What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #850 on: 16/11/2013 21:20:36 »
The best approach is to look for the causation linkage. It doesn't really matter what kind of voodoo is used to support consciousness, because at some point it has to interact with the computer that is the brain, and that interaction is something that science should be fully able to examine and document, and although the complexity of the brain will ensure that progress will be very slow, it will be a task that can be completed over time.

What you do fail to understand so far, is as follows, despite all these lengthy kilometers of pages  :

How can the "unconscious " matter give rise to the immaterial consciousness that's irreducible to the material or to the physical biological ?

In other words :

How can physics and chemistry account for the mental or for the non-physical ?



No way .

Your voodoo doesn't make it any easier. The key problem is the interface, while the actual means by which the voodoo happens is a side issue.

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In short :

You're just chasing a ...mirage you do take for ...real , like a desert mirage that gets taken for water : no matter how long and how hard you would chase it , it will continue to be as elusive , as deceptive as ever , leaving you thirsty ,and leaving you dying as a result ...unless someone or something would rescue you by offering you some real water , the offered latter you continue to reject in favor of that elusive deceptive surreal absurd mirage of yours .

How irrational can you ever be indeed .

You're the one being irrational here. Your voodoo powered consciousness still has to interface with a machine, and at that point it must show up no matter how lacking in material it might be. If it did not interact, it would have no role and could not make the machine speak about it.

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #851 on: 16/11/2013 22:11:49 »
Hi, folks :

I will try to respond to the above , later on .

I will just say the following , for the time being at least though :

Thanks for your interesting insights i do appreciate indeed , althought they are just materialistic ones, once again...no wonder  :

The assumption that life is just a biological process ,for example, has more to do with materialism as a world view , than with science proper : take a look back at the past to find out about the roots of such assumption , and regarding the birth of materialism itself .


I don't really care what Descartes said. You could take any philosopher or scientist and trace their  intellectual influences all the way back to cave man ancestors, who undoubtedly had all sorts of false assumptions or explanations about the causes of things - that doesn't prove or negate anything. That's just a reverse appeal to authority.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #852 on: 17/11/2013 19:12:31 »
The best approach is to look for the causation linkage. It doesn't really matter what kind of voodoo is used to support consciousness, because at some point it has to interact with the computer that is the brain, and that interaction is something that science should be fully able to examine and document, and although the complexity of the brain will ensure that progress will be very slow, it will be a task that can be completed over time.

What you do fail to understand so far, is as follows, despite all these lengthy kilometers of pages  :

How can the "unconscious " matter give rise to the immaterial consciousness that's irreducible to the material or to the physical biological ?

In other words :

How can physics and chemistry account for the mental or for the non-physical ?



No way .

Your voodoo doesn't make it any easier. The key problem is the interface, while the actual means by which the voodoo happens is a side issue.

There might be some other totally different forms of causation out there , if we would take into consideration the fact that reality as a whole is not just materialial or physical, and hence the mental is irreducible to the physical .

Just answer the question then :
How can the "unconscious " matter  account  for  the immaterial consciousness , or at least how physics and chemistry can account for consciousness ?

Quote
Quote
In short :

You're just chasing a ...mirage you do take for ...real , like a desert mirage that gets taken for water : no matter how long and how hard you would chase it , it will continue to be as elusive , as deceptive as ever , leaving you thirsty ,and leaving you dying as a result ...unless someone or something would rescue you by offering you some real water , the offered latter you continue to reject in favor of that elusive deceptive surreal absurd mirage of yours .

How irrational can you ever be indeed .

You're the one being irrational here. Your voodoo powered consciousness still has to interface with a machine, and at that point it must show up no matter how lacking in material it might be. If it did not interact, it would have no role and could not make the machine speak about it.

Life is no machine , silly , and there might be some other totally different forms of causation underlying the laws of physics themselves , since consciousness is non-physical and is thus outside of the laws of physics .

Once again, how can physics and chemistry account for consciousness ?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #853 on: 17/11/2013 19:32:02 »
There might be some other totally different forms of causation out there , if we would take into consideration the fact that reality as a whole is not just materialial or physical, and hence the mental is irreducible to the physical.

Causation will still be causation.

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Just answer the question then :
How can the "unconscious " matter  account  for  the immaterial consciousness , or at least how physics and chemistry can account for consciousness ?

How do you know that matter isn't sentient? (Consciousness = sentience.) But hey, I don't care what it is that's sentient so much as I care about how the information system of the brain interacts with whatever it is that is sentient. It can be sentient matter/energy/spacefabrid, or it can be sentient geometry (magical emergence), or it can be something else in another realm entirely, but wherever and whatever it is, it still has to interact with the machine that is the brain, and that will show up.

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Life is no machine , silly

Life is precisely a machine. We will soon be manufacturing artificial plants which are understood 100% mechanistically.

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Once again, how can physics and chemistry account for consciousness ?

Matter could be sentient, so that isn't a problem at all. The problem is in how you interface between that and an information system in order to extract knowledge of consciousness from it.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #854 on: 17/11/2013 19:34:03 »
Hi, folks :

I will try to respond to the above , later on .

I will just say the following , for the time being at least though :

Thanks for your interesting insights i do appreciate indeed , althought they are just materialistic ones, once again...no wonder  :

The assumption that life is just a biological process ,for example, has more to do with materialism as a world view , than with science proper : take a look back at the past to find out about the roots of such assumption , and regarding the birth of materialism itself .


I don't really care what Descartes said. You could take any philosopher or scientist and trace their  intellectual influences all the way back to cave man ancestors, who undoubtedly had all sorts of false assumptions or explanations about the causes of things - that doesn't prove or negate anything. That's just a reverse appeal to authority.

All i was saying is that the machine metaphor in modern science ,regarding life and the rest of the universe is no empirical fact , but , just an Eurocentric belief assumption that dates  back all the way to Descartes thus who was so afraid of the inquisitions of the medieval church that he "left the mind " to the church .............while assuming that the human body, or any other living organisms for that matter ,  behaved or functioned like a machine did , since he was so fond of the machines hype of his own time, since he liked to make machines himself he used to compare to living organisms  ....since he  used to practice live vivisections on living  dogs , for example , the sick criminal that he was .
He did even practice that on  living  dogs by opening up the living  dogs' hearts, while putting his fingers inside of them  ,in order to describe for his students what it actually felt  like when the living dogs' hearts were still functioning  .
No wonder that the other modern machine analogy , the computer one , has been applied to life in general, and to DNA ,  nowadays , in this computer age .
Other future hypes like that might replace the former ones .
In short :
Eurocentric cultures and beliefs have been taken for granted as empirical facts .
« Last Edit: 17/11/2013 19:36:18 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #855 on: 19/11/2013 17:02:58 »
There might be some other totally different forms of causation out there , if we would take into consideration the fact that reality as a whole is not just materialial or physical, and hence the mental is irreducible to the physical.

Causation will still be causation.

Fundamental causation might turn out to be non-physical .

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Just answer the question then :
How can the "unconscious " matter  account  for  the immaterial consciousness , or at least how physics and chemistry can account for consciousness ?

How do you know that matter isn't sentient? (Consciousness = sentience.) But hey, I don't care what it is that's sentient so much as I care about how the information system of the brain interacts with whatever it is that is sentient. It can be sentient matter/energy/spacefabrid, or it can be sentient geometry (magical emergence), or it can be something else in another realm entirely, but wherever and whatever it is, it still has to interact with the machine that is the brain, and that will show up.

The brain is no machine , the immaterial consciousness might be interacting with the physical brain non-physically , as the most fundamental causation of them all might turn out to be non-physical as well .

How the non-physical consciousness does interact with the physical brain is still anybody's guess.

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Life is no machine , silly

Life is precisely a machine. We will soon be manufacturing artificial plants which are understood 100% mechanistically
.

LIfe is no machine , manufacturing plants artificially is no evidence for that : there might be some non-physical causation at work at the level of living organisms that underlies the laws of physics , the latter that cannot explain how living organisms are relatively self-organizing , how they can give rise to their own forms shapes ...
DNA or physics and chemistry alone cannot explain the latter .

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Quote
Once again, how can physics and chemistry account for consciousness ?

Matter could be sentient, so that isn't a problem at all. The problem is in how you interface between that and an information system in order to extract knowledge of consciousness from it.
[/quote]

That's anybody's guess so far .

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #856 on: 19/11/2013 18:02:00 »
Fundamental causation might turn out to be non-physical .

It's certainly non-material, but it doesn't matter what it is - it is there as something which governs interaction and it is of zero importance which realm you want to shove it in.

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The brain is no machine , the immaterial consciousness might be interacting with the physical brain non-physically , as the most fundamental causation of them all might turn out to be non-physical as well .

The brain is a machine. It is made up of lots of pieces of neural network which mechanistiaclly compute.

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LIfe is no machine , manufacturing plants artificially is no evidence for that : there might be some non-physical causation at work at the level of living organisms that underlies the laws of physics , the latter that cannot explain how living organisms are relatively self-organizing , how they can give rise to their own forms shapes ...
DNA or physics and chemistry alone cannot explain the latter .

That's just an assertion for which you have no evidence. It looks as if they can account for everything about life except for consciousness.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #857 on: 19/11/2013 19:13:55 »
Fundamental causation might turn out to be non-physical .

It's certainly non-material, but it doesn't matter what it is - it is there as something which governs interaction and it is of zero importance which realm you want to shove it in.

Try to say that to the false materialist mainstream 'scientific world view " , which has been assuming that reality as a whole is just material or physical , including consciousness ...
And it makes all the difference of the world to acknowledge the fact that reality as a whole cannot be just material or physical, including life , its emergence origins and evolution, the same goes for human langauge , the same goes for the non-physical consciousness and the rest + even evolution itself cannot be just biological as a result .
When science thus will realise and acknowledge the fact that reality as a whole is not just physical or material , including evolution, the mind or consciousness , and the rest , including matter itself (see modern physics regarding the latter ) , then, all our scientific knowledge , all sciences will have to change radically = you will have to throw most of your presumed scientific knowledge out of the window...

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The brain is no machine , the immaterial consciousness might be interacting with the physical brain non-physically , as the most fundamental causation of them all might turn out to be non-physical as well .

The brain is a machine. It is made up of lots of pieces of neural network which mechanistiaclly compute.

Living organisms , including brains , are no machines : to say they are, is just a materialist mechanical belief assumption, no empirical fact, not even remotely close . .
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LIfe is no machine , manufacturing plants artificially is no evidence for that : there might be some non-physical causation at work at the level of living organisms that underlies the laws of physics , the latter that cannot explain how living organisms are relatively self-organizing , how they can give rise to their own forms shapes ...
DNA or physics and chemistry alone cannot explain the latter .

That's just an assertion for which you have no evidence. It looks as if they can account for everything about life except for consciousness.

Since reality as a whole cannot be just material or physical , so , life and the rest , including matter itself , cannot be just material or physical, including evolution itself that cannot be , logically , just biological .

Physics and chemistry alone , DNA ...cannot explain morphogenesis , the self-organization or self-regeneration of  living organisms , cells ...cannot explain many things , not because we do not know how to explain them scientifically yet , but , simply because the physical is just one single side of the whole pic , the latter cannot be explained by just  the former,no way, logically  = physics and chemistry alone do explain ..nothing in fact : they just try to describe the physical side of reality ,while taking the latter for granted as the whole reality or as the whole pic : that's  an extremely idiotic absurd surreal , and  an  unscientific attempt to try to explain everyting = nothing , just via the physical side of reality , just via physics and chemistry thus > that physical "theory of everything " = theory of nothing thus.

You will , soon enough , have to reconsider most of what you think it is ...science , as a result = you have been mixing up science with materialism = mixing water with oil , so to speak = you have a lots of distilling  to do , by trying to distill the pure water of science proper, by rejecting the toxic materialist oil in it.

Good luck .
« Last Edit: 19/11/2013 19:18:34 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #858 on: 20/11/2013 19:31:25 »
Poor Dave :

You will have to bury  most of your presumed "scientific " knowledge that's been just materialist crap,just materialist false belief assumptions, no science  .

Dust to dust , ashes to ashes haha   amen.

My condolences.


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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #859 on: 21/11/2013 19:03:55 »
There might be some sort of more fundamental ,and totally different form of causation underlying the laws of physics themselves , such as some sort of formative causation, not necessarily that morphic resonance of Sheldrake :

http://www.amazon.com/Morphic-Resonance-Nature-Formative-Causation/dp/1594773173
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 21:18:24 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #860 on: 21/11/2013 21:20:24 »
Links for free ebooks on the subject removed by myself ,since no one here seems to deserve them: no more free links for free ebooks thus.

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #861 on: 21/11/2013 21:28:50 »
There might be some sort of more fundamental ,and totally different form of causation underlying the laws of physics themselves , such as some sort of formative causation, not necessarily that morphic resonance of Sheldrake :

http://www.amazon.com/Morphic-Resonance-Nature-Formative-Causation/dp/1594773173

And there might be a rhinoceros living in my basement, but if I have no evidence that there is, why would I keep running down stairs to check?

If you require science to prove the non-existence of things for which it has no evidence, you are requiring it to disprove an infinite number of propositions, an infinite number of times. 
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 21:30:45 by cheryl j »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #862 on: 22/11/2013 04:08:22 »
Here's an  interesting article on Qualia  if anyone is so inclined. (It is rather long, though.)  The clinical cases provide food for thought. Bonus fun experiments - relocate your nose.

Three Laws of Qualia -- What Neurology Tells Us about the Biological Functions of Consciousness, Qualia and the Self
by V. S. Ramachandran , William Hirstein

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.127.8130

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #863 on: 22/11/2013 09:54:16 »
I'm appalled at your laissez-faire attitude to pachyderms. I sincerely hope you don't have children. What sort of mother would leave the house without checking for rhinosceri, hippopotami and other dangerous beasts (including nonmaterial ones) in the basement?  Or does your babysitter tote a gun and a bottle of holy water?
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #864 on: 22/11/2013 15:39:22 »
Here's an  interesting article on Qualia  if anyone is so inclined.
...
Three Laws of Qualia -- What Neurology Tells Us about the Biological Functions of Consciousness, Qualia and the Self
by V. S. Ramachandran , William Hirstein
Thanks for that Cheryl, very interesting (I edited the link to point to the pdf document itself).

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #865 on: 22/11/2013 16:40:25 »
There might be some sort of more fundamental ,and totally different form of causation underlying the laws of physics themselves , such as some sort of formative causation, not necessarily that morphic resonance of Sheldrake :

http://www.amazon.com/Morphic-Resonance-Nature-Formative-Causation/dp/1594773173

And there might be a rhinoceros living in my basement, but if I have no evidence that there is, why would I keep running down stairs to check?

If you require science to prove the non-existence of things for which it has no evidence, you are requiring it to disprove an infinite number of propositions, an infinite number of times.


What are you talking about , sis ?

I would really appreciate it very much , if youn would try to think before responding, simply because you're not making any sense whatsoever ,while misunderstanding my words beyond any recognition  .

I said , since reality as a whole cannot be just physical or material, so, there might be some more fundamental and totally different forms of causation out there that might be underlying the laws of physics themselves : non-physical forms of causation at that , since physics and chemistry alone are just one single side of reality , and since the non-physical or mental that's irreducible to the physical ,is more fundamental that matter can ever be .

Non-physical or mental forms of causation  that are still unknown to the materialistic physical science : science proper might discover those mental forms of causation, when science will cease to be materialistic , and hence  when science will be open to the mental side of reality as such .


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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #866 on: 22/11/2013 16:51:54 »
I'm appalled at your laissez-faire attitude to pachyderms. I sincerely hope you don't have children. What sort of mother would leave the house without checking for rhinosceri, hippopotami and other dangerous beasts (including nonmaterial ones) in the basement?  Or does your babysitter tote a gun and a bottle of holy water?
[/quote]

Ho,ho : stop your silly wild speculations , cowboy :
I was just talking about the fact that reality cannot be just material or physical , and hence physics and chemistry are just one single side of reality , and a less fundamental one at that than the mental side of reality :
As a human being : you are both body and mind = your physical body is not all what there is to you , even though you do sound to me like some sort of a soulless  heartless insensitive  zombie haha , kidding : your non-physical or mental side does also exist = you are a whole inseparable package = physical body and non-physical soul = any  scientific attempts to try to explain you ,so to speak,  as a human being , must try to do just that by approaching both of your own inseparable dimentions  thus as a whole package : the physical and mental ones = to try to explain you, so to speak , as  a human being , as a living organism , just via one sigle dimention of you , just in terms of physics and chemistry is not only an idiotic absurd surreal ...you name it ....attempt , but it is also and mainly an unscientific   attempt to do so  .

Comprende , amigo ?

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #867 on: 22/11/2013 17:06:49 »
Here's an  interesting article on Qualia  if anyone is so inclined. (It is rather long, though.)  The clinical cases provide food for thought. Bonus fun experiments - relocate your nose.

Three Laws of Qualia -- What Neurology Tells Us about the Biological Functions of Consciousness, Qualia and the Self
by V. S. Ramachandran , William Hirstein

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.127.8130
[/quote]

Come on, be serious : consciousness or qualia can be explained by laws , similar to  those of Newton ? haha : just in terms of physics and chemistry ?

Well, for your info : any given sane average person does experience the fact that consciousness is non-physical , and hence escapes any laws of physics .

Ramachandran ? hahah  ( This scientist 's work is so interesting and fascinating that it is a complete waste that he tries to misinterpret it , just in materialistic mechanistic terms ,unfortunately enough )  , Dennett  haha  ...come on , be serious : those are the very embodiement of what 's really so wrong about science today = they are the core embodiement of that toxic false orthodox dogmatic materialistic secular religion in science , in the sense that the "mind is in the brain , memory is stored in the brain ..." : tragic-hilarious,in the sense that 'everything = nothing " can be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry ,including the mind or consciousness  .

That lunatic Dennet  even says that consciousness as such might not exist , that we might all be just zombies taking the illusion of consciousness for real ....

How lunatic  and zombie  can that weirdo ever be ...pathetic : taking his own materialist atheist belief assumptions for granted without question as science , no wonder that  the current mainstream "scientific world view " is materialist= false  : no wonder that irrational dogmatic fanatic atheist believers such as Dennett , Dawkins ...are just fanatic secular -religious  believers ,trying to 'fight ' against their other religious fanatic "reflections in the mirror " out there .
« Last Edit: 22/11/2013 17:09:25 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #868 on: 22/11/2013 18:17:13 »
That lunatic ... How lunatic ... weirdo ...pathetic

Current verbal-abuse statistics for DonQuichotte ...

Since joining this forum DonQ has posted the insult idiot* six times , stupid* five times, "fool" ( meaning idiot) five times , "lunatic" five times,  "genius" (sarcastically) eight times, "pathetic" (sarcastically) five times, "bullshit" five times and "moron" once,

[ Given DonQ's ideas of what is normal I'm not counting "weirdo" as an insult : from him it's a compliment ]

The frequency of DonQ's insults indicates the quality of his argument.

[ Surely there's a niche sadomasochistic forum out there where people would welcome your verbal-abuse Don ?  ].

BTW
DonQ has used the word "materialist" over 40 times and “irrational” 13 times.
[ it's clear you’re obsessionally flogging a dead horse here Don ].

[ * = wildcard ]
 
« Last Edit: 22/11/2013 18:24:33 by RD »

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Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #869 on: 22/11/2013 18:48:14 »
Quote from: thenakedscientists.com/forum
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We are all bound by law, and we cannot host material that contravenes the law.  This means we cannot, amongst other things, host material that is obscene, that constitutes harassment,  that promotes terrorism, that is racist, or that constitutes a breach of copyright.

Like posting links to pirate copies of ebooks.


Quote from: thenakedscientists.com/forum
2. Keep it friendly

Do not use insulting, aggressive, or provocative language.

Repetitive use of words such as “stupid” “idiot” “moron” “pathetic” sounds like insulting language to me.


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•The site is not for evangelising your own pet theory.

Repeatedly mentioning a the same topic, “materialist”,  (40+ times), sounds like evangelising to me.
« Last Edit: 22/11/2013 19:15:47 by RD »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #870 on: 22/11/2013 21:37:10 »



Come on, be serious : consciousness or qualia can be explained by laws , similar to  those of Newton ? haha : just in terms of physics and chemistry ?

Why is that so laughable? Regardless, of how you believe qualia are generated, should it be impossible to say what they do, or do not do; when they occur  and when they do not? Is there no rational statement, no consistent observation, one can make about them at all?

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Well, for your info : any given sane average person does experience the fact that consciousness is non-physical , and hence escapes any laws of physics .

A person may perceive electricity as non-physical as well, because he cannot see electrons or voltage. Without a microscope, he cannot "experience" the microorganisms that are making him ill. Do these things exist?

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Ramachandran ? hahah  ( This scientist 's work is so interesting and fascinating that it is a complete waste that he tries to misinterpret it , just in materialistic mechanistic terms ,unfortunately enough )  , Dennett  haha  ...come on , be serious : those are the very embodiement of what 's really so wrong about science today = they are the core embodiement of that toxic false orthodox dogmatic materialistic secular religion in science , in the sense that the "mind is in the brain , memory is stored in the brain ..." : tragic-hilarious,in the sense that 'everything = nothing " can be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry ,including the mind or consciousness  .

That lunatic Dennet  even says that consciousness as such might not exist , that we might all be just zombies taking the illusion of consciousness for real ....

Actually, in the article, Ramachandran disagrees with Dennett on certain things, and gives some explanation why we are not unconscious zombies, or how one would not expect the results he gets in certain experiments, if we were.

I'd be happy to hear your true and non-toxic, non orthodox-dogmatic-materialistic-secular,  interpretation of  Ramachandron's findings, and how he should have interpreted his results.  I asked you earlier about hallucinations, and how they would be generated by the immaterial consciousness, but you declined to discuss it.

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Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #871 on: 23/11/2013 02:35:28 »
I asked you earlier about hallucinations, and how they would be generated by the immaterial consciousness, but you declined to discuss it.

I asked something similar about optical illusions, but no explanation was forthcoming. 

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #872 on: 23/11/2013 12:41:38 »
In that article, Ramachandran & Hirstein are saying qualia provide data for choice, are irrevocable (you can't change how they feel) and require short term memory. For example, when touching a hotplate, there is a reflex withdrawal - no choice, no memory required, no qualia involved; but shortly after, the pain quale is experienced, which allows a choice of response to be considered. This suggests qualia are generated to give meaning to the input; the meaning arises from the associations triggered by the qualia, and it is this meaning that allows the selection of appropriate response (choice). So if a quale of pain triggers associations of reward in some context, it will have a different meaning than if it triggers associations of failure, and so the response will likely be different.

To be more speculative: The article also emphasises the multiple levels of feedback throughout the processing chain, so it also seems to me possible that the meaning(s) associated with a quale may modify the experienced quale through this feedback (bear in mind that a quale is not a 'thing', but just a generic label for a sensation). In other words, the same input may generate different qualia over time, depending, not just on the situational context, but also on feedback from the results of the choices made, which change the associated meaning, which in turn changes the qualia (e.g., you no longer feel that particular input as pain, or you feel it as a different sort of pain). So a particular quale is irrevocable, but not necessarily the consistent result of a particular input stimulus.
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 12:44:47 by dlorde »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #873 on: 23/11/2013 18:03:30 »

Come on, be serious : consciousness or qualia can be explained by laws , similar to  those of Newton ? haha : just in terms of physics and chemistry ?

Why is that so laughable? Regardless, of how you believe qualia are generated, should it be impossible to say what they do, or do not do; when they occur  and when they do not? Is there no rational statement, no consistent observation, one can make about them at all?

".... that qualia are different from other brain states in that they possess three functional characteristics, which we state in the form of ‘three laws of qualia ’ based on a loose analogy with Newton’s three laws of classical mechanics......"

To try to explain the mental in terms of physics and chemistry , in terms of physical laws ,or to try to reduce the mental to just the latter is just an extension of the materialist false conception of nature .Absurd .

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Well, for your info : any given sane average person does experience the fact that consciousness is non-physical , and hence escapes any laws of physics .

A person may perceive electricity as non-physical as well, because he cannot see electrons or voltage. Without a microscope, he cannot "experience" the microorganisms that are making him ill. Do these things exist?

Have you ever been slightly electrocuted ?

All i am saying is that consciousness is non-physical , as we all experience it to be , in total contrast with materialism which reduces consciousness to just biological processes .


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Ramachandran ? hahah  ( This scientist 's work is so interesting and fascinating that it is a complete waste that he tries to misinterpret it , just in materialistic mechanistic terms ,unfortunately enough )  , Dennett  haha  ...come on , be serious : those are the very embodiement of what 's really so wrong about science today = they are the core embodiement of that toxic false orthodox dogmatic materialistic secular religion in science , in the sense that the "mind is in the brain , memory is stored in the brain ..." : tragic-hilarious,in the sense that 'everything = nothing " can be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry ,including the mind or consciousness  .

That lunatic Dennet  even says that consciousness as such might not exist , that we might all be just zombies taking the illusion of consciousness for real ....

Actually, in the article, Ramachandran disagrees with Dennett on certain things, and gives some explanation why we are not unconscious zombies, or how one would not expect the results he gets in certain experiments, if we were.

I'd be happy to hear your true and non-toxic, non orthodox-dogmatic-materialistic-secular,  interpretation of  Ramachandron's findings, and how he should have interpreted his results.  I asked you earlier about hallucinations, and how they would be generated by the immaterial consciousness, but you declined to discuss it.


Grosso modo :
Well,  i said many times , that the material or the physical is just one single aspect or 1 single part of the whole pic , the mental is the other part , the mental that's more fundamental than the physical or the material, and hence physics and chemistry are just one single aspect of the whole pic , and a less fundamental part at that ,so, there might be some sort of formative or other totally different forms of causation out there which might be underlying the laws of physics themselves :

See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :
Darwin himself by the way was a convinced Lamarckian ,in the sense that he did accept that kind of inheritance , while even trying to deliver some theories to explain just that : the materialist neo-Darwinians such as Dennett , Dawkins ...do reject that Lamarckian view of evolution and inheritance , obviously .
See the following on the subject :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYU

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #874 on: 23/11/2013 18:14:44 »
The mind is not in the brain, memory is not stored in the brain ...and hence qualia is not  in  the brain .
It's the other way around in fact : the brain is in the mind, and the body is in the mind  .
The non-physical mind does affect the physical brain ,and vice versa ,how ? : that remains to be seen ...
The mind is more fundamental than matter can ever be , so, the mind might be underlying the laws of physics , not the other way around .

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #875 on: 23/11/2013 18:28:01 »


".... that qualia are different from other brain states in that they possess three functional characteristics, which we state in the form of ‘three laws of qualia ’ based on a loose analogy with Newton’s three laws of classical mechanics......"

To try to explain the mental in terms of physics and chemistry , in terms of physical laws ,or to try to reduce the mental to just the latter is just an extension of the materialist false conception of nature .Absurd .

Again, there's nothing inherently materialistic about observing what qualia do or do not do, when they are present and when they are not - unless, you believe (and I suspect you do) that the immaterial has no mechanisms, follows no laws. In which case, then every conceivable experiment is invalid, or at best inconclusive. Ironically, that includes any hypothetical experiment about any aspect of the immaterial, since one would have no way of knowing how other aspects of the immaterial might influence the experiment or manifest themselves that day. Your model predicts that everything is unintelligible, including the model itself. That's why your argument is irrational.
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 20:19:27 by cheryl j »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #876 on: 23/11/2013 18:57:05 »
In that article, Ramachandran & Hirstein are saying qualia provide data for choice, are irrevocable (you can't change how they feel) and require short term memory. For example, when touching a hotplate, there is a reflex withdrawal - no choice, no memory required, no qualia involved; but shortly after, the pain quale is experienced, which allows a choice of response to be considered. This suggests qualia are generated to give meaning to the input; the meaning arises from the associations triggered by the qualia, and it is this meaning that allows the selection of appropriate response (choice). So if a quale of pain triggers associations of reward in some context, it will have a different meaning than if it triggers associations of failure, and so the response will likely be different.

To be more speculative: The article also emphasises the multiple levels of feedback throughout the processing chain, so it also seems to me possible that the meaning(s) associated with a quale may modify the experienced quale through this feedback (bear in mind that a quale is not a 'thing', but just a generic label for a sensation). In other words, the same input may generate different qualia over time, depending, not just on the situational context, but also on feedback from the results of the choices made, which change the associated meaning, which in turn changes the qualia (e.g., you no longer feel that particular input as pain, or you feel it as a different sort of pain). So a particular quale is irrevocable, but not necessarily the consistent result of a particular input stimulus.

I also liked the part about qualia distinguishing real from imaginary, that if beliefs, ideas, memories, etc had qualia as vivid as those associated with perception, it would be impossible for the brain to distinguish between the idea of a monkey sitting in a chair and an actual one; thinking about eating a meal would seem equivalent to actually eating it.


"Therefore (real perceptual) qualia are protected; they are partially insulated from top-down influences....
....At the same time, however, you occasionally need to run a virtual reality simulation using less vivid qualia generated from memory representations in order to makeappropriate decisions in the absence of the objects which normally  provoke those qualia. The memories one normally evokes in this case are not fully laden with qualia; they have qualia which are just vivid enough to allow you to run the simulation. Ifthey possessed full-strength qualia, again, that would be  dangerous; indeed that’s called a hallucination. Presumably that’s what happens in temporal lobe seizures;some mechanism has gone awry, and the virtual reality simulation has now become like real sensory input. The simulation loses its revocability and generates pathological qualia."

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #877 on: 23/11/2013 18:59:16 »


".... that qualia are different from other brain states in that they possess three functional characteristics, which we state in the form of ‘three laws of qualia ’ based on a loose analogy with Newton’s three laws of classical mechanics......"

To try to explain the mental in terms of physics and chemistry , in terms of physical laws ,or to try to reduce the mental to just the latter is just an extension of the materialist false conception of nature .Absurd .

Again, there's nothing inherently materialistic about observing what qualia do or do not do, when they are present and when they are not - unless, you believe (and I suspect you do) that the immaterial has no mechanisms, follows no laws. In which case, then every conceivable experiment is invalid, or at best inconclusive. Ironically, that includes any hypothetical experiment about any aspect of the immaterial, since one would have no way of knowing how other aspects of the immaterial might influence the experiment or manifest themselves that day. Your model predicts that everything is unknowable, including itself. That's why your argument is irrational.
[/quote]



Come on, be serious : consciousness or qualia can be explained by laws , similar to  those of Newton ? haha : just in terms of physics and chemistry ?

Why is that so laughable? Regardless, of how you believe qualia are generated, should it be impossible to say what they do, or do not do; when they occur  and when they do not? Is there no rational statement, no consistent observation, one can make about them at all?

".... that qualia are different from other brain states in that they possess three functional characteristics, which we state in the form of ‘three laws of qualia ’ based on a loose analogy with Newton’s three laws of classical mechanics......"

To try to explain the mental in terms of physics and chemistry , in terms of physical laws ,or to try to reduce the mental to just the latter is just an extension of the materialist false conception of nature .Absurd .

Quote
Quote
Well, for your info : any given sane average person does experience the fact that consciousness is non-physical , and hence escapes any laws of physics .

A person may perceive electricity as non-physical as well, because he cannot see electrons or voltage. Without a microscope, he cannot "experience" the microorganisms that are making him ill. Do these things exist?

Have you ever been slightly electrocuted ?

All i am saying is that consciousness is non-physical , as we all experience it to be , in total contrast with materialism which reduces consciousness to just biological processes .


Quote
Quote
Ramachandran ? hahah  ( This scientist 's work is so interesting and fascinating that it is a complete waste that he tries to misinterpret it , just in materialistic mechanistic terms ,unfortunately enough )  , Dennett  haha  ...come on , be serious : those are the very embodiement of what 's really so wrong about science today = they are the core embodiement of that toxic false orthodox dogmatic materialistic secular religion in science , in the sense that the "mind is in the brain , memory is stored in the brain ..." : tragic-hilarious,in the sense that 'everything = nothing " can be explained just in terms of physics and chemistry ,including the mind or consciousness  .

That lunatic Dennet  even says that consciousness as such might not exist , that we might all be just zombies taking the illusion of consciousness for real ....

Actually, in the article, Ramachandran disagrees with Dennett on certain things, and gives some explanation why we are not unconscious zombies, or how one would not expect the results he gets in certain experiments, if we were.

I'd be happy to hear your true and non-toxic, non orthodox-dogmatic-materialistic-secular,  interpretation of  Ramachandron's findings, and how he should have interpreted his results.  I asked you earlier about hallucinations, and how they would be generated by the immaterial consciousness, but you declined to discuss it.


Grosso modo :
Well,  i said many times , that the material or the physical is just one single aspect or 1 single part of the whole pic , the mental is the other part , the mental that's more fundamental than the physical or the material, and hence physics and chemistry are just one single aspect of the whole pic , and a less fundamental part at that ,so, there might be some sort of formative or other totally different forms of causation out there , non-physical ones at that , which might be underlying the laws of physics themselves :

See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :
Darwin himself by the way was a convinced Lamarckian ,in the sense that he did accept that kind of inheritance , while even trying to deliver some theories to explain just that : the materialist neo-Darwinians such as Dennett , Dawkins ...do reject that Lamarckian view of evolution and inheritance , obviously .
See the following on the subject :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYU

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #878 on: 23/11/2013 19:08:06 »
In short :

Science must start looking for non-physical forms of causation, or for non-physical or mental phenomena , that are still unknown to science ,  that might or must be underlying the laws of physics themselves , by rejecting reductionist materialism .

Then, and only then, will science or biology , in this case , be able to explain epigenetics , morphogenesis , birds' homing ..........and most of the rest , hopefully .

Untill then, science will just continue to try to explain "everything = nothing ", just in terms of physics and chemistry alone , the latter that cannot account for life fully , let alone its evolution, emergence or origins , let alone that physics and chemistry can account for consciousness ....
Evolution itself , matter itself , life itself ,and most of the rest that cannot be just physical, material or biological thus .

The mind , the mental or the non-physical is  way too primordial and fundamental than matter can ever be , the mental that's irreducible to the physical or to the material .
The mental that's the most fundamental side of the  whole pic of reality as a whole = there is nothing 'supernatural " in it : the non-physical mental is thus ...normal = that's just the other side of the whole pic =the more fundamental one than the physical or material side of the whole pic,  the mental that might be underlying the material or physical  side of the whole pic = physics and chemistry , the laws of physics are a way less fundamental side of the whole pic thus .
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 19:19:29 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #879 on: 23/11/2013 19:11:37 »

When science thus will realise and acknowledge the fact that reality as a whole is not just physical or material , including evolution, the mind or consciousness , and the rest , including matter itself (see modern physics regarding the latter )



It's really a shame that you don't share some of your ideas about chaos theory, observers, causality etc. on the physics forum. They don't know what they are missing.

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #880 on: 23/11/2013 19:16:45 »


See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :



There's nothing immaterial about epigenetics. It's just an additional physical mechanism or process that affects genes besides mutation.

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #881 on: 23/11/2013 19:25:39 »
... See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :
Darwin himself by the way was a convinced Lamarckian ,in the sense that he did accept that kind of inheritance , while even trying to deliver some theories to explain just that : the materialist neo-Darwinians such as Dennett , Dawkins ...do reject that Lamarckian view of evolution and inheritance , obviously ...
Ah, no. Epigenetics isn't inheritance of acquired characteristics in the Lamarkian sense. Epigenetics is about environmental influences (typically stressors) affecting the physiology of an individual and causing suppression of certain genes via methylation; this gene suppression is potentially heritable. So the only acquired characteristic is the methylation of certain genes.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #882 on: 23/11/2013 19:27:06 »
Quote


See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :



There's nothing immaterial about epigenetics. It's just an additional physical mechanism or process that affects genes besides mutation.

What makes genes get "imprinted " by acquired characteristics or by acquired enviromental traits ,such as the implications of famine , holocaust , war traumas ....such as tragic events ...as to behave as if they "hold " some sort of a "memory " of past events ...they pass on to the next generations, and beyond ? How does that happen ? just via physics and chemistry ? How ?
Mechanistic materialist neo-Darwinian science excludes , per definition, the Lamarckian Darwinian epigenetics= epigenetics as a scientific heresy .
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 19:28:54 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #883 on: 23/11/2013 19:30:22 »
Science must start looking for non-physical forms of causation, or for non-physical or mental phenomena , that are still unknown to science ,  that might or must be underlying the laws of physics themselves , by rejecting reductionist materialism .

Then, and only then, will science or biology , in this case , be able to explain epigenetics , morphogenesis , birds' homing

You must have missed my posts on ...

morphogenesis , see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424665#msg424665

and

birds homing , see ...  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424182#msg424182
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 19:33:44 by RD »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #884 on: 23/11/2013 19:53:19 »
I also liked the part about qualia distinguishing real from imaginary, that if beliefs, ideas, memories, etc had qualia as vivid as those associated with perception, it would be impossible for the brain to distinguish between the idea of a monkey sitting in a chair and an actual one; thinking about eating a meal would seem equivalent to actually eating it.
Yes; particularly relevant to me as I realise how many of my past memories consist of a blend of real and dreamed content. If dreams are involved in the encoding of current experiences to long term storage, this integration of dream material is not unexpected, and perhaps helps to explain the unreliability of even seemingly vivid memories.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #885 on: 23/11/2013 19:58:22 »
... See , for example , how epigenetics have been refuting the materialist mechanistic neo-Darwinian view of the world ,regarding inheritance : acquired characteristics get passed on from generation to generation :
Darwin himself by the way was a convinced Lamarckian ,in the sense that he did accept that kind of inheritance , while even trying to deliver some theories to explain just that : the materialist neo-Darwinians such as Dennett , Dawkins ...do reject that Lamarckian view of evolution and inheritance , obviously ...
Ah, no. Epigenetics isn't inheritance of acquired characteristics in the Lamarkian sense. Epigenetics is about environmental influences (typically stressors) affecting the physiology of an individual and causing suppression of certain genes via methylation; this gene suppression is potentially heritable. So the only acquired characteristic is the methylation of certain genes.
[/quote]

Ok, i am no expert in biology or genetics , but, how do you explain the inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics then , in the Lamarckian and Darwinian sense , that gets rejected by the materialist neo-Darwinians ?

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #886 on: 23/11/2013 20:02:18 »
What makes genes get "imprinted " by acquired characteristics or by acquired enviromental traits ,such as the implications of famine , holocaust , war traumas ....such as tragic events ...as to behave as if they "hold " some sort of a "memory " of past events ...they pass on to the next generations, and beyond ? How does that happen ? just via physics and chemistry ? How ?
Yes, epigenetics is biochemistry. Read all about it Here: Epigenetics

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #887 on: 23/11/2013 20:03:14 »
Quote
Science must start looking for non-physical forms of causation, or for non-physical or mental phenomena , that are still unknown to science ,  that might or must be underlying the laws of physics themselves , by rejecting reductionist materialism .

Then, and only then, will science or biology , in this case , be able to explain epigenetics , morphogenesis , birds' homing

You must have missed my posts on ...

morphogenesis , see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424665#msg424665

and

birds homing , see ...  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=49531.msg424182#msg424182

There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism  by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell  , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #888 on: 23/11/2013 20:04:09 »
Ok, i am no expert in biology or genetics , but, how do you explain the inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics then , in the Lamarckian and Darwinian sense , that gets rejected by the materialist neo-Darwinians ?
I'm not aware of any inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics, in the Lamarckian sense. Have you got an example?

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #889 on: 23/11/2013 20:05:31 »
What makes genes get "imprinted " by acquired characteristics or by acquired enviromental traits ,such as the implications of famine , holocaust , war traumas ....such as tragic events ...as to behave as if they "hold " some sort of a "memory " of past events ...they pass on to the next generations, and beyond ? How does that happen ? just via physics and chemistry ? How ?
Yes, epigenetics is biochemistry. Read all about it Here: Epigenetics
[/quote]

Answer my question .
How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #890 on: 23/11/2013 20:09:59 »
Ok, i am no expert in biology or genetics , but, how do you explain the inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics then , in the Lamarckian and Darwinian sense , that gets rejected by the materialist neo-Darwinians ?
I'm not aware of any inheritance of acquired traits or characteristics, in the Lamarckian sense. Have you got an example?
[/quote]


See the following scientific "heresy " on the subject : enlightening study :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYU

Tell me then how do you explain just that , that which was revealed in the video above , when you will finish watching it then .

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #891 on: 23/11/2013 20:21:19 »

When science thus will realise and acknowledge the fact that reality as a whole is not just physical or material , including evolution, the mind or consciousness , and the rest , including matter itself (see modern physics regarding the latter )



It's really a shame that you don't share some of your ideas about chaos theory, observers, causality etc. on the physics forum. They don't know what they are missing.
[/quote]


Do you exclude a-priori any non-physical forms of causation ? Since reality is not just material or physical , do you ?
Do you deny the fact that the mind of the observer does affect the observed .?
And how can the "physical " mind "that's " in the brain , the mental "that's just physics and chemistry"  thus , be able to tell us anything reliable about physics and chemistry = circular "reasoning " : the observed  does imply  the mental of the observer that's observing it , does it not ?
I did never pretend to be an expert on chaos theory, not even remotely close .
Nobody knows "everything " : instead of trying to play the silly wise girl, why don't you enlighten us about how physics and chemistry alone can explain "everything = nothing " then,while missing the mental side of reality , genius .

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #892 on: 23/11/2013 20:24:33 »
There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism  by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell  , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .
As one might expect, they use a variety of navigation cues; landmark recognition, magnetic field sensing, starfield and sun navigation, olfactory cues, etc. See All About Birds: Navigation. Not every homing or migration mechanism is fully explained, but the majority of those examined have been explained, and there's good reason to be confident that the others will have physical explanations.

Experience says unexplained doesn't mean inexplicable. You can always argue that the unexplained may be of 'immaterial' origin until it is explained, 'the immaterial of the gaps'; this seems a rather pointless semantic exercise. But is this is what rocks your boat, go for it. Oh, you did already...

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #893 on: 23/11/2013 20:33:08 »
See the following scientific "heresy " on the subject : enlightening study :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYU

Tell me then how do you explain just that , that which was revealed in the video above , when you will finish watching it then .
What do you think is heretical about it?

What about it do you think contradicts what I already described? It may be a little dated, but it's a reasonable summary of epigenetics.

It isn't Lamarkism.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #894 on: 23/11/2013 20:37:17 »
Quote
There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism  by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell  , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .
As one might expect, they use a variety of navigation cues; landmark recognition, magnetic field sensing, starfield and sun navigation, olfactory cues, etc. See All About Birds: Navigation. Not every homing or migration mechanism is fully explained, but the majority of those examined have been explained, and there's good reason to be confident that the others will have physical explanations.

Experience says unexplained doesn't mean inexplicable. You can always argue that the unexplained may be of 'immaterial' origin until it is explained, 'the immaterial of the gaps'; this seems a rather pointless semantic exercise. But is this is what rocks your boat, go for it. Oh, you did already...

No, they were not explained those ways : all attempts to explain birds ' homing physically failed so far ;as Sheldrake said :
and they will not be explained physically , not fully physically at least , not because we can't explain that now , and hence we will be able to explain them tomorrow , but simply because physics and chemistry alone are just a single part of the whole pic = that's a fact , no "immaterial of the gaps " : materialism is the one in fact that 's not only a kind of a promissory messianism ,in the sense that materialist science will be able to explain "everything =nothing " in the future ,just in terms of physics and chemistry thus,  but materialism is also the one using its "materialism of the gaps " by trying to explain consciousness ,for example,not to mention evolution, life and the rest  , just in terms of physics and chemistry , simply because materialism cannot account for  consciousness or the mental that's irreducible to the physical .

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #895 on: 23/11/2013 20:37:50 »


Answer my question .
How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?

Because  those extreme and long lasting events have physiological effects on the human body, effects like lack of nutrition, exposure to the elements, injury and inflammation, chronic exposure to stress hormones like cortisol. It doesn't mean a memory of the events of WWII become encoded in the genes.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #896 on: 23/11/2013 20:41:59 »
Quote
See the following scientific "heresy " on the subject : enlightening study :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRIkRa1fYU

Tell me then how do you explain just that , that which was revealed in the video above , when you will finish watching it then .
What do you think is heretical about it?

What about it do you think contradicts what I already described? It may be a little dated, but it's a reasonable summary of epigenetics.

It isn't Lamarkism.

The findings in that video are  against the materialist mechanistic orthodox neo-Darwinian  "scientific world view " , i guess,   , that's why they are scientific "heresy " .
Watch the video then .
Later , alligator ,thanks, gotta go.Bye.

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Offline RD

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #897 on: 23/11/2013 20:43:13 »
There were many mechanistic attempts to try to explain birds' homing via the position of the sun , but even at night , birds could get home, or via magnetism  by attaching magnets to those birds , via smell  , via the so-called biological clock ....none was proven to be "true " .

That birds can sense magnetic field has been proven ...
Quote from: ks.uiuc.edu
Although conjecture in the late nineteenth century held that birds could use the earth's magnetic field, it was only in the 1960s that scientists first demonstrated this experimentally.
http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/History/magnetoreception/

If you followed the Cornell University link I gave you can read about the experiments ...

Quote from: cornell.edu
The Magnetic Compass
Another German team did research with the European Robin in the early 1960s. In their tests, robins in a migratory mood were placed in covered cages to eliminate sun, star and other light clues. Despite the lack of visual clues, the robins were observed hopping in the correct migratory direction.

As an additional refinement to the test, a Helmholtz coil was placed around the covered cages. The coil allowed the researchers to shift the direction of the earth's magnetic field. When the direction of the magnetic field was changed, the robins changed their hopping direction.]The Magnetic Compass
Another German team did research with the European Robin in the early 1960s. In their tests, robins in a migratory mood were placed in covered cages to eliminate sun, star and other light clues. Despite the lack of visual clues, the robins were observed hopping in the correct migratory direction.

As an additional refinement to the test, a Helmholtz coil was placed around the covered cages. The coil allowed the researchers to shift the direction of the earth's magnetic field. When the direction of the magnetic field was changed, the robins changed their hopping direction.
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/allaboutbirds/studying/migration/navigation

So that birds cans sense magnetism proven in 1960s , and Alan Turing's paper on "Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis" published in 1952. Whoever is advising you that these phenomena are inexplicable by science is half a century out-of-date, (and can't do a google-search).
« Last Edit: 23/11/2013 20:53:43 by RD »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #898 on: 23/11/2013 20:47:16 »
Quote


Answer my question .
How do those acquired traits , due to famine, war traumas , holocaust, tragic events ...get passed on to the next generations, and beyond ?

Because  those extreme and long lasting events have physiological effects on the human body, effects like lack of nutrition, exposure to the elements, injury and inflammation, chronic exposure to stress hormones like cortisol. It doesn't mean a memory of the events of WWII become encoded in the genes.

What about the much more  important  implications of all that : the psychological mental implications , genius ?
Gotta go, ciao ,think about that : the psychological or mental that are irreducible to the physical : how did those mental and psychological environmental implications and traits get passed on to the next generations and beyond then ?

In short :

Is heredity exclusively material  genetical ?
Hint : no.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What, on Earth, is The Human Consciousness?
« Reply #899 on: 23/11/2013 20:59:32 »
... physics and chemistry alone are just a single part of the whole pic = that's a fact , no "immaterial of the gaps " : materialism is the one in fact that 's not only a kind of a promissory messianism ,in the sense that materialist science will be able to explain "everything =nothing " in the future ,just in terms of physics and chemistry thus,  but materialism is also the one using its "materialism of the gaps " by trying to explain consciousness ,for example,not to mention evolution, life and the rest  , just in terms of physics and chemistry , simply because materialism cannot account for  consciousness or the mental that's irreducible to the physical .
Yawn...