How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?

  • 99 Replies
  • 24354 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Offline thedoc

  • Forum Admin
  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 513
    • View Profile
Anton Lukas  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
13.8 billion years ago the big bang created the universe. There was no space, matter. Time started then.

I do have a lot of questions. Can you answer some of them?

When was matter created?
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
How can something be created from nothing?

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 30/05/2013 12:30:01 by _system »

*

Offline Bill S

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1880
    • View Profile
Hi Anton.

As a non-scientist I will not attempt the first three questions, but I believe the answer to the last one is: "It can't be!". 
In all the things I have read on this subject (those I could understand, anyway) the nothing from which the Universe is supposed to have come, turns out to be something. 
There never was nothing.

*

Offline flr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 302
    • View Profile
 
Quote
the nothing from which the Universe is supposed to have come, turns out to be something.
I think this has to do with a misunderstanding  of the concept of nothing.
I use to thing at the concept of "nothing" as a logical negation of all that it is.

In my opinion something cannot be created from nothing and there is no such thing like "ex-nihilis" creation.
Big-bang is (in my opinion) a remodeling of a previously existing reality.
According to the conservation of energy (or 1st principle of thermodynamics) all that exists existed forever and will exist forever.

If the total energy of universe is zero (negative energy due to gravity compensate exactly the mc^2 energy in things), then zero total energy does not define a state of nothing.

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12351
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
I think it has to do with presumptions. Those change with new findings, creating new definitions. But we all have them, and we all define a universe from it. The hope of science is that it at some stage will be able to give us a coherent answer to it all. That's what science strive for, testing, defining hypothesis's, testing again, defining new ones. In the end we might find a way to describe it that will make sense, but we will probably need new words for it.  With words come new ways to think.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline David Cooper

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1505
    • View Profile
In science, anything that can't be detected is officially regarded as "nothing". That doesn't mean it's a literal nothing, but just that it's beyond the boundaries of what can currently be explored.

*

Offline Pmb

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1838
  • Physicist
    • View Profile
    • New England Science Constortium
In science, anything that can't be detected is officially regarded as "nothing".
That's not quite true. If somethings existance can be inferred from something else then it's called something other than "nothing." For example: quarks are said to exist even thought its impossible to observe a single quark when its not bound to others. Virtual particles are said to exist too but they can't be observed directly.

*

Offline Anton Lukas

  • First timers
  • *
  • 1
    • View Profile
Thank you a lot for your suggestions to my last question regarding "the something from nothing"
But what about the following:

Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Or was all the matter created in the big bang?
Or was part of the engergy converted into matter afterward?
Is the amount of dark energy increasing?


*

Offline insideyourmind

  • First timers
  • *
  • 2
    • View Profile
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Or was all the matter created in the big bang?
Or was part of the energy converted into matter afterward?

When theres so great amount of pure energy and gravity, its impossible for anything to form at that point. When universe gains size and conditions is no longer so extreme, particles begins to form. Amount of matter can be increasing and decreasing but the overall amount of energy in our universe is not increasing or decreasing.
« Last Edit: 28/05/2013 13:46:40 by insideyourmind »

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12351
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
I think you can define a universe several ways. As being 'closed' but closed how? Closed by our limitations of observation and definitions, or 'closed' as in following a geodesic finding it to lead back to where you started? Maybe both are valid descriptions, it all depends on where you stand looking at it.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Anton Lukas  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
13.8 billion years ago the big bang created the universe.
Wrong. The universe has no time of occurrence in contrast to its materialized part. It existed before the alleged big boom which belongs to number of scientific myths.
Quote
There was no space, matter.
Nope. Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter, however was not empty. It had to contain something that we can call primordial pre-matter (ether or dark matter).
Quote
Time started then.
Time belongs to synonyms of motion; change... Time autonomously does not exist. As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.
Quote
I do have a lot of questions. Can you answer some of them?

When was matter created?
Some 14 billion years ago.
Quote
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
No way.
Quote
Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
No. However I would call it ether or dark matter, as energy must have its owner - spontaneously does not exist.
Quote
How can something be created from nothing?
There is no such feasibility.
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline flr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 302
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #10 on: 30/05/2013 18:11:17 »
Quote
Nope. Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter, however was not empty. It had to contain something that we can call primordial pre-matter (ether or dark matter).
..............
Time belongs to synonyms of motion; change... Time autonomously does not exist. As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.

If time is an emerging concept (from motion) rather than a reality in itself, then why not space would be a concept emerging from the order of the things (matter) in universe rather than an 'autonomous' reality?

Quote
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
Quote
No way.

The amount of the matter increased suddenly at some point in the past, but it might be that now it is slowly decreasing because protons may be decomposing (half-time of order 10^33 years according to some theories). Free neutrons can quickly decompose (half-time of order few weeks). The end product is photon, which is though to have zero invariant mass. If so, the universe is slowly loosing mass and in 10^100 years the universe may not have protons to support chemistry.

Note that the total energy should stays the same (I have a strong belief in the conservation of energy, not sure why...), what changes is how energy is carried: by non-zero rest mass objects or by photons.

If the final state of universe will be just a soup of photons, how will time and space be 'defined' in that kind of universe?

« Last Edit: 30/05/2013 18:13:38 by flr »

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12351
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #11 on: 30/05/2013 19:10:39 »
You know, I'm not sure how matter would break down in that final thermodynamical equilibrium?

How?
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline Bill S

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1880
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #12 on: 30/05/2013 21:14:08 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.

Surely (whatever the story), the formation of matter must have constituted a change.  How can you have change without time?
There never was nothing.

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #13 on: 30/05/2013 22:59:55 »
Is the start of time itself a change (going from no time to time in no time at all) ? 

*

Offline Bill S

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1880
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #14 on: 30/05/2013 23:33:09 »
Surely, going from no time to time is a very big change. Suggesting that this could happen "in no time at all" raises some interesting possibilities/questions and would undoubtedly involve QM, which would then have to be a preexisting factor.
There never was nothing.

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12351
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #15 on: 30/05/2013 23:44:30 »
Reminds me of those deep eastern wisdoms dlorde :)
Should be possible to remake into a koan of sorts
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #16 on: 01/06/2013 09:07:07 »

If time is an emerging concept (from motion) rather than a reality in itself, then why not space would be a concept emerging from the order of the things (matter) in universe rather than an 'autonomous' reality?
Time (of what?) is not emerging concept from motion. They are synonyms, feature of matter. I do not see any factor to be responsible for emergence of space. It must be primordial.
Quote
The amount of the matter increased suddenly at some point in the past, but it might be that now it is slowly decreasing because protons may be decomposing (half-time of order 10^33 years according to some theories). Free neutrons can quickly decompose (half-time of order few weeks). The end product is photon, which is though to have zero invariant mass. If so, the universe is slowly loosing mass and in 10^100 years the universe may not have protons to support chemistry.
I don't think so. Some part of ether was converted into matter (ca 14 billion years ago) and the latter is only evolving. The universe is a closed system and nothing can "evaporte" from it.
Quote

Note that the total energy should stays the same (I have a strong belief in the conservation of energy, not sure why...), what changes is how energy is carried: by non-zero rest mass objects or by photons.
I've read (and share this view) that the principle of conservation of energy does not exist.
Quote
If the final state of universe will be just a soup of photons, how will time and space be 'defined' in that kind of universe?
I don't think it could happen. But when you ask about time, you should indicate "time of what?". Space should be understood as the universal "container" of all physical entities.
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #17 on: 01/06/2013 09:29:26 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it. Because matter is in a constant motion; change.

Surely (whatever the story), the formation of matter must have constituted a change.  How can you have change without time?

Well, I assume that the mother of matter was primordial ether. The emergence of matter was preceded by its accidental disturbance (= motion) in its density in some point of the universe. Thus turning ether into matter (initially led to formation of the simplest element, i.e. hydrogen) can be treated as the beginning of material part of the universe, approximated time of which we obviously know.   
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #18 on: 01/06/2013 09:41:06 »
Is the start of time itself a change (going from no time to time in no time at all) ?

Question about birth of time is as logical as questions about start of motion, start of change. You need to be more specific - motion of what?; change of what?

On the other hand, before emergence of materialized part of the universe notion of "time" loses its sense. No motion (of something), no changes (of something) means no time (of something).
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

lean bean

  • Guest
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #19 on: 01/06/2013 19:32:26 »
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it.

If your saying time only started when matter formed, then when did your space exist if there was no time?

Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter,
How do you explain the concept of existence without using the concept of time?

« Last Edit: 01/06/2013 19:36:02 by lean bean »

*

Offline flr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 302
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #20 on: 01/06/2013 22:01:31 »
Some part of ether was converted into matter (ca 14 billion years ago) and the latter is only evolving.


I thought the issue of 'ether' was actually solved by scientists (physics do just well without it).

I would agree with some view that after big bang the energy was converted to matter. Which matter from now on may slowly decompose back to energy (photons).

Quote
1) I've read (and share this view) that the principle of conservation of energy does not exist.

Any rationale for that? A link or something that would justify why total energy of a closed system is not conserved?

Quote
2) The universe is a closed system and nothing can "evaporte" from it.

Note that your sentences 1) and 2) above may be seen as contradicting each other.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2013 22:03:27 by flr »

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #21 on: 02/06/2013 23:15:07 »
As soon as matter was formed (which is another story), time automatically started to accompany it.
Quote
If your saying time only started when matter formed, then when did your space exist if there was no time?
Space is primordial (it's volume unchanged - according to my speculative calculation R of the universe amounts minimum 6.2*10^117 l.y.). 

Space is the essence of the universe. It existed before matter,
How do you explain the concept of existence without using the concept of time?
Time of what you mean? Imagine such a state of nature that there is just space & ether. Time (of something) means motion (of something) / change (of something). Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed), and doesn't undergo changes (unless one time, accidental occurrence that led to emergence of matter). Tell me then how could you measure time of ...(what?). What would mean in such circumstances 5 minutes, 10 years or 100 billion of years. Time loses its sense. It was just such a state of the universe (you may call it timelessness). If there is no motion of (something) / no change (of something) its time = 0
« Last Edit: 02/06/2013 23:16:52 by niebieskieucho »
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #22 on: 03/06/2013 00:00:16 »
Some part of ether was converted into matter (ca 14 billion years ago) and the latter is only evolving.

Quote
I thought the issue of 'ether' was actually solved by scientists (physics do just well without it).
I don't agree with such point of view. No ether = no conductivity. Empty space would be a perfect insulator. Physical entities couldn't then feel themselves (interact). 
Quote
I would agree with some view that after big bang the energy was converted to matter. Which matter from now on may slowly decompose back to energy (photons).
There was no big bang. Matter was formed in other way. Matter is indestructible. It only changes its form.
Quote
1) I've read (and share this view) that the principle of conservation of energy does not exist.
Quote
Any rationale for that? A link or something that would justify why total energy of a closed system is not conserved?
Yeah. There is a material about it, but unfortunately in Polish (nasa_ktp.republika.pl/ZZE_nie_istnieje.html). Example in one sentence: In magnets is asymmetry of forces between poles of attraction and repulsion.
Quote
2) The universe is a closed system and nothing can "evaporate" from it.
Quote
Note that your sentences 1) and 2) above may be seen as contradicting each other.
No, because energy must have its owner. It doesn't roam on its own.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2013 00:02:23 by niebieskieucho »
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline bizerl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 279
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #23 on: 03/06/2013 04:59:15 »
okay, my two cents. I guess this is all philosophical as I was lead to believe that our current mainstream scientific theories are only relevant for the moments after the big bang, and it's only through extrapolation that we are left with a singularity containing the entire known universe.

I've always seen this moment as more a location on a time axis that can be labelled "zero", a bit like the north pole, so saying there was nothing before the big bang is a bit like saying "but what happens past the north pole?"

I've also had the thought that it seems there is a gradual shift from pure energy into pure matter. If the universe is indeed expanding than eventually all the suns will stop burning and all the energy of the universe will be locked up in cold matter. I wonder if this itself will trigger some new epoch on a quantum level as the journey towards absolute zero competes with the uncertainty principle.

Of course the energy is still there, just located at a different point on the time axis.

Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of a physics degree so they are all musings in my head.

*

lean bean

  • Guest
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #24 on: 03/06/2013 13:35:07 »
Time of what you mean? Imagine such a state of nature that there is just space & ether. Time (of something) means motion (of something) / change (of something). Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed), and doesn't undergo changes (unless one time, accidental occurrence that led to emergence of matter).
I got no idea what you mean by ether here? What is this ether that it may be disturbed?
I know of the idea of fundamental particle fields, but these particle fields exist in time.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2013 13:52:08 by lean bean »

*

Offline acecharly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 171
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #25 on: 03/06/2013 15:44:37 »
Some of my thoughts on this as an armchair physisist ....everything was created 13.8 billion years ago apparently but why not 100 billion years ago or any other number in my opinion its always been here its just that it has not allways been ticking, time to me means nothing more than a way to as how a change of state between two points when matter is present. As for is matter still being created then yes it is I'd say scientists have created matter themselves. I think matter/energy are infinite, i fall back to what I said about time why would there be a set amount there's simply as much as there currently is due to whatever happened to make it which I have no ideas for but further to this I can only assume whatever did could easily create another batch at will. Oh and as for this ether stuff sounds a little bit 19th century for me. On this note will leave you all to take aim and shoot me down.

Ace

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #26 on: 03/06/2013 17:12:47 »
What was the question again Ace?

If you're really asking why 13.8 billion years has elapsed since the big bang, the anthropic answer is that it takes roughly that long for suitable conditions to arise to support the development of life, and for life to develop enough to ask the question. You need at least two generations of stars, probably more, so that the heavy elements formed by the early generation(s) of supernovas can seed the planets forming round the later generations. Then you need to wait for the planetary system to quieten down and for a sufficient number of comets to deliver enough water (if that was the mechanism for it). There are probably a number of other requirements, such as development of atmosphere, reduction in the flux of harmful cosmic radiation, and so-on.

If we assume there was something before the big bang, I don't think anyone has the foggiest idea how long 'before the big bang' would have lasted, or if it means anything to ask.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2013 17:18:42 by dlorde »

*

lean bean

  • Guest
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #27 on: 03/06/2013 19:42:16 »
If we assume there was something before the big bang, I don't think anyone has the foggiest idea how long 'before the big bang' would have lasted, or if it means anything to ask.
I can sort of pretend to understand numerous universes (multiverse) being constantly created in time...the past, now and future. And again, I can pretend to understand how space and time started in the standard big bang model.
But, I'm fuddled about Niebieskieucho's ether existing in no time and having the capacity to be disturbed.

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #28 on: 03/06/2013 22:43:33 »
... I'm fuddled about Niebieskieucho's ether existing in no time and having the capacity to be disturbed.
Yup, me too.

*

Offline acecharly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 171
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #29 on: 04/06/2013 11:35:02 »
When we say time didnt exist it probably means this universe had not been born but time was flowing nicely from where ever it came from.

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #30 on: 04/06/2013 20:19:51 »
okay, my two cents. I guess this is all philosophical as I was lead to believe that our current mainstream scientific theories are only relevant for the moments after the big bang, and it's only through extrapolation that we are left with a singularity containing the entire known universe.
Cosmology is based mainly on philosophy, because conditions that led to emergence of matter are not feasible to check or recreate. The mainstream science theory doesn't look well, due to many reasons. Anyway, it's just theory and that is why it can be falsified.
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #31 on: 04/06/2013 20:30:01 »
Time of what you mean? Imagine such a state of nature that there is just space & ether. Time (of something) means motion (of something) / change (of something). Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed), and doesn't undergo changes (unless one time, accidental occurrence that led to emergence of matter).
Quote
I got no idea what you mean by ether here? What is this ether that it may be disturbed?
I mean elementary building block of all forms of matter (called also dark matter) in word, pre-matter. I have already mentioned earlier, that the disturbance of ether was caused by its accidental density in some point of the universe (its of course my own inference).
Quote
I know of the idea of fundamental particle fields, but these particle fields exist in time.
How do you undersand "exists in time"? It could be understood similarly as "exists in motion". Motion of what?
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #32 on: 04/06/2013 20:44:04 »
Some of my thoughts on this as an armchair physisist ....everything was created 13.8 billion years ago apparently but why not 100 billion years ago or any other number in my opinion its always been here its just that it has not allways been ticking, time to me means nothing more than a way to as how a change of state between two points when matter is present.
In my opinion matter emerged accidentaly and it might have appeard earlier, later or never. Similarly as accidental is equality of surface of the Moon disc to the surface of the Sun disk during the Sun eclipse.
Quote
As for is matter still being created then yes it is I'd say scientists have created matter themselves.
It's impossible. Have you got any details? We are "contaminated" with matter and cannot crerate matter.
Quote
I think matter/energy are infinite,
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.
Quote
i fall back to what I said about time why would there be a set amount there's simply as much as there currently is due to whatever happened to make it which I have no ideas for but further to this I can only assume whatever did could easily create another batch at will. Oh and as for this ether stuff sounds a little bit 19th century for me. On this note will leave you all to take aim and shoot me down.
The beginning of the passage is not clear to me. As refers to ether, it's indispensable to make conductivity of space.


Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline Bill S

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1880
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #33 on: 04/06/2013 21:47:23 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.

I have to take issue with that!  I agree that mathematical infinities apply only to mathematics, but how do you defend the statement that in nature infinity does dot exist; or do you mean that multiple infinities do not exist in nature?
There never was nothing.

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #34 on: 05/06/2013 00:06:47 »
Quote from: niebieskieucho
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.

I have to take issue with that!  I agree that mathematical infinities apply only to mathematics, but how do you defend the statement that in nature infinity does dot exist; or do you mean that multiple infinities do not exist in nature?

It's simple. The universe belongs to reality. All real things are imaginable. Infinite universe is unimaginable and that automatically implies infinite universe cannot exist.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2013 00:09:30 by niebieskieucho »
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline acecharly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 171
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #35 on: 05/06/2013 09:07:29 »
The
Quote from: niebieskieucho
Infinities are only in mathematics in nature don't exist.

I have to take issue with that!  I agree that mathematical infinities apply only to mathematics, but how do you defend the statement that in nature infinity does dot exist; or do you mean that multiple infinities do not exist in nature?

It's simple. The universe belongs to reality. All real things are imaginable. Infinite universe is unimaginable and that automatically implies infinite universe cannot exist.

Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2013 09:10:28 by acecharly »

*

lean bean

  • Guest
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #36 on: 05/06/2013 09:54:11 »
how do you understand "exists in time"? It could be understood similarly as "exists in motion". Motion of what?
You make the point of time being movement, yes, I think most know of this idea.
It’s your idea of an ether that doesn’t move which is not so clear to me.

You don’t explain how can you have a ‘accidental occurrence’ or density change when there is no motion to ‘cause’ them in the first place?

Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed),
So you have movment in your ether that causes accidental occurrences or density changes?
« Last Edit: 05/06/2013 10:02:50 by lean bean »

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #37 on: 05/06/2013 11:25:34 »
All real things are imaginable. Infinite universe is unimaginable and that automatically implies infinite universe cannot exist.
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #38 on: 05/06/2013 17:13:53 »
Quote
acecharly:
Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.

Quote
dlorde:
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline acecharly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 171
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #39 on: 05/06/2013 18:03:39 »
Quote
acecharly:
Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.

Quote
dlorde:
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.

All thoughts surrounding an infinite universe are currently conceptual and without questioning we would never know that this will hold true. This conversation actully reminds me of an old Chinese proverb about a frog that lived in a well and who believed that the only sky above was what he could see as he looked up.

*

lean bean

  • Guest
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #40 on: 05/06/2013 19:17:52 »
Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.
Well, I'm having trouble 'conceiving' how your un-moving ether can have an  ‘accidental occurrence’ or density change when there is no motion to ‘cause’ them in the first place?
niebieskieucho
Quote
Ether doesn't move (if not disturbed),

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #41 on: 05/06/2013 23:40:31 »
Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.

Sure, it's a universe of infinite spatial and/or temporal extent, i.e. it never ends spatially and/or temporally. Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?

On the other hand, I can imagine plenty of things that are not real, so I'm not sure where your 'imaginable' assertion gets you. Oh, yes, you didn't respond to my previous point: were black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies real before people could imagine them?

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12351
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #42 on: 08/06/2013 22:37:26 »
Turn it around.

How would you define 'finity'?

That's our old type of definitions, the ones we're used to, and the ones that make the most sense intuitively in our daily lives. Is nature a finite phenomena? Or are nonlinearities and infinities nature? To me the 'old ways' are our box,  comfortable and safe, but?

When you catch a ball, how do you calculate its path?
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline evan_au

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4319
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #43 on: 09/06/2013 11:13:59 »
Quote
When was matter created?
Is the amount of matter still increasing?
There was a Steady State theory of the universe, which suggested that matter is continually being created to fill the void as the universe expands. There were experiments done to try to find these bits of matter that popped into existence, without success; essentially the same experiment is being continued in an attempt to find evidence for dark matter. But discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation effectively killed the Steady-State theory, since it pointed to something that happened in the past, which is not happening in the same way today.

Quote
Is the amount of dark energy increasing?
Various theories try to explain dark energy - some of them predict extremely high levels of it in every cubic centimeter of space.
As noted in other posts, energy levels tend to decrease to the lowest possible level, over time.
This suggests that the level of dark energy is decreasing over time, and showing itself in the increased acceleration we have seen in the expansion of the universe.

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #44 on: 09/06/2013 14:47:41 »
... the level of dark energy is decreasing over time, and showing itself in the increased acceleration we have seen in the expansion of the universe.

So dark energy is 'holding the universe together' ?  by gravity or by some other means?

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #45 on: 09/06/2013 22:02:00 »
Quote
acecharly:
Would it make sense that this could be because you too are part of the universe to which that reality belongs and so find it difficult to comprehend anything outside of what we already know from here within. If a man was raised  inside a room with no windows and locked doors he too would probably think like this.

Quote
dlorde:
That seems like a very particular definition of 'imaginable'. Black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies weren't imaginable until the relevant fields of knowledge provided a framework for their imagination, but they were still real. People have imagined an infinite universe since ancient times; it may or may not be real.

Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.

Quote
All thoughts surrounding an infinite universe are currently conceptual and without questioning we would never know that this will hold true.
I see that you cannot sketch the universe, regardless of scale and accuracy. I have no doubt. Infinite universe does not exists. BTW what would it mean? Constantly expanding in its finiteness? How do you understand infiniteness in nature? Could you construct asymptotic ski jumping hill?
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #46 on: 09/06/2013 22:14:55 »
Well, I'm having trouble 'conceiving' how your un-moving ether can have an  ‘accidental occurrence’ or density change when there is no motion to ‘cause’ them in the first place?
Ether, which has no inner structure, doesn't perform spinning motion. Nevertheless, it is no quite immobile. It's motion is oscillation. Scientific literature says that ether is immobile as a mass in contrast to spinning / rotating matter.

Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #47 on: 09/06/2013 22:38:36 »
Really?  Any real thing you can conceive, consequently sketch ignoring the scale and accuracy (close in a solid). If you claim you can imagine infinite universe, could you then outline it? If so, I will admit you're right.
Quote
Sure, it's a universe of infinite spatial and/or temporal extent, i.e. it never ends spatially and/or temporally.
I did not ask you for a verbal description, only a sketch.
Quote
Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?
No problem. Any of them I can sketch as a sphere.
Quote
On the other hand, I can imagine plenty of things that are not real, so I'm not sure where your 'imaginable' assertion gets you.
It doesn't matter. The discussion is on reality.
Quote
Oh, yes, you didn't respond to my previous point:
Sorry. I probably overlooked. Now I am on vacation, so may respond irregularly.
Quote
were black holes, supernovae, the big bang, and galaxies real before people could imagine them?
Yes, but it has nothing to do with a lack of imagining of them. BTW big bang never occurred. The BB belongs to number of scientific myths.
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline niebieskieucho

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 30
    • View Profile
    • Independent Research
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #48 on: 09/06/2013 22:54:51 »
Turn it around.

How would you define 'finity'?
In word "limes", e.g. any object has finite number of atoms.

That's our old type of definitions, the ones we're used to, and the ones that make the most sense intuitively in our daily lives. Is nature a finite phenomena? Or are nonlinearities and infinities nature? To me the 'old ways' are our box,  comfortable and safe, but?
[/quote]
Not quite. There is no need to use intuition by dividning eg 10 / 3 or calculating pi to realize that they are never ending calculations.
Quote
When you catch a ball, how do you calculate its path?
This calculation is performed by brain. Faster than solution of the equation.
Those who claim that understood Relativity, automatically claim that understood nonsense

*

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1452
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Re: How did the big bang happen? How can it come from nothing?
« Reply #49 on: 10/06/2013 00:14:00 »
I did not ask you for a verbal description, only a sketch.
OK - you weren't specific; a sketch can mean an abbreviated verbal description.
Quote
Quote
Can you sketch a photon? a black hole? the universe itself?
No problem. Any of them I can sketch as a sphere.
Really?? If you feel a sphere qualifies as a sketch of those items, I'll give you a blank (or uniformly shaded) sheet of paper as a sketch of an infinite universe.