An interesting pattern

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Offline thebrain13

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An interesting pattern
« on: 16/07/2006 01:05:07 »
I've identified a pattern between four terms. Mass, Time, distance, and (     ). Does anybody think they know what goes here?

these three are all affected by relative motion by the exact same amounts, and I propose a fourth should too.

                                    Hints
None of these things mean anything without the fourth.
The fourth means nothing without those three.
Maybe its responsible for the cause, at least how I see it for redshifts. Read my post on redshifts if you want.
Its not energy.

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #1 on: 25/07/2006 00:59:40 »
You've got my attention, Brain - so what IS the missing term?

The only guess I can think of is electric charge. But it's too late for me to be able to work out if that's a sensible suggestion or not.  (Come to think of it, I don't have the knowledge to be able to work that out even if I was awake![:(])
« Last Edit: 25/07/2006 01:00:02 by Solvay_1927 »
 

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #2 on: 26/07/2006 00:01:56 »
Im not telling unless someone is willing to guess.

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Offline Mad Mark

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #3 on: 26/07/2006 13:37:59 »
Gravity?

Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.
Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #4 on: 26/07/2006 22:30:55 »
Direction?
 

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #5 on: 27/07/2006 01:27:31 »
Ill give another hint. Mass exists without gravity, time exists without gravity, distance exists without gravity.

 Mass exists without direction, time exists without direction, distance exists without direction.

But mass, time, and distance dont exist without this(      ) proving their inevitable relation. And neither one of those three terms mean anything without each other.

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Offline Mad Mark

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #6 on: 27/07/2006 18:43:12 »
Ok how about Inertia?

Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.
Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #7 on: 27/07/2006 22:39:11 »
not inertia

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Offline monkey

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #8 on: 28/07/2006 00:23:36 »
I think I know but I won't spoil it for others just yet.
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #9 on: 29/07/2006 02:58:37 »
err "Mass exists without gravity" how


Michael

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #10 on: 29/07/2006 04:04:55 »
Mass is a measure of an objects inertia. gravity doesnt change that. The titanic takes a lot of energy to get moving even in empty space in the absence of gravity. It has a lot of inertia

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #11 on: 29/07/2006 11:19:44 »
Stop bickering and get back to the point.  To be precise, newtons are a measure of force. and weight is  the force on a mass (which is a measure of the inertia of an object) in a gravitational field.

Also under extreme conditions it IS possible for a gravitational field to create mass. That is basically what the Hawking radiation from a black hole is all about.  normal sized black holes are only likely to emit  massles electromagnetic radiation but as they evaportate, black holes will emit massive particles.

There is even some work on the possibility of high energy collisions creating mini black holes which could emit Higgs bosons (generally considered to be the source of inertia).

now lets get back to the original question.  I must admit that I cannot immediately think of a suitable candidate for another "dimension" other than Mass Length and Time because as far as I know everything can be expressed in terms of these three fundamentals.  In fact one ancient lecturer when I was at university suggested that we could go even further and get rid of mass by bringing the gravitational constant into the equation and expressing absolutely everything purely in terms of length and time.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 29/07/2006 11:23:25 by Soul Surfer »
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #12 on: 30/07/2006 22:47:22 »
TO THE BRAIN

Hmmm  i will go through it and have a look and remove some of them if you promise to reveal at some stage the answer to your question even if nobody comes up with an answer to your question.

note

Even though i feel their is an inaccuracy or an Ambiguous statement in the brains 3rd entry,this thread  has had some of its posts removed on the request of the brain in order to keep it on topic.

Therefore i apologize to everyone who has had anything removed or edited  in order to grant the brains request.

PS. This is not something which i would normally consider doing however on this occasion i will do so in order to keep it on topic due to my wish to see the answer to the question posed by the brain.

Michael
« Last Edit: 30/07/2006 23:43:37 by ukmicky »

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #13 on: 31/07/2006 00:01:32 »
Thank you ukmicky, I will post my thoughts soon, just let monkey guess first.

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Offline Mad Mark

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #14 on: 26/07/2006 13:37:59 »
Gravity?

Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.
Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #15 on: 26/07/2006 22:30:55 »
Direction?
 

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #16 on: 27/07/2006 01:27:31 »
Ill give another hint. Mass exists without gravity, time exists without gravity, distance exists without gravity.

 Mass exists without direction, time exists without direction, distance exists without direction.

But mass, time, and distance dont exist without this(      ) proving their inevitable relation. And neither one of those three terms mean anything without each other.

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Offline Mad Mark

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #17 on: 27/07/2006 18:43:12 »
Ok how about Inertia?

Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.
Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #18 on: 27/07/2006 22:39:11 »
not inertia

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Offline monkey

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #19 on: 28/07/2006 00:23:36 »
I think I know but I won't spoil it for others just yet.
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #20 on: 29/07/2006 02:58:37 »
err "Mass exists without gravity" how


Michael

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #21 on: 29/07/2006 04:04:55 »
Mass is a measure of an objects inertia. gravity doesnt change that. The titanic takes a lot of energy to get moving even in empty space in the absence of gravity. It has a lot of inertia

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #22 on: 29/07/2006 11:19:44 »
Stop bickering and get back to the point.  To be precise, newtons are a measure of force. and weight is  the force on a mass (which is a measure of the inertia of an object) in a gravitational field.

Also under extreme conditions it IS possible for a gravitational field to create mass. That is basically what the Hawking radiation from a black hole is all about.  normal sized black holes are only likely to emit  massles electromagnetic radiation but as they evaportate, black holes will emit massive particles.

There is even some work on the possibility of high energy collisions creating mini black holes which could emit Higgs bosons (generally considered to be the source of inertia).

now lets get back to the original question.  I must admit that I cannot immediately think of a suitable candidate for another "dimension" other than Mass Length and Time because as far as I know everything can be expressed in terms of these three fundamentals.  In fact one ancient lecturer when I was at university suggested that we could go even further and get rid of mass by bringing the gravitational constant into the equation and expressing absolutely everything purely in terms of length and time.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 29/07/2006 11:23:25 by Soul Surfer »
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #23 on: 30/07/2006 22:47:22 »
TO THE BRAIN

Hmmm  i will go through it and have a look and remove some of them if you promise to reveal at some stage the answer to your question even if nobody comes up with an answer to your question.

note

Even though i feel their is an inaccuracy or an Ambiguous statement in the brains 3rd entry,this thread  has had some of its posts removed on the request of the brain in order to keep it on topic.

Therefore i apologize to everyone who has had anything removed or edited  in order to grant the brains request.

PS. This is not something which i would normally consider doing however on this occasion i will do so in order to keep it on topic due to my wish to see the answer to the question posed by the brain.

Michael
« Last Edit: 30/07/2006 23:43:37 by ukmicky »

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #24 on: 31/07/2006 00:01:32 »
Thank you ukmicky, I will post my thoughts soon, just let monkey guess first.

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #25 on: 01/08/2006 00:04:02 »
If you really must have an answer.  The only thing that I can think that fits your requirements is space itself.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #26 on: 09/08/2006 08:08:23 »
Maybe it's Awareness?
If anything (mass, space, time, energy) existed without Awareness, who could prove it would exist? No one.
You can get rid of everything, but the last thing you are left with is...Awareness.

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Offline Mjhavok

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #27 on: 09/08/2006 08:39:36 »
Is an answer going to be provided to this question by thebrain13?

Steven
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Offline lightarrow

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #28 on: 09/08/2006 16:58:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mjhavok

Is an answer going to be provided to this question by thebrain13?

Steven



Yes.

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Offline Mjhavok

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #29 on: 13/08/2006 18:37:08 »
Is the answer "Motion"

Steven

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Steven
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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #30 on: 13/08/2006 20:31:37 »
Motion is close, energy is close but not quite.

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Offline Mad Mark

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #31 on: 14/08/2006 00:19:52 »
Is the answer Angular momentum.

Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.
Tomorrow lies outside our universe without it there would be no tomorrow.

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Offline Mjhavok

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #32 on: 14/08/2006 03:14:53 »
Is the answer Inertia?

Steven
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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #33 on: 14/08/2006 04:44:43 »
not angular momentum or inertia

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Offline Mjhavok

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #34 on: 14/08/2006 17:34:13 »
Space?
Steven
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Offline artistic

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #35 on: 16/08/2006 16:15:42 »
I don't know but is it speed or force?

Don't make me angry, I have advanced "Green Technology".
 

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #36 on: 17/08/2006 11:55:40 »
Is it c, the speed of light?

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #37 on: 20/08/2006 04:42:13 »
Artistic got it, the answer is force. A couple days ago I gave a very lengthy description of why, but I accidentally erased it, now im procrastinating rewriting it. I'll answer thoroughly eventually, with the proper explanation.

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #38 on: 24/08/2006 01:29:46 »
I'd be interested to see your answer, Brain. Personally I can't see why Force is the only possible answer - it's just a quantity derived from the other 3 dimensions (mass, length & time - which is also true of energy, or charge, or momentum, ...)
 

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Offline syhprum

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #39 on: 24/08/2006 19:18:32 »
I always thought that all units could be defined in terms of LMT raised to various powers, nothing else is needed or exists

syhprum
syhprum

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #40 on: 24/08/2006 01:29:46 »
I'd be interested to see your answer, Brain. Personally I can't see why Force is the only possible answer - it's just a quantity derived from the other 3 dimensions (mass, length & time - which is also true of energy, or charge, or momentum, ...)
 

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Offline syhprum

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #41 on: 24/08/2006 19:18:32 »
I always thought that all units could be defined in terms of LMT raised to various powers, nothing else is needed or exists

syhprum
syhprum

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Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #42 on: 24/08/2006 01:29:46 »
I'd be interested to see your answer, Brain. Personally I can't see why Force is the only possible answer - it's just a quantity derived from the other 3 dimensions (mass, length & time - which is also true of energy, or charge, or momentum, ...)
 

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Offline syhprum

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Re: An interesting pattern
« Reply #43 on: 24/08/2006 19:18:32 »
I always thought that all units could be defined in terms of LMT raised to various powers, nothing else is needed or exists

syhprum
syhprum