How does a 'field' become observer dependent?

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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1150 on: 18/07/2014 16:43:16 »
You really need to look into this. Once behaviorism was about pure logic of 'change'. Today it encompass a lot more, and Skinner may turn in his grave, not that it bother me, thinking of his daughter :)
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« Last Edit: 18/07/2014 16:45:36 by yor_on »
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1151 on: 18/07/2014 16:48:21 »
It depends doesn't it?

What someone outside thinks, and what those inside describe it as?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1152 on: 18/07/2014 16:52:46 »
So, what is justice, and a fair deal?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1153 on: 18/07/2014 17:02:20 »
I'm slightly inconsiderate here, but I can't help but remembering the experiments in where a factory got repainted, and so increased the 'productivity'? Depends on what you think you're here for, doesn't it? To increase productivity? To reproduce?

What is spirituality?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1154 on: 18/07/2014 17:05:53 »
You really want to put your daughter into a weather insulated box yourself? I don't know, the concept disturbs me.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1155 on: 18/07/2014 17:24:39 »
To define existence as we are here because we are here invalidate any science. It's a mirror to defining such as existence has no purpose, and no meaning. you might call it a proof for the futility of life.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1156 on: 18/07/2014 17:26:27 »
invalidate any science because it ultimately invalidate logic to me. At least the logic I use, in where things do have a purpose, and a meaning, following causality.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1157 on: 18/07/2014 17:30:25 »
the whole idea of a complexity building inside a arrow, gives science a meaning. It tells us that it is worthwhile wondering about the universe, and to try to decipher its logic. and the life you live now should tell you the same thing, assuming you live at the right place naturally. A concentration camp is not the place to feel optimistic in, neither I would say, is a dictatorship.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1158 on: 18/07/2014 17:32:05 »
Yeah, what is spirituality? And do you think you can give it a logic?
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1159 on: 18/07/2014 19:21:42 »
Pete, I think you should take your considerations to a moderator instead. And let them decide what should be deemed appropriate for TNS. I would prefer if you didn't use this thread for it, it easily becomes a flame war :) Discussing (and doing so in the exactly same thread, nota bene) whether such should be allowed to exist or not, although it would make a slightly comic sense to me, if we all would do so, in a same thread we want to dispose of. As for the rest of it I really hope the universe is big enough for both of us? :)
It only becomes a flame war when you start insulting me. Moderators only step in when people are breaking rules. I'm not saying you're breaking a rule. I'm saying that when you do this in science forums it makes it hard to read and you become disruptive and that shows little or no concern for your fellow posters. This is a discussion forum and not your own personal blog. Therefore I have every right to say this on this forum, whether you like it or not. It's your total lack of concern for every single person on the forum that bothers me and your total lack of caring how people feel about it. Shame on you.

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1160 on: 18/07/2014 23:21:15 »
Sorry Pete, no meaning to insult anyone here. When it comes to this thread it's no big thing? I use it to ponder about what I find strange, and interesting. As for the rest of your views, I don't know what to say really. It's you reading me, then complaining that you read me? Don't read me, and the irritation should pass.
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Thinking about it. I don't really know how to define a blog. Everyone starting a thread might be said to start a blog, the rest being a discussion on what this person thought about something? If you look at the latest blog I linked too, I think I find it just as lively as any discussion I've meet on TNS, for example? With the 'author' of the idea/question/whatever also arguing, if now just ever so slightly, for his views. Probably there is some nice definition about it, it's just me missing it :)
« Last Edit: 18/07/2014 23:30:39 by yor_on »
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1161 on: 18/07/2014 23:44:17 »
Anyway Pete, you want this writing to disappear, then I still think that it is the moderators ire you need to invoke. As for this blog, as you call it? It may continue, it may disappear. Sometimes people comment and then there's what you might call a discussion? As it could be seen to be now too, although not on what I was writing about specifically?

Three major choices I think?

1. Keep arguing your view in this thread, until someone notice :)
2. Or, discuss it with the moderators, and let their decision rule.
3. Or just let it go, and do the stuff that really interest you instead.
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And it's not meant to insult you, it's just that I find this discussion to be at the wrong place. If my writing is at fault in, or for,  some fashion, then I expect moderators to be the ones reacting. That's why they are here. If it is personal in some way you had the possibility to post personally, one option that you chose to ignore, right?

That I read as you want it into the open, so to speak, a debate, using this thread as an example, correct? Maybe open your own thread on forum policies, and where you consider them misused, could be a further option here?
« Last Edit: 19/07/2014 00:05:15 by yor_on »
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1162 on: 19/07/2014 00:41:31 »
I think it's a interesting subject, spirituality. The question to me is whether it could be applied as a logic? Why I'm asking this is because I consider almost everything I know of to have some sort of logic. Even a entanglement have a logic, it may not make the best of sense to me, but the logic is there to be tested, and that at least makes sense :)

And if we look at behaviorism before and the one we see today, I think I would like to define the type I see today as a more 'ethical behaviorism', taking into consideration a lot of human parameters that the old type didn't really find relevant. As for example what cost a society the most, being homeless for example, maybe also self-medicating, stealing to survive. Or a society that tries to plan for it not to go that far. A society whose answer to deviations of the social norm is prison, or rehabilitation.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1163 on: 19/07/2014 00:59:18 »
The point is that the logic that didn't exist before, do exist now. And it makes sense, both economically and humanly. So, can the same be true for what we think of as spiritual questions? That I think was what Nury in that blog I linked to, at least partially, was wondering about. If there behind everything we do and think, compassion and empathy, actually exist a logic.

And if there is, is it also cost-beneficent?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1164 on: 19/07/2014 15:34:57 »
That question also depends on your view of what society should include naturally. If you only include your peers the question becomes moot, as they all should be in a similar situation to you. If you on the other hand include everyone living in some community where you exist? Or taking it a step further, everyone sharing a same nationality?

And if you take those steps? Well :) I believe we should be getting closer to becoming, what I call, care takers.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1165 on: 20/07/2014 12:16:07 »
I took up entanglements as a example. Doing it I started to wonder exactly how Einstein came up with this notion, and how we from his thoughts on it got so far as we actually have done? Entanglements are spooky :) I know the history, I think? But I keep forgetting, so I decided to try to track it down once more.

Anyway The Spooky truth.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1166 on: 20/07/2014 13:29:51 »
The problem, for me, is that entanglements are so closely related to the debate between Bohr and Einstein, on the reality of it. Einstein could not accept the idea of spooky action at a distance. He meant that is collided with a reality in where you find action and reactions track-able, and where you have physically meaningful limits for it. He, as me, seem to have considered QM to be a statistical interpretation of reality, that still needed to be filled in to become a 'realistic theory'.

It may be that his demands on what should be deemed realistic differed from my thoughts though. As my definition of what I see as 'locality' does? He most probably would give me a real lecture if he ever read me :)

The EPR (Einstein Poldolsky Rosen) papers rests on two assumptions, as I gather.

Separability and locality:  That if two systems are separated in a space, one must assume that each one exist separately from the other, ideally without influencing each other. From that follows that a measurement on one must be independent of the other.

For a better description, with links, I think you should read Einstein on the Completeness of Quantum Theory.

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1167 on: 20/07/2014 14:27:05 »
But that's where I find history lacking. Because the EPR paper is a reaction on what the, then newfangled QM theory, was predicting. It makes little sense to start at the EPR papers, although that is what you will find if you search the net.  Schrödinger's cat in a box was a subsequent try for a intuitive description of one side of what the EPR paper discussed, not any reason why the EPR paper came to be.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1168 on: 20/07/2014 14:28:54 »
So, what started the idea of entanglements?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1169 on: 20/07/2014 14:46:45 »
Well, it's a lot of things, studying the very small, that clashes with how we normally expect the world to behave. Maybe we should look at the 'Copenhagen model'?

"there are several basic principles that are generally accepted as being part of the interpretation:

1.    A system is completely described by a wave function, representing the state of the system, which evolves smoothly in time, except when a measurement is made, at which point it instantaneously collapses to an eigenstate of the observable that is measured.

2.    The description of nature is essentially probabilistic, with the probability of a given outcome of a measurement given by the square of the modulus of the amplitude of the wave function. (The Born rule, after Max Born)

3.    It is not possible to know the value of all the properties of the system at the same time; those properties that are not known exactly must be described by probabilities. (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle)

4.   Matter exhibits a wave–particle duality. An experiment can show the particle-like properties of matter, or the wave-like properties; in some experiments both of these complementary viewpoints must be invoked to explain the results, according to the complementarity principle of Niels Bohr.

5.   Measuring devices are essentially classical devices, and measure only classical properties such as position and momentum.

6.   The quantum mechanical description of large systems will closely approximate the classical description. (This is the correspondence principle of Bohr and Heisenberg.) "
« Last Edit: 20/07/2014 14:48:20 by yor_on »
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1170 on: 20/07/2014 15:12:09 »
Seems it should be 1.
Don't you agree?

"A system is completely described by a wave function, representing the state of the system, which evolves smoothly in time, except when a measurement is made, at which point it instantaneously collapses to an eigenstate of the observable that is measured."

Think of down converting a 'photon' by splitting it in a prism, into two photons of half the original energy. (beam splitter). Then the question becomes what you consider to be the 'system' here naturally, but we just consider the original photon split into two here.

But we need something more, we need some principle that explains why, for example, the spins must be opposite, don't we?

Conservation laws?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1171 on: 20/07/2014 15:17:53 »
And yes, I think we also need HUP? Or could we do without that?

"It is not possible to know the value of all the properties of the system at the same time; those properties that are not known exactly must be described by probabilities. (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle)"

Because that is what defines the 'super position' of the entangled system, before a measurement, all as I think.

Indeterminacy.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1172 on: 20/07/2014 15:21:18 »
But we can say some things about the 'system' of two photons, with certainty, can't we?
Opposite spins.

where does that come from?
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1173 on: 20/07/2014 15:40:04 »
But we can say some things about the 'system' of two photons, with certainty, can't we?
Opposite spins.

where does that come from?
Nature seeking balance!
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1174 on: 20/07/2014 15:53:21 »
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1175 on: 20/07/2014 16:03:46 »
Now imagine that you have a way to force the spin of one photon. You can choose it behave one specific way, 'up' or 'down'.

That's where the magic treads in.

Because, if entanglements are correct, then the other particle must adapt to this situation, even though it is spatially separated. And the common consensus is that it must do so 'instantly'
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1176 on: 20/07/2014 16:05:11 »
you don't need entanglements to define why the spin is opposite. But you do need it for this.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1177 on: 20/07/2014 16:09:08 »
so what is a entanglement? A result of probability, resting on the experiment and angular conservation? I don't see how I can restrict it to just conservation laws, although those is what defines this spin in all situations described.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1178 on: 20/07/2014 16:15:45 »
And so it becomes as you say Ethos, a question of a equilibrium, that ignoring normal information limits ('c') demands a balance. And it doesn't matter what we do, as far as I know? The spin(s) will be opposite each other..
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1179 on: 20/07/2014 16:17:09 »
Then again, how many spins exist? Is there only 'up' and 'down' to it? Or is that a simplification from the experiments we do.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1180 on: 20/07/2014 16:26:05 »
What is “spin” in particle physics? It's not the one I was thinking of originally, but it is good.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1181 on: 20/07/2014 16:32:25 »
Theory of strongly correlated systems. Just because I can :) And find it a interesting read. I'm not entirely sure how it connects but it should, in some way.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1182 on: 21/07/2014 01:59:40 »
There is another more accurate description of how it works. That one builds on the probability of a spin being 'up or 'down'. It has a 50% probability any which way, and we have no way of knowing which one it will be unless we measure. The only thing you can say with certainty is that the others particles spin must be the opposite.

Now, that is close to what I imagined before, but not exactly the same to me. But the ideas defining a entanglement today, also use so called 'weak interactions/experiments' presumed to leave this wavefunction representing the 'system' of two photons alone, without destroying it. So I think me free to apply a thought up description of what I find mysterious, and so let the spin 'change instantly' for the far away particle.

It's not perfectly correct to say that it change though, as we have a 50% probability of it already being in that state. But we know that it always must fall out that way, forcing the first spin. I think that is mysterious enough for me :)

We have two ideas here. Weak experiments, and wave functions. We also have two ideas describing why the experiment falls out as it does. Conservation laws and 'entanglements'.

When it comes to conservation laws I automatically think of 'The Heritage Of Emmy Noether.'
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1183 on: 21/07/2014 02:25:57 »
This one may be more easily digested, and somewhat funnier. I especially enjoy 'because we are scientists' :)

Symmetries of the Laws of Physics and Noether's Theorem. 

It's truly weird that she didn't get a Nobel prise for it. You could call it a definition what makes a 'relativistic container' I think? And I will have to argue my way around this, sooner or later :) then again, there are more ways than one to define a universe, isn't there? In a good theory all correct descriptions should fit, no matter from where they come.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1184 on: 21/07/2014 02:37:20 »
In a way I do, by defining it as you must find a local equivalence, using that as a proof for why the universe must behave equivalently in all 'points' (locally defined). If it wasn't that way the universe would be different.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1185 on: 24/07/2014 19:49:03 »
So what is the meaning of life?
I don't know, do you?

To have a laugh, with some friends, before it's too late?
To come?

To kill?

What is it?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1186 on: 24/07/2014 19:51:08 »
I use an idea of complexity, but that isn't about individuals.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1187 on: 24/07/2014 19:51:55 »
To care?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1188 on: 24/07/2014 19:58:46 »
Do you care?
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1189 on: 24/07/2014 19:59:55 »
Either that, or we're lost.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1190 on: 24/07/2014 20:05:45 »
Lost because we all need to be loved, not because we are going to revolutionize the world. Not because we have the answer to 'free energy'. Not even because we're going to leave a lot of money behind us. Just because we all need unrequited love, at some time in our life, to know that someone finds us worthy of living.

Weird stuff, isn't it?
=

Thinking a little, this day after :)

Unconditional love might be the better word here. Unrequited sounds a little too devoid of reciprocity to me, as I read myself. You should take this to heart. One should never read oneself the day after.
« Last Edit: 25/07/2014 11:57:05 by yor_on »
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1191 on: 24/07/2014 20:06:57 »
but we will response, if the love is without demands.
That is humanity.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1192 on: 24/07/2014 20:09:39 »
And those without this, will be marked, by themselves, and others.
We're a pack animal.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1193 on: 24/07/2014 20:18:42 »
So you don't think you can change anything, do you? :)
I think you can change the world.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1194 on: 24/07/2014 20:20:28 »
That's my unrequited love.
And I'm counting on you.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1195 on: 24/07/2014 21:32:55 »
In some weird way you could say that complexity is more than just the statistics, it's about how they become. About ideals, ethics, dreams and deeply felt needs.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1196 on: 24/07/2014 21:41:34 »
My thesis here is that life is more than just a 'clock work orange'. Use blind fate, and statisitcs, when it's applicable, but involve intelligence, and the stuff that makes us believe, and I would expect the statistics to change. The coin is no longer 'fair'.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1197 on: 24/07/2014 21:43:39 »
You can ignore this, but on your own peril. Because doing it should invalidate any ideas of a progress.
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1198 on: 24/07/2014 23:54:17 »
Lost because we all need to be loved,

Very true my friend. But there is one more thing we need even more than to be loved. We need to start loving others ourselves.
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Re: How does a 'field' become observer dependent?
« Reply #1199 on: 25/07/2014 12:06:46 »
It's probably so that we can't Ethos, not all, and not everywhere. And I'm not even sure that I would want it? Some individuals actions speaks against them too such a degree, think of war crimes for example. Even without this security of 'knowing love', you should still have ethics to guide you.
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