What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #100 on: 10/09/2013 17:51:06 »
A hall mark of consciousness is not just being self aware, but knowing that others are also aware, and being able to imagine or see something from the perspective of another conscious being.

That isn't a hallmark of consciousness (regardless of this label that is usually attached to it), but an indication that a certain level of intelligence has been reached. A machine can be programmed to recognise other machines and to judge that they have a different perspective on things, but with no consciousness being involved. It's important not to be misled by the labels where someone has incorrectly attached the word "consciousness" to something. "Self aware" does not require consciousness, but a lot of people assume that consciousness is tied up in the idea of awareness. A security lamp that switches on when a cat walks past at night is "aware" of the cat, but there is no concsiousness involved. Consciousness is not awareness, but a feeling of awareness; a feeling of understanding something; a feeling of some kind or other. It is always a feeling.

I don't know if the cat and lamp post is the best analogy. Even if the lamp post is set up to turn on all the other lamp posts in the yard that do not sense the cat, they essentially become parts of the same machine. Not to mention the fact that the lamp post is not really "aware" of a cat, or the significance of cats, it's detecting something like movement and is as likely to be set off by rustling leaves. In the chimp experiment, the threat was someone dressed as a veterinarian with a large needle, that all the chimps were afraid of because of past painful vaccinations. 

I suspect whatever experiment is offered up, someone will claim they can replicate the details of it with computers, or that the experiment cannot prove what the chimp is actually "feeling," therefore it cannot tell us anything about true consciousness, whose definition, like the word "feeling," remains elusive and constantly changing.

As flawed as these experiments may be, I still feel they contribute something to the bulk of evidence supporting a biological basis of consciousness. And certainly the explanations are more reasonable than claiming the consciousness springs from nothing at all, which reminds me of the spontaneous generation arguments hundreds of years ago.

Recently there was news about the first brain to brain interface, in which a researcher at the University of Washington was able to move another scientist's hand across campus. That isn't exactly a Vulcan mind meld, but it's pretty cool, and it does make you wonder if these methods will become sophisticated enough to allow someone to experience another person's consciousness. But I am also afraid that if you were able to do that and hooked a person up to a chimp, DonQuixote would claim they were only experiencing the "illusion" of the chimp's consciousness.

Nevertheless, experiments can invalidate certain claims. DonQuixote asserted earlier that his consciousness or cognitive understanding informs his emotional responses, but fMRI imaging has shown that is not the actual sequence of events, make of that what you will. And you are probably also aware of FMRI imaging that demonstrates the brain deciding to act before the subject is aware that he has decided to do something. Until we can do mind melds, we may be limited in explaining the qualitative aspects of feelings, but we can certainly find out what happens when inside the brain.

But again, no matter what research methodology or evidence is offered up, no matter how much science progresses towards understanding phenomena which were once thought to be not only unmeasurable, but untraceable and undefinable, it's never enough for those who cannot or do not want to believe that we are physical beings and mortal.

I am gonna respond only to what you said about me , to some extent at least :
First of all , I cannot say i understand what consciousness is or how it operates ,let alone that i can do just that in relation to awareness ...I just said things in that regard without really thinking about what i was saying .

Second : i am well aware of those experiments that show that one can predict the potential "decisions " of a subject , 6 secs before he/she  can do that himself/herself : but , those experiments were just conducted at the level of the brain only = our decisions do involve sub-conscious as well as conscious elements though : so , just studying the brain only in that regard would only give us incomplete and non-conclusive results on the subject at hand .

But then again, our Cooper or dlorde here would say that mechanical systems or programmed machines can make "decisions" also ,even though they cannot be conscious ...But , i think that our decision -making process is in a way different than those of machines, in the sense that our mind did not "emerge " from our evolved brain = our mind has some degree of independence= our mind is not mechanical  ...I dunno ...The notion of human free will is a very nasty elusive deceptive one  humanity has been struggling with for so long now that there seems to be no end in sight to it,so... We cannot pretend to solve that human free will issue .....for the time being at least though .

Which brings us back to square zero again ,regarding the issue of the brain and consciousness :

I assume that they are both different "systems " which do correlate and interact with each other ,materialists mainly do confuse with ..causation though .
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 18:00:44 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #101 on: 10/09/2013 18:10:42 »
How can you consider the following as a scientific approach , and not as a materialistic view point :

Our alleged evolved ability to  rebel against our genes ,via our evolved brain , and therefore to be independent in that regard at least : how can our mechanical brain accomplish such a performance   then ? How can a mechanical system such as our brain generate such independence ?

How can that alleged independence "emerge " from our complex evolved so-called mechanical brain then ?

It might be more correct to say that the genes aren't overridden - they program for a system which is capable of calculating intelligently, so the genes are still winning out. It's only the simpler systems which aren't able to calculate intelligently that are being overridden by the newer system involving complex thinking. When you look at it like that, it's not so very different from two competing instincts, one which tries to make an animal run away from a possible danger while another instinct makes it stay where it is in order to continue feeding on some good fruit that's growing on a bush. If the fear outweighs the desire to eat, the animal will run away. When you add some decent calculation into the equation and make it a person feeding from a bush covered in fruit while a lion is approaching, that person can override the fear based on the knowledge that there is a hidden ravine between him and the lion which it won't be able to cross. Knowledge and understanding overrides the fear and may even remove the fear altogether. This could happen in many animals too, their knowledge of things unseen being used to override/modify their feelings. It's a small step from there to more complex thoughts also being able to override instinctive behaviours, so it isn't such a jump to get to the point where we can reject our instinct to be violent and suppress those desires deliberately in order to live in a more peaceful, safe society.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #102 on: 10/09/2013 18:11:00 »
I think we are approaching DQ's definition of consciousness as "that which is unique to humans".

Problem is that we can trace a continuum of evolution that suggests a common ancestor with some nonhuman species - gorillas, orangutans, etc., so he needs to tell us whether this mysterious attribute occurred at the moment of divergence or some time later in the hominid line, and why, if it is so closely associated with a purely genetic origin, it is itself not genetic and therefore mechanistic in origin.

It's also slightly odd that although we exploit various animals, the only ones that fully and willingly integrate into human society as partners are dogs, which are very different from the apes we resemble. Can it be that they share our consciousness, whatever that means? 
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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #103 on: 10/09/2013 18:35:27 »
How can you consider the following as a scientific approach , and not as a materialistic view point :

Our alleged evolved ability to  rebel against our genes ,via our evolved brain , and therefore to be independent in that regard at least : how can our mechanical brain accomplish such a performance   then ? How can a mechanical system such as our brain generate such independence ?

How can that alleged independence "emerge " from our complex evolved so-called mechanical brain then ?

It might be more correct to say that the genes aren't overridden - they program for a system which is capable of calculating intelligently, so the genes are still winning out. It's only the simpler systems which aren't able to calculate intelligently that are being overridden by the newer system involving complex thinking. When you look at it like that, it's not so very different from two competing instincts, one which tries to make an animal run away from a possible danger while another instinct makes it stay where it is in order to continue feeding on some good fruit that's growing on a bush. If the fear outweighs the desire to eat, the animal will run away. When you add some decent calculation into the equation and make it a person feeding from a bush covered in fruit while a lion is approaching, that person can override the fear based on the knowledge that there is a hidden ravine between him and the lion which it won't be able to cross. Knowledge and understanding overrides the fear and may even remove the fear altogether. This could happen in many animals too, their knowledge of things unseen being used to override/modify their feelings. It's a small step from there to more complex thoughts also being able to override instinctive behaviours, so it isn't such a jump to get to the point where we can reject our instinct to be violent and suppress those desires deliberately in order to live in a more peaceful, safe society.

That might be relatively true ,if we eliminate the hard problem of human consciousness from the "equation " ,but we can't ...

The human mind or the human consciousness are no mechanical processes : no one has been able to prove just that = makes no sense whatsoever either , unless we confine ourselves within the narrow exclusive boundaries key holes or tunnel visions of the mechanical materialism on the subject .

Our consciousness or mind might be just sophisticated built -in in our evolutionary alleged mechanical systems illusions survival strategies , but then again , that would imply that all our knowledge , including the scientific one, including that concerning evolution itself ...to mention just that ...that would imply explicitly that they are all just illusions = a paradox .

At the other hand , If consciousness is real , you cannot "build " it in mechanical systems it cannot rise from = i do not see how one can do just that in fact , no matter how you try to "incorporate or integrate " consciousness in mechanical systems ,via trying to find out how the mechanical data gets translated or converted to consciousness, as you put it at least  : maybe our consciousness just gets informed somehow ,don't tell me how, i dunno, via our sensory "inputs " about some data it acts upon as a result by triggering the response to that data generated by our senses, to action , i dunno - I am as in the dark in this as we all are : we are stuck in this, for the time being at least .



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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #104 on: 10/09/2013 18:58:38 »
The human mind or the human consciousness are no mechanical processes : no one has been able to prove just that = makes no sense whatsoever either , unless we confine ourselves within the narrow exclusive boundaries key holes or tunnel visions of the mechanical materialism on the subject .

The problem is that we have a mechanical biological machine that acts mechanically without appearing to need consciousness. A simple example is with pain where an input signalling potential damage feeds into some part of the brain where pain is perhaps experienced, then a signal goes on from there to trigger an action to respond to it, but the part of that model where pain is experienced is superfluous as the input signal might as well just become the output signal without any pain being generated in the middle. That doesn't mean that pain isn't generated somewhere along the way, but with humans at least there is also data generated which asserts that there was some pain generated. If that is really happening (i.e. pain is being felt and the information is being informed of that), then there has to be a mechanism of some kind which generates that information, so putting consciousness into the model requires it to tie into the whole system mechanically.

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At the other hand , If consciousness is real , you cannot "build " it in mechanical systems it cannot rise from = i do not see how one can do just that in fact , no matter how you try to "incorporate or integrate " consciousness in mechanical systems ,via trying to find out how the mechanical data gets translated or converted to consciousness, as you put it at least  : maybe our consciousness just gets informed somehow ,don't tell me how, i dunno, via our sensory "inputs " about some data it acts upon as a result by triggering the response to that data generated by our senses, to action , i dunno - I am as in the dark in this as we all are : we are stuck in this, for the time being at least .

It is not beyond possibility that consciousness is not found within the biological machines that we see. They could be more like books. You read a book and get caught up in the story and feel for the characters in it. This universe might be a virtual realm that holds interactive stories, and consciousnesses on the outside (the real us) get tied into it such that they can feel for the machines which they are in control of. But the key thing here is that controlling aspect. If our feelings are causing those machines to behave differently depending on how we feel, there must be a causation mechanism involved by which those feelings lead to the machines being steered in their behaviour. You can try to replace mechanism with magic, but in doing so you can only hide mechanism - there must still be a mechanism by which any magic operates, so it is not a good answer to anything.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 19:00:49 by David Cooper »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #105 on: 10/09/2013 19:43:20 »
The human mind or the human consciousness are no mechanical processes : no one has been able to prove just that = makes no sense whatsoever either , unless we confine ourselves within the narrow exclusive boundaries key holes or tunnel visions of the mechanical materialism on the subject .

The problem is that we have a mechanical biological machine that acts mechanically without appearing to need consciousness. A simple example is with pain where an input signalling potential damage feeds into some part of the brain where pain is perhaps experienced, then a signal goes on from there to trigger an action to respond to it, but the part of that model where pain is experienced is superfluous as the input signal might as well just become the output signal without any pain being generated in the middle. That doesn't mean that pain isn't generated somewhere along the way, but with humans at least there is also data generated which asserts that there was some pain generated. If that is really happening (i.e. pain is being felt and the information is being informed of that), then there has to be a mechanism of some kind which generates that information, so putting consciousness into the model requires it to tie into the whole system mechanically.

Pain is real ,not an illusion,  dude :

You cannot build the human real feeling of pain in a machine either ,no matter how hard you try to do just that, you can just make it simulate that = you cannot make any mechanical system generate a totally different process than his ,no way  .

Consciousness is immaterial = you cannot decide to turn it into a mechanical process , by somehow changing its immaterial nature via some magical trick , just in order to make it fit into your world view ...no way .

what if consciousness is primordial ? What if consciousness is the real boss  that 's in charge of our whole system ,and our biology is just its executive power ,relatively speaking ,so to speak ?
What if brain and mind are 2 different systems in relation to their entirely different natures that  do interact with each other , but do not cause each other ?
How they might correlate with each other is still a mystery indeed .

But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial consciousness or the mind in any mechanical system for that matter , no way : you cannot include consciosness which is immaterial within a mechanical system .

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At the other hand , If consciousness is real , you cannot "build " it in mechanical systems it cannot rise from = i do not see how one can do just that in fact , no matter how you try to "incorporate or integrate " consciousness in mechanical systems ,via trying to find out how the mechanical data gets translated or converted to consciousness, as you put it at least  : maybe our consciousness just gets informed somehow ,don't tell me how, i dunno, via our sensory "inputs " about some data it acts upon as a result by triggering the response to that data generated by our senses, to action , i dunno - I am as in the dark in this as we all are : we are stuck in this, for the time being at least .

It is not beyond possibility that consciousness is not found within the biological machines that we see. They could be more like books. You read a book and get caught up in the story and feel for the characters in it. This universe might be a virtual realm that holds interactive stories, and consciousnesses on the outside (the real us) get tied into it such that they can feel for the machines which they are in control of. But the key thing here is that controlling aspect. If our feelings are causing those machines to behave differently depending on how we feel, there must be a causation mechanism involved by which those feelings lead to the machines being steered in their behaviour. You can try to replace mechanism with magic, but in doing so you can only hide mechanism - there must still be a mechanism by which any magic operates, so it is not a good answer to anything.

Do not confuse the ordinary "magical" tricks (That's no magic in fact : that can be explained by certain corresponding mechanisms indeed )   conducted by illusionists, no matter how sophisticated they might ever be,  with the hard problem of consciousness .

You do not realise the fact that you are the one who's trying to introduce magic into a mechanical system , by trying to make consciousness fit into it .

It would take an act of magic indeed haha to do just that = cannot be done in fact .


What if consciousness is immaterial and therefore it behaves via non-mechanical processes then ?

How the alleged mechanical brain interacts with the non-mechanical consciousness is yet another mystery we cannot explain either .

We cannot prove all the above  to be the case either , as we cannot try to explain how the different systems : consciousness and brain , do interact with each other , without causing each other = the executive power does not get caused by the legislative one = the legislative power does not create the executive power , so to speak , physically , or vice versa = the ordinary executive power is made of already existing people and vice versa  = this is just an analogy , no comparison though .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #106 on: 10/09/2013 19:52:55 »
Many scientific studies have come  across that mysterious healing power of the mind in relation to the body they cannot explain :

See just this scientific study on the subject concerning :

Placebo-Cracking the Code = They have cracked no code in fact :

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/placebo-cracking-code/

P.S.: Humanity today still cannot seem to be able to find its way concerning its attempts to figure out what ,on earth, the nature or function of human consciousness are :

We are all stuck in this dead-end street = cul de sac , as the French say .
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 19:57:41 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #107 on: 10/09/2013 20:11:58 »
How can you consider the following as a scientific approach , and not as a materialistic view point :
I've no idea - did someone say that?

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Our alleged evolved ability to  rebel against our genes ,via our evolved brain , and therefore to be independent in that regard at least : how can our mechanical brain accomplish such a performance   then ? How can a mechanical system such as our brain generate such independence ?

How can that alleged independence "emerge " from our complex evolved so-called mechanical brain then ?

You tell me ...
In brief, the success of a more nuanced approach to behaviour drove the evolution of the neocortex in mammals. It provides an extra level of behavioural complexity and subtlety, and can modify, redirect, or suppress many of the simpler behavioural responses from the 'earlier' parts of the brain.

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See that post of yours here above ,as a reply to mine on the subject thus :

(So , you have been deceiving us , I trusted you ....learn to live with it ....things like that .... ).
'Learn to live with it' is common-sense recommendation. I don't see any irrationality there. For the rest, it was a light-hearted comment on your extraordinary "let's stop deceiving each other , let's be honest", with it's implications of deceit and dishonesty. I added a smiley specifically so you wouldn't misread it...

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #108 on: 10/09/2013 20:22:45 »
our Cooper or dlorde here would say that mechanical systems or programmed machines can make "decisions" also ,even though they cannot be conscious ...
As it happens, I wouldn't say that, and I'd appreciate you quoting what I actually do say rather than putting words in my mouth.

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.. i think that our decision -making process is in a way different than those of machines, in the sense that our mind did not "emerge " from our evolved brain = our mind has some degree of independence= our mind is not mechanical  ...I dunno
Is this an 'argument from incredulity' or a circular argument ? I have a sneaking suspicion it's both.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #109 on: 10/09/2013 20:48:54 »
Pain is real ,not an illusion,  dude :

How can you be so sure that it's real? You could just be a machine being tricked into generating data that asserts that it's real. This possibility must be seriously considered until we can find some useful way of fitting pain into the model.

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You cannot build the human real feeling of pain in a machine either ,no matter how hard you try to do just that, you can just make it simulate that = you cannot make any mechanical system generate a totally different process than his ,no way  .

I'm using the word "mechanical" in a wider sense than normal, taking my lead in that regard from the words "mechanism" and "mechanistic". The point of using these words is to point to chains of cause and effect which make up the process by which things function. If pain is to cause a response, that is an act of causation. It is mechanistic. Mechanical. If you deny its mechanical nature, you are taking away its ability to cause anything. If pain can't cause a response, it can have no role in the response system.

[Note: in English, "it can have no role" actually means "it cannot have any role". I used the first of these phrase formulae above for stylistic reasons because that is the normal way to express things, though it may be unclear to someone whose first language is not English.]

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Consciousness is immaterial = you cannot decide to turn it into a mechanical process , by somehow changing its immaterial nature via some magical trick , just in order to make it fit into your world view ...no way .

I don't care what label you want to attach to it in the way of material/immaterial - what matters is its role as part of a mechanism.

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what if consciousness is primordial ? What if consciousness is the real boss  that 's in charge of our whole system ,and our biology is just its executive power ,relatively speaking ,so to speak ?
What if brain and mind are 2 different systems in relation to their entirely different natures that  do interact with each other , but do not cause each other ?
How they might correlate with each other is still a mystery indeed .

What if the real boss is something else and somewhere else? Well, how does it link up with the biological machine to make that machine function? How can the machine act without being caused to act by the real boss elsewhere? The chains of causation (i.e. the mechanism) cannot simply be ignored by having two systems and trying to link them by magic.

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But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial consciousness or the mind in any mechanical system for that matter , no way : you cannot include consciosness which is immaterial within a mechanical system .

Let me translate your words above into another form for you:-

But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial cause in the same system as the material effect of that cause, no way : you cannot include an immaterial cause with a mechanical effect.

In other words, consciousness cannot control a biological machine. There is no way in which your immaterial desires can make your body act on them, so if the delicious smell of that bread makes you want to eat some, your body will not respond to that drive which is thus rendered irrelevant. Qualia can have no role in the system because you have banned them from interacting with the mechanical system.

[Note: the above does not represent my view of things, but is a logical extension of your view.]

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Do not confuse the ordinary "magical" tricks (That's no magic in fact : that can be explained by certain corresponding mechanisms indeed )   conducted by illusionists, no matter how sophisticated they might ever be,  with the hard problem of consciousness .

When I talk of magic, I'm referring to the Harry Potter variety: not simple tricks, but supernatural powers. But even then, these powers if they were to be real would still have a hidden mechanism by which they operate, so the distinction is really about whether they can be explained by known laws of physics or unknown ones. Magicians act within known laws. Wizards (of the kind found in fiction) need to use laws outside of known physics.

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You do not realise the fact that you are the one who's trying to introduce magic into a mechanical system , by trying to make consciousness fit into it .

No, I'm trying to eliminate all the magic by aiming to identify the full chain of causation in the system. Consciousness cannot drive anything without causation, and causation = mechanism.

The model has to take the form: A causes B, B causes C, C causes D, D causes E, E causes F. To add non-mechanistic consciousness into that system you would need to add something to say: A doesn't cause X, X doesn't cause Y, Y doesn't cause Z, Z doesn't cause F, and then assert that the "X doesn't cause Y" part of it has a key role in the chain "A causes F". It clearly doesn't. It has no role in the chain "A causes F" at all.

If it is to have a role, we have to rewrite the chain as: A causes X, X causes Y, Y causes Z, Z causes F. We now have a new model for the chain "A causes F" with consciousness as part of a replacement mechanism, but we still have a mechanistic system. The problem now though is that if the chain "A causes B, B causes C, C causes D, D causes E, E causes F" still looks valid, the new chain must either override it or be overridden by it whenever they disagree. Only one of them can be valid while the other is wrong, unless they always happen to agree by chance such that it's impossible to identify which one would override the other, though in such a case it would render consciousness redundant. It would also prevent the system from reporting that it has consciousness unless the system which has no knowledge of consciousness happens to generate fictions about consciousness which happen by luck to be true.

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What if consciousness is immaterial and therefore it behaves via non-mechanical processes then ?

You would have non-mechanical causes which are unable to cause their mechanical effects.

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We cannot prove all the above  to be the case either , as we cannot try to explain how the different systems : consciousness and brain , do interact with each other , without causing each other = the executive power does not get caused by the legislative one = the legislative power does not create the executive power , so to speak , physically , or vice versa = the ordinary executive power is made of already existing people and vice versa  = this is just an analogy , no comparison though .

That might or might not make sense, depending on what it means.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2013 21:04:44 by David Cooper »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #110 on: 11/09/2013 04:51:22 »
Consciousness is immaterial = you cannot decide to turn it into a mechanical process , by somehow changing its immaterial nature via some magical trick , just in order to make it fit into your world view ...no way


....But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial consciousness or the mind in any mechanical system for that matter , no way : you cannot include consciosness which is immaterial within a mechanical system .

Let me translate your words above into another form for you:-

But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial cause in the same system as the material effect of that cause, no way : you cannot include an immaterial cause with a mechanical effect.

In other words, consciousness cannot control a biological machine. There is no way in which your immaterial desires can make your body act on them, so if the delicious smell of that bread makes you want to eat some, your body will not respond to that drive which is thus rendered irrelevant. Qualia can have no role in the system because you have banned them from interacting with the mechanical system.


It would seem that it has to work both ways. If consciousness is immaterial, truly separate, different, than there is no way it should control or affect biological or physical activities. You cannot have your metaphysical cake and eat it too.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #111 on: 11/09/2013 19:26:56 »
...if you were able to do that and hooked a person up to a chimp, DonQuixote would claim they were only experiencing the "illusion" of the chimp's consciousness.

That would be a fun experiment, though any feelings involved in the human triggered by the inputs from the chimp would depend on human feelings which might be nothing like those experienced by the chimp. It is interesting though that our friend DonQuichotte thinks chimps lack consciousness. There's a biological machine which is almost the same as us and superior intellectually to some people, and yet chimps supposedly lack consciousness while people have it. All these mechanisms which we have that are driven by likes and dislikes, by discomfort and pleasure, are unnecessary in all other creatures? They are all zombies? Why do we have them if all other creatures have no need of them?

I never said that chimps lacked consciousness : they have a lesser degree of consciousness , compared to humans , for example (There is no comparison between the 2 in fact , in that regard at least ):there are degrees and levels of consciousness we can find in all creatures , including maybe in the inorganic matter or atoms , as some might say :

There are even many levels of human consciousness as well , few people can pretend to achieve .

Man's consciousness is unique , in the sense that it is not matched by that of any other living organism or inorganic matter .

Your wicked denigrating statement that some chimps are intellectually more superior to some humans ...is worst than racism by the way :

In fact , superior or inferior judgements of value have no meaning , in evolutionary terms .






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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #112 on: 11/09/2013 19:39:38 »

I never said that chimps lacked consciousness : they have a lesser degree of consciousness , compared to humans , for example (There is no comparison between the 2 in fact , in that regard at least ):there are degrees and levels of consciousness we can find in all creatures ,......

.........In fact , superior or inferior judgements of value have no meaning , in evolutionary terms .

So, ignoring the fact that you refuse to define consciouness, (a) how do you measure it and (b) how do you reconcile your two statements above?
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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #113 on: 11/09/2013 19:40:11 »
Consciousness is immaterial = you cannot decide to turn it into a mechanical process , by somehow changing its immaterial nature via some magical trick , just in order to make it fit into your world view ...no way


....But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial consciousness or the mind in any mechanical system for that matter , no way : you cannot include consciosness which is immaterial within a mechanical system .

Let me translate your words above into another form for you:-

But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial cause in the same system as the material effect of that cause, no way : you cannot include an immaterial cause with a mechanical effect.

In other words, consciousness cannot control a biological machine. There is no way in which your immaterial desires can make your body act on them, so if the delicious smell of that bread makes you want to eat some, your body will not respond to that drive which is thus rendered irrelevant. Qualia can have no role in the system because you have banned them from interacting with the mechanical system.


It would seem that it has to work both ways. If consciousness is immaterial, truly separate, different, than there is no way it should control or affect biological or physical activities. You cannot have your metaphysical cake and eat it too.

I am sorry to say that you all sound to me as short sighted people on the issue of consciousness at least , due to your world views on the matter , you do confuse with science proper , wihtout being able to realise that fact , unfortuantely enough .

Your reduced levels of consciousness do the rest ,as a result .

Try to listen to this very interesting interview of a quantum physicist regarding consciousness through  Higgins' field ...:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgUZADy0GNY

"The mind of God " expression in the video is just a metaphor though .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #114 on: 11/09/2013 19:48:16 »

I never said that chimps lacked consciousness : they have a lesser degree of consciousness , compared to humans , for example (There is no comparison between the 2 in fact , in that regard at least ):there are degrees and levels of consciousness we can find in all creatures ,......

.........In fact , superior or inferior judgements of value have no meaning , in evolutionary terms .

So, ignoring the fact that you refuse to define consciouness, (a) how do you measure it and (b) how do you reconcile your two statements above?

Humans have way too many extended levels of consciousness ,compared to the rest = no comparison , in fact , just an analogy .

There are also humans individuals who can reach more levels of consciousness , than other humans individuals, as this thread shows .= we do not all reach the same levels of human consciousness = some people are able to reach more levels of consciousness than other humans can ever be , as this thread shows , for example ,and once again  .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #115 on: 11/09/2013 20:14:26 »
Pain is real ,not an illusion,  dude :

How can you be so sure that it's real? You could just be a machine being tricked into generating data that asserts that it's real. This possibility must be seriously considered until we can find some useful way of fitting pain into the model.

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You cannot build the human real feeling of pain in a machine either ,no matter how hard you try to do just that, you can just make it simulate that = you cannot make any mechanical system generate a totally different process than his ,no way  .

I'm using the word "mechanical" in a wider sense than normal, taking my lead in that regard from the words "mechanism" and "mechanistic". The point of using these words is to point to chains of cause and effect which make up the process by which things function. If pain is to cause a response, that is an act of causation. It is mechanistic. Mechanical. If you deny its mechanical nature, you are taking away its ability to cause anything. If pain can't cause a response, it can have no role in the response system.

[Note: in English, "it can have no role" actually means "it cannot have any role". I used the first of these phrase formulae above for stylistic reasons because that is the normal way to express things, though it may be unclear to someone whose first language is not English.]

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Consciousness is immaterial = you cannot decide to turn it into a mechanical process , by somehow changing its immaterial nature via some magical trick , just in order to make it fit into your world view ...no way .

I don't care what label you want to attach to it in the way of material/immaterial - what matters is its role as part of a mechanism.

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what if consciousness is primordial ? What if consciousness is the real boss  that 's in charge of our whole system ,and our biology is just its executive power ,relatively speaking ,so to speak ?
What if brain and mind are 2 different systems in relation to their entirely different natures that  do interact with each other , but do not cause each other ?
How they might correlate with each other is still a mystery indeed .

What if the real boss is something else and somewhere else? Well, how does it link up with the biological machine to make that machine function? How can the machine act without being caused to act by the real boss elsewhere? The chains of causation (i.e. the mechanism) cannot simply be ignored by having two systems and trying to link them by magic.

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But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial consciousness or the mind in any mechanical system for that matter , no way : you cannot include consciosness which is immaterial within a mechanical system .

Let me translate your words above into another form for you:-

But i cannot see how one can integrate the immaterial cause in the same system as the material effect of that cause, no way : you cannot include an immaterial cause with a mechanical effect.

In other words, consciousness cannot control a biological machine. There is no way in which your immaterial desires can make your body act on them, so if the delicious smell of that bread makes you want to eat some, your body will not respond to that drive which is thus rendered irrelevant. Qualia can have no role in the system because you have banned them from interacting with the mechanical system.

[Note: the above does not represent my view of things, but is a logical extension of your view.]

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Do not confuse the ordinary "magical" tricks (That's no magic in fact : that can be explained by certain corresponding mechanisms indeed )   conducted by illusionists, no matter how sophisticated they might ever be,  with the hard problem of consciousness .

When I talk of magic, I'm referring to the Harry Potter variety: not simple tricks, but supernatural powers. But even then, these powers if they were to be real would still have a hidden mechanism by which they operate, so the distinction is really about whether they can be explained by known laws of physics or unknown ones. Magicians act within known laws. Wizards (of the kind found in fiction) need to use laws outside of known physics.

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You do not realise the fact that you are the one who's trying to introduce magic into a mechanical system , by trying to make consciousness fit into it .

No, I'm trying to eliminate all the magic by aiming to identify the full chain of causation in the system. Consciousness cannot drive anything without causation, and causation = mechanism.

The model has to take the form: A causes B, B causes C, C causes D, D causes E, E causes F. To add non-mechanistic consciousness into that system you would need to add something to say: A doesn't cause X, X doesn't cause Y, Y doesn't cause Z, Z doesn't cause F, and then assert that the "X doesn't cause Y" part of it has a key role in the chain "A causes F". It clearly doesn't. It has no role in the chain "A causes F" at all.

If it is to have a role, we have to rewrite the chain as: A causes X, X causes Y, Y causes Z, Z causes F. We now have a new model for the chain "A causes F" with consciousness as part of a replacement mechanism, but we still have a mechanistic system. The problem now though is that if the chain "A causes B, B causes C, C causes D, D causes E, E causes F" still looks valid, the new chain must either override it or be overridden by it whenever they disagree. Only one of them can be valid while the other is wrong, unless they always happen to agree by chance such that it's impossible to identify which one would override the other, though in such a case it would render consciousness redundant. It would also prevent the system from reporting that it has consciousness unless the system which has no knowledge of consciousness happens to generate fictions about consciousness which happen by luck to be true.

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What if consciousness is immaterial and therefore it behaves via non-mechanical processes then ?

You would have non-mechanical causes which are unable to cause their mechanical effects.

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We cannot prove all the above  to be the case either , as we cannot try to explain how the different systems : consciousness and brain , do interact with each other , without causing each other = the executive power does not get caused by the legislative one = the legislative power does not create the executive power , so to speak , physically , or vice versa = the ordinary executive power is made of already existing people and vice versa  = this is just an analogy , no comparison though .

That might or might not make sense, depending on what it means.


The core point here , we all seem to have forgotten is :

How can a mechanical system create the mind or consciousness ,once again ?

No one has ever been able to answer just that question : so, you guys , just resort to that promissory messianic materialism alternative circle "reasoning "  or exit strategy , instead of acknowledging your obvious impotence on the subject , especially after realising the fact that materialism 's approach of consciousness was / is just a magical "emergence " trick .

What if causation is just an illusion we take for real , as David Hume tried to prove ?

What if there is no such a thing as mechanical systems , when it comes to living organisms , or even when it comes to inorganic matter ?

What if cause and effect were / are just illusions thus ?

If, say , i was experiencing some frustrations at work ...in my family life ...and i happen to meet you , as a friend , in the street : let's say you propose to take me for a drink , in order to chill out and release stress  : then , we start talking about this and that : later on, human consciousness grabs our attention and we focus on it :

As a guy who presumabely works with machines , as opposed to me as just an artist who's no expert on evolution, mechanical systems , biology ...you suddenly make a mistake of saying that some people are lower than chimps intellectually , just because they might be relatively ignorant ,as we all are regarding this or that , regarding some subjects or sciences , relatively speaking : you get a punch in the face while falling on the ground , without realising what hit you : would i have caused your potential self-defence or survival reaction ,as a result , that might have put you in more or less danger ?

Your brain would react to that feeling of pain ,via your sensory "inputs " , by triggering a potential reaction ,would i have caused that ?

Would i have caused any potential lethal threat to your life , depending on your reaction ?

....

I was once crazy about football to the point where i threw my tv set out of the window when i saw the defeat of my preferred club : the tv set almost landed on the head of an innocent pedestrian = I almost killed the guy that way : that episode of my life helped me cure myself from my football fanatism ,later on .

That destroyed tv set of mine on the street stopped functioning of course: take it as a metaphor for the human brain then : did that mean that my tv set created the tv signals it used to receive when it was functioning ?

Get real ,grow up , get  better adults'  behaviours , get  a  better life and better world views via trying to extend your level of consciousness, life experiences ...and relative knowledge ...if you wanna increase your survival and beyond that chances at least ...

Good luck .

 

« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 20:23:38 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #116 on: 11/09/2013 20:37:22 »
Action triggered by or in fact as equal to the human mind put in motion via Higgins' field that maybe , just maybe gets in its turn made in motion by a higher power that might hold everything existing together for that matter, our minds that depend on or tend to long for unity with that fundamental root capacity of that higher power or root  Self  , that action might be the core " building block element " of the  "structure "  of the universe , who knows ?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #117 on: 11/09/2013 20:46:40 »
There is nothing racist in pointing out that people with severe learning disabilities can in many cases be on a lower intellectual level than chimps. It's a measurable fact.

Also, the "Higgins' field" is a snooker table.

And, there is a great danger of someone on this thread turning into a troll, so it's probably time it was locked by a moderator.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #118 on: 11/09/2013 21:13:20 »
There is nothing racist in pointing out that people with severe learning disabilities can in many cases be on a lower intellectual level than chimps. It's a measurable fact.

(Who's really intellectually lower than chimps here  is a matter of opinion indeed , and of  whishful thinking as well  = beware of what you might wish for ...= blindness of the heart is what you do seem to share with apparent genuises such as Stephen Hawking : heart's intelligence as the highest form of intelligence or intellect : heart as no emotions, feelings or biological organ ...)

You mean people who are not willing to confuse your  silly childish mechanical world view with science proper ,or rather do not share your own interpretations of science ...and who are not willing to share those silly childish mechanical word views of yours with you ...

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Also, the "Higgins' field" is a snooker table.

That quantum physicist in the above mentioned   video based his assumptions on maths and physics , assumptions i might have distorted .
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And, there is a great danger of someone on this thread turning into a troll, so it's probably time it was locked by a moderator.

Disagreeing with people and with their stupid appaling tendency to impose their world views on them, in the name of science ,are not synonymous of trolling ,dude .

Yeah, just run to mummy , and hide behind her skirt ....and do not forget to take your industrial secrets ' fantasies with you as well, while you are at it ...
« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 21:25:26 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #119 on: 11/09/2013 21:34:13 »
Mummy :

I have just discovered a brilliant fact = we are just machines: I am a genius ,and the rest are so lower than chimps intellectually  haha

You are machines indeed , how can i disagree with that fact , silly me .

What ,on earth, am i doing here talking to ...machines indeed ? haha

Why not talk to my tv set or to my dog instead = that might turn out to be more fruitfuil  and more intelligent than talking to you as self-declared and actual machines  ,who knows .

Pathetic
Sad
Tragic


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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #120 on: 11/09/2013 21:43:27 »
Final note , after that , just close this thread ,mod , if you wish to do so :
I have no objections :

This western materialistic secular atheistic civilization has been taking over  this planet and humanity for so long now that it is about time indeed to deliver both this planet and humanity from the tyranny of this so-called civilization ,despite the latter's huge material scientific and technological advances , a so-called civilization that has been turning humans into just consumptive superficial hollow machines zombies indeed , with no consciousness whatsoever ,depriving most  humans of their fundamental primary quality of them all = consciousness ,in the process  .

I have the feeling our planet have been taken over by apes, by  western mechanical  Eurocentric mainstream racist paternalistic imperialist white apes zombies , to be more precize ,ironically enough  = the planet of the mechanical white apes zombies ,mechanical white apes  zombies humanity gotta be liberated from, sooner or later= inevitable = just a matter of time thus  .

...........
Real apes  animals out there in your natural habitat : i am sorry for offending you indeed ,by calling others by your names  : i know you would understand ...



Ciao

« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 22:05:50 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #121 on: 11/09/2013 22:19:44 »
Your wicked denigrating statement that some chimps are intellectually more superior to some humans ...is worst than racism by the way :

In fact , superior or inferior judgements of value have no meaning , in evolutionary terms .
This is just nonsense - if superior or inferior value judgements have no meaning, how can they be wicked, denigrating, and worse than racism?

Nevertheless, even in healthy individuals at their peak, the average chimp is intellectually superior (i.e. can outperform) the the average human in memory tests. Of course, humans can outperform chimps in many other intellectual tasks - and, of course, plenty of other animals have better memories than we do. Nothing says human intellect is necessarily special. It's no big deal - a slime-mould can navigate a maze more efficiently than most humans; OTOH it can't write a poem.

It's nothing to do with racism. If you were going to accuse him of anything, it would be specism, but that's something else entirely.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 22:30:30 by dlorde »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #122 on: 11/09/2013 22:28:04 »
Mummy :

I have just discovered a brilliant fact = we are just machines: I am a genius ,and the rest are so lower than chimps intellectually  haha

You are machines indeed , how can i disagree with that fact , silly me .

What ,on earth, am i doing here talking to ...machines indeed ? haha

Why not talk to my tv set or to my dog instead = that might turn out to be more fruitfuil  and more intelligent than talking to you as self-declared and actual machines  ,who knows .

Pathetic
Sad
Tragic
I was wondering when you'd start this again...
« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 22:42:50 by dlorde »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #123 on: 11/09/2013 22:46:44 »
This western materialistic secular atheistic civilization has been taking over  this planet and humanity for so long now that it is about time indeed to deliver both this planet and humanity from the tyranny of this so-called civilization ,despite the latter's huge material scientific and technological advances , a so-called civilization that has been turning humans into just consumptive superficial hollow machines zombies indeed , with no consciousness whatsoever ,depriving most  humans of their fundamental primary quality of them all = consciousness ,in the process  .

I have the feeling our planet have been taken over by apes, by  western mechanical  Eurocentric mainstream racist paternalistic imperialist white apes zombies , to be more precize ,ironically enough  = the planet of the mechanical white apes zombies ,mechanical white apes  zombies humanity gotta be liberated from, sooner or later= inevitable = just a matter of time thus  .

...........
Real apes  animals out there in your natural habitat : i am sorry for offending you indeed ,by calling others by your names  : i know you would understand ...

So what's the plan? - or was that just more empty rhetoric?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #124 on: 11/09/2013 23:38:35 »
Alas, the man has gone from curious eloquence to raving logorrhea. Time to move on.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #125 on: 12/09/2013 15:46:10 »
I haven't called in a mod. I just think that when a thread starts attempting to commit suicide repeatedly like this one, it may be kindest just to help it on its way. I've given up a significant amount of my time to share some ideas with someone who was asking for such ideas, and while for a time he appeared to be modifying his position in some places, he now appears to have thrown away all his gains and retreated back into his original position. I have no complaint about that whatsoever, but it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #126 on: 12/09/2013 17:08:45 »
This western materialistic secular atheistic civilization has been taking over  this planet and humanity for so long now that it is about time indeed to deliver both this planet and humanity from the tyranny of this so-called civilization ,despite the latter's huge material scientific and technological advances , a so-called civilization that has been turning humans into just consumptive superficial hollow machines zombies indeed , with no consciousness whatsoever ,depriving most  humans of their fundamental primary quality of them all = consciousness ,in the process  .

I have the feeling our planet have been taken over by apes, by  western mechanical  Eurocentric mainstream racist paternalistic imperialist white apes zombies , to be more precize ,ironically enough  = the planet of the mechanical white apes zombies ,mechanical white apes  zombies humanity gotta be liberated from, sooner or later= inevitable = just a matter of time thus  .

...........
Real apes  animals out there in your natural habitat : i am sorry for offending you indeed ,by calling others by your names  : i know you would understand ...

So what's the plan? - or was that just more empty rhetoric?.

Those were no rhetorics , just facts on the reality ground : materialism has also been hijacking science for more than 5 centuries now , while excluding all non-materialistic paradigms or world views in the process .

Besides, it is a fact that white western Eurocentrism has been taking over this planet and humanity for more than 5 centuries now as well :

I couldn't help but make reference to that  planet of the apes  analogy in that regard ,so.



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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #127 on: 12/09/2013 17:31:58 »
... it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.

Yup, that about sums it up.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #128 on: 12/09/2013 18:48:58 »
I haven't called in a mod. I just think that when a thread starts attempting to commit suicide repeatedly like this one, it may be kindest just to help it on its way. I've given up a significant amount of my time to share some ideas with someone who was asking for such ideas, and while for a time he appeared to be modifying his position in some places, he now appears to have thrown away all his gains and retreated back into his original position. I have no complaint about that whatsoever, but it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.

(I think that telling stories can help : they work perfectly when it comes to my kids at least, no offense  )

You do sound to me like those earlier fanatic intolerant exclusive medieval jesuites on a mission who used to think it was a privilege for "primitive " peoples to receive the "light"  of christianity they should be grateful  for  .

Great philosopher Sir Muhammad Iqbal said once on the subject , or in words to that same effect at least , the following :(He studied western philosophy both in Oxford and in Berlin by the way ,as he was knighted by the Queen of England back then for his brilliant poetry works  ) :

An English Gentleman told me once he hated the jews , because they thought of themselves as the choosen people of God .A belief which implies and maybe justifies contempt of other peoples .
He did not remember that the phrase " White Man's Burden " contains the same belief in a different garb .


..............

So,stop this silly paternalism of yours , emotional blackmail or pleading i cannot stand , please : pathetic

Do not flatter yourself too much , dude : you do seem to lack the most important form of intelligence or most important form of intellect of them all , mainly thanks to that mechanical spirit of yours (Heart's intelligence as the highest form of intelligence or intellect , heart as no emotions feelings , or biological organ , once again. Heart as intuition or intuitive insights : informed experienced developed extended intuition, not the ordinary intuition that 's not really reliable though  ) as apparent genuises such as Stephen Hawking , Dawkins  ...do by the way .

Thare are also many other forms of intelligence ...Intelligence is also and certainly a relative concept : we might be relatively  intelligent in some areas  and totally or relatively stupid in other ones   ...
.........
There was a story my grandma used to tell me when i was a kid that goes a bit like this, in order to cheer me out when i was afraid of the dark  :

A pretentious arrogant full of himself scholar wanted to cross a certain river to get to the other part of it via a little boat managed by an old man : when the scholar got on board , he could not stop bragging about his knowledge on this and that , then he turned his attention to the silent humble old man and asked him whether he happened to know about this and that .

The old man said : Look, sir , i do not know much , all i know is how to get people where they wanna go through this river , via this boat , in order to be able to make a decent living .

The scholar responded :  well, you ignorance made you lose  half of your life for nothing .

A storm suddenly turned the little boat upside down ,and both passengers found themselves on water .

The old man asked the pretentious scholar whether he knew how to swim : no , said the latter .

Well, you 're about to lose your whole life ....


...

Another pretentious full of himself scholar was informed by the great wisdom of a buddhist monk he went to see what the guy was all about for himself :

That scholar would not stop bragging about his supposed knowledge ...so, that humble silent monk proposed tea : when the monk was pouring tea for the scholar , he did not stop doing that even when the tea cup was full : the scholar said to him : stop, the cup is overfull and the table is covered by tea , can"t you see that ? Are you stupid ? .

The monk responded : when a tea cup is full, it cannot be filled with anythingelse = you scholar are like that : you gotta be emptied first .
.............
The "value " of that silly IQ test is like trying to "capture "  beauty via measuring
the size of the nose , of the cheeks, the hips .....I did extremely well in that stupid IQ test i do not see any value in though .
...........
Well, there were  no suicide attempts being committed by this or on this thread ,that's a rather  hilarious  peculiar weird way of putting things .

I do appreciate your time spent on this thread i could do perfectly without , i must admit , to be honest , but i do not see it as some kindda altruism, "charity" , goodness ...i should be "grateful " for .... .

You lack also that subtle sensitive humanistic patient ...pedagogy you could accomplish "miracles " by , if you only tried to develop it in yourself = I do not see how a machine like yourself can do just that,maybe you can, who knows  .

If you happened to have expected some reward or reciprocity by spending all that time here as a transaction , in the form or shape of changing my mind on the subject of this thread as a reward for being so "generous " as to shed your mechanical "light " on the supposed " darkness or ignorance of my heart and mind " : just know it does not work like that ,and i do not believe in scratch my back and i will scratch yours either , and i certainly cannot stand arrogant pretentious people who might think they have the monopoly of the truth other people should be grateful for receiving as a privilege  ...

You can keep on talking about your mechanical world view all you want : i cannot share it whith you, not in a million years even : i did specify why ,relatively speaking .

But when one crosses the line of respect , decency, courtesy  ...by calling his opponents names , by stating that as a fact even, by insulting people's relative intelligence ,just because they cannot swallow one's world views on the subject  then , there can be no room for constructive or productive discussions, no room for discussions at all   .

P.S.: Even prophets themselves who were sent to people in order to transmit their received messages to them , those prophets were explicitly ordered to be subtle in that by being patient , gentle kind nice , without hurting people's feelings , without calling people names ...

Who then the hell do you think  you are , in comparison ? That's no comparison in fact , not even remotely close = just an anlogy .

Even prophet Moses himself was not wise or patient open-minded enough  to be able to handle the subtle truths of a wiser guy he met :

That wiser guy, so to speak , said to Moses when the latter insisted on accompanying  him , in order to learn from his superior wisdom ,that wiser guy said : you cannot handle the truth :

Moses promissed to do his best in that regard :

After getting on board of a humble boat owned by some poor guys , that wiser guy damaged  some part of it.

Moses was  outraged : how can you reward the goodness of these poor people who accepted to take us on board for free , by harming their boat , this evil way ? ,he shouted to the wiser guy .

The latter answered : there is a ruthless unjust king out there who likes to rob people from their property , so, i damaged the boat , in order to make that king ignora this boat of these poor people as their only source of living . I told you you cannot handle the truth .

Moses promissed again that he would try to be patient and not object a-priori to any potential future mysterious behaviour of the wiser guy ...

In short : they went through 2 other similar incidents Moses could not understand or handle at first sight , the wiser guy explained his perfectly logical behaviour that seemed mysterious and evil to Moses at first sight .

After the third incident , both went their separate ways , as a result .

Final note :

Who's the wiser guy here , i do not pretend to be just that in fact , maybe you are ,who knows ?

Obvious inevitable solution ? : Let's go our separate ways .

Deal ?




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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #129 on: 12/09/2013 19:01:44 »
... it's clear that further discussion is pointless because of the trolling style of posts which have now become the main event.

For this reason, I'm out.
Quote
Yup, that about sums it up.

No wonder = very predictable= 2 machanical soul mates agreeing with each other ...no wonder ...

I also happen to agree with the both of you indeed , ironically enough, for opposite totally different reasons = all roads do lead to Rome, so it seems at least .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #130 on: 12/09/2013 19:04:00 »
I told you you cannot handle the truth , didn't I ? But , i am no wiser guy though .
Try to figure that out, or not , who cares  .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #131 on: 12/09/2013 19:16:52 »
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss...people .

So, let's just let some intellectually ( Your reductionistic mechanical approach of human or other intellect can only make you utter such non-sense in that regard ) superior chimp figure that out for us all indeed , from your exclusively mechanical perspective at least , i do not share with you , not even remotely close , no way .

May i have that privilege freedom or right ? i am perfectly entiteld to , ironically enough  haha = It's not up to either of you, guys , or to anyoneelse for that matter to decide just that .

Or , let's just wait for the next level of evolution of man instead : at the level of consciousness indeed ,no chimp can ever dream of ever reaching , not even remotely close, even though chimps seem to share more than 99 % DNA material with us ...........= We are not just DNA or physical brain body  interacting with the environment+ nurture = we are not just mechanical biological processes = we are much much much more than just that in fact , that's way beyond your mechanical reduced imaginations, you have no idea = our minds are way too primordial and fundamental for that = a fact you , hopefully , might be able to figure out for yourselves , some day , or not , who cares ...= you have a lot of catch up to do, a long way to go , a very long journey to take ...to be able to just grasp that fact , and take it from there again ... = a dynamic endless restless journey ...

Good luck indeed, you're gonna certainly need it, even though i do not believe in the existence of such a thing such as ...luck   .
.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 19:23:21 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #132 on: 12/09/2013 19:18:07 »
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #133 on: 12/09/2013 19:24:58 »
Great minds discuss ideas


A lot of big ideas from great minds were proven wrong by empirical evidence and careful observation of seemingly small and insignificant events.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #134 on: 12/09/2013 19:34:00 »
Quote
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

Well, darling :

When you're gonna learn to separate between materialism as just a world view and science , when you will learn to separate science from the materialistic interpretations of science ,when you will learn to separate materialistic  world views and materialistic approaches from  science results and from scientific approaches , then , and only then , you will be able to understand what i was saying all along .

Our physical brain might be just a receiver , in almost the same fashion as the tv set is just a receiver of tv signals, tv signals that stop getting received by that tv set when the tv set or some parts of it at  least cease to function or are damaged ...= no comparison, just an analogy .

Does that mean that the tv set used to create those tv signals or images when it used to function ?


Need more examples or rather analogies?  .Just shoot .


« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 19:36:15 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #135 on: 12/09/2013 19:47:33 »
Great minds discuss ideas


A lot of big ideas from great minds were proven wrong by
Quote
e
mpirical evidence and careful observation of seemingly small and insignificant events.[/quote
]



Are all your supposed ideas proven empirical ones ? Come on , just get down from your high horse as a human being always should do .

And i was talking  about events in the ordinary trivial sense.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #136 on: 12/09/2013 19:52:41 »
Mummy :

I have just discovered a brilliant fact = we are just machines: I am a genius ,and the rest are so lower than chimps intellectually  haha

You are machines indeed , how can i disagree with that fact , silly me .

What ,on earth, am i doing here talking to ...machines indeed ? haha

Why not talk to my tv set or to my dog instead = that might turn out to be more fruitfuil  and more intelligent than talking to you as self-declared and actual machines  ,who knows .

Pathetic
Sad
Tragic
I was wondering when you'd start this again...

I might also use other similar or not stuff as well .

Repeating things might make them get through to you .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #137 on: 12/09/2013 20:15:59 »
Your wicked denigrating statement that some chimps are intellectually more superior to some humans ...is worst than racism by the way :

In fact , superior or inferior judgements of value have no meaning , in evolutionary terms .
This is just nonsense - if superior or inferior value judgements have no meaning, how can they be wicked, denigrating, and worse than racism?

Nevertheless, even in healthy individuals at their peak, the average chimp is intellectually superior (i.e. can outperform) the the average human in memory tests. Of course, humans can outperform chimps in many other intellectual tasks - and, of course, plenty of other animals have better memories than we do. Nothing says human intellect is necessarily special. It's no big deal - a slime-mould can navigate a maze more efficiently than most humans; OTOH it can't write a poem.

Only people through mechanical reductionistic world views can say that human intellect is no big deal : come on .

Human intellect makes part of the human mind, the latter as an immaterial process which happens to interact somehow, i dunno how , with the physical brain , the latter as some sort of just a  kindda  receiver .

There are many other animals , insects ...that can hear  what we cannot hear , that can see better than we can ever do  ....Does that mean they are superior to us  ?

We do also surpass them in many other areas they cannot ever approach, not even remotely close .

Birds , for example ,do fly , we do not , not via natural wings at least haha we do not have : does that mean they are syperior to us ?

There was once an experiment conducted with  chimps in France , i guess , who or which or whatever made some paintings that were later on considered by critics as top art , without a-priori knowing of course that they were made by chimps ....Does that mean that  chimps are superior to us  ?

What kindda silly reasoning is this then ?

As some famous scientist i do not recall the name of right now , who happened to write an intrduction to Dawkins ' "Selfish Gene " said i will sum up by this :

All living organisms were / are shaped by the same natural selection of evolution through their genes ...,including man thus = there is no reason to say that any species for that matter is superior or inferior to any other one for that matter , in the materialistic sense at least= i think humans are obviously and essentially way too superior to any other known living species or  known  living organisms on earth at least , despite the fact that many other  living organisms do surpass us in this area or that  .

Our unique unparalleled mind is what makes us human and therefore distinguishes us from other living organisms .

The whole is not the sum of its parts , dude .





Quote
It's nothing to do with racism. If you were going to accuse him of anything, it would be specism, but that's something else entirely.

I said that was worst or worse   than racism : i did not say it was racist or racism .

If i would accuse him of anything , i would rather accuse him of being a total jerk or ***** haha , in that regard at least .

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #138 on: 12/09/2013 20:41:41 »
Quote
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

Well, darling :

When you're gonna learn to separate between materialism as just a world view and science , when you will learn to separate science from the materialistic interpretations of science ,when you will learn to separate materialistic  world views and materialistic approaches from  science results and from scientific approaches , then , and only then , you will be able to understand what i was saying all along .

Our physical brain might be just a receiver , in almost the same fashion as the tv set is just a receiver of tv signals, tv signals that stop getting received by that tv set when the tv set or some parts of it at  least cease to function or are damaged ...= no comparison, just an analogy .

Does that mean that the tv set used to create those tv signals or images when it used to function ?


Need more examples or rather analogies?  .Just shoot .




I would be delighted to learn how to separate science from materialism, just explain how science works with out empirical evidence and reproducible results. Think of the money universities could save without all those fancy laboratories and particle accelerators!

I have heard of the radio/receiver analogy for consciousness, and it is an interesting idea. But it remains just an idea until you can tell me something scientifically verifiable about that mysterious transmitter.

In medicine there is something called a "zebra diagnosis." When you hear the sound of hooves, you expect to see a horse. Occasionally though, it turns out to be a zebra. The same set of observations, even though accurate, can lead you to a false conclusion, because you may be missing (or didn't think to look for) some small piece of critical information that makes a difference. Scientists have wandered down dead end paths for that reason. These kind of errors do not invalidate the entire scientific process and empiricism itself. 
« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 20:43:52 by cheryl j »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #139 on: 12/09/2013 21:08:45 »
Quote
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss...people .

and morons rehash drivel whilst throwing insults at those trying to hold an intelligent discussion.

Though I'm not even sure about the precepts here. Anyone can come up with an idea, but it takes a great mind to suggest a critical experiment (i.e. a series of events) that might support or disprove the idea. And it takes a bold mind to question a popular authority. Which is why I value science way above philosophy, and have no time for the discussion of undefined abstractions. 
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #140 on: 12/09/2013 23:30:31 »
...there is no reason to say that any species for that matter is superior or inferior to any other one for that matter , in the materialistic sense at least= i think humans are obviously and essentially way too superior to any other known living species or  known  living organisms on earth at least , despite the fact that many other  living organisms do surpass us in this area or that  .

I thought this was worth re-quoting just for surreality :)

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #141 on: 12/09/2013 23:59:27 »
Some people have a pretty high opinion of homo sapiens. But every other species sees us only as food or the enemy. Now with several million other species out there, the majority opinion among God's creation is clearly against us. And when I encounter a pompous fool, I'm tempted to side with the majority.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #142 on: 13/09/2013 16:37:05 »
Quote
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss...people .

and morons rehash drivel whilst throwing insults at those trying to hold an intelligent discussion.

Though I'm not even sure about the precepts here. Anyone can come up with an idea, but it takes a great mind to suggest a critical experiment (i.e. a series of events) that might support or disprove the idea. And it takes a bold mind to question a popular authority. Which is why I value science way above philosophy, and have no time for the discussion of undefined abstractions.


Finished preaching ?

It takes only xerox machines sort of people to repeat or copy  what others might say ,while distorting the actual reality at hand ;but the real xerox machines do make good copies though : see the sifference ?

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #143 on: 13/09/2013 16:46:08 »
Some people have a pretty high opinion of homo sapiens. But every other species sees us only as food or the enemy. Now with several million other species out there, the majority opinion among God's creation is clearly against us. And when I encounter a pompous fool, I'm tempted to side with the majority.

I think you really should consider a career , as a wanna -be bombastic materialistic preacher : you might attract some followers ...who knows ?

Beware of temptations : they might be  deceptive , elusive , delusive ..:

The truth is not a matter of the opinion of the majority , is not a matter of some sort of democracy: it takes only 1 single mind to turn even science itself upside down , no matter what  the  overwhelming  majority  in science might  say on the matter .





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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #144 on: 13/09/2013 16:48:47 »
...there is no reason to say that any species for that matter is superior or inferior to any other one for that matter , in the materialistic sense at least= i think humans are obviously and essentially way too superior to any other known living species or  known  living organisms on earth at least , despite the fact that many other  living organisms do surpass us in this area or that  .

I thought this was worth re-quoting just for surreality:)

What's so surreal about it then ?

Why did you ignore my other quotes ? because you could not answer them maybe ?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #145 on: 13/09/2013 17:41:41 »
Here's another banana for the troll.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #146 on: 13/09/2013 18:25:36 »
Quote
What is "science proper" ?  How  does science work without empirical evidence and reproducible results? Even physics, one of the most theoretical areas of the physical sciences, uses empirical observations and measurements to confirm mathematical propositions or conclusions generated by thought experiments. It may, as in the case of Einstein and relativity, take technology decades to catch up with theory, but empirical experiments are eventually done. And when there are contradictions, it causes a lot of head scratching and consternation. But they don't just ignore the data.

Well, darling :

When you're gonna learn to separate between materialism as just a world view and science , when you will learn to separate science from the materialistic interpretations of science ,when you will learn to separate materialistic  world views and materialistic approaches from  science results and from scientific approaches , then , and only then , you will be able to understand what i was saying all along .

Our physical brain might be just a receiver , in almost the same fashion as the tv set is just a receiver of tv signals, tv signals that stop getting received by that tv set when the tv set or some parts of it at  least cease to function or are damaged ...= no comparison, just an analogy .

Does that mean that the tv set used to create those tv signals or images when it used to function ?


Need more examples or rather analogies?  .Just shoot .




I would be delighted to learn how to separate science from materialism, just explain how science works with out empirical evidence and reproducible results. Think of the money universities could save without all those fancy laboratories and particle accelerators!


You're distorting my views : Who said that science can be or rather exist , let alone function without observation, experience, empirical evidence , without verifiable falsifiable reproducible results ? = that's the very definition of science by the way : what has that to do with materialism as a world view then ?

How can you confuse that with materialism as a world view ? : how can you confuse materialism with science ? - you are confirming my earlier and core point on the subject .Thanks for that .

Quote
I have heard of the radio/receiver analogy for consciousness, and it is an interesting idea. But it remains just an idea until you can tell me something scientifically verifiable about that mysterious transmitter.

Nobody can , for the time being at least , if ever : i am no exception to that rule .

That "transmitter " happens to be immaterial though ,that's why i said that that radio or tv set example was just that : an analogy, no comparison  : a logical analogy  , not a scientific one .

Quote
In medicine there is something called a "zebra diagnosis." When you hear the sound of hooves, you expect to see a horse. Occasionally though, it turns out to be a zebra. The same set of observations, even though accurate, can lead you to a false conclusion, because you may be missing (or didn't think to look for) some small piece of critical information that makes a difference. Scientists have wandered down dead end paths for that reason. These kind of errors do not invalidate the entire scientific process and empiricism itself.

Ok, there  is also what we can call learned cultural or other habits of thought and behaviour out there as well that are shaped by their corresponding cultural and other world views via nurture environment , as the case here is in this thread .

(There are also biological social cultural psychological and other factors that do shape our thought and thus our behaviour )
............
Organic chemist Linda Jean Shepherd in her unique book : " Lifting the veil : the feminine face of science " : neo-feminist philosophy of science , ethics ....combined  with the so-called depth Jung's psychology she said she studied for more than 15 years , combined with  the theory of chaos , with physics of chemistry ....

She told the tales of many brilliant mathematicians and scientists who dared to say that intuition, feeling and even love made them discover some breakthroughs in their respective fields .

A great mathematician , for example , even said to her : many great ideas of mine were the products of intuition, feeling ...and that he developed the habit to tell his students : what do you feel   about this ? when he displays certain mathematical equations on the board for them .

Linda Jean left science as a result of what she described in that interesting book of hers concerning her own experiences with science and scientists , what she went through ... ,because of that exclusive rational empirical reductionist approach in science she tried to improve by a more  holistic approach  , because of that ossified dogmatic exclusive bureaucratic hieriarchial , insensitive blind reductionist specialised materialism in science : she said , or in words to that same effect at least,for example  :

We were all raised a certain way , in order to think and behave a certain way , in order to approach a certain level of reality , missing the whole spectrum of other potential levels of reality in the process .

One example among many to illustrate the above she described as follows :

The Indians , from India , to be more precize , used to tame their elephants this way :

They used to tie their new born elephants babies to a soft leaf via a soft rope .

When they grown up to become adult elephants , they would destroy their metal chains tying them to solid big trees , together with the latter sometimes, but , and here where or when the amazing thing happened :

When those same grown -up adult elephants  would be tied to a soft leaf via a soft rope , they do not even try to make the slightest effort to break free from those soft "chains " they could do so easily .

Learned helplessness is also another example of the conditioned behaviour and thought at the level of  humans , and other species ...

Theer are many examples and scientific facts like that ,so  i will leave it at this then .


She said also, for example , that she tried to observe , look at , experience , grasp ..what she sees, experiences ... differently ...


...........

Say,  you decide to travel to a foreign country , you buy a travel guide that tells you where to go in the country of your choice , what to look for , what  to expect to find , to see , what food to eat , what clothes to wear depending on the weather there , what kindda culture and people you would meet and encounter ....

But , say , you decide to overlook some aspects of those info contained in that travel guide , by unlearning some of them , you might stumble across new experiences ,facts , events ...that might startle you , and that travel guide might not turn out to be really accurate .

You would experience things yourself , not what that guide tells you what to experience or find , expect ...

.........

There was an ancient tale of a famous Arab fool that goes a bit as follows :
He was so drunk once that he lost his  home  keys in the street while trying to go back home in that drunk state of his :
A friend of his happened to see him on his knees on the ground searching for something : that friend said : what 's going on ? What are you looking for ? Can i help ? Yes , i lost my keys , the fool responded :
After hours of exhausting search on their knees covering many blocks in the process , that exhausted friend said to the fool : Are you sure  you lost your keys here ,in this area ?

The fool answered : no ,i am not .

"Why didn't you say that ,in the first place to begin with ? , Why did you  let me search all this time on my knees  for nothing ? " said the angry friend .

 "Well i thought i should  better search for them here , because there is street light  only in this area:, responded the fool  .


We might be all behaving like that Arab fool indeed ...who knows .


...

A chinese old tale goes a bit as follows i did extract from "Geography of Thought : or how westerners and Asians think and why ?" by Richard E.Nisbett  , unique book by the way , even though i do not agree much with its core secular liberal so-called evolutionary "geographic " approach :

An old poor chinese farmer lost his only horse once that he used to rely on for farming his poor tiny piece of land .
His tiny village neighbours visited him to express their empathy for his loss .
He said : we do not know whether the loss of my only horse is a good or bad thing .

A week later , the old man's lost horse came back accompanied by another horse as well : a female horse then .

The neighbours were overjoyed : the old farmer said ,once again the same thing .

After a while , the young son of the old farmer injured his knees after falling from the back of his father's returning horse .
The neighbours visited the old man again to express their sorrow for his son's injury  .

The old farmer said the same thing again .

A month or so later , the emperor's army came to towm or to that village , in order to recruit all healthy men and boys by force , by direct order of the emperor himself .

Only the old farmer's son , old men  ,and little kids , together with women girls of course ...were allowed to stay in the village .

The old farmer said the same thing again to the villagers  who rushed to him to express their joy for the fact that his injured son  was not taken by the army ...

This story goes on and on indefinitely ...like that ...

..........

Here is an analogy regarding what you said also :

Logic or reason are also as less infaillible as common sense is by the way , as David Hume used to say .

.......

Take also , for example , this analogy :

As a western lady , i assume , say , you go to the US  where many foreigners taxi-drivers are out there , or  to any foreign country for that matter :

You talk to the first taxi-driver in English after landing in the airport , he/she turns out to be no English speaker , you go to the next one , the same happens, to the third one and so on , the same happens , there is no reason to assume that the next one after all that would also turn out to be no English speaker .

Take care





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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #147 on: 13/09/2013 18:27:29 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.


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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #148 on: 13/09/2013 18:38:23 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

You're distorting my views : Who said that science can be or rather exist , let alone function without observation, experience, empirical evidence , without verifiable falsifiable reproducible results ? = that's the very definition of science by the way : what has that to do with materialism as a world view then ?


Because experiments, observations, measurements, and empirical evidence are all material processes involving material things!

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #149 on: 13/09/2013 18:39:59 »
Here's another banana for the troll.

Welcome back , Mr . machine jesuit : I am delighted to have you back  .

I thought you said you were gone haha

What happened ? Was i able to trigger some mechanical mechanism in you , somehow ?

I know what particular "buttons " to push in you, don't worry .

If you happen to be looking for just that , all you have to do is just : shoot indeed.

You are welcome .

I would love to conduct some harmless innocent ethical experiments here , to be honest , i must admit .

I love bananas , i have enough of them by the way , thanks .

Can you sink even lower ?I wonder ,  I think you have already reached the bottom : you do not need any further push from anyone for that matter ,  i was not even responsible for , i was not even causing ...

Congratulations .

You are really turning into a real troll now , i see : do not preach what you do not do , Mr.mechanical hypocrit preacher .

Interesting sudden development worth studying carefully indeed .

I feel i am gonna have some real fun here : awesome .


« Last Edit: 13/09/2013 18:42:31 by DonQuichotte »