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quote:Re the buoys: The simplest way to illustrate the problem is to imagine, not buoys, but a single, malleable, looped tube, such as a nosepipe, with sealed sections inside. The 'smooth' exterior would help to solve the problem of an efficient seal at the entrance to the base.However, I just *cannot* accept that the inner buoyancy would be enough to counteract the the level of pressure required to close that bloody seal!Also: how would an inner section of the 'hosepipe' know that it was at a certain depth inside the tank?
quote:Originally posted by NCoppedgeYour last question puzzles me. I don't see how any buoy must "know" where it is; its an inert tool and nothing more... Maybe I miss your point.
quote:On a large scale the machine might produce more than enough power to pump the spilled water back in. This makes sense, because buoys of proportionally larger diameter would have greater buoyancy relative to the size of the guide-wheels.
quote:Friction only effects forces in motion. Try to describe to me how I am "giving this machine a push" in a way that is not recouped when a single buoy passes through the lower seal!
quote:If i we're to get a piece of non sinking fishing line ,the type which is less dense than water and is designed to float and strung it around your apparatus would it revolve ON ITS OWN...
quote:Also if you increase the buoyancy force of the buoys by making the walls thinner increasing the internal void they will then weigh less once out of the water decreasing the level of kinetic energy they will have on the downward drop, so by added on one side your taking from the other.
quote:And increasing the number of buoys wouldnt help either, there will be no extra energy available to the system, even if you had 5,000,000 buoys strung round you apparatus, because any increase in the buoyancy force would be completely opposed by all the extra negative weight and friction you've added to the system.
quote:Originally posted by PrecursorJohnson's Permanent Magnetic Motor. The patent now belongs to a Howard I believe. Both people have created working models. NO the magnets will not lose their magnetism. I've seen that mentioned somewhere and I don't know where they got this but a permanent magnet's magnetic field can only be altered by either changing the temperature of the magnet or by using a more powerfull magnet.
quote:maybe if you did a normal fluid, without magnets, and the balls are passing through some sort of a funnel that will let the ball through one way, but will not let the water out. Any water spilled when the ball goes through can be collected in a drain and brought back to the top somehow. That requires no magnetism, and the only energy used to pump the spilled water could be generated by the wheel istelf, and excess energy will be used in whatever you are powering.
quote:That will not work because as soon as the ball enters the fluid through the one-way valve, it displaces a volume of that fluid which is equal to its own volume. It does so at the point of highest pressure, meaning that it must do work on the fluid equal to that pressure times its volume. Then it floats up, recovering exactly this energy (less viscous drag as well as the mgh figure for the ball, etc) by the time it reaches the top. Result: Zero net energy generated.
quote:Start from the beginning, using only two buoys -- one entering the base of the liquid, and one just about to descend. Would that work? Of course it wouldn't!
quote:Originally posted by PrecursorOk first lets look at the resistance of the buoys being lifted out of the water and pushed up to the seal. If the buoy only has to rise a foot to get to the top of the wheel and get pushed a foot from the lower most point up to the seal that means you have two feet of gravity working against you. Take that two feet and put it up against the (for example sake) 10 feet that the buoys will be travelling down with gravety. If the buoys are spaced so there is one for every foot than you have the weight of 10 buoys being pulled by gravity working against two. The ten wins out. So the two working against you will cancel out two working for you leaving you with eight to be used to over come other frictions within the system. The wheels will rotate on a bearing so only the weight of one buoy being pulled down by gravity can over come both wheels and then some. So you are left with the weight of seven buoys working in unison with the buoyancy of the buoys inside to overcome the resistance to enter the system at the bottom.
quote:Linking multiple buoys is not the same as just having a hollow tube. Each buoy is a seperate entity and will portray buoyancy. Having them linked together allows them to combine their buoyancy. To work together. The reaso why one works and not the other is because with the buoys air is trapped within each buoy where if you just had a hollow tube than the air isn't trapped. Buoyancy exists when you have air trapped and submerged. Without one or the other than you won't have buoyancy.
quote:So that would really only leave the resistance from the fluid to be overcome. The combined buoyancy of the buoys within the fluid should be greater than this resistance. Even if it can't be more and only the same than you still have the weight of the seven buoys being pulled down by gravity on the outside to turn the device.
quote: This leaves the number one resistance. Weight of the water acting upon the seal. It will require x number of buoys submerged at any one time to overcome this resistance. From experiments I did in a pool, I'm convince that this resistance can easily be overcome by the combined buoyancy of multiple buoys in the water. The current that will develop will aid in pulling the next buoy up through the seal.
quote:You canít use gravity to overcome your friction loses as the buoys will then be to heavy to be buoyant. You canít have weight and buoyancy in your system.
quote:Yes it is, your buoys are all connected to one line,one continuous circuit. The only difference is that the buoyancy force is more evenly spread with the tube.Also a bouyancy force is created when the density of the submerged object is less than that of the fluid that it is displacing.
quote:Your sitting their thinking that an air filled buoy or ten air filled buoys will provide enough buoyancy to overcome all the energy loses without measuring or knowing the actual loses involved or at what points your loses are made,if you were look at the design properly you would realize that at every single point of the buoys travel around the system energy is being lost or should i say converted, even their movement through the air will cause the system to lose something, in some places they maybe minor and not measurable by you but add everything together and you would see that in order for the loop of buoys to turn energy would have to be added to the system from an outside source.
quote:This plus the weight of the water pushing against the buoy trying to enter the tank would be enough to halt the system alone. Also a volletball may rise quickly in water but imagine trying to push a volley ball through a open volleyball size hatch in a submarine with ten foot of water above you trying to come in.
quote:Originally posted by Precursorand the distance where the buoys have to go against gravity will be overcome by the increased distance where the buoys are getting pulled down by gravity.
quote:This is another mistake in your reasoning. You forget that both sides of the line contain the same amount of buoys and are therefore equal in 'weight'.
quote:Originally posted by PrecursorWrong. One side is submerged and therefore has buoyancy
quote:You then fill the gaps in the tube between each buoy with the same fluid the buoys are submerged in.
quote:Nope, you are wrong. They are equally balanced. The inner buoys will be *pulling* the exterior buoys down
quote:Don't be silly. That's like a piston. The buoys will have to 'lift' the water as well as themselves.
quote:Originally posted by PrecursorOk first you said that those on the inside and those on the outside would be balanced and therefore not go anywhere. That is wrong.
quote:Now you say that the buoys inside would get held back by the ones on the outside falling.
quote:Oh dear; can you not see that your 'tube' filled with water is almost exactly the same as a 'hosepipe' with sealed inner sections, which I used as an illustration in a previous post? It does not work!!
quote:Nice illustration, btw
quote: So since this ferrofluid resists the force of gravity using the magnets
quote:LOL oh my. So the buoys would be weightless would they? That if they weren't tied down they would float away? I suppose those big steel buoys found in high traffic boating areas must be weightless too if they can float.
quote:Take a 10 lb weight and put it on the bottom of a pool. Add a buoy that has a buoyant force of 3 lbs. The weight will keep the buoy down. Add two more and the weight will keep all three down. Add a fourth and the weight will be lifted to the surface. The buoyancy of the buoys adds together. The weight will be lifted off the bottom with an upwards force of 2 lbs. So no it's not the same thing. The buoys individually will have buoyancy and when linked together they combine their efforts. Yes buoyancy is when you have something that is less dense submerged in something that is more but for the example you gave the difference as to why one would work and not the other is the trapped air. More specifically it's specific gravity. Water has a specific gravity of one; anything will less will float and anything with higher will sink.
quote:First it's called life experience. I live next to the ocean and have been swimming my entire life and I can tell you that the wheels would have such little resistance that the weight of just one buoy would be enough to turn them.
quote:As for trying to open a hatch with ten feet of water above it, as long as that ten feet only has a diameter of two feet then opening the hatch would require some effort but is more than possible.
quote:More specifically it's specific gravity. Water has a specific gravity of one, anything will less will float and anything with higher will sink.
quote:Also look how big your big steel shipping buoys need to be to attain the required internal volume in order for them to have a lower density than the water their displacing due to their dry weight and for your design to revolve any buoys incorporated in it would need to be small and slim line otherwise your going to have a nightmare trying to design the components which the buoys have to pass through or over .
quote:You canít use gravity to overcome your friction loses as the buoys will then be to heavy to be buoyant.
quote:And how many of them large steel shipping buoys do you think will be needed to lift the dry weight of the four in your drawing that are rising and are not in the water
quote:youíre not lifting buoys in water as they are lifting themselves. what you have to lift is the dry weight of the buoys that havenít entered through the seal yet and the buoys which have exited the water but havenít reached TDC yet.
quote: Try it.
quote:I think you will find that the specific gravity of water changes with its temperature.
quote:specific gravity, ratio of the weight of a given volume of a substance to the weight of an equal volume of some reference substance, or, equivalently, the ratio of the masses of equal volumes of the two substances.
quote:by the magnet pulling up on the fluid with more force than gravity pulls down causes the object to not be bouyant. It doesn't need to "stop" gravity or whatever you were suggesting I was saying. In this case the ferrofluid is suspended in the air, more than counteracting the force of gravity, which caused the bouyancy in the first place. To elaborate, lets say you had a cup full of ferrofluid, a magnet on the bottom which pulled the ferrofluid twice as hard as gravity. If you measured the bouyant force, when the cup was upside down, the force would be negative, or the object would move downwards against gravity, if you turned it rightside up, the bouyant force would be three times the usual all upward acting.
quote:with this ferrofluid design of spillage. Bottom line youve got to forces. the magnet and gravity which ever one is stronger is where the ferrofluid would hang out, slanting towards the weaker force, it has no reason to spin or start spinning.
quote:The ferro fluid is going to go everywhere, it will coat the ball and be transfered to places you dont want it lowering the level more and more in the part where the ball needs to rise and jump out.
quote: how can you get the fluid to move through a magnetic shield?