not to others, like missing limbs. And sometimes a person with congenital abnormalities can be dangerous to others, like a person with violent uncontrollable behaviour.

Yes, people can be born abnormal, but they are not born homosexual. It is meaningless to call a homosexual a person who by virtue of his birth is neither a man, nor a woman - in fact, such people are called hermaphrodites.



If he is neither man nor woman, then she (for the default gender is female) is asexual, not hermaphrodite.  A hermaphrodite is both male and female, which is not the same as being neither.

quote:

Homosexuality is a behaviour, not a physiological characteristic. It is an abnormal behaviour of normal people. It is a result of lack of correct education, and often of corruption by others.

Unlike animals, Man cannot rely exclusively on his instincts and emotions, his instincts and emotions must be controlled by his reason. This control by reason is not inborn, but develops through a prolonged learning process. Usually this happens in a social setting and starts within the family. Even simple instinctive acts like urination are subject to a lengthy learning process. Unlike animals, people do not urinate wherever they feel the urge, they do it in special places. The same applies to the procreational process (sex).



The distinction you make between humans and other animals is wholly erroneous.

Many non-human animals will also learn from their social environment, and many non-human animals will carefully leave their waste product outside, or at the boundary, of their home territories – thus indicating that they too will control where they do and do not urinate/defecate.

This does not prove that either human or non-human animal acts against their instinct, only that they have many instincts, and some of those instincts will modify the natural behaviour induced by other instincts.

Ofcourse, there is an educational process involved in determining one's sexual behaviour (this is where one learns the appropriate courtship rituals for the social group).  But, as we know with all forms of learning, it is not exact, and human beings are not robots to be programmed with exact instructions.  It is natural that there will be some variability in human behaviour (as there is in all animals, and the more complex the animal, the greater the variability).  The question one has to ask is whether a particular variance is tolerable to society or not.  If no variance were permitted, then I for one would long ago have been a criminal.  Clearly, a variance that is permissible in one context, and at one moment in time, may be intolerable in another.

quote:

With the religious morality in Europe and the Americas being abandoned in the 20th century, which lead to spread of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, sex education was introduced in European and American schools.



Religious belief has been on the decline, but that is not to say that religious morality has been on the decline.

Nor am I aware of any increase in unwanted pregnancies – on the contrary, there has probably been an increased use of contraception, leading to a decline in unwanted pregnancies.

There has been an increase in extra-marital pregnancy, but this is not the same as unwanted pregnancies.  These days, it is perfectly acceptable to desire an extra-marital pregnancy, while it is also acceptable for a wife to choose not to become pregnant.

Sexually transmitted diseases come and go in cycles, but I am not aware of any long term increase in them (the history of Syphilis in the 15th and 16th century is no different to the history of AIDS in the 20th and 21st).





George

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #51 on: 28/04/2006 16:58:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Normal is difficult to define as I believe the answer is as unique to an individual as their fingerprints are. This is why I specifically cited that for self evaluation, to have to hand historical data that then portrays what is ‘ usual ‘ for the individual would be helpful.



But, as I indicated earlier, this is a very personal notion of normality.

One may say that it is normal for a particular person to commit murder, and one may also say that it is normal for society to contain murderers, but is this the same as saying it is normal for people to commit murder?

It also depends upon whether one regards the term 'normal' as a synonym for 'typical' or as a synonym for 'acceptable'.  Clearly, in the latter case, one may make a distinction between murder and homosexuality, but then one has to also has to accept that what may be acceptable in one society may not be acceptable in another society, and so that definition of normality becomes totally defined by the society one is in.

quote:

LOL …yes, I expected you would pick me up on that as my use of  ‘gay embrace ‘ was way too subtle…it was a very mild subtle innuendo to maintain  an air of etiquette which in this case plainly misfired ! [;)]



Sorry is that one flew over my head [:I]

I cannot say that I have a great deal of observation in the matter.  One thing I would ask is whether you believe this reflects an actual different in acceptability of the nature of the relationship, or is it more that women are generally more demonstrative in public (and even in private) than men?

quote:

I am sure you are right about the notion of homosexuality in Victorian times but it of course was just as prevalent then as it is now. Except today it has very much come out of the closet.



This is a debatable point.

What is certain is that homosexuality (whatever it is) has always been with us, but we simply do not have the data available to provide any quantitative comparisons.

If the earlier speculation that levels of homosexuality vary with population density have any merit, then one would expect that the modern high population densities should have a higher number of homosexual persons  in the population than was true in past times with lower population densities.




George

*

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 196
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #52 on: 28/04/2006 19:01:22 »
so you say pedophelia amongst catholic priests is a result of them "not controlling their sexual urges"? id say quite the opposite. they put way TOO much control on their sexual urges, since they enter the priesthood they cannot marry or even maturbate! this frustration of "controlling" their urges because they are "unnatural" creates great harm to a persons well-being and more chance for perversion.

people cannot will themselves to change theyre sexuality. they just cant. homosexuality is not self deception, trying to be straight because its "natural" when you dont feel that way is self-deception.

i also dissagree with almost all of your other points, but im sure someone else will break you down for that.

free love, sexual education taught by openminded adults, and free sexual expression are our best chances of having a happy and balanced population.

get blown church boy.
 

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #53 on: 28/04/2006 19:25:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko
so you say pedophelia amongst catholic priests is a result of them "not controlling their sexual urges"? id say quite the opposite. they put way TOO much control on their sexual urges, since they enter the priesthood they cannot marry or even maturbate! this frustration of "controlling" their urges because they are "unnatural" creates great harm to a persons well-being and more chance for perversion.

people cannot will themselves to change theyre sexuality. they just cant. homosexuality is not self deception, trying to be straight because its "natural" when you dont feel that way is self-deception.



Are not the two statements above mutually contradictory.

You say that paedophilia is a consequence of the environment that the priests find themselves in, but in the next statement you say that people's sexual preferences cannot be changed.

If, in your second paragraph, one replaced the word  'homosexuality' with 'paedophilia', how would it make your first paragraph look?



George
« Last Edit: 28/04/2006 19:27:25 by another_someone »

*

Offline Carolyn

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 3761
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #54 on: 28/04/2006 21:48:05 »
quote:
The natural human reproductive process consists of a human male injecting seminal fluid discharged from his penis into the vagina of a human female. This leads to fertilization of the eggs within the womb of the female and eventual birth of a human child. This natural reproductive process of the human species determines the physiological and psychological characteristics of men and women, which are different and reflect their roles in this natural reproductive process. Similar differences between sexes exist in other animal species.

One of the characteristics of this reproductive process is that from time to time men and women feel a strong desire to perform this mutual act of reproduction. This is accompanied by strong emotions of attraction to the opposite sex, love, desire to possess or to belong, envy, jealousy, protectiveness. Often people find it difficult to resist or control these desires and emotions. Similar strong emotions are exhibited in relations of parents to their children. Similar emotion or instinct based reproductive process prevails among other animal species.


So, am I understanding you correctly?  The only time men and women have sex is really when they feel the need to reproduce?  Well, I can assure you that even if I had the ability to reproduce again, I sure as heck wouldn't want to.  You can bet that doesn't stop mine or hubbys sex drive, in fact, I believe we both enjoy it and "do it" alot more than we used to.

quote:
Homosexual women use their tongues, fingers, or similar objects as a substitute for a male penis.


Let's say that for some reason my husband was no longer able to perform his husbandly duties[;)].  If I were to go out and purchase myself an adult toy (and I would in a New York Minute, actually, hubby would probably buy it for me[:D]), would that make me a lesbian?

Mikey - I don't have the time or the energy to argue every ridiculous statement in your post, although George and Neil have done a fantastic job of it.  I would, however, like to know where you've gotten your information, other than that silly website.  If you're going to tell me the Bible is your source of information, then please include the scripture.

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 28/04/2006 21:55:31 by Carolyn »
Carolyn

*

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 196
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #55 on: 01/05/2006 04:18:00 »
another_someone: if it seems contradictory, let me try to explain.

i think in the case of catholic priests, sexual repression and limitation during sexual maturation cause their pedophilia. i dont think, however, pedophiles can change their sexuality after its been developed, any more than homo or heterosexuals. and relieving the environmental factors of not being able to marry or masturbate, wouldnt make a difference after someone has been repressed initially.

 so, the environment one grows in might determine sexuality, but no one can just will their sexuality one direction.
 

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #56 on: 01/05/2006 08:36:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

another_someone: if it seems contradictory, let me try to explain.

i think in the case of catholic priests, sexual repression and limitation during sexual maturation cause their pedophilia. i dont think, however, pedophiles can change their sexuality after its been developed, any more than homo or heterosexuals. and relieving the environmental factors of not being able to marry or masturbate, wouldnt make a difference after someone has been repressed initially.

 so, the environment one grows in might determine sexuality, but no one can just will their sexuality one direction.



The problem I have with this is that you seem to suggest this might be a problem for people who become priests during their adolescent years, yet to my knowledge training for the priesthood does not start until after that point in time.  On the other hand, there are a great many people who pass through a Catholic upbringing who will never become priests, but will be influenced by the doctrines of the Church at precisely the period of time where they would be most sensitive to such formative influences.

Let me put to you another hypothesis why so many priests are paedophilia's.

Let me suggest that these people were latent paedophilia's long before they entered the priesthood.  The (whether consciously or subconsciously) were aware that there sexual preferences were taboo.  Given this fact, they already felt the need to repress their native sexual desires, and were thus attracted to an institution that would institutionalise such a repression of sexuality, as it gave them a sense of safety; unfortunately, a false sense of safety, since (at least for some of them) there sexual desires proves more powerful than the institutionalised taboo could repress.

Paedophiles  are not easy to turn around even with the proper medical infrastructure at your disposal, and the Catholic Church is not really geared to either seek out those who are entering the Church because they are running away from their sexuality, nor to give these people the specialised support they need.



George

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #57 on: 01/05/2006 18:13:04 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep#Behavior
quote:

Homosexuality in male sheep (found in 6–10% of rams) is associated with variations in cerebral mass distribution and chemical activity. A study reported in Endocrinology concluded that biological factors are in play; this study replicated similar findings in humans. It shows that approximately 10% of males are homosexual and that the brains of homosexual males are different.



http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/145/2/478
quote:

The Volume of a Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus in the Ovine Medial Preoptic Area/Anterior Hypothalamus Varies with Sexual Partner Preference
Sheep are one of the few animal models in which natural variations in male sexual preferences have been studied experimentally. Approximately 8% of rams exhibit sexual preferences for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams). We identified a cell group within the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus of age-matched adult sheep that was significantly larger in adult rams than in ewes. This cell group was labeled the ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus (oSDN). In addition to a sex difference, we found that the volume of the oSDN was two times greater in female-oriented rams than in male-oriented rams. The dense cluster of neurons that comprise the oSDN express cytochrome P450 aromatase. Aromatase mRNA levels in the oSDN were significantly greater in female-oriented rams than in ewes, whereas male-oriented rams exhibited intermediate levels of expression. Because the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus is known to control the expression of male sexual behaviors, these results suggest that naturally occurring variations in sexual partner preferences may be related to differences in brain anatomy and capacity for estrogen synthesis.





George
« Last Edit: 01/05/2006 18:32:56 by another_someone »

*

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 196
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #58 on: 02/05/2006 01:00:00 »
it is possible that priests are pedophiles before they enter the priesthood, and theres a high percentage because they are ashamed. i hadnt really considered that.

i saw an interesting documentary on celibacy that had a long bit on the priesthood. some priests do enter the priesthood at about puberty, and there was confessionals of the grief it caused. however, this might not be a majority, and  it mightve have been pure sensationalism...
 

*

Offline erich

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 91
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #59 on: 10/05/2006 00:24:26 »
I feel this new study says it all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html

no surprise, Like anyone would chose to be gay. But I like this study because one can extrapolate that sexual identity is a sliding scale. That very few of us are exclusively hetero in our hormonal sensitivity, although most of us are in our sexual behavior. That hetero, bi, and homo are very coarse and stigmatizing labels.

Erich J. Knight

Erich J. Knight

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #60 on: 10/05/2006 00:58:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by erich

I feel this new study says it all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html

no surprise, Like anyone would chose to be gay. But I like this study because one can extrapolate that sexual identity is a sliding scale. That very few of us are exclusively hetero in our hormonal sensitivity, although most of us are in our sexual behavior. That hetero, bi, and homo are very coarse and stigmatizing labels.



Not sure it proves that much.

It does prove that there is a correlation between brain chemistry and behaviour – but then, why should there not be – the brain controls behaviour, so any change in behaviour should correspond with a change in brain activity  The report does not seem to make any attempt to show to what degree the change in brain chemistry is genetic or environmental in origin.



George
« Last Edit: 10/05/2006 01:00:15 by another_someone »

*

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 196
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #61 on: 11/05/2006 23:31:13 »
or maybe an inborn succeptability to cancer makes people smokers!

no, im just kidding i agree with anoth_some
 

*

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #62 on: 12/05/2006 01:02:18 »
i still reckon its a genetic flaw :)

Michael

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #63 on: 12/05/2006 01:30:11 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
i still reckon its a genetic flaw :)



In evolution, there is no such thing as an error, only random variation.  That the traits continue at around 10% of the population (very similar to that monitored in sheep), indicates that the genes that create such a predisposition are not of themselves harmful to the species (at least, not at the level it exists).

Whether one takes a religious, or an evolutionary, perspective; to assume it to be an error is to assume that your own design of nature is superior to that which was created by nature or by God (whichever you would prefer).  Nature has no concept of error or correctness, whereas God is supposed to be incapable of error.



George
« Last Edit: 12/05/2006 01:33:23 by another_someone »

*

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #64 on: 12/05/2006 02:13:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
i still reckon its a genetic flaw :)



In evolution, there is no such thing as an error, only random variation.  That the traits continue at around 10% of the population (very similar to that monitored in sheep), indicates that the genes that create such a predisposition are not of themselves harmful to the species (at least, not at the level it exists).

Whether one takes a religious, or an evolutionary, perspective; to assume it to be an error is to assume that your own design of nature is superior to that which was created by nature or by God (whichever you would prefer).  Nature has no concept of error or correctness, whereas God is supposed to be incapable of error.



George


I dont agree with you george and there are lots and lots of people much cleverer than me who also disagree with you

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030516083103.htm  
 I also do believe  (according to peter tatchell) that in the UK the BMA class homosexuality  as a mental illness.



http://www-tech.mit.edu/V113/N62/cancer.62w.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/1998/153-17/15317-18.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282176.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE7D8123FF932A05752C0A963958260

 
quote:
There are a number of different causes of SCID. Each is caused by a different genetic defect, and each develops along a different pathway:

X-linked SCID, the most common type, a genetic flaw damages molecules that allow T cells and B cells to receive signals from crucial growth factors.
ADA deficiency results from the lack of an enzyme called adenosine deaminase (ADA) that helps cells, especially immune cells, to get rid of toxic byproducts. Without ADA, poisons build up and kill the lymphocytes.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25154

 
quote:
WHAT ARE THE FORMS OF LIMB-GIRDLE MUSCULAR DYSTROPHY?

There are at least 13 forms of LGMD, and they’re classified by the genetic flaws that appear to cause them (see “Known Forms of Limb-Girdle Muscular Dystrophy”). By 2005, 11 genes that lead to production of muscle proteins had been implicated as definite causes of LGMD when they’re flawed. MDA research was behind much of the work that identified these LGMD genes.
http://www.mdausa.org/publications/fa-lgmd-qa.html

 
quote:
Some 7.9 million children a year are born with serious birth defects caused at least partly by a genetic flaw, such as heart defects, spina bifida and other neural tube defects, sickle cell anemia and Down syndrome.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11101963/


so gene's which predisposes families  to cancer or Schizophrenia for example are not genectic flaws. They are to me ..we are born to live and any genetic abnormality/mutation which prevents someone from living, doing the most basic thing in life is a flaw.

We are given working reproductive organs for a reason to Procreate and anything which we are born with which prevents us from do this is a flaw and in my opinion gay people are born gay .  

Michael
« Last Edit: 12/05/2006 04:18:08 by ukmicky »

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #65 on: 12/05/2006 05:15:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
I dont agree with you george and there are lots and lots of people much cleverer than me who also disagree with you

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030516083103.htm  
 I also do believe  (according to peter tatchell) that in the UK the BMA class homosexuality  as a mental illness.



http://www-tech.mit.edu/V113/N62/cancer.62w.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/1998/153-17/15317-18.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282176.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE7D8123FF932A05752C0A963958260

 
quote:
There are a number of different causes of SCID. Each is caused by a different genetic defect, and each develops along a different pathway:

X-linked SCID, the most common type, a genetic flaw damages molecules that allow T cells and B cells to receive signals from crucial growth factors.
ADA deficiency results from the lack of an enzyme called adenosine deaminase (ADA) that helps cells, especially immune cells, to get rid of toxic byproducts. Without ADA, poisons build up and kill the lymphocytes.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25154

 
quote:
WHAT ARE THE FORMS OF LIMB-GIRDLE MUSCULAR DYSTROPHY?

There are at least 13 forms of LGMD, and they’re classified by the genetic flaws that appear to cause them (see “Known Forms of Limb-Girdle Muscular Dystrophy”). By 2005, 11 genes that lead to production of muscle proteins had been implicated as definite causes of LGMD when they’re flawed. MDA research was behind much of the work that identified these LGMD genes.
http://www.mdausa.org/publications/fa-lgmd-qa.html

 
quote:
Some 7.9 million children a year are born with serious birth defects caused at least partly by a genetic flaw, such as heart defects, spina bifida and other neural tube defects, sickle cell anemia and Down syndrome.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11101963/


so gene's which predisposes families  to cancer or Schizophrenia for example are not genectic flaws. They are to me ..we are born to live and any genetic abnormality/mutation which prevents someone from living, doing the most basic thing in life is a flaw.

We are given working reproductive organs for a reason to Procreate and anything which we are born with which prevents us from do this is a flaw and in my opinion gay people are born gay .  

Michael



You are confusing a medical perspective with an evolutionary perspective.

What I said was that in evolutionary terms, there is no such thing as a genetic error.  In medical terms, clearly there are; albeit, what is determined to be a genetic error is totally arbitrary, since it depends upon an arbitrary human notion of what is the 'correct' genetic code.  The medical profession could as easily decide that having dark skin is a genetic flaw (perfectly reasonable if they make the assumption that all people should be pale skinned).



George

*

Offline tanian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 31
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #66 on: 13/05/2006 19:55:50 »
I think the argument that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth has been well established here, so I won't waste time reiterating it. I will tell you I believe it to be an erroneous, detrimental, and therefore undesireable aspect of our culture.

I personally believe it to be a mental illness- in exactly the same sense that epilepsy and dyslexia are mental illnesses. I fail to see how anyone could define them as anything else.

That's not to say I have any prejudices- I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

There is an argument that homosexuality is a result of hormone levels in the womb - 'the fight to be male' - and the various issues that come with transforming an embryo into a fully functioning Wayne Rooney (hell he's so straight he sleeps with old hookers). Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia. It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all. To be honest I doubt we will ever know - who in their right mind would pursue funding for the necessary research with todays PC climate? One cannot offend the sexually dyslexic, even in the name of science [:)]
 

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #67 on: 13/05/2006 20:29:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by tanian
Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia.



Testosterone is capable of rewiring the brain (it has been shown that testosterone actually rewires the brains of male songbirds that allows them to sing).

quote:

 It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all.



I don't know of, and would doubt, that there is any correlation between homosexuality and dyslexia.  The areas of the brain effected would be very different.

Nonetheless, I do agree that there are some similarities (although not necessarily in the way you suggest).  The point is that in an illiterate society, dyslexia carries no cost.  In the same way, in a world that is overpopulated, homosexuality carries little cost.  In a world that is capable of massive human expansion, homosexuality would carry significant cost, and hence why most pre-modern societies tended to be intolerant of homosexuality.




George

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #68 on: 13/05/2006 20:33:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by tanian

I think the argument that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth has been well established here, so I won't waste time reiterating it. I will tell you I believe it to be an erroneous, detrimental, and therefore undesireable aspect of our culture.

I personally believe it to be a mental illness- in exactly the same sense that epilepsy and dyslexia are mental illnesses. I fail to see how anyone could define them as anything else.

That's not to say I have any prejudices- I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

There is an argument that homosexuality is a result of hormone levels in the womb - 'the fight to be male' - and the various issues that come with transforming an embryo into a fully functioning Wayne Rooney (hell he's so straight he sleeps with old hookers). Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia. It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all. To be honest I doubt we will ever know - who in their right mind would pursue funding for the necessary research with todays PC climate? One cannot offend the sexually dyslexic, even in the name of science [:)]




Can I ask you something?... For arguments sake, humour me will you ?....If it could be proved that being gay is NOT an illness would you then accept that ?...

Are you saying that like Dyslexia and mental illness's, that homosexuality is then treatable?...

Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do !!....

Is there really some truth that dyslexia can be correlated with homosexuality?


In MY opinion...It sickens me that homosexuality is compared to a mental illness

I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?

I question ones statement when people say they are not prejudiced and then go on to state that gays are gay because they are ill !!

Your final statement where you say one can not offend the sexual dyslexic IS offensive !!....I think in this regard funding for research as to the nature of heterosexuality AND homosexuality could be beneficial so that misguided prejudiced people with their so called 'non prejudiced ' points of view may benefit from the results.

C'mon...to put homosexuality in the same bracket as a mental illness (or any illness) is offensive ! in MY opinion !!

I am not attacking you but asking you to assist me in helping me to unbderstand your statements.


This whole thread has me rasing my arms skyward sometimes


Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 13/05/2006 21:50:31 by neilep »
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #69 on: 13/05/2006 21:23:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Are you saying that like Dyslexia and mental illness's, that homosexuality is then treatable?...



I would question whether dyslexia is either a mental illness, nor treatable.

Dyslexia is to reading what tone deafness is to music.  No-one would suggest that tone deafness is a mental illness.

The only difference between the two is that we have created a society where being able to play and listen to music is optional, but being able to read and write is not.

We can help people to read inspite of their dyslexia, but we cannot cure dyslexia, any more than we can cure tone deafness.



George
« Last Edit: 13/05/2006 21:24:06 by another_someone »

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #70 on: 13/05/2006 21:43:53 »
I would also question whether dyslexia is either a mental illness or treatable......Hmm..well maybe treatable but perhaps not curable  !!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

Offline tanian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 31
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #71 on: 13/05/2006 22:42:47 »
The previous post was written in haste. The hope was to explain, but clearly I failed to do that.

I agree wholeheartedly that 'illness' is the wrong word in this context, and I hope you will accept my apologies.

I do not believe at this time that homosexuality would be, or should be curable, and I regret the inference that I am so bigoted that I would feel that way.

The word I meant to, and should have used, is 'aberration'.

I believe homosexuality to be an aberration. It is a disorder in exactly the way that dyslexia, epilepsy, colour blindness, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and a whole host of other ailments are considered disorders.

If you have issue with either the term 'aberration' or 'disorder' then I suggest, most strongly, that you look them up. They do have very nasty, negative connotations attached to them, and are as a result quite nasty words- but this does not change their literal meanings.

Homosexuality is an aberration. Literally.

As for the question of prejudice- I assure you I am not prejudiced. At all. I think no more of homosexuality than I do of dyselxia, colour blindness or epilepsy. I honestly feel they must in some sense seem a handicap to those affected by these conditions, but hey, as I said, they are no barriers to leading full and productive lives. And nor should they be.

Oh, and the 'sexual dyslexic' thing was simply a play on words. I did intend it to be humorous, but I clearly misjudged the audience. I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone.
 

*

Offline tanian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 31
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #72 on: 13/05/2006 23:06:20 »
quote:
Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do !!....



Thinking about it, some homosexuals must have a truly horrific time of it. Imagine having a totally prejudiced, BNP voting family and then 'coming out' to them. For some it must be a terrible thing, the cause of much distress, heartache and unhappiness. Some homosexuals must certainly wish there was a cure.

quote:
I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?



heterosexuals actually have a choice.
The key word here is choice.
Nature denies homosexuals of a choice.

 
quote:
Your final statement where you say one can not offend the sexual dyslexic IS offensive !!....


Humbly accepted. See above post.  

quote:
I think in this regard funding for research as to the nature of heterosexuality AND homosexuality could be beneficial so that misguided prejudiced people with their so called 'non prejudiced ' points of view may benefit from the results.



Agreed. That is a fantastic idea. I feel quite sure many, many people would benefit from the results. We would be able to adequately raise awareness of such issues in society as a whole, and challenge ignorance everywhere. Even if it comes from homosexuals.
Sexuality is, after all, no barrier to ignorance or bigotry.

To be completely honest, many homosexuals and transexuals would probably opt for a cure if there was one available. It is certainly a damning condemnation of our society that people would feel the need, but it also is a distinct possibility.


"These are my opinions... If you don't like them, I have others"
Groucho Marx
 

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #73 on: 13/05/2006 23:07:26 »
Oh why do you have to go and make me feel all guilty now ? [:)]

I apprecaite your clarification and assistance in helping me understand your point of view.

OK..I can see why you might state that homosexulaity is an aberration...at the same time...there are just as many heterosexual practices (or is is practises?) which could also be deemed an aberration too !......however...I DO understand what you are saying now [:)]

 I know a few gays, in my dialogues that I enjoy with them I can't say I have ever heard them say that their homosexuality in itself has given them reason to feel handicapped in any way.....but that certain aspects of society may treat them as such.

Thank you for clearing your points up. I too apologise for my tone.

I suppose I have a lot of time  for gays and almost feel an affinity because in the capacity that I have of my experience of dealing with them in business and work and social gatherings, I have only ever witnessed from my perspective what is clear to me as a completely normal application towards life, like you and me.  I honestly see them as equal in every respect and it just upsets me that ' they ' should be discussed so.

So, I am bringing personal experience here which perhaps , maybe this thread would then be different if we all had a whole bunch of gay friends too !...and I don't mean the odd acquaintance ![:D]

Thanks again.

Neil


Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

Offline tanian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 31
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #74 on: 13/05/2006 23:53:12 »
No probs neil [:D]

Tell you what tho, there's no way we'd get this hot and bothered if we were talking about bloody colour blindness.

Hey, great... Ok, we've done gays, lets get onto politics and religion...  Hey, did you just spill my pint? What did you say about Neil's mum???

Honestly, its a minefield in here [;)]
 

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #75 on: 13/05/2006 23:54:33 »
quote:
Originally posted by tanian
I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).



In how many species does nature actually promote adoption, no matter what the sexuality of the adoptive parents?

What nature often does support is shared parenting (i.e. parental duties shared between the natural parents and the siblings of the parent – i.e. the child's aunts and/or uncles).  In such a scenario, the actual sexuality of the aunt's and uncles scarcely matter.



George

*

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #76 on: 14/05/2006 01:45:00 »
Neil please dont take any of this the wrong way.

Hi Neil this part isn't in response to you post so please don't take it personally it just that I felt the need to be truthful and let everyone know my personal views on the gay issue as I am going to answer some of your questions.
 
Firstly before I start let me say I have no hatred or dislike for anyone just because they are  lesbian or gay as they harm nobody and because I believe rightly or wrongly gay people are born gay, they are what they are born to be and therefore should not be persecuted in any way.

However I personally find the act of homosexual penetrative sex between two males disgusting and wrong, and therefore find the people who do this act as disgusting and wrong, but the same has to be said about penetrative anal sex between a man and a woman which I find equally abhorrent.

Anal sex is not something that evolution has designed the human body to do and has in fact caused the death of a number of individuals participating in it.  In my view its nasty, horrible, dirty and disgusting and I wouldn't argue against it being outlawed.

Legally anal sex and separately homosexuality has been deemed to be an acceptable practice in todays society, but that doesn't mean it cant be argued or spoken out against as is often done by a large percentage of today's society who still find the idea of it as wrong,they are legally and morally allowed to have those views just like people who agree with it are allowed to have their views and so neither side should be attacked if they wish to politely express themselves. Everyone has a right to there own opinions. im not saying you have [:)]
 
On a side issue in regards to the acceptance of homosexuality, it's weird how women seem to accept it more than men.

Now in answer to some of your questions

quote:
can I ask you something?... For arguments sake, humour me will you ?....If it could be proved that being gay is NOT an illness would you then accept that ?...
____________________




Yes I would, however what is a mental illness. One definition is someone having a personality disorder, which I feel could easily be argued either way in the case of homosexuality. But there are many definitions with different countries having differing views. I  suppose it comes down to your personal view as even The BMA state that

"The term "mental illness" is undefined and its operational definition and usage is a matter for clinical judgement in each case".

These days psychiatrists are however trying to be less speculative and look for medical evidence to aid their diagnosis such as gene and neurotransmitter abnormalities the same things which they believe could be part of the reason for people being homosexual. So why cant homosexuality be a mental disorder, a mental disorder doesn't in my book nessesary mean something bad.

(I thought i would sneak this bit in) On the issue regarding whether genetics has anything to do with people being gay  there has been a number of studies that found just that. There have been a number of studies which found that if one Monozygotic) genetically identical twin was gay then the other had on average 50% chance of being gay too. Whereas (dizygotic twins) Twins  who are not genetically identical had only a 22 % chance of having the identical sexual orientation.  
quote:


Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do!!....
It sickens me that homosexuality is compared to a mental illness
 



It doesn't sicken me because a mental illness doesn't have to be something bad.
One of the reasons homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness in the USA was because of the stigma which comes unfairly with term "mental illness". Many people think that someone with a mental illness is bad for society or someone who should be shunned ,and so they figured therefore that people would then feel that if homosexualarity remained a mental disorder then homosexuals would also recieve some of the prejudeces people recieve through having a mental condition.

but in the real world they believe 1 in 4 people are diagnosed with a mental illness of form or another and most lead normal happy productive lives .

Lots of people do not even know that they have a mental disorder until it is diagnosed and up to then felt like there was nothing wrong with them, they felt normal and even after diagnosis they still felt normal. But what is normal?

Many people live with mental conditions which don’t require treatment but i suppose it would depend on whether the condition was deemed undesirable or detrimental to the sufferer or society and as homosexuals have not been deemed so in the UK  your point is pointless. HA[:)]





quote:
I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?
The population is getting older and not enough children are being born but I'm not qualified to give an opinion on this one so thats as far as i will go. I will leave it to people like George who are better at the stats etc.[:)]

quote:
I question ones statement when people say they are not prejudiced and then go on to state that gays are gay because they are ill !!

Most of us have a little bug (or virus not sure which) running around our brains slowing down our responses and lowering our IQ’s so in theory most of us are ill  [:)].
 



One question if I may my friend[:)] I HOPE WERE STILL FRIENDS.


Given the fact that most of us parents would like our children to find a partner and have children in the future


if the doctors came up with a simple tablet which you only take once which would remove the small chance of any of  your children being gay  and was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.


Michael
« Last Edit: 14/05/2006 02:51:06 by ukmicky »

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #77 on: 14/05/2006 02:44:08 »
Hi Chum (BTW..I really hate you [:D])

In light of no (open) gays on the site....I think I am taking on the role as 'token gay' here. It does make for an interesting discussion.....and I would call it a discussion as I am not treating this as a debate.

Michael (My mate [:)]), I appreciate your words regarding the nature of what a ' mental illness' is...but my point is not just the reference to a mental illness it is the fact that homosexuality is considered a  'condition' in the first place !

  To be a condition it must be something other than what is generally accepted as being the norm.  Now , I know that homosexuality is in the minority but whichever way you label it, to the gays that I know, it would be deemed a prejudicial term as it demonstrates that it is being labelled ' Not Normal '....THAT...is my point.  Now I am not debating the definition of ' normal ' in this case , I am expressing a point of view from the gays perspective.

..So my point is not the ' mental illness' but the labelling in the first place.

I think , unless one is gay, which as you know I am not, or has close association with gays then it is really difficult to see where I am coming from.




Regarding the population growth...what ever the raw data is it makes no difference...there is as far as I know, no Government program to ' treat ' gays on the basis of their effect on the population growth..or on anything for that matter.....in fact, a generation of gays in the majority might do the World .......a world of good !! [:)]




Your pill question. (I’m not too sure if it’s a fair question !!![:)])

CRIPES !!...Could it happen ?...Boy would that be controversial in the very least.

I am not going to be pedantic here and I shall assume that this drug is 100% safe to all parties, OK, got that out of the way.

Good question. ….To be honest…I just can not answer it yet…..my gut instinct tells me that I might want to take the pill…but…the chances of my child being gay is slim anyway,. Y’see I have an issue here as to what is natural…..I truly believe that gay love is natural, it’s as natural as  straight love is in MY opinion….I know in yours, it is not…….I would not wish to participate in gay love but I could if I wanted to, and so could you and everybody else……..

……..so we’re at an impasse really…….and I was thinking before…that everything we say here regarding love, god, sexuality, emotions etc etc.....…well, it’s really all based on personal opinion whereas the sciences are mostly dealt with by facts and data etc. …I realise that is a generic statement but I honestly believe the nature of human behaviour is so wide and varied that we may never understand it and that any ‘ mental ‘ condition is not as clear cut as a scientific experiment where the results will always be the same for example.

Semantics are a real problem…….

I know you may think I have gone off down Tangent Avenue here but I have been letting my mind wander because I really want to answer your question, and I was hoping that by the time I type THIS far I will know what to say….

Michael (my chum ! [:)]), unless faced with the choice in a real situation I don’t think I can ever answer that question with complete honesty. I would like to think that I would let ‘ nature ‘ takes it’s course though I can also see the temptation of taking that pill.

Sorry…best answer I can give…for now…….MATEY !! [:D][:)]

I would not protest against others taking it..I may think negatively though if the reason for consumption of such a pill is based on homophobia though.

...and in case someone asks, I would not be devastated if one of my children was gay....we would talk, discuss at length, but I would never love that child any less.

Michael.....we're mates ! [:D]

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #78 on: 14/05/2006 02:57:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
However I personally find the act of homosexual penetrative sex between two males disgusting and wrong, and therefore find the people who do this act as disgusting and wrong, but the same has to be said about penetrative anal sex between a man and a woman which I find equally abhorrent.

Anal sex is not something that evolution has designed the human body to do and has in fact caused the death of a number of individuals participating in it.  In my view its nasty, horrible, dirty and disgusting and I wouldn't argue against it being outlawed.



I would go along with that, but then I also don't like eating broccoli or cauliflower (and many other foods besides), so I'm not sure why my taste in one thing or another is particularly relevant in the wider scheme of things.

quote:

On a side issue in regards to the acceptance of homosexuality, it's weird how women seem to accept it more than men.



Is that so, or is it that women are more tolerant of male homosexuality, but not so of female homosexuality (i.e. they don't see male homosexuality as a threat because it does not involve women – in the same was as heterosexual men are generally more tolerant of female homosexuality than they are of male homosexuality)?

quote:

It doesn't sicken me because a mental illness doesn't have to be something bad.



I cannot see this.  By definition, an illness is bad (not the person, just the illness itself).

You may talk of a mental condition not necessarily being bad, but the moment to apply the term 'illness' to a condition (mental or otherwise), it must indicate a judgement of something bad happening to a person (it makes no sense to say a person is ill, but there is nothing wrong with them).

quote:

One of the reasons homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness in the USA was because of the stigma which comes unfairly with term "mental illness". Many people think that someone with a mental illness is bad for society or someone who should be shunned ,and so they figured therefore that people would then feel that if homosexualarity remained a mental disorder then homosexuals would also recieve some of the prejudeces people recieve through having a mental condition.

but in the real world they believe e 1 in 4 people are diagnosed with one form or another of mental illness and most lead normal happy productive lives .

Lots of people do not even know that they have a mental disorder until it is diagnosed and up to then felt like there was nothing wrong with them, they felt normal and even after diagnosis they still felt normal. But what is normal?



There is also often controversy about diagnosing anything that is outside the normal.  There is much controversy about over diagnosis of things such as ADHD.
quote:

The population is getting older and not enough children are being born but I'm not qualified to give an opinion on this one so thats as far as i will go.



While this is true, this is far more concerned with a reduction of the number of children born to heterosexual couples, and the small number of people who do not have children because they are homosexual really has little impact on the matter.

N any case, if there is an impact that homosexuality would have on this matter, it would only be female homosexuality, since the number of children born is very little influenced by the number of heterosexually active men, and far more by the number of pregnancies each women has.

Furthermore, in past times, men were often taken out of the pool of sexually active by entering a monastic or priestly life.  We may have very much fewer priests, and almost no monks, but probably about equal numbers of homosexuals.

The main difference in the past was the generally regarded public duty for people in general, and women in particular, to have children.  These days, a very large number of heterosexuals (myself included) do not have children at all.  In the past, that would have been seen as a very selfish lifestyle to undertake.

quote:

If they could find a way too prevent any child of yours from being born gay by giving you a simple tablet which was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



If one could take a pill that would guarantee that your child would be male, then a great number of people in India, China, and no doubt many other countries, would choose to take that pill (there is already evidence of extensive gender based selective abortions in those countries).



George

*

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #79 on: 14/05/2006 03:02:09 »
quote:
If one could take a pill that would guarantee that your child would be male, then a great number of people in India, China, and no doubt many other countries, would choose to take that pill (there is already evidence of extensive gender based selective abortions in those countries).
quote:
they could find a way too prevent any child of yours from being born gay by giving you a simple tablet which was totally safe to take would you take it.
And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



 Dogging the issue george[;)] i said gay not male[:)]



Michael
« Last Edit: 14/05/2006 03:06:19 by ukmicky »

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #80 on: 14/05/2006 03:34:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



My own instinct would be that I would be reluctant to distort the natural spectrum of behaviour unless there is an overwhelming clinical need to do so.  That about 6%-10% or people are homosexual is the natural order of things.  If we distort this, what would be the secondary ramifications?

I would have no problem with one or two people taking such a pill, because that number would not have a population wide statistical significance; but if there was any risk that a substantial proportion of the population would be taking such a pill, and hence creating a distortion in the natural spectrum of sexual orientation in the population, then I would start to be concerned.



George

*

Offline veteran

  • First timers
  • *
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #81 on: 20/05/2006 15:48:34 »
If we are to say homosexuality has something to do with geneiics then sexual intercourse has the same tendercy.like sexual intercourse it has to do with feelings but which are unnatural,thats why i often say gays are inhuman.To become a gay has to do with choice and desire and i believe has nothing to do with genes.People could only be born gays if there was a possibility of choosing during birth which is impossible.to conclude people can't be born gays
 

*

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #82 on: 20/05/2006 15:56:14 »
And that was brought to you by someone who has no idea.

Desire yes, choice no.

Michael
« Last Edit: 20/05/2006 15:57:25 by ukmicky »

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #83 on: 20/05/2006 16:37:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by veteran
If we are to say homosexuality has something to do with geneiics then sexual intercourse has the same tendercy.like sexual intercourse it has to do with feelings but which are unnatural,thats why i often say gays are inhuman.



The terms 'unnatural' and 'inhuman' are meaningless in this context.

If it happens, then it is natural that it should happen (and that it can be observed in other species, such a sheep, only goes to reinforce the notion that it is natural).

To say it is inhuman is to suggest that they are a distinct and separate species to humans.  This clearly in not a supportable position to take.

quote:

To become a gay has to do with choice and desire and i believe has nothing to do with genes.



If taken at face value (and ignoring the contrary evidence), this would imply that the converse, heterosexuality, is also purely a matter of choice, and that neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality is an innate and natural state, but each a deliberate and artificial choice.



George

*

Offline tanian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 31
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #84 on: 21/05/2006 16:25:10 »
quote:

On the issue regarding whether genetics has anything to do with people being gay  there has been a number of studies that found just that. There have been a number of studies which found that if one Monozygotic) genetically identical twin was gay then the other had on average 50% chance of being gay too. Whereas (dizygotic twins) Twins  who are not genetically identical had only a 22 % chance of having the identical sexual orientation.  




To sum up:

There is evidence to suggest that homosexuality is linked to genetic factors.

Conclusion:

People are born gay.

Well now we know.
 

*

Offline ty80

  • First timers
  • *
  • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #85 on: 26/05/2006 11:44:11 »
hope not cause i a have a wife and 2 kids [:D]
 

*

Offline dynamix

  • First timers
  • *
  • 3
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #86 on: 30/05/2006 08:24:37 »
Hi there. Your "open" gay man has arrived (Ooh Matron!)

I've just joined this forum this morning, found this topic, read right through it, and should have been in bed 2 hrs ago.

First of all, thanks to all those people in here who've been rallying to our cause, and to the others, thanks for being honest & not turning this topic into a flame war. It's good to know there's somewhere to have these kinds of discussions sensibly and dispassionately.

I am both gay and a Christian, which may come as a surprise to both sides. I have to say, right now, that my experience has been that people on the Gay scene have been far more intollerant of my faith than Christians have been of my sexuality. More than once, I've heard the words "Here comes the vicar" on entering a gay bar!

Anyway, to give you just a little insight, I always knew I was "different", right from when I was a toddler. It took me until way through puberty to put a name to that "difference", and then maybe another 20 yrs to realise that the name, "gay", was something of an arbitrary pidgeon-hole anyway.

I can honestly say that I don't think I have EVER met anyone who was 100% in their sexuality. By that, I'm not trying to say "the whole world is gay", anymore than I would say "the whole world is straight". I'm simply alluding to the fact that nature, God, science, logic and the world in general doesn't work that way. You can no more find a 100% heterosexual or homosexual than you can find a 100% frictionless surface or a 100% solution of alcohol! In all but the most theoretical of sciences, there is no black or white, merely shades of grey, and in the same way that my dress socks LOOK black, but don't absorb all the radiation of the universe, there are those people who FEEL completely oriented in their sexuality (and for all human purposes probably are).

For those reasons, I tend to agree with the "combined theory" that there are elements of genetics, chemistry, environment and societal influences all stacking up together on this one, and I think we have rather less chance of finding a "unified theory" of sexuality than we do a unified theory of physics!

I'm definately convinced that population has a part to play. In fact, I seem to remember seeing a study, some years ago, which claimed that the instance of homosexuality was statistically higher in closely populated areas. Hence, if you REALLY don't like us, live in a rural area! [;)]

Finally, for those who come from a religious, particularly Jewish or Christian, standpoint, I would recommend you read the book of "1 Samuel" in the Old Testament. The relationship between David and Jonathan is regarded by many gay Christians and Jews as being the template for a wholesome and godly same-sex relationship. I'll be glad to expand on this if anyone is interested, but you really need to read the book first (and give me permission to drift a little off-topic).[:0] (It's notable that you won't find this scripture on the readings list in many fundamentalist churches!)

Anyway, I hope I've given you a bit of food for thought.

I welcome your comments, even if you disagree! [:D]

"What's a unified theory, daddy?"...
"Ask your mother!"
"What's a unified theory, daddy?"...
"Ask your mother!"

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #87 on: 30/05/2006 13:30:03 »
THANK YOU DYNAMIX for your valuable contribution and very interesting post.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !