What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #150 on: 13/09/2013 18:45:43 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

You're distorting my views : Who said that science can be or rather exist , let alone function without observation, experience, empirical evidence , without verifiable falsifiable reproducible results ? = that's the very definition of science by the way : what has that to do with materialism as a world view then ?


Because experiments, observations, measurements, and empirical evidence are all material processes involving material things!

Do not confuse material things, the material nature of science , or the material side of reality with ...materialism as a world view , philosophy , life style, paradigm....= 2 entirely different categories  .
« Last Edit: 13/09/2013 18:47:38 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #151 on: 13/09/2013 19:04:04 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

There is also another option regarding the approach of consciousness, mainly because no single approach of consciousness can ever be able to claim itself to be totally scientific , not even remotely close thus , including the magical materialistic approach of consciousness thus :

Either we wait for some radical shift of paradigm in science ,or rather for a radical shift of meta-paradigm in  science,meta-paradigm  that's underlying all those paradigms or sub-paradigms in science , a radical shift of meta-paradigm that would disprove the actually mainstream materialistic dominating meta-paradigm in science =the materialistic meta-paradigm in science = that the universe is exclusively material .

Or combined with the fact that we  can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject , by trying to be up to date regarding what science can  relatively  say about consciousness via studying its alleged receiver some more : the brain : we still do not know much about the extreme complexity of the latter though ....
= a multi-approach then that might result in some sort of holistic synthesis someday = science alone cannot really approach consciousness ...we should combine science with a holistic approach ....of consciousness ...

Art, literature , philosophy , .....can also have some say on the subject as well thus ...

I dunno .

That's just my take on that .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #152 on: 13/09/2013 19:07:32 »
Later , alligators ...kidding

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #153 on: 13/09/2013 20:18:55 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

There is also another option regarding the approach of consciousness, mainly because no single approach of consciousness can ever be able to claim itself to be totally scientific , not even remotely close thus , including the magical materialistic approach of consciousness thus :

Either we wait for some radical shift of paradigm in science ,or rather for a radical shift of meta-paradigm in  science,meta-paradigm  that's underlying all those paradigms or sub-paradigms in science , a radical shift of meta-paradigm that would disprove the actually mainstream materialistic dominating meta-paradigm in science =the materialistic meta-paradigm in science = that the universe is exclusively material .

Or combined with the fact that we  can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject , by trying to be up to date regarding what science can  relatively  say about consciousness via studying its alleged receiver some more : the brain : we still do not know much about the extreme complexity of the latter though ....
= a multi-approach then that might result in some sort of holistic synthesis someday = science alone cannot really approach consciousness ...we should combine science with a holistic approach ....of consciousness ...

Art, literature , philosophy , .....can also have some say on the subject as well thus ...

I dunno .

That's just my take on that .


I don't see where you have really provided another option than the ones I listed above.

ancient wisdom - appeal to authority, divine revelation
philosophy -  a prior reasoning, appeal to authority
personal experience - intuitive process, lucky guess, or divine revelation
other people's personal experience - appeal to authority
Expanding consciousness to understand consciousness - intuitive, or a priori reasoning
art, literature - intuitive process, more appeals to authority.
Paradigm shift - to what? Belief in the immaterial? Which can be known or understood by what means? See above.

Combining all of the above in some "holisitic" way does not solve your problem.
« Last Edit: 13/09/2013 20:26:03 by cheryl j »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #154 on: 13/09/2013 20:39:48 »
If consciousness is immaterial, that is not made of any form of matter and energy, and cannot be studied by any empirical or physical process, how does one know what it is, or isn't, what it can and cannot do, it's effects on other things, or anything about it?  It would seem that one is stuck with the options of 1) a priori reasoning, 2) some intuitive process and/or lucky guess, or 3) divine revelation, all of which are problematic. As powerful as logic and reasoning can be, your subsequent understanding of consciousness will rest on whether or not it is as you originally define it to be, that it has the characteristics you say it does. Lucky guesses and divine revelation will ultimately result in logical fallacies like "appeal to authority," eg something is true because the Bible says so, or the Koran says so, or Jojo's psychic hotline says so.

I guess the forth option is just to say it is unknowable, but that seems rather like just giving up.

If I am overlooking some path to knowledge about something which is immaterial, please fill me in.

There is also another option regarding the approach of consciousness, mainly because no single approach of consciousness can ever be able to claim itself to be totally scientific , not even remotely close thus , including the magical materialistic approach of consciousness thus :

Either we wait for some radical shift of paradigm in science ,or rather for a radical shift of meta-paradigm in  science,meta-paradigm  that's underlying all those paradigms or sub-paradigms in science , a radical shift of meta-paradigm that would disprove the actually mainstream materialistic dominating meta-paradigm in science =the materialistic meta-paradigm in science = that the universe is exclusively material .

Or combined with the fact that we  can try to approach consciousness via trying to extend our levels of consciousness via personal experiences shaped by certain world views, by the personal experiences of others on the subject , by ancient wisdoms on the subject , by trying to be up to date regarding what science can  relatively  say about consciousness via studying its alleged receiver some more : the brain : we still do not know much about the extreme complexity of the latter though ....
= a multi-approach then that might result in some sort of holistic synthesis someday = science alone cannot really approach consciousness ...we should combine science with a holistic approach ....of consciousness ...

Art, literature , philosophy , .....can also have some say on the subject as well thus ...

I dunno .

That's just my take on that .


I don't see where you have really provided another option than the ones I listed above.

ancient wisdom - appeal to authority, divine revelation
philosophy -  a prior reasoning, appeal to authority
personal experience - intuitive process, lucky guess, or divine revelation
other people's personal experience - appeal to authority
Expanding consciousness to understand consciousness - intuitive, or a priori reasoning
art, literature - intuitive process, more appeals to authority.
Paradigm shift - to what? Belief in the immaterial? Which can be known or understood by what means? See above.

Combining all of the above in some "holisitic" way does not solve your problem.

I have little time left at my disposal, so , i am gonna just say the following  very quickly  ,for the time being at least :

Once again, science alone cannot help in that regard ,can just partly help by sheding light on the alleged receiver of consciousness : the brain , mainly due to the fact that consciousness is immaterial , science must be combined with what i mentioned .

Philosophy is no appeal to authority , philosophy can be enriched and developed by science results as well , not to mention the philosophy of science ...

Personal experiences do contain some cognitive elements as well ,not just subjective ones,  and can be developed by life experiences, scientific knowledge  ...by experienced spirituality, experienced art ...

Ancient wisdom also contains some cognitive elements ,  some cognitive elements of other people's personal experiences as well ....

For example, you can try to get in touch , so to speak, with your self , consciousness, inner life via meditation, via mindfulness, ....via other means as well .

Literature , art , music , philosophy, world views, ancient wisdoms , personal experiences, life experiences, psychology  ...combined with sciences can deliver some holistic approach of consciousness ...

It's not my problem that science is guided by a false meta-paradigm ...I am not responsible for just that haha

Just take a look at the following then :

 http://keentalks.com/primacy-consciousness/

P.S.: I am not really responsible for the potential errors that might or might not be contained in this post of mine , blame that eventually on  the speed of "light " through which i wrote this post .

Good night

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #155 on: 13/09/2013 23:18:56 »
What's so surreal about it then ?
You're just not trying...

Quote
Why did you ignore my other quotes ? because you could not answer them maybe ?
Most of your questions have been asked and answered repeatedly; did you have some particular question in mind that hasn't yet been asked or answered?

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #156 on: 13/09/2013 23:22:19 »
I dunno .

That's just my take on that .
Can't argue with that; you could have just omitted all the preceding blah.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #157 on: 13/09/2013 23:26:18 »
P.S.: I am not really responsible for the potential errors that might or might not be contained in this post of mine , blame that eventually on  the speed of "light " through which i wrote this post .
Your choice, your post, your responsibility.

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #158 on: 14/09/2013 13:26:05 »
Why  I like science:

Materialists may be like the guy searching for his keys under the lamp post because the light is better there, but at least he will know whether or not they are there. He can rule out that part of the lawn. The materialist hopes to build a better light to extend the search to more distant areas. At any rate, it seems preferable to groping around the dark, hoping to get lucky.

Rhythmic Brain Waves: Fluctuations in Electrical Activity May Allow Brain to Form Thoughts and Memories
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121121130815.htm

The above link discusses research about one small aspect of brain activity linking cells to thoughts: "A new study from researchers at MIT and Boston University (BU) sheds light on how neural ensembles form thoughts and support the flexibility to change one's mind. The research team, led by Earl Miller, the Picower Professor of Neuroscience at MIT, identified groups of neurons that encode specific behavioral rules by oscillating in synchrony with each other."

To the philosopher looking for big answers to big questions, it would not seem terribly impressive, but it is to me. Perhaps I have a small mind, but I  would rather know one small detail about the world with some degree of certainty than have a vague, fuzzy concept about life, the universe, and everything. I would rather understand the workings of a cricket.

Although there have been revolutionary shifts in thinking in  science, I think the bulk of scientific knowledge advances in these small increments, chipping away slowly at the nature of reality, one chemical reaction or oscillating neuron or particle experiment at time.
« Last Edit: 14/09/2013 13:27:56 by cheryl j »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #159 on: 14/09/2013 13:42:50 »
Why  I like science:
<wise words>

Well put.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #160 on: 14/09/2013 13:43:34 »
More bananas for the troll.

[These banana comments aren't aimed at the troll.]

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #161 on: 14/09/2013 18:23:07 »
Why  I like science:

Materialists may be like the guy searching for his keys under the lamp post because the light is better there, but at least he will know whether or not they are there. He can rule out that part of the lawn. The materialist hopes to build a better light to extend the search to more distant areas. At any rate, it seems preferable to groping around the dark, hoping to get lucky.

Rhythmic Brain Waves: Fluctuations in Electrical Activity May Allow Brain to Form Thoughts and Memories
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121121130815.htm

The above link discusses research about one small aspect of brain activity linking cells to thoughts: "A new study from researchers at MIT and Boston University (BU) sheds light on how neural ensembles form thoughts and support the flexibility to change one's mind. The research team, led by Earl Miller, the Picower Professor of Neuroscience at MIT, identified groups of neurons that encode specific behavioral rules by oscillating in synchrony with each other."

To the philosopher looking for big answers to big questions, it would not seem terribly impressive, but it is to me. Perhaps I have a small mind, but I  would rather know one small detail about the world with some degree of certainty than have a vague, fuzzy concept about life, the universe, and everything. I would rather understand the workings of a cricket.

Although there have been revolutionary shifts in thinking in  science, I think the bulk of scientific knowledge advances in these small increments, chipping away slowly at the nature of reality, one chemical reaction or oscillating neuron or particle experiment at time.

Is this some sort of desperate pleading and stubborn denial ?
Anyway :
You forgot to mention that materialism itself is just a world view, a philosophy , a life style, a paradigm ...you do continue to confuse with science proper , with the apparent material side of reality , with the material nature of science , with scientific approaches, with scientific results and facts ...

Not to mention that materialistic interpretations of science or of science results facts has nothing to do with the latter also .

It is also a fact that we all change reality , scientific experiments ,scientific results , ...whenever we look at them  , in the sense that we get a modified version of them via our human interpretations and perceptions of them  , or we just get a representation of reality, not reality proper  .

Second : that certain neurons can generate thoughts is just a materialistic magical assumption interpretation that can be compared to that magical materialistic "emergence " trick regarding consciousness : I provided you earlier with some analogies or metaphors regarding just that , in the sense that a tv set ,for example , cannot create tv signals or images , otherwise , all the images we see on tv ,regarding people , landscapes ...."might be living inside the tv haha " : i was once once on tv myself : my family recorded that , and while we were watching it afterwards at home , my little kids told me : dad, were you living inside the tv? : how come you are here and not there where you live inside the tv haha : Get the pic or rather metaphor ?

Sweet dreams , darling ,or rather dear Alice in your own materialistic mechanical magical wonderland :

I will sum up the true reality and nature of materialism as follows :

The materialist is the guy who looks at the world universe through a key hole tunnel vision ,thanks to his / her materialism as just an exclusive narrow-minded reductionist mechanical world view .and therefore pretends that all he / she can see through that key hole is all what there is out there ,while trying to make science fit into that materialistic key hole , via some magical performance, in order to be able to "validate " itself in the process ,via magic thus .
« Last Edit: 14/09/2013 18:44:54 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #162 on: 14/09/2013 18:51:26 »
@ dlorde :

If you have something intelligent to say , be my guest , go ahead , knock yourself out ,make my day and just say it .
I do not have time for silly games , or silly remarks ,rhetorics ...

Davide Cooper : Get a life , grow up ,stop trolling , or just continue doing just that , if that would make you happy and give you some sense of purpose or meaning ...: It's gonna be extrenmely difficult for you to climb that whole mountain all the way from its  very bottom  you have already reached : if you need any help in that regard , just say so , deal ?
Good luck .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #163 on: 14/09/2013 18:57:09 »
Why  I like science:
<wise words>

Well put.

Sweet dreams in your magical materialistic wonderland, Alice II



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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #164 on: 14/09/2013 21:04:09 »
Quote from: dlorde
... did you have some particular question in mind that hasn't yet been asked or answered?
@ dlorde :If you have something intelligent to say , be my guest , go ahead , knock yourself out ,make my day and just say it .
I do not have time for silly games , or silly remarks ,rhetorics ...
OK. I'll take that as a 'no'.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #165 on: 15/09/2013 00:23:23 »
To the philosopher looking for big answers to big questions, it would not seem terribly impressive, but it is to me.

Come off it, girl! Have you ever met a philosopher who was looking for an answer, or was prepared to accept one? AFAIK the job of philosophers is to try to convince you that you don't understand the question, or if it is plain that you do (because you asked the question), that you couldn't possibly understand the answer.

"How does a cricket work?" is a big question because if we knew, we could explain pretty much everything from the origin of life to its probable destiny. "Why does the universe exist?" looks like a big question to a philosopher, but it is illogical nonsense based on human vanity, and therefore inconsequential.

The reason I like science is because what we do is VERY IMPORTANT and VERY INTERESTING. And I'm pretty sure you feel the same.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #166 on: 15/09/2013 02:36:36 »



Is this some sort of desperate pleading and stubborn denial ?
Anyway :
You forgot to mention that materialism itself is just a world view, a philosophy , a life style, a paradigm ...you do continue to confuse with science proper , with the apparent material side of reality , with the material nature of science , with scientific approaches, with scientific results and facts ..


You keep accusing me and other posters of confusing materialism as a tool of science with materialism as “a world view or life style”, but I can’t help but conclude that it is actually you who is doing this. I am in fact specifically and only referring to a belief that the world consists of matter and energy, and the use of physical processes involving matter and energy in order to learn more  about the world. You are the only person here ranting about Soulless White Eurocentric Apes holding Science Proper captive. Materialsim as a “lifestyle” I assume refers to valuing material goods and money above knowledge, ideas, helping people, experiences, etc, and I do not know how I or anyone else has displayed or advocated that. I really think it is you who is confusing the two terms which are only superficially related in the English language anyway. Incidentally, “material” in English also refers to fabric, and although I am a materialist, I am not a seamstress, in case you might be confused on this point.

PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 16:42:31 by cheryl j »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #167 on: 15/09/2013 03:11:11 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

Second : that certain neurons can generate thoughts is just a materialistic magical assumption [b
interpretation [/b]that can be compared to that magical materialistic "emergence " trick regarding consciousness : I provided you earlier with some analogies or metaphors regarding just that , in the sense that a tv set ,for example , cannot create tv signals or images , otherwise , all the images we see on tv ,regarding people , landscapes ...."might be living inside the tv haha " : i was once once on tv myself : my family recorded that , and while we were watching it afterwards at home , my little kids told me : dad, were you living inside the tv? : how come you are here and not there where you live inside the tv haha : Get the pic or rather metaphor ?

Sweet dreams , darling ,or rather dear Alice in your own materialistic mechanical magical wonderland :

I will sum up the true reality and nature of materialism as follows :

The materialist is the guy who looks at the world universe through a key hole tunnel vision ,thanks to his / her materialism as just an exclusive narrow-minded reductionist mechanical world view .and therefore pretends that all he / she can see through that key hole is all what there is out there ,while trying to make science fit into that materialistic key hole , via some magical performance, in order to be able to "validate " itself in the process ,via magic thus .



I have friends who believe in the supernatural, paranormal, and of course, religion. I do not ridicule their beliefs or try to convert them to my way of thinking, and we have some interesting and pleasant discussions.

I do sometimes feel, though, that people who look for supernatural and "immaterial" explanations are like spoiled children at Christmas who see an entire room strewn with presents and packages and say "Is that all there is?" before opening a single one and looking inside.

Excuse me for psycho-analyzing you, but you seem to attribute a positive value, or "sacredness" to the immaterial and see everything material, from simple atoms to the flesh on the the bone, as profane. But I see something sacred or magical in the nuts and bolts of reality and every chemical reaction. The physical world needs no supernatural embellishment - it's awe inspiring enough to me on it's own. 

I sometimes wonder if someone could prove the existence  of angels, whether after I got over my initial surprise, they would be any more interesting than beavers or octopi. Certainly no imaginary description of angels has held my interest as much.

DonQuixote: when you ridicule me for not believing in something more beyond what I can see, I pity you for not seeing all that is there, right in your grasp.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 03:47:31 by cheryl j »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #168 on: 15/09/2013 10:28:47 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.
He used to call me 'dear', but he's obviously switched his affections - good luck with that!

@ dlorde :... When you will acknowledge ,recognize and realise the obvious  limits of science , reason, logic ....when you will stop confusing materialism as an exclusive world view with science ....

Otherwise , just keep on cherishing your own materialistic illusions ,delusions and fairytales in your own materialistic wonderland , dear Alice .
As you can see, his patronising is as Cut'n'Paste as his 'arguments', and all the really cool stuff is conveniently beyond science, reason, & logic.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 10:32:32 by dlorde »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #169 on: 15/09/2013 10:39:12 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.

and very modest about it.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #170 on: 15/09/2013 14:44:13 »
Of course, comments about feeding trolls are really just to make trolls think they're winning whenever they're fed. The opposite is true.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #171 on: 15/09/2013 16:57:09 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.

and very modest about it.

So what ? I might be hotter than you could ever be as well haha,whatever that might mean .

We were born that way : there is no reason to pretend to be modest about something you have no merit in , or something you had no say in , something you had no input in whatsoever............
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 18:44:05 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #172 on: 15/09/2013 17:13:22 »
PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.
He used to call me 'dear', but he's obviously switched his affections - good luck with that!

@ dlorde :... When you will acknowledge ,recognize and realise the obvious  limits of science , reason, logic ....when you will stop confusing materialism as an exclusive world view with science ....

Otherwise , just keep on cherishing your own materialistic illusions ,delusions and fairytales in your own materialistic wonderland , dear Alice .
As you can see, his patronising is as Cut'n'Paste as his 'arguments', and all the really cool stuff is conveniently beyond science, reason, & logic.

I do use  the words darling , dear ....just as a form of courtesy , politeness ..that's all .

As for the rest of your "input " , instead of discussing people, try to discuss what they have to say , deal ? Otherwise , just have the decency to shut up .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #173 on: 15/09/2013 18:39:42 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte

Second : that certain neurons can generate thoughts is just a materialistic magical assumption [b
interpretation [/b]that can be compared to that magical materialistic "emergence " trick regarding consciousness : I provided you earlier with some analogies or metaphors regarding just that , in the sense that a tv set ,for example , cannot create tv signals or images , otherwise , all the images we see on tv ,regarding people , landscapes ...."might be living inside the tv haha " : i was once once on tv myself : my family recorded that , and while we were watching it afterwards at home , my little kids told me : dad, were you living inside the tv? : how come you are here and not there where you live inside the tv haha : Get the pic or rather metaphor ?

Sweet dreams , darling ,or rather dear Alice in your own materialistic mechanical magical wonderland :

I will sum up the true reality and nature of materialism as follows :

The materialist is the guy who looks at the world universe through a key hole tunnel vision ,thanks to his / her materialism as just an exclusive narrow-minded reductionist mechanical world view .and therefore pretends that all he / she can see through that key hole is all what there is out there ,while trying to make science fit into that materialistic key hole , via some magical performance, in order to be able to "validate " itself in the process ,via magic thus .



I have friends who believe in the supernatural, paranormal, and of course, religion. I do not ridicule their beliefs or try to convert them to my way of thinking, and we have some interesting and pleasant discussions.


It takes 2 to tango,sweetie,  i just try to adapt my behaviour to that of the audience at hand .

Facts about something are not synonymous of ridiculing it .Respect is somethingelse .I can respect your views as long as you do not try to impose them on me as scientific facts or as scientific approaches , but the fact of the matter is : you do present materialistic views and approaches as scientific facts , or at least as scientific approaches : that way , either one who would object to that would be branded as unscientific ,irrational or worse , as that lunatic mechanical jesuit Cooper did in relation to the fact that i refused to share his mechanical views with him ...
Who was trying to convert anyone here ? Cooper as a mechanical jesuit was , for example, and when it became obvious that i would not embrace his mechanical faith , see what  his reaction was ...not to mention the fact that he still continues to play the fool in that regard as well .

I do have no problem with any world view, religion, current of thought , culture , people ...whatsoever , as long as they do not try to impose their own beliefs on others , in the name of science or in the name of any ...Jupiter ,Zeus or whatever for that matter ...

Materialists ,for example , are not only dishonest  enough as to present their own materialistic world views and approaches as scientific facts or as scientific  approaches , but they are in fact worse than that : they deliberately deceive people in the name of science as well = an understatement .


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I do sometimes feel, though, that people who look for supernatural and "immaterial" explanations are like spoiled children at Christmas who see an entire room strewn with presents and packages and say "Is that all there is?" before opening a single one and looking inside.

I do see the materialistic approaches regarding our immaterial side , for example , as the childish belief of some little kids who believe that Obama lives inside the tv .

The suprnatural does exist out there you gotta try to differentiate from ordinary fairy tales, kids' imagination, illusions ....Even that Russell's tea pot argument cannot cover the real supernatural out there ...

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Excuse me for psycho-analyzing you, but you seem to attribute a positive value, or "sacredness" to the immaterial and see everything material, from simple atoms to the flesh on the the bone, as profane. But I see something sacred or magical in the nuts and bolts of reality and every chemical reaction. The physical world needs no supernatural embellishment - it's awe inspiring enough to me on it's own. 


Everything in the universe is , per definition , sacred in my own belief,including chemical reactions, atoms ,sex ....(I am a happily married perfectly hetero guy to an angel of a woman i do "worship " : legetimate sex in my belief is even a kindda spiritual prayer , not just a biological process  ..... My artist side , that artist sensitive side brings me in trouble sometimes with people ,and does cause some misunderstanding as well in and by people : Get the pic ?  ): it's just that the implications of that  universal sacredness of everything in the universe in that  belief of mine regarding this or that on earth or elsewhere are a matter of degree ...-= a dog's life is not as sacred as the  human life ,but at the same time , saving a dog's life is a nobel thing to do as well = a matter of priority , balance , humanity , relativity,degree of sacredness  ....

Furthermore , i might even risk my own life and eventually even lose it by trying to save a dog's life ........there are many blanks like that that need to be filled ...

That awe of this world you get inspired by originates from your consciousness as a reaction to that you see ..., from your self or soul mainly , a soul you are trying to reduce to living organic matter = have you ever seen any non-human species being delighted or marvelled by the sunset , by nature ,by music, art,poetry  ... by the aesthetics of anything for that matter ? They might experience some lesser degrees of that , compared to humans ( no comparison in fact , just an analogy ) , but they would never be able to reach the level of humans or of rather some humans  in that regard  , not even remotely close .

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I sometimes wonder if someone could prove the existence  of angels, whether after I got over my initial surprise, they would be any more interesting than beavers or octopi. Certainly no imaginary description of angels has held my interest as much.

Ever occured to you that that might be beyond your or beyond any human imagination for that matter ?

You seem to have been overestimating the and your  human capacity of judgement or intellect as well  (dlorde said once that human intellect is no big deal though haha ) : you gotta use your heart as the highest form of intellect to just acknowledge the foolishness of your statements above : heart as no emotions, fee lings , or biological organ ...

When you will be grown-up and mature enough , you will be able to acknowledge the fact that science , for example , covers only a tiny apparent side of reality , and that human reason, logic ....have also limits + there might be other levels of reality out there we have absolutely no "idea " about = can you a-priori exclude any possibility or probability like that ?

So, do not act like a bee on the back of an elephant ( no comparison, just an analogy ) trying to "figure out " what that elephant might be , just via covering the area  or part of that elephant where it happens to stand .

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DonQuixote: when you ridicule me for not believing in something more beyond what I can see, I pity you for not seeing all that is there, right in your grasp.

Pleading again , sweetie ? :

 I am gonna only sweetie you from now on....simply because i think that women are the most beautiful creatures on earth ...women are far more sensitive intuitive than we could ever be ,if they happen not to be mechanical haha at least , no offense ,  women are more intelligent in some areas we could never reach ....women are the ones in charge in this world and in our private lives as well, even though they even succeed in making us , men , believe otherwise haha ...
Guys might have some perverse ideas if i would call them that they do not even deserve haha


Well, i see this apparent material side of reality science tries to cover ,every single day of my life i do interact with all the time : I just do not interpret it   the way you do by pretending that's all what there is out there : this apparent reality of ours is just an illusion in fact :

who's really to be pitied here , if pity can ever mean anything for that matter or seve any purpose , is a matter of opinion indeed , a matter of wishful thinking as well ...sometimes ..

Take care , sweetie .

Try to read that unique book of Linda Jean Shepherd that might turn your own life upside down , by , for example , showing you why and how you were / are attracted by the materialistic mechanical world view , and why you do the things you do, among manny other things as well ...

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #174 on: 15/09/2013 18:42:07 »
Expressions of courtesy , politeness .....and affection are 2 entirely different things .
There can be no affection involved , do not worry , folks haha ,simply because i do know neither of you, personally ...

In short : Grow up ...
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 18:51:53 by DonQuichotte »

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #175 on: 15/09/2013 18:49:02 »
Of course, comments about feeding trolls are really just to make trolls think they're winning whenever they're fed. The opposite is true.

Ever heard of projections ?

This would sound like feeding you , as the real silly fool troll here who seems to need some therapy of some sort  :
.............
It's not about winning ,silly : this is no competition .
It's all about trying to find out about the "truth " ,whatever the latter might mean or be  ...

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #176 on: 15/09/2013 19:09:07 »



Is this some sort of desperate pleading and stubborn denial ?
Anyway :
You forgot to mention that materialism itself is just a world view, a philosophy , a life style, a paradigm ...you do continue to confuse with science proper , with the apparent material side of reality , with the material nature of science , with scientific approaches, with scientific results and facts ..


You keep accusing me and other posters of confusing materialism as a tool of science with materialism as “a world view or life style”, but I can’t help but conclude that it is actually you who is doing this. I am in fact specifically and only referring to a belief that the world consists of matter and energy, and the use of physical processes involving matter and energy in order to learn more  about the world. You are the only person here ranting about Soulless White Eurocentric Apes holding Science Proper captive. Materialsim as a “lifestyle” I assume refers to valuing material goods and money above knowledge, ideas, helping people, experiences, etc, and I do not know how I or anyone else has displayed or advocated that. I really think it is you who is confusing the two terms which are only superficially related in the English language anyway. Incidentally, “material” in English also refers to fabric, and although I am a materialist, I am not a seamstress, in case you might be confused on this point.

I was  referring only to materialism as , once again, a philosophy , paradigm or meta-pardigm in science , as a world view , as a life style ...though : do not confuse it with the rest .
Do not confuse science with materialism in that sense , once again .
Materialism in that sense you can trace back to the medieval time as an Eurocentric historic cultural  ...rebellion against the bullshit , excuse my French, of the medieval church.

You happened to provide that link concerning the "fact " that ensemble of neurons can somehow generate thoughts, via some "rythmic harmonious "  dances of theirs , metaphorically speaking then = oscillations, synchronisations,vibrations  ... ...

I said : that's just the materialistic interpretation of those scientific experiments , in the same sense that the "fact " that human consciousness is an "emergent " property from the evolved complexity of the human brain ....is : magical : Got that ,sweetie ?

If not , try to re-read what i used to say in that regard at least in my earlier posts = I see no point in repeating myself over and over again , in that regard at least .



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PS Why do you not call David Cooper or dlorde "darling"? They are probably younger and cuter than I am, and I hear alancalverd is totally hot.

haha

See above , sweetie : sweet dreams in that regard as well then , Alice


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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #177 on: 15/09/2013 19:16:00 »
I have the weird feeling i have been talking to ..."grown-up " kids ...not only to machines ...on a presumed science forum, ironically enough .
I have enough kids of my own i have to take care of , deal with , ...

I do love them so much though  : my affection goes thus only to them and to my other beloved ones as well .

I am against adoption though haha : i have no room ,patience or intention of adopting you , guys : there are plenty of foster homes and institutions  ...out there .

Good luck indeed .
« Last Edit: 15/09/2013 19:19:27 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #178 on: 16/09/2013 00:04:18 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg418329#msg418329

When you will be grown-up and mature enough , you will be able to acknowledge the fact that science , for example , covers only a tiny apparent side of reality , and that human reason, logic ....have also limits + there might be other levels of reality out there we have absolutely no "idea " about = can you a-priori exclude any possibility or probability like that ?



No, I cannot exclude that possibility, but without some means to detect those alternate realities, I have no way of distinguishing between something related to them which is true, and something that isn't true. But you're welcome to imagine any alternate reality you like.

I don't think anyone has really tried to make you change your views. Some, myself included, tried to force you to define or expound on terms you use constantly in your arguments, to no avail. And I at times I did not see how your conclusions followed your premises, regardless of whether I agreed with either. It's the process in your reasoning that drives me nuts, not the outcome.

If "science proper" refers to science that includes or takes into account supernatural objects or supernatural forces that cannot be studied by any materialist, physical process, you are the only one I know advocating for it.

I do know of controversial figures in science who challenge traditional explanations and suggest other models. Sheldrake comes to mind. He studied ESP and  his "morphic resonance" theory claims that some kind of energy field directs the growth and development of living things. He does not, apparently, think differential gene expression can do the job.  I think his theory is unlikely, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it.  But even he does not describe it as an immaterial or supernatural process, he just says we haven't figured out a way yet to detect this field. Although he hasn't abandoned materialism, he is, never the less, faced with the same problem as yours - without anyway to detect, to measure, to obtain any information about his morphic field, it remains just an imaginary speculation as far as science is concerned.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 12:50:33 by cheryl j »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #179 on: 16/09/2013 00:44:55 »
We were born that way : there is no reason to pretend to be modest about something you have no merit in , or something you had no say in , something you had no input in whatsoever............

Nah! Nobody was ever born this hot. It takes gallons of beer and years of patient selfabuse to cultivate a mind and a physique like mine. To say nothing of the moustache
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #180 on: 16/09/2013 17:26:55 »
We were born that way : there is no reason to pretend to be modest about something you have no merit in , or something you had no say in , something you had no input in whatsoever............

Nah! Nobody was ever born this hot. It takes gallons of beer and years of patient selfabuse to cultivate a mind and a physique like mine. To say nothing of the moustache

Oh , no , you might have landed on the right address , Eagle , in order to be able to be taught some humility    haha : I used to be called Mr.Casanova or Mr.Don Juan and still am : I was also a Don Quichotte sometimes trying to "save " humanity or change it " ...I left memorable significant traces in most of Europe and some other earth corners ,both literally and figuratively : i cannot even count the broken hearts i left behind , the amazing things i did , experience ...i am not so proud of ...
When it comes to "self-abuse " , tons of beer , strong drink, cocke, marijuana , hash , xtc ...use : i was called the champ of just that i could use all that in a single night without ever losing control ...Sometimes we used to party for a period of more or less 48 hours straight non-stop ....

Oh, man , i will tell you all about it , if you would insist on knowing : you would hear about things i have done, experienced , felt , risked ....that might blow your mind away , things that might be beyond your imagination ...really and seriously : no exaggerations or bluff whatsoever ....I might even not give myself justice in that regard ...

P.S.: Be aware of the long term consequences of all those drugs, alcohol use , on brain body and mind : i kissed all that goodbye : i have been having a healthy life via good diet , sport , creative work ...love ...discipline ...meditation...

Not to mention that being born the way we were  is not something we can pretend to have any merit in , once again .
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 17:30:17 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #181 on: 16/09/2013 18:19:50 »
Good work, folks! Thanks for keeping him busy and out of the real world.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #182 on: 16/09/2013 18:53:24 »
Quote from: DonQuichotte link=topic=48746.msg418329#msg418329

When you will be grown-up and mature enough , you will be able to acknowledge the fact that science , for example , covers only a tiny apparent side of reality , and that human reason, logic ....have also limits + there might be other levels of reality out there we have absolutely no "idea " about = can you a-priori exclude any possibility or probability like that ?
Quote
No, I cannot exclude that possibility, but without some means to detect those alternate realities, I have no way of distinguishing between something related to them which is true, and something that isn't true. But you're welcome to imagine any alternate reality you like

Ok, i know it's extremely difficult , elusive , deceptive .... to differentiate between real supernatural or paranormal phenomena and simple illusions, delusions, fairy tales , myths ...science alone cannot really help us in doing just that .

But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye  ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are   whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .

Just take a look at the following , for the time being at least : i will try to walk you through these amazing dimentions step by step , simply because you cannot handle the whole package at the same time :no one can for that matter :

I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind ,among other things as well,  for example, but not as powerful as those of some of my relatives though , you would be amazed at the incredible powers of the human mind , if only one would try to develop them  = The sky is not even the limit :

I think that human consciousness does not only hold THE  key to unveiling major mysteries in this universe , but also that  the most important and next level of human evolution at the level of consciousness  is yet to be undertaken by humanity as a whole  , while grasping its incredible implications for all humanity :

Human consciousness that has been deliberately ignored and marginalized by materialism in science , for obvious reasons: there can be nothing more important for human growth, evolution, progress and much more beyond all that than approaching the mysteries of human consciousness though .

I searched for a great docu concerning the CIA and KGB psi projects telepathy during the cold war , i did not find it on youtube ,but i do have in my pc , concerning what was called remote viewing : the psychic trained ability of some people ,especially creative artists , employed by the CIA to spy on the enemy from a remote distance , a large distance in fact , via their minds = it is still a huge controversy in science , the latter seems to have no answers to .

Just see this instead then :

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/telepathy/

I will give you other links concerning similar phenomena of the human mind ,another time then .


............

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I don't think anyone has really tried to make you change your views. Some, myself included, tried to force you to define or expound on terms you use constantly in your arguments, to no avail. And I at times I did not see how your conclusions followed your premises, regardless of whether I agreed with either. It's the process in your reasoning that drives me nuts, not the outcome.

Cooper reacted the way he did , simply because i did not wanna buy his exclusive mechanical world views ,concerning human consciousness at least , so .
Besides, when it comes to immaterial processes such as human consciousness or the nature, mystery or power of the human mind ,you cannot expect from me or from anyoneelse for that matter  to deliver some reasoning in that regard  .
The human consciousness or mind remain the hard problem in science and elsewhere nobody has ever been able so far to "crack the secrets or codes of " , i am no exception to that rule  .

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If "science proper" refers to science that includes or takes into account supernatural objects or supernatural forces that cannot be studied by any materialist, physical process, you are the only one I know advocating for it.

No, science proper must confine itself to matter and to material processes ,but materialists pretend to make their materialistic world views and approaches ...scientific, by reducing everything to just matter  , that's the problem mainly : major example ? : the materialistic "scientific " approach of human consciousness .

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I do know of controversial figures in science who challenge traditional explanations and suggest other models. Sheldrake comes to mind. He studied ESP and  his "morphic resonance" theory claims that some kind of energy field directs the growth and development of living things. He does not, apparently, think differential gene expression can do the job.  I think his theory is unlikely, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it.  But even he does not describe it as an immaterial or supernatural process, he just says we haven't figured out a way yet to detect this field. Although he hasn't abandoned materialism, he is, never the less, faced with the same problem as yours - without anyway to detect, to measure, to obtain any information about his morphic field, it remains just an imaginary speculation as far as science is concerned.

Yeah , i "know " that guy you mentioned here above : i do happen to be downloading his " The evolution of telepathy " video by the way : Rupert Sheldrake .
That's the problem with materialists , instead of trying to look for alternative non-materialistic explanations for phenomena or processes they cannot approach via their materialistic world views, via their meta-paradigm in science or via their materialistic approaches, they just resort to what a scientist has called " Promissory messianic materialism " =  materialism in science will be able some day to find explanations for consciousness ....= just denial , just a sophisticated dishonest exit -strategy , simply because materialism in science , per definition, will never be able to approach the immaterial consciousness ...for obvious reasons that have to do with the very nature of materialism itself .
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 19:06:55 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #183 on: 16/09/2013 19:04:21 »
Good work, folks! Thanks for keeping him busy and out of the real world.
[/quote]

haha

We're all both in this "real " world or "real reality " and in the other , at the same time , without realising that fact= try to figure that out via your mechanical magical world view then  .

The "real " world or "real reality "  is just an illusion though .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #184 on: 16/09/2013 19:12:52 »
Make no mistake, please, folks : I do love science ,more than you can  ever imagine,you have no idea .
 I just reject materialism as a world view in ...science , that's all :
To illustrate my point once again, i am gonna display this interesting article on the subject , once again , even though i do not agree with the assumption there that humans are able to know the ...future : not in the sense explained by that article at least :


Why Consciousness is Not the Brain
IN THIS ISSUE FALL 2010

Fall 2010 Issue

 
The Science of Premonitions
Author: Larry Dossey

Excerpted from The Science of Premonition: How Knowing the Future Can Help Us Avoid Danger, Maximize Opportunities and Create a Better Life by Larry Dossey. Copyright 2009 by Larry Dossey. Reprinted by permission of the author.

Physicist Freeman Dyson believes the cosmos is suffused with consciousness, from the grandest level to the most minute dimensions. If it is, why aren’t we aware of it?
For more articles about "Science", Click Here

“We don’t know who first discovered water, but we can be sure that it wasn’t a fish,” the old saw reminds us. Continual exposure to something reduces our awareness of its presence. Over time, we become blind to the obvious. We swim in a sea of consciousness, like a fish swims in water. And like a fish that has become oblivious to his aqueous environment, we have become dulled to the ubiquity of consciousness.

Why Consciousness is Not the Brain - The Science of Premonitions - Larry Dossey

In science, we have largely ignored how consciousness manifests in our existence. We’ve done this by assuming that the brain produces consciousness, although how it might do so has never been explained and can hardly be imagined. The polite term for this trick is “emergence.” At a certain stage of biological complexity, evolutionary biologists claim, consciousness pops out of the brain like a rabbit from a magician’s hat. Yet this claim rests on no direct evidence whatsoever. As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry A. Fodo flatly states, “Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. So much for our philosophy of consciousness.”

In spite of the complete absence of evidence, the belief that the brain produces consciousness endures and has ossified into dogma. Many scientists realize the limitations of this belief. One way of getting around the lack of evidence is simply to declare that what we call consciousness is the brain itself. That way, nothing is produced, and the magic of “emergence” is avoided. As astronomer Carl Sagan expressed his position, “My fundamental premise about the brain is that its workings – what we sometimes call mind – are a consequence of anatomy and physiology, and nothing more.” Nobelist Francis Crick agreed, saying “[A] person’s mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, and the atoms, ions, and molecules that make up and influence them.”

This “identity theory” – mind equals brain – has led legions of scientists and philosophers to regard consciousness as an unnecessary, superfluous concept. Some go out of their way to deny the existence of consciousness altogether, almost as if they bear a grudge against it. Tufts University cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett says, “We’re all zombies. Nobody is conscious.” Dennett includes himself in this extraordinary claim, and he seems proud of it.

Consciousness can operate beyond the brain, body, and the present, as hundreds of experiments and millions of testimonials affirm. Consciousness cannot, therefore, be identical with the brain.

Others suggest that there are no mental states at all, such as love, courage, or patriotism, but only electrochemical brain fluxes that should not be described with such inflated language. They dismiss thoughts and beliefs for the same reasons. This led Nobel neurophysiologist Sir John Eccles to remark that “professional philosophers and psychologists think up the notion that there are no thoughts, come to believe that there are no beliefs, and feel strongly that there are no feelings.” Eccles was emphasizing the absurdities that have crept into the debates about consciousness. They are not hard to spot. Some of the oddest experiences I recall are attending conferences where one speaker after another employs his consciousness to denounce the existence of consciousness, ignoring the fact that he consciously chose to register for the meeting, make travel plans, prepare his talks, and so on.

Many scientists concede that there are huge gaps in their knowledge of how the brain makes consciousness, but they are certain they will be filled in as science progresses. Eccles and philosopher of science Karl Popper branded this attitude “promissory materialism.” “[P]romissary materialism [is] a superstition without a rational foundation,” Eccles says. “[It] is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists . . .who confuse their religion with their science. It has all the features of a messianic prophecy.”

The arguments about the origins and nature of consciousness are central to premonitions. For if the promissory materialists are correct – if consciousness is indeed identical with the brain – the curtain closes on premonitions. The reason is that the brain is a local phenomenon – i.e., it is localized to the brain and body, and to the present. This prohibits premonitions in principle, because accordingly the brain cannot operate outside the body and the here-and-now. But consciousness can operate beyond the brain, body, and the present, as hundreds of experiments and millions of testimonials affirm. Consciousness cannot, therefore, be identical with the brain.

In science, we have largely ignored how consciousness manifests in our existence. We’ve done this by assuming that the brain produces consciousness, although how it might do so has never been explained and can hardly be imagined.

These assertions are not hyperbolic, but conservative. They are consistent with the entire span of human history, throughout which all cultures of which we have record believed that human perception extends beyond the reach of the senses. This belief might be dismissed as superstition but for the fact that modern research has established its validity beyond reasonable doubt to anyone whose reasoning has not clotted into hardened skepticism. To reiterate a single example – the evidence supporting foreknowledge – psi researchers Charles Honorton and Diane Ferrari examined 309 precognition experiments carried out by sixty-two investigators involving 50,000 participants in more than two million trials. Thirty percent of these studies were significant in showing that people can describe future events, when only five percent would be expected to demonstrate such results by chance. The odds that these results were not due to chance was greater than 10 to the twentieth power to one.

One of the first modern thinkers to endorse an outside-the-brain view of consciousness was William James, who is considered the father of American psychology. In his 1898 Ingersoll Lecture at Harvard University, James took a courageous stand against what he called “the fangs of cerebralism and the idea that consciousness is produced by the brain. He acknowledged that arrested brain development in childhood can lead to mental retardation, that strokes or blows to the head can abolish memory or consciousness, and that certain chemicals can change the quality of thought. But to consider this as proof that the brain actually makes consciousness, James said, is irrational.

Why Consciousness is Not the Brain - The Science of Premonitions - Larry Dossey

Why irrational? Consider a radio, an invention that was introduced during James’s lifetime, and which he used to illustrate the mind-brain relationship. If one bangs a radio with a hammer, it ceases to function. But that does not mean that the origin of the sounds was the radio itself; the sound originated from outside it in the form of an electromagnetic signal. The radio received, modified, and amplified the external signal into something recognizable as sound. Just so, the brain can be damaged in various ways that distort the quality of consciousness – trauma, stroke, nutritional deficiencies, dementia, etc. But this does not necessarily mean the brain “made” the consciousness that is now disturbed, or that consciousness is identical to the brain.

British philosopher Chris Carter endorses this analogy. Equating mind and brain is irrational, he says as listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music.

To update the analogy, consider a television set. We can damage a television set so severely that we lose the image on the screen, but this doesn’t prove that the TV actually produced the image. We know that David Letterman does not live behind the TV screen on which he appears; yet the contention that brain equals consciousness is as absurd as if he did.

My conclusion is that consciousness is not a thing or substance, but is a nonlocal phenomenon. Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite. If something is nonlocal, it is not localized to specific points in space, such as brains or bodies, or to specific points in time, such as the present.

The radio and TV analogies can be misleading, however, because consciousness does not behave like an electromagnetic signal. Electromagnetic (EM) signals display certain characteristics. The farther away they get from their source, the weaker they become. Not so with consciousness; its effects do not attenuate with increasing distance. For example, in the hundreds of healing experiments that have been done in both humans and animals, healing intentions work equally well from the other side of the earth as at the bedside of the sick individual. Moreover, EM signals can be blocked partially or completely, but the effects of conscious intention cannot be blocked by any known substance. For instance, sea water is known to block EM signals completely at certain depths, yet experiments in remote viewing have been successfully carried out beyond such depths, demonstrating that the long-distance communication between the involved individuals cannot depend on EM-type signals. In addition, EM signals require travel time from their source to a receiver, yet thoughts can be perceived simultaneously between individuals across global distances. Thoughts can be displaced in time, operating into both past and future. In precognitive remoteviewing experiments – for example, the hundreds of such experiments by the PEAR Lab at Princeton University – the receiver gets a future thought before it is ever sent. Furthermore, consciousness can operate into the past, as in the experiments involving retroactive intentions. Electromagnetic signals are not capable of these feats. From these differences, we can conclude that consciousness is not an electric signal.

Then what is it? My conclusion is that consciousness is not a thing or substance, but is a nonlocal phenomenon. Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite. If something is nonlocal, it is not localized to specific points in space, such as brains or bodies, or to specific points in time, such as the present. Nonlocal events are immediate; they require no travel time. They are unmediated; they require no energetic signal to “carry” them. They are unmitigated; they do not become weaker with increasing distance. Nonlocal phenomena are omnipresent, everywhere at once. This means there is no necessity for them to go anywhere; they are already there. They are infinite in time as well, present at all moments, past present and future, meaning they are eternal.

Researcher Dean Radin, whose presentiment experiments provide profound evidence for future knowing, believes that the nonlocal events in the subatomic, quantum domain underlie the nonlocal events we experience at the human level. He invokes the concept of entanglement as a bridging hypothesis uniting the small- and large-scale happenings. Quantum entanglement and quantum nonlocality are indeed potent possibilities that may eventually explain our nonlocal experiences, but only further research will tell. Meanwhile, there is a gathering tide of opinion favoring these approaches. As physicist Chris Clarke, of the University of Southampton, says, “On one hand, Mind is inherently non-local. On the other, the world is governed by a quantum physics that is inherently non-local. This is no accident, but a precise correspondence ...[Mind and the world are] aspects of the same thing...The way ahead, I believe, has to place mind first as the key aspect of the universe...We have to start exploring how we can talk about mind in terms of a quantum picture...Only then will we be able to make a genuine bridge between physics and physiology.”

When scientists muster the courage to face this evidence unflinchingly, the greatest superstition of our age – the notion that the brain generates consciousness or is identical with it – will topple. In its place will arise a nonlocal picture of the mind.

Whatever their explanation proves to be, the experiments documenting premonitions are real. They must be reckoned with. And when scientists muster the courage to face this evidence unflinchingly, the greatest superstition of our age – the notion that the brain generates consciousness or is identical with it – will topple. In its place will arise a nonlocal picture of the mind. This view will affirm that consciousness is fundamental, omnipresent and eternal – a model that is as cordial to premonitions as the materialistic, brain-based view is hostile.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 19:14:31 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #185 on: 16/09/2013 22:01:13 »
Rather than rehash all the old debunking of precognition/premonition, here's a link that deals with most of that mentioned.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #186 on: 16/09/2013 22:07:46 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
Easy enough to say, but can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us? so far we've seen no indication of any special powers or intellect.

Quote
I searched for a great docu concerning the CIA and KGB psi projects telepathy during the cold war , i did not find it on youtube ,but i do have in my pc , concerning what was called remote viewing : the psychic trained ability of some people ,especially creative artists , employed by the CIA to spy on the enemy from a remote distance , a large distance in fact , via their minds = it is still a huge controversy in science , the latter seems to have no answers to .
The military remote viewing programs were shut down as 'too unreliable to be of any military value'. See Remote Viewing for more.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2013 22:10:34 by dlorde »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #187 on: 17/09/2013 15:33:28 »

Ok, i know it's extremely difficult , elusive , deceptive .... to differentiate between real supernatural or paranormal phenomena and simple illusions, delusions, fairy tales , myths ...science alone cannot really help us in doing just that .

But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye  ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are   whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .



Since you are fond of stories, I will share one with you. Of course we both know stories and analogies are not proof of anything, just illustrative, but I hope this will illustrate why how one knows something can be as important as what one knows.

The was an internet scam in which a person would send out a large number of emails claiming to be able to predict the results of boxing matches based on inside information he had about the fighters. To prove his ability he would make a prediction about a boxing match that was taking place next week. To half of the recipients he would say boxer A would be the winner and the other half, Boxer B. If Boxer A won, he sent out another email to those for whom he had predicted Boxer A. To half of those, he said the winner of the next match would be Boxer C, and to the other half Boxer D. If Boxer D won, he emailed those for whom he predicted Boxer D and made another prediction -I’m sure you see where I am going with this. After a series of several amazing “correct” predictions, his final email recipients received an email about an upcoming fight in which the odds were ten to one against Boxer G, but he was quite sure Boxer  G would win. If they wished, they could bet on it, or, since there wasn't much time, he would be happy to make the bet for them with his bookie, who was also giving an additional 2:1 odds on top.  Just wire him $5,000.  Hard to believe anyone would fall for this, but $100,000 on a $5,000 bet is a lot of money and he was right again and again! The scammer only needed one person to take the bait in order to walk away with an easy $5,000, one person who was over-impressed that this person had been so consistently right, without wondering why or how he knew what he claimed to know.

You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos as an individual or a species, and relieves our anxiety about mortality or the meaning of life and our sense of powerlessness, is a kind of deception, intentional or not. How one knows something, the kind of evidence and its verifiability and its transparency to others, is sometimes ones only defense against this.
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 16:38:41 by cheryl j »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #188 on: 17/09/2013 16:33:03 »
You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos as an individual or a species, and relieves our anxiety about mortality or the meaning of life and our sense of powerlessness, is a kind of deception, intentional or not. How one knows something, the kind of evidence and its verifiability and its transparency to others, is sometimes ones only defense against this.

Yes, indeed. This kind of information-poor situation can also happen where fraud isn't necessarily involved, and it's even more difficult to spot. For example, in finance. Tables are often published of the most successful brokers, or portfolio and fund managers, year-on-year. It's tempting to pick the ones that have been consistently among the top performers for the last few years; but let's suppose their performance is not due to their talents, but is entirely random... consider looking at the top 20% of a group of 1250 fund managers.

At the end of year 1, there will be 250 in the top 20%. Of these, roughly 50 will be in the top 20% at the end of year 2, around 10 in year 3 and around 2 in year 4. But if you then picked the 2 managers who had been consistently in the top 20% over the last 4 years, you'd be likely to have no more success than if you'd picked at random.

Which is why it should come as no surprise when selections by monkeys or throwing darts at a list often do as well or better than 'top' portfolio managers... Past performance is truly no guarantee of future performance (this is not to say that there aren't good investors & managers out there, but that it's easy to be fooled by relative performance data).

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #189 on: 17/09/2013 18:06:46 »
You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos.....

Brilliant scam, and reminds me of a doctor who always predicted the sex of a baby with 100% accuracy. He would tell the newly pregnant mother "it will be X" and write "Y" in his diary. Then if it turned out to be Y and mother complained, he would say "but you must be mistaken - look, I made a note in my diary!"
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #190 on: 17/09/2013 18:19:43 »
Rather than rehash all the old debunking of precognition/premonition, here's a link that deals with most of that mentioned.

I don't care about that : i , myself, do not agree much with that premonition stuff , as i clearly stated .

What the author of the article  said about materialism in science is my main point in posting that article :  he said true things about materialism as an ossified promissory dogmatic messianic religion in science,so .

Why don't you address just that then ?




« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:58:30 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #191 on: 17/09/2013 18:31:23 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
Easy enough to say, but can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us? so far we've seen no indication of any special powers or intellect.

Pathetic,Tragic-hilarious  :

 The behaviour of people who suddenly do realise they have been believing in a lie (The materialistic magical lie , in this case ) ,living a lie ...can't be more typical than this one of yours = very predictable .

Ok, i am a dummy then, satisfied ? Now that we have proven this fact to be true haha , can you disprove what i or at least what  that above mentioned article of that physicist said about the magical irrational materialism ?
I think you are just trying so desperately to derail the discussion concerning the magical phony unscientific nature of materialism you believe in , by attacking people this vicious tragic-hilarious silly pathetic way , by making me angry :

Haha : And all that coming from a guy who said he turned his back on the christian magical superstitions , just to replace them by another kindda magic : the materialistic one he pretends it to be "scientific " haha
Typical Freudian self-projections , i see = are you hurt , deep down , by the fact that you witnessed the massacre of your beloved irrational magical materialism ? haha , that's why you act now like a total mechanical jerk as a reaction , aren't you and don't you  ?
Really ? Are you gonna now resort to acting like a jerk ,by imitating that other jerk , just because you obviously are incapable of looking at the universe beyond your key hole or tunnel vision magical materialistic mechanical phony irrational faith  ? = you can deliver no interesting insights , ideas , ....beyond that materialistic magic of yours , you happen to believe in without any shadow of a proof ,not even remotely close ...

And you dare to talk about the intellect of other people ? haha : how hypocrit and lowest of the low can you ever be or become ? : Tragic-hilarious pathetic silly psychological self-defense animal mechanical survival oe self-preservation instinct of yours .
Really ? and that coming from a guy who said that human intellect is no big deal .
Besides, you might be overestimating your capacity of judgement   as well,obviously  .
Reminds me of the story i told you earlier , you seem not to have been able to learn anything from, concerning how Albert Camus was attacked that vicious way by Sartre and co., by expressing bold explicit doubts concerning the intellect and integrity of Camus , just because the latter was so right about displaying the obvious  hypocrit paradoxical contradictory nakedness of existentialism represented by Sartre and co ...hahah ....wao ...
Once again, instead of discussing people,attacking people,  try to address what they have to say , Deal ? Otherwise , just have the decency to shut up = just shut up in fact : your magical materialism puts you in no position to deliver any interesting ideas or insights ...

Well, dude : the emperor's really naaaaaaked , even a child can see that obvious nakedness of his: you cannot disprove the truth concerning that magical bankrupt dishonest phony materialism in science by just attacking people who happen to tell the naked truth about that despicable materialism that's in fact lower than christinaity itself , that's even a degenerate form of christianity ,as Nietzsche used to say about .....humanism .

P.S.: I have to demonstrate nothing to you , especially when we would consider the fact that you turned out to be a narrow-minded ossified dogmatic messianic materialistic irrational believer who happens to believe in magic = the "emergence " trick = that excludes you  a-priori from any serious discussions regarding telepathy or any other paranormal phenomena for that matter .

Quote
Quote
I searched for a great docu concerning the CIA and KGB psi projects telepathy during the cold war , i did not find it on youtube ,but i do have in my pc , concerning what was called remote viewing : the psychic trained ability of some people ,especially creative artists , employed by the CIA to spy on the enemy from a remote distance , a large distance in fact , via their minds = it is still a huge controversy in science , the latter seems to have no answers to .
The military remote viewing programs were shut down as 'too unreliable to be of any military value'. See Remote Viewing for more.

I know : i searched for a docu on the matter ,i do happen to have in my pc , on youtube for Cheryl , but i couldn't find it .

Those remote viewing experiments did deliver some good results though during the cold war , sometimes, but they were shut down after the cold war , so they say : but , they were used against Saddam,for example , though ...

They might have been continuing to conduct research on the matter , as a matter of secrecy , you are not allowed to know about .

The point is : they did book some success though : How ? That remains a big controversy in science .
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:24:02 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #192 on: 17/09/2013 19:20:58 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
..can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us?

I have to demonstrate nothing to you , especially when we would consider the fact that you turned out to be a narrow-minded ossified dogmatic messianic materialistic irrational believer who happens to believe in magic = the "emergence " trick = that excludes you  a-priori from any serious discussions regarding telepathy or any other paranormal phenomena for that matter .
I'll take that as a 'no'. So we apply Hitchen's Razor ("What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence").

Quote
They might have been continuing to conduct research on the matter , as a matter of secrecy , you are not allowed to know about .
Sure, it's possible; but is it plausible that they're spending billions of dollars on surveillance satellites, spy planes, drones, and human assets just to cover up the success of their secret remote viewers? On the other hand, given the number of mistakes they make, they may still be trying it... :)

BTW - Great rant in that last post! :)
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:24:26 by dlorde »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #193 on: 17/09/2013 19:32:54 »
I have developed some relative telepathic powers in my mind...
..can you demonstrate these telepathic powers, e.g. to us?

I have to demonstrate nothing to you , especially when we would consider the fact that you turned out to be a narrow-minded ossified dogmatic messianic materialistic irrational believer who happens to believe in magic = the "emergence " trick = that excludes you  a-priori from any serious discussions regarding telepathy or any other paranormal phenomena for that matter .
I'll take that as a 'no'. So we apply Hitchen's Razor ("What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence").

Quote
They might have been continuing to conduct research on the matter , as a matter of secrecy , you are not allowed to know about .
Sure, it's possible; but is it plausible that they're spending billions of dollars on surveillance satellites, spy planes, drones, and human assets just to cover up the success of their secret remote viewers? On the other hand, given the number of mistakes they make, they may still be trying it... :)

BTW - Great rant in that last post! :)

Irrelevent to the very existence of telepathy ....and to other paranormal phenomena one can develop his/her  contacts with : humans are just in their childish stage of evolution at the level of consciousness as the next and most important form of evolution of them all , humanity is yet to undertake as a whole : This is just the beginning : and there might be some advances regarding the approaches of the paranormal booked by some powerful governments they keep hidden from the large public, for obvious reasons as well : you're too dumb to look beyond your materialistic magical nose to be able to grasp just that  .

I think you should read the rest of what i said here above i did just add .
I think you should look in the mirror first, regarding your stupid belief in that magical 'scientific " materialism as a degenerate form of christianity,the latter  you said you abandoned earlier  :

= You rejected christianity just to replace it by a lower magical belief = materialism , the latter as a degenerate form of christianity .

Are you afraid to look in the mirror  ? That's why you avoid just that , by accusing , judging and attacking your opponent ....haha : no wonder = very predictable indeed .

"People accuse and judge others , in order to avoid being accused or judged themselves ..."  Albert Camus , or in words to that same effect at least .

You know what : just spare me your magical mechanical key hole bullshit , simply because you have nothing interesting to offer beyond that ...

P.S.: You will get no response from me from now on = you do not deserve even just that .


« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 19:46:19 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #194 on: 17/09/2013 20:31:10 »

Ok, i know it's extremely difficult , elusive , deceptive .... to differentiate between real supernatural or paranormal phenomena and simple illusions, delusions, fairy tales , myths ...science alone cannot really help us in doing just that .

But, it takes hard work, life experiences, it takes flirting with death itself and looking it deep in the eye  ....it takes blood sweat and tears , joy , rise and fall ,setbacks and breakthroughs ....to just be able to develop that 6th sense that makes one sharp alert and awake sober lucid enough to know , not just believe in, there are   whole unimaginable dimentions and levels of reality out there our powerful developed mind can make us able to approach somehow , to some degree at least .



Since you are fond of stories, I will share one with you. Of course we both know stories and analogies are not proof of anything, just illustrative, but I hope this will illustrate why how one knows something can be as important as what one knows.

The was an internet scam in which a person would send out a large number of emails claiming to be able to predict the results of boxing matches based on inside information he had about the fighters. To prove his ability he would make a prediction about a boxing match that was taking place next week. To half of the recipients he would say boxer A would be the winner and the other half, Boxer B. If Boxer A won, he sent out another email to those for whom he had predicted Boxer A. To half of those, he said the winner of the next match would be Boxer C, and to the other half Boxer D. If Boxer D won, he emailed those for whom he predicted Boxer D and made another prediction -I’m sure you see where I am going with this. After a series of several amazing “correct” predictions, his final email recipients received an email about an upcoming fight in which the odds were ten to one against Boxer G, but he was quite sure Boxer  G would win. If they wished, they could bet on it, or, since there wasn't much time, he would be happy to make the bet for them with his bookie, who was also giving an additional 2:1 odds on top.  Just wire him $5,000.  Hard to believe anyone would fall for this, but $100,000 on a $5,000 bet is a lot of money and he was right again and again! The scammer only needed one person to take the bait in order to walk away with an easy $5,000, one person who was over-impressed that this person had been so consistently right, without wondering why or how he knew what he claimed to know.

You might say, well, that’s different. He was con artist, not a scientist or philosopher sincerely seeking the truth. But deception or self deception takes many forms. Wanting to believe something, and wanting others to believe it, because it is more exciting, unusual, comforting, appeals to our egos as an individual or a species, and relieves our anxiety about mortality or the meaning of life and our sense of powerlessness, is a kind of deception, intentional or not. How one knows something, the kind of evidence and its verifiability and its transparency to others, is sometimes ones only defense against this
.

What kindda silly "reasoning" is this then ? Unbelievable :
You're telling a particular ordinary story humanity has been experiencing some perfectly natural forms or other of since day 1= no big deal = makes part of the human nature one should try to be alert of , should try to improve ,recognize as such ... ,while you are trying to extract many unfounded unrelated generalisations from it it cannot deliver ....

Human deception and self-deceit are common knowledge since day 1 ,one must be aware of : you're behaving as if you have just discovered some breakthrough nobody but you knew,come on , be serious .

You can try to perform any ritual paradoxical distractory dances like that all you like   , but that cannot make the facts go away , no way:

Facts such as the fact that materialism is a kindda degenerate form of christianity in ...science , ironically enough .

Facts such as the fact that science can cover only its own limited realm : the natural reality , can cover only matter and material processes .

Facts such as the fact that the realm of science is just a tiny piece of reality , or just the apparent material side of reality .

Facts such as the fact that there are many other levels of reality out there ,science cannot , per definition, cover .

Facts such as the fact that there are indeed many illusions , delusions, fairy tales, myths ...out there , we should try not to confuse with the real paranormal, no matter how difficult that might be ...the real paranormal that's obviously out of reach of that famous Russell's tea pot argument ...

Other facts do not come to mind right now , due to the fact that i was outraged by the dishonesty hypocrisy denials projections ...of yet another disappointing  lunatic here : dlorde ...
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 20:38:33 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #195 on: 17/09/2013 20:32:31 »
A Greek says : All Greeks are ...liars haha : a famous paradox in logic.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #196 on: 17/09/2013 20:43:16 »
So much for our "rationa logical scientific " people here , my ass,excuse my French or Dutch, or just Arabic  ...haha
Unbelievable: it's like talking to a ...wall .
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 20:45:47 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #197 on: 17/09/2013 21:47:39 »
he said true things about materialism as an ossified promissory dogmatic messianic religion in science,so .

What don't you address just that then ?
OK. He's welcome to his opinion; but I will address that extract (it's an easy target and I've got time).

Quote
[P]romissary materialism [is] a superstition without a rational foundation,” Eccles says. “[It] is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists . . .who confuse their religion with their science. It has all the features of a messianic prophecy.”
The 'straw-ogre' argument. Scientists and materialists have a broad range of opinion. I'm sure there are a few fanatics, but the vast majority are just taking a pragmatic evidence-based approach. It's possible Eccles & Popper encountered a disproportionate number of fanatics in their rarified circles - they do tend to use their elbows and shout loudest. Empty vessels and all that.

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He acknowledged that arrested brain development in childhood can lead to mental retardation, that strokes or blows to the head can abolish memory or consciousness, and that certain chemicals can change the quality of thought. But to consider this as proof that the brain actually makes consciousness, James said, is irrational.
A good thing people don't consider it proof. It's just yet more circumstantial evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis.

Quote
Equating mind and brain is irrational, he says as listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music.
A good thing nobody is equating mind and brain; the consensus is that one is a function of the other. The radio analogy is popular but weak - if you examine a radio you'll see an antenna, receiver, decoder, amplifier, etc., all connected together to make a radio - if you examine the brain you'll see no structures that could be assigned to the 'reception' of consciousness; when you damage a radio, the announcer doesn't get a stutter, or have trouble reading, or lose her sense of self, etc. No, when a radio is damaged in various ways it acts consistently with a damaged radio. When the brain is damaged in various ways, it acts consistently with something that generates a mind and consciousness. It's possible that it isn't the case, but that's where empirically informed opinion is leaning until there's evidence to the contrary.

So, they make some provocative straw-man arguments. They're probably trying to catch the attention of people without the awkward mainstream predeliction for evidence-based hypotheses. When you're in a small minority without a good argument, you need to shout loud and fake targets to attack.

Dossey then concludes that consciousness is not a substance (did someone say it was?) but a 'nonlocal phenomenon', by which he means, vaguely, 'infinite':
Quote from: Dossey
Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite [no, it isn't] ...Nonlocal events are immediate; they require no travel time. They are unmediated; they require no energetic signal to “carry” them [nor can they carry information]. They are unmitigated; they do not become weaker with increasing distance. Nonlocal phenomena are omnipresent, everywhere at once. This means there is no necessity for them to go anywhere; they are already there. They are infinite in time as well, present at all moments, past present and future, meaning they are eternal.
In other words, he's stretching the very specific meaning of 'non-locality', used in QM, past breaking point, so as to get complete suspension of the laws of physics - because otherwise his whole shaky crate of an argument wouldn't even taxi, let alone get off the ground. IOW, pseudoscience.

Dossey's final mistake is to recruit Dean Radin to his case - whose hand-waving pseudoscientific appeals to QM weirdness to support his heavily criticised, unconvincing, and ultimately unreplicable 'prescience' experiments, are the final nails in the coffin of this ropey piece of special pleading.

As Dossey says, "Whatever their explanation proves to be, the experiments documenting premonitions are real. They must be reckoned with. And when scientists muster the courage to face this evidence unflinchingly, the greatest superstition of our age – the notion that the brain generates consciousness or is identical with it – will topple...." No argument with the first part - the experiments are (mostly) real enough. But the evidence has been examined 'unflinchingly' (well maybe some flinching at the worst of it), and in detail, with attempts to replicate, and nothing unusual has been found.

The notion may eventually topple, but so far, what evidence there is buttresses it, which suggests that the real superstition is that it's 'non-local' QM magic. Time will tell.

How's that? too harsh? not enough ad-hominems?
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 22:03:47 by dlorde »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #198 on: 17/09/2013 21:54:01 »
P.S.: You will get no response from me from now on ...
OK, let's see if the evidence supports that claim :)

p.s. not such a great rant that time; materialism as a degenerate form of Christianity doesn't really work...
« Last Edit: 17/09/2013 22:09:00 by dlorde »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #199 on: 18/09/2013 14:08:01 »


What kindda silly "reasoning" is this then ? .....

.....You're telling a particular ordinary story humanity has been experiencing some perfectly natural forms or other of since day 1= no big deal = makes part of the human nature one should try to be alert of , should try to improve ,recognize as such ....Human deception and self-deceit are common knowledge since day 1 ,one must be aware of...


As I prefaced my comments with, stories and analogies are not proof. They are only illustrative.

Um, I think you are actually arguing my own point here. And because there is such a tendency to want to believe things for reasons other than it is likely to be true, the kind of evidence, how ones knows what one knows, and the transparency of the process to others is important.

Ironically, there is not much difference between some of the paranormal, immaterial things you mention - remote viewing, ESP - and some  conventional material process proposed in a  research study in which the author simply refused to publish his data or explain his methodology. If I don't know how he got the results he got, I can't evaluate them. I just have to take his word for it.



« Last Edit: 18/09/2013 14:10:15 by cheryl j »