thrust does not work in space

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Offline Reality207

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #150 on: 30/08/2014 13:32:19 »
I changed my mind Alan, and it seems you did too? [:-'(].
Patents become public and as there are companies that monitor the patent office with the intent of Circumnavigating patents, so as to steal the invention, I'm not willing to chance that.
Furthere there are too many nations that do not acknowledge U.S. or Internations patents.


After what I perceive as a fair and reasonable investigation into rocket propulsion in space; with what would seem to be top rocket scientist, engineers and physicists in the industry; and after having read the related pages from a number One best selling book on the subject and having invalidated all the attempts to defendable and/or explain the actual mechanics of how rockets thrust in space, I have no choice but to conclude that the irrational, that should seems inconceivable, is invariably the truth.
There is, at this time, no valid evidence, presented to me, that rockets work in space.

I am still willing to hear any sound, mechanical, explanation of how they work. And admit if I am wrong. 
I am not willing to listen to the invalid applications and analogies of Newtons Laws of Motions.  As I am tired of explaining that One Can Not Push Against Something That Doesn’t Exist.  "Realities Law."


Is it really so unconceivable that this could be a hoax!
Let me be clear on this, I do NOT fault the scientists that design these rockets, the people that assemble them, or the people that serve in any way.  How do any of them truly know what happens after it launches and leaves our sight?

We are a nation full of hoaxies, for example; oil companies profit HUNDREDS OF  BILLIONS of dollars a quarter EACH !!!!!! while our parents, friends, our sick and elderly who raised us, who built our schools, our homes and our nation, have to choose, in their age and time of need, rather to buy oil, food or medicine they need to stay alive.  SHAME ON ALL OF US, ME INCLUDED. And I am deeply ashamed.
To me; this is not just one example of how we as a nation allow these hoaxes, but an example of the sicknesses that we all share, not just the immoral, sociopathic, greed driven maniac owners/boards of the oil companies, but us, as we stand by idly and ignore it or worse we buy stock in them laughing it off saying, “if you can’t beat them join them”.

 [:-\]




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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #151 on: 30/08/2014 15:06:12 »
Quote from: Reality207
..and having invalidated all the attempts to defendable and/or explain the actual mechanics of how rockets thrust in space, ..
You've never done any such thing. You've only deluded yourself into believing what you chose to believe from the start. We've proven it to you time and time again. I gave you the proof from Taylor's text and you didn't understand it. All one needs to understand is Newton's third law which is easily demonstrated. Look it up on the internet.

I've constantly asked you questions which you've refused to answer, i.e. how did they put satellites in geosynchronous orbit? How did they put the GPS  satellites in orbit? How did astronauts get to the moon in while there place corner reflectors on the surface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corner_reflector. What is it you thought you were watching from all the television signals coming from the space shuttle in the early years? How did Google get satellite images of Area 51, etc, etc, etc,

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #152 on: 30/08/2014 15:44:03 »

There is, at this time, no valid evidence, presented to me, that rockets work in space.

Something tells me that if we were to place you in a rocket and send you to the moon, you'd return to earth still convinced that rockets don't work in space. Like you've previously said, "hopeless"..............................
« Last Edit: 31/08/2014 00:35:13 by Ethos_ »
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #153 on: 30/08/2014 15:57:00 »

There is, at this time, no valid evidence, presented to me, that rockets work in space.

Something tells me that if we were place you in a rocket and send you to the moon, you'd return to earth still convinced that rockets don't work in space. Like you've previously said, "hopeless"..............................
You've hit the nail right smack on the head. We'd be accused of drugging him or something.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #154 on: 30/08/2014 17:18:39 »
I changed my mind Alan, and it seems you did too? [:-'(].
Patents become public and as there are companies that monitor the patent office with the intent of Circumnavigating patents, so as to steal the invention, I'm not willing to chance that.
Furthere there are too many nations that do not acknowledge U.S. or Internations patents.

Standard "mad inventor" response, I'm afraid. The problem is that if you don't have patent cover, you will accuse me of leaking your designs to your competitors.


Quote
There is, at this time, no valid evidence, presented to me, that rockets work in space.

Have you noticed how many people get their TV service from a parabolic dish pointing upwards? Have you noticed how, as you travel towards the equator, these dishes point more vertically? Are we all suffering from mass hypnosis, or is there something up there sending TV signals to earth? If so, how did it get there?

OK, let's suppose that geosynchronous satellites are launched ballistically (i.e. from a bigger gun than anyone has ever made, but in secret, and from several countries, and the pathetic little UHF repeaters you have seen are just a joke - the real ones can withstand a 1000 g launch).  But you do seem to have accepted that some humans and other bits of stuff have been launched by this mysterious nonrocket. And you may believe that some of them (indeed most of the humans) have been recovered from orbit. Now how did they do that? A long piece of string attached to the International Space Station? Or just maybe some kind of motor that works when there is "nothing to push against". 

Quote
Let me be clear on this, I do NOT fault the scientists that design these rockets, the people that assemble them, or the people that serve in any way.  How do any of them truly know what happens after it launches and leaves our sight?

Money talks. If I had bought a zillion-dollar satellite and it just disappeared over the  hill when t he rocket fired, I wouldn't commission another one. But many very clever investors and generals have comissioned many satellites for all sorts of purposes, and seem quite satisfied to keep spending money on rocket launchers. 

Or perhaps you might be interested in a personal point of view? I fly out of sight of anyone, several times a week. But I keep in touch with mere mortals by radio, and they watch me with radar, so we all know exactly where I (and several others) am. Curiously, I find that my GPS system, which can only receive signals from above, tells me pretty much the same thing as my maps, calculations and radar traces, so I'm inclined to believe that there are transmitters way up in space, put there either by magic or rockets.  I can't think of any reason why the laws of electromagnetic wave propagation which apply to my piston-engined aeroplane shouldn't apply to my astronaut friends' Soyuz rocket. Perhaps you can?
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline dlorde

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #155 on: 09/09/2014 17:19:24 »
I have a serious question
I went to the space musium and looked at the lander, and the rover, where did they put the rover to carry it up there?  How did they attach it?  no one at the musium could answer that question, will you?
They folded it up and put it in a space on the side of the lander.

Google is your friend.

The NASA web site has full details and schematics.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #156 on: 09/09/2014 21:20:40 »
I have a serious question
I went to the space musium and looked at the lander, and the rover, where did they put the rover to carry it up there?  How did they attach it?  no one at the musium could answer that question, will you?
They folded it up and put it in a space on the side of the lander.

Google is your friend.

The NASA web site has full details and schematics.

See also

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_lrv.html
http://historicspacecraft.com/Lunar_Module.html
http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000731.html
http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/nasas-lunar-rover-everything-you-need-to-know.html

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Offline dlorde

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #157 on: 10/09/2014 10:20:02 »
See also

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_lrv.html
http://historicspacecraft.com/Lunar_Module.html
http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000731.html
http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/nasas-lunar-rover-everything-you-need-to-know.html
It no longer surprises me that we get treated like front-ends for Google. The most sophisticated search engines ever developed have put almost all knowledge at our fingertips, but some people still want someone else to do the work for them...

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #158 on: 10/09/2014 18:14:16 »
Quote from: dlorde
It no longer surprises me that we get treated like front-ends for Google. The most sophisticated search engines ever developed have put almost all knowledge at our fingertips, but some people still want someone else to do the work for them...
True. Back to the endless proofs that we've give him

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/rocketry/home/what-is-a-rocket-k4.html#.VBBJOvl_vK8

http://www.thescienceforum.com/physics/46137-how-does-rocket-engine-make-ship-go-forward.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #159 on: 20/01/2015 14:54:34 »
Hello.

I have read this entire thread and joined this board specifically to revive this topic.

In summary/prelude, I want to say I agree 100% with what Truthseeker67 has been arguing.


All that proves is; That neither Truthseeker67 nor yourself understands physical science enough to grasp Action and Reaction. And if you don't like the answers gathered at this forum, try searching out your disagreements on Wikipedia. Then, if you don't like those answers, start your own forum..................Enough said!
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #160 on: 20/01/2015 16:48:11 »
Quote from: SteinUntStein
Hello.

I have read this entire thread and joined this board specifically to revive this topic.
You're claiming to have carefully read all 160 replies?

Quote from: SteinUntStein
In summary/prelude, I want to say I agree 100% with what Truthseeker67 has been arguing.
Then you haven't read what the arguments presented to him carefully enough. We explained to him the fact that thrust needs to atmosphere to work in and provided multiple examples. We explained all of this more than adequately and in detail. He was simply unable to understand what he read. We explained to him that rockets work on the principle of Newton's third law, which he essentially claims is wrong, even though there is more than ample experimental evidence to the contrary.

The example I myself gave to him is the fact that in order for the space shuttle to achieve orbit the thrust of the rocket's engine must work in the absence of an atmosphere. Otherwise it wouldn't work. When the space shuttle wants to return to earth it must ignite the engines so that the thrust will slow it down enough to enter the earth's atmosphere.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:58:48 by CliffordK »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #161 on: 21/01/2015 00:36:34 »
In summary/prelude, I want to say I agree 100% with what Truthseeker67 has been arguing.

Excellent! Perhaps you will enlighten us, then, as to where satellite TV and GPS signals come from, how some of my friends got into and out of various orbiting machines (some of which you can still see in the night sky), and why communications companies and the military continue to spend zillions of dollars on things that don't work.

Or just start by explaining where Newton, Whittle, von Braun et al went wrong. 

Quote
Theoretical science is the new religion. Its disbelievers, heretics.

Wrong. Heresy is the essence of science.
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #162 on: 21/01/2015 16:15:35 »
In summary/prelude, I want to say I agree 100% with what Truthseeker67 has been arguing.

Excellent! Perhaps you will enlighten us, then, as to where satellite TV and GPS signals come from, how some of my friends got into and out of various orbiting machines (some of which you can still see in the night sky), and why communications companies and the military continue to spend zillions of dollars on things that don't work.

Or just start by explaining where Newton, Whittle, von Braun et al went wrong. 

Quote
Theoretical science is the new religion. Its disbelievers, heretics.

Wrong. Heresy is the essence of science.
I couldn't have said it better myself! :)

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #163 on: 22/01/2015 21:37:14 »
I'm not here to make enemies. I am trying to be upfront. I have been greeted with anything but cordiality.
It is confirmation about the way Truthseeker seemed to me to be treated.
The fact that some of you want to know about me rather than discuss the issues is indicative of the deeper problem.

As I say, I intend to insult no one personally, but such treatment as was given Truthseeker is unacceptable in any forum.
This is my issue. Throughout your debates with Truthseeker very few responses answered his very good questions and points.
No, most responses took the form of "because we say so and if you don't believe it you are stupid."

I understand some impatience, and I understand having to deliver a little scolding once in a while. But man, I say he was bullied.

For the record, I have yet to see any proof (I have heard some of the science) that thrust works in space, that is, in an alleged vacuum, and none here as convinced me.

I am NOT an expert in this field although I can drop names with the best of them and make you think so. But seems to me action=reaction is not applicable in space, and several Earth-based experiments in a vacuum seem to confirm this.

It's not really, for me, whether he is or I am right or wrong on this issue. Not primarily. First it is this authoritarian attitude with which he is answered.

Only confirms to me that people guided by today's theoretical science are worshiping a religion. Same commitment, same lack of proofs for fundamental premises, same excommunication recommended for anyone who does not believe, same smug surety in what most of them have never witnessed, in this case, thrust in outer space vacuum.

Science, by my understanding, is both practical and theoretical. Practical science gives us things we can use, pragmatic tools for living, technological advancement. Theory on its own can be held by any lunatic and justified as well as much of today's scientific theory. Normally, such nonsense would be laughable. However,  given the status of science today, i.e. god-like reverence, even nonsense is considered good because it calls itself science.

Science is the new religion. Zealots precide.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #164 on: 23/01/2015 00:06:00 »
I was actually trying to start a conversation. I don't care whether you are qualified or not. There are a lot of amateur physicists and mathematicians who work quite hard at picking things up. Do me the courtesy of not assuming my motives. Unless you have clairvoyance? Not much point in being friendly with you is there?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #165 on: 23/01/2015 19:23:14 »
Youtube is also a friend here:
Video of propeller and rocket operating in evacuated jar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFMObYCccU

If you don't trust the vid, maybe go visit the museum?

Some footage from the side of a rocket launching into space:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEom0G30Gic


Also here is footage of our mission to the comet Temple 1.

Deep Impact's view approaching Temple 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKls-sN56Jk

View of Deep Impact hitting Temple 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dryvDlB1hWA

Please don't waste our time claiming this footage is faked.

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #166 on: 24/01/2015 05:47:17 »
Youtube is also a friend here:
Video of propeller and rocket operating in evacuated jar: newbielink:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFMObYCccU [nonactive]

If you don't trust the vid, maybe go visit the museum?

Some footage from the side of a rocket launching into space:
newbielink:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEom0G30Gic [nonactive]


Also here is footage of our mission to the comet Temple 1.

Deep Impact's view approaching Temple 1
newbielink:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKls-sN56Jk [nonactive]

View of Deep Impact hitting Temple 1
newbielink:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dryvDlB1hWA [nonactive]

Please don't waste our time claiming this footage is faked.

There is no such thing as a vacuum, you must know that, unless you mean the thing used to clean carpet...So, no "vacuated" jar.
Which museum and what will I be shown there?
The footage is real. However it does not depict what it says it does.
Temple 1 is a model like the rest.
What makes you so sure the film is authentic?
This is my question.
I can make that video in 20 minutes in my basement.

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #167 on: 24/01/2015 05:52:13 »
Like YouTube, you say?
newbielink:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp9Y8I6v_Ds [nonactive]

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #168 on: 24/01/2015 09:05:45 »
Skepticism isn't always healthy, and when it is associated with Kruger-Dunning syndrome, it can be very damaging to the patient. Fortunately neither condition is contagious, so the rest of us can walk away unscathed.

However, for those interested in pursuing infamous scientific conspiracies, consider that nobody is sure when Christopher Columbus was born. Now a brilliant navigator would surely be punctilious about such matters, so either (a) he wasn't a brilliant navigator, or (b) he didn't exist. If (a) then we have no reason to believe that he actually went where he said, and if (b) then the entire story is a fabrication. Therefore on all the available evidence, the world is flat. This is entirely consistent with the fact that rockets don't work in space, as all the so-called orbital images are faked to cover up this important fact. It also explains why Americans speak English like Martians: America doesn't exist - they really are Martians, who travel here through wormholes on invisible space buses.

Excuse me, there are two men at the door, wearing white coats. Must go.   
« Last Edit: 24/01/2015 09:21:59 by alancalverd »
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #169 on: 24/01/2015 14:00:35 »
Quote from: SteinUntStein
There is no such thing as a vacuum, you must know that, unless you mean the thing used to clean carpet...So, no "vacuated" jar.
You sure have a lot you learn, especially what a vacuum is. The claim in this thread is that thrust can't work in a vacuum because there is no matter to "push" against (or some other nonsense about weight). There is such a thing as a vacuum. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum

But you need to read that entire page to understand exactly what physicists mean by a vacuum. E.g.
Quote
The quality of a partial vacuum refers to how closely it approaches a perfect vacuum. Other things equal, lower gas pressure means higher-quality vacuum. For example, a typical vacuum cleaner produces enough suction to reduce air pressure by around 20%.[3] Much higher-quality vacuums are possible. Ultra-high vacuum chambers, common in chemistry, physics, and engineering, operate below one trillionth (10−12) of atmospheric pressure (100 nPa), and can reach around 100 particles/cm3.[4] Outer space is an even higher-quality vacuum, with the equivalent of just a few hydrogen atoms per cubic meter on average.[5] According to modern understanding, even if all matter could be removed from a volume, it would still not be "empty" due to vacuum fluctuations, dark energy, transiting gamma- and cosmic rays, neutrinos, along with other phenomena in quantum physics. In modern particle physics, the vacuum state is considered as the ground state of matter.

Quote from: SteinUntStein
Which museum and what will I be shown there?
All, museums are different so it depends on the particular museum. In the museum of science in Boston they have a tube with a hammer and a feather in it. In one instance they fill the tube with air and drop the items and they fall at very different rates. Then they evacute the tube and then they fall at the same rate. But I don't reacall seeing a demonstration there about a rocket operating in space. It doesn't matter because nobody who knows physics would question it because there's overwhelming evidence of it being the case.

Quote from: SteinUntStein
I can make that video in 20 minutes in my basement.
Okay. Let's see you do it. Then again, if you can build things in your basement then build a chamber in which you can create a vacuum and place an estes rocket engine in it with a method to ignite the engine remotely, i.e. outside the chamber and a way to measure the thrust. Have a transparent wall to watch what happens. When there is a vacuum present ignite the engine and you'll see that it will have thrust. Measure it. Do it several times with different pressures in it and you'll find that the amount of thrust does not approach zero as the vacuum approaches zero indicating that pressure is not a factor of the cause of the thrust.
« Last Edit: 24/01/2015 14:11:12 by PmbPhy »

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #170 on: 24/01/2015 14:59:27 »
Quote
There is no such thing as a vacuum, you must know that, unless you mean the thing used to clean carpet...So, no "vacuated" jar.
Quote
You sure have a lot you learn...

Manifestly.
I am glad to hear you have completed the job [blech]

Quote from: SteinUntStein
Which museum and what will I be shown there?
Quote
All, museums are different so it depends on the particular museum.
Ya don't say?

Really, you quote me Wikipedia to prove the existence of the non-existent vacuum?
By my read (you just quoted) it is an APPROXIMATION. You can get close but you can't get it, and the closer you get the better vacuum...
Restore the aether and you solve the problem. Let's say "PURE VACUUM" is mythology, you know, like the Big Bang, and black holes, and antimatter, and...

As for the video, what will you pay me? If it's convincing? Otherwise, you're not very photographically-inclined if you think it CANNOT be made, sorry.

What you consider overwhelming evidence I consider overwhelming parrotry.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #171 on: 24/01/2015 15:05:30 »
The main problem with this thread is that the OP has no idea of how thrust works. His description was nothing but gibberish and shows no understanding of Newton's third law since the OP simply has no grasp of it, i.e.
Quote from: truthseeker67
In space there is no third law and if i believed there was i wouldn't of started this topic.
which is clearly untrue. If a statement is a law of physics then it can't depend on where in space its true. Otherewise it wouldn't be a law.

Quote from: truthseeker67
Take a good long look at just how the OP thinks thrust works, i.e.
the reason why thrust cant work is simple
thrust equals = weight in order to have weight we need gravity.
see its like this in space everything weighs nothing so i would say a rocket weighs 0
or put like this rocket =0
                       thrust=0 because without gravity there is no weight behind the thrust
to cause a reaction so no movement would take place.
Clearly the OP is confusing thrust with the weight of an object. I already explained his mistake but since he doesn't understand physics he was unable to understand the explanation.

His error is this: let us first definne thrust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust
Quote
Thrust is a reaction force described quantitatively by Newton's second and third laws. When a system expels or accelerates mass in one direction, the accelerated mass will cause a force of equal magnitude but opposite direction on that system.[1] The force applied on a surface in a direction perpendicular or normal to the surface is called thrust. Force, and thus thrust, is measured in the International System of Units (SI) as the newton (symbol: N), and represents the amount needed to accelerate 1 kilogram of mass at the rate of 1 metre per second squared.

In mechanical engineering, force orthogonal to the main load (such as in parallel helical gears) is referred to as thrust.
Essentially Wiki is saying that thrust is a force (described by Newton's 3rd law). The units of thrust is the Newton. Weight essentially has nothing to do with the definition of thrust. The only thing it has in common is that they have the same units. The thrust of a rocket is the force on the rocket which accelerates it through space. The weight of an object is the gravitational force on an object. The OP couldn't understand this so after we explaine his error to him he started insulting us.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #172 on: 24/01/2015 15:57:38 »
I think most of the posts on this thread have become so negative in response to the "style of debate" employed by those arguing that thrust cannot work in space. Science is based in evidence--Since we cannot actually show you a rocket working in space without putting you there yourself (though maybe we can crowd-fund to send one of you into orbit...), and any footage we offer is accused of being faked, and any examples of any space missions lead to talk of vast international conspiracies, what evidence are we left with to discuss? Even basic textbook science is "open to debate" because misunderstanding and/or mistrust of well-established theory.

Perhaps one of you would like to put forth some evidence, beyond thought experiment, that rockets don't work in space?

I would like to mention, however, that skepticism is healthy for scientific maintenance and progress. It is good to have people constantly question even those things that we all take for granted. That said, those who question well-established theory are more often wrong than right, and either way, make few friends. Not everyone who questions dogma is a Galileo. I thank you for performing this necessary and usually thankless part of scientific discourse. But in this instance, you're still wrong.

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #173 on: 24/01/2015 16:23:39 »
Thanks for this real post.

The main problem with this thread is that the OP has no idea of how thrust works. His description was nothing but gibberish and shows no understanding of Newton's third law since the OP simply has no grasp of it, i.e.
Quote from: truthseeker67
In space there is no third law and if i believed there was i wouldn't of started this topic.
which is clearly untrue.

Some people say rules are meant to be broken, exceptions prove them, etc. Newton had no idea of the constituency of space, and nothing says his rules must apply there. Maybe we don't now either. Maybe Newton was wrong, and in fact most of his laws are inaccurate at some scale, or in some (frames). I know I said I agree 100% with Truthseeker, but I meant his overall message, not everything he said, so allow me clarify.
Quote
If a statement is a law of physics then it can't depend on where in space its true. Otherewise it wouldn't be a law.
That statement is incorrect on its face. Some alleged laws of physics do not hold up in all circumstances, locations, conditions, etc.
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Quote from: truthseeker67
Take a good long look at just how the OP thinks thrust works, i.e.
the reason why thrust cant work is simple
thrust equals = weight in order to have weight we need gravity.
see its like this in space everything weighs nothing so i would say a rocket weighs 0
or put like this rocket =0
                       thrust=0 because without gravity there is no weight behind the thrust
to cause a reaction so no movement would take place.
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Clearly the OP is confusing thrust with the weight of an object. I already explained his mistake but since he doesn't understand physics he was unable to understand the explanation.

I understand what he means and also why you are frustrated. The problem is your understandings of "weight" vis-a-vis mass, but I think it was discussed already. Actually I think he has a pretty good basic understanding of physics, better than me certainly, it is not my field, but I try :)
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His error is this: let us first definne thrust

newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust [nonactive]
[/quote]

Please do better than Wikipedia whenever possible. They are known to be repressive of some information and on the bandwagon on others. But myself I know what thrust is, and how it works, basic physics, not in space, or no vacuum.

A rocket works, for us laymen, by pushing off something. A terrestrial-launched rocket goes nowhere until thrust is given, pushing the rocket off the pad because the expelled air and heat push off the ground. Or the submarine. When launched from a plane, the rocket is dropped from under the wing, and shortly thereafter its thrust begins and the rocket goes forward, this time because it is pushing on air. Were you to take a Saturn-type setup and drop it from, oh, half a mile up, point upwards, somehow, and let it drop, then fire the thrusters, whether or not you make it up, and so escape that gravitational pull, would be a risky proposition. This is just 1/2 a mile, in Earth atmopshere.
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In mechanical engineering, force orthogonal to the main load (such as in parallel helical gears) is referred to as thrust.

No clue there buddy but sounds like more BS retroactive formulae (like diagramming sentences, or speaking in prose).
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Essentially Wiki is saying that thrust is a force (described by Newton's 3rd law). The units of thrust is the Newton. Weight essentially has nothing to do with the definition of thrust.
First two yes. The third does not follow, logically.
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The only thing it has in common is that they have the same units.
So they do have something to do with each other.
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The thrust of a rocket is the force on the rocket which accelerates it through space. The weight of an object is the gravitational force on an object.
The rocket has weight, the thrust also has weight relative its surroundings otherwise how can it be thrust? The force is what is established by the the thrust, read it right.
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The OP couldn't understand this so after we explaine his error to him he started insulting us.
Can you direct me to the insult post, I must have missed it. And I don't think he didn't understand it, I think he didn't believe it, or sought to explain it a different way.

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #174 on: 24/01/2015 16:30:10 »
I think most of the posts on this thread have become so negative in response to the "style of debate" employed by those arguing that thrust cannot work in space. Science is based in evidence--Since we cannot actually show you a rocket working in space without putting you there yourself (though maybe we can crowd-fund to send one of you into orbit...), and any footage we offer is accused of being faked, and any examples of any space missions lead to talk of vast international conspiracies, what evidence are we left with to discuss? Even basic textbook science is "open to debate" because misunderstanding and/or mistrust of well-established theory.

Perhaps one of you would like to put forth some evidence, beyond thought experiment, that rockets don't work in space?

I would like to mention, however, that skepticism is healthy for scientific maintenance and progress. It is good to have people constantly question even those things that we all take for granted. That said, those who question well-established theory are more often wrong than right, and either way, make few friends. Not everyone who questions dogma is a Galileo. I thank you for performing this necessary and usually thankless part of scientific discourse. But in this instance, you're still wrong.

I keep needing to leave but I like this post I want to say it is civil and for the most part true. Whether I am wrong or not is the issue, however. I understand and agree it is frustrating in the face of skepticism for something you believe to be true. Hence my questioning.

I make an analogy. There are many photos on the one hand, videos even, of alleged UFOs, and many photos of extraterrestrial objects allegedly taken by NASA from outer space. Seems to me the stack of such evidences would be just as high for both. Is this evidence good enough to conclude the equal validity of both? Jus a question, again, about your authority, how would I decide other than on case by case basis?

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #175 on: 24/01/2015 16:53:30 »

A rocket works, for us laymen, by pushing off something. A terrestrial-launched rocket goes nowhere until thrust is given, pushing the rocket off the pad because the expelled air and heat push off the ground. Or the submarine. When launched from a plane, the rocket is dropped from under the wing, and shortly thereafter its thrust begins and the rocket goes forward, this time because it is pushing on air. Were you to take a Saturn-type setup and drop it from, oh, half a mile up, point upwards, somehow, and let it drop, then fire the thrusters, whether or not you make it up, and so escape that gravitational pull, would be a risky proposition. This is just 1/2 a mile, in Earth atmopshere.


False. A rocket pushes off of itself. By forcing propellent in one direction, the rocket goes the opposite direction. If the rocket were pushing off of something, wouldn't it matter what it was pushing off from? Wouldn't it be more effective to push off the hard, stable ground or launch platform than pushing off the air? Well, it doesn't make a difference what is behind the rocket, so I posit that it isn't actually pushing off.

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #176 on: 24/01/2015 17:42:31 »
To the OP and Mr. "SteinUntStein"

In an effort to regain some civility in this thread and to likewise offer an explanation for why rockets work in space, please consider the following detailed information.

Place your attention to the inside of the rocket. A tube, if you will, with one end open to space and the other end sealed off. An explosion takes place located in the center of the tube. From this location at the center, there will be force directed in two basic directions, out the back at the open end and likewise, toward the front end which is sealed off. The force directed out the back end is not what propels the craft, it is the force applied toward the front of the rocket. Because the explosion is initiated in the confines of the rocket, the sealed end of the craft feels the push from the pressure wave and experiences movement away from the initial explosion. Thus the rocket moves thru the vacuum. The expanding gases out the back of the rocket have little to do with the motion of the craft.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:42:16 by CliffordK »
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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #177 on: 25/01/2015 13:38:24 »
Place your attention to the inside of the rocket. A tube, if you will, with one end open to space and the other end sealed off. An explosion takes place located in the center of the tube. From this location at the center, there will be force directed in two basic directions, out the back at the open end and likewise, toward the front end which is sealed off. The force directed out the back end is not what propels the craft, it is the force applied toward the front of the rocket. Because the explosion is initiated in the confines of the rocket, the sealed end of the craft feels the push from the pressure wave and experiences movement away from the initial explosion. Thus the rocket moves thru the vacuum. The expanding gases out the back of the rocket have little to do with the motion of the craft.

Even on Earth, if you plug up the exhaust of a rocket it will go nowhere.
Your analogy is explaining things in a half-empty/half-full glass sort of way. Yes  what you say is half true. The rocket does go up (or straight out from under the wing...well kind of straight up, I mean those manned trajectories themselves could use examination...) because of pushing against the rocket. BUT if there was no thrust there, outside against the resistance of air, there would be no movement.

Blow up a balloon. Keep the end closed. No forward movement. Let the hole open, you get forward motion. You get it because the air inside is being expelled outside. Use the air inside as analogy for the spend fuel. Without exhaust it goes nowhere. Seems to me in an alleged vacuum that air would be expelled, but just kind of dribble out the end.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:39:25 by CliffordK »

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #178 on: 25/01/2015 13:46:25 »

False. A rocket pushes off of itself. By forcing propellent in one direction, the rocket goes the opposite direction. If the rocket were pushing off of something, wouldn't it matter what it was pushing off from? Wouldn't it be more effective to push off the hard, stable ground or launch platform than pushing off the air? Well, it doesn't make a difference what is behind the rocket, so I posit that it isn't actually pushing off.

Yes a rocket pushes off itself, but it needs a catalyst, as you say very next sentence "by forcing propellant in one direction."
No propellant force, no motion, necessary vs. sufficient conditions.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #179 on: 25/01/2015 15:38:55 »

Blow up a balloon. Keep the end closed. No forward movement. Let the hole open, you get forward motion. You get it because the air inside is being expelled outside. Use the air inside as analogy for the spend fuel. Without exhaust it goes nowhere.

*That ↑* is a perfect explanation!   [;D]

Seems to me in an alleged vacuum that air would be expelled, but just kind of dribble out the end.

But this ↑ is mistaken. If anything, the air would be expelled faster into a lower pressure environment or vacuum, not slower.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #180 on: 25/01/2015 20:35:37 »
Quote from: chiralSPO
But this ↑ is mistaken. If anything, the air would be expelled faster into a lower pressure environment or vacuum, not slower.
That's precisely the case. The rate of flow is a function of the difference in pressure.
« Last Edit: 26/01/2015 14:51:39 by Georgia »

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #181 on: 27/01/2015 12:36:04 »
Quote from: chiralSPO
But this ↑ is mistaken. If anything, the air would be expelled faster into a lower pressure environment or vacuum, not slower.
That's precisely the case. The rate of flow is a function of the difference in pressure.
The exhaust would just kind of be absorbed by the vacuum (alleged) of space. Low pressure is also not the same as no pressure (vacuum).
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:11:46 by CliffordK »

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #182 on: 27/01/2015 15:31:44 »
Absolute vacuum is unachievable. But we can call very low pressures "partial vacuum," or even just shorthand it as "vacuum" because no one would be expected to confuse the "vacuum" being discussed with absolute vacuum.

The vacuum of space is also actually just extremely low pressure (down to about one particle per cubic meter!)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "absorbed by the vacuum."

______________________
Time try a molecular picture of pressure and thrust!

Pressure (P) is proportional to the number of gas molecules (n) per unit volume (V), as well as proportional to temperature (T, on the Kelvin scale). Hence the handy equation P = nRT/V, where R is a constant.

If we have a box of some gas at room temperature (273 K) then the gas molecules will be zipping around inside the box, bumping into the walls with a rate determined by n/V, and kinetic energy determined by T. The pressure is a result of this: a greater number of molecules in the box will hit the walls more often, and at higher T, they will hit the walls harder.

If we now imagine an immobile wall dividing the box into two compartments, we can calculate the pressure on either side of the wall, given the number of gas molecules and volume of each side (let's assume T is the same on both ends of the box, so the molecules are all moving with the same average kinetic energy). If the left side has twice the number of molecules per liter as the right side, there will be twice as many molecular impacts per second against the left side of that wall as on the right side. As defined, the wall can't move, but if we allowed it to move, it will go to the right, being pushed by all of the molecules on the left. As it moves, the density of gas on the left decreases (because the available volume increases and number of molecules remains the same), and the density of gas increases on the right (because the volume is decreasing). Eventually the densities (pressures) equalize, and the wall stops moving because the molecules pushing it from the right perfectly balance the molecules pushing on the left.

Let's try this thought experiment again, but with an immobile wall that has a hole in it that we can open by pressing a button. Initially there are twice as many molecules on the left side of the box as on the right side, and both sides have the same volume (and temperature). Let's say the hole is circular, with an area of 1 mm2. While the hole is closed, molecules from each side of the box are bumping into the cover and bouncing back the other way (just as above). In any given second, there are twice as many molecules hitting the left side of the hole-cover as are hitting the right side. Now, we push the button, and the cover slides over, opening the hole. Now, instead of bouncing back, the molecules pass right through the hole, with twice as many molecules per second passing from the left side to the right side as there are from the right side to the left side. There are molecules going both ways through the hole, each with the same average speed, but the overall rate of flow is from the left to the right. If the density on the left side of the box were 10 times that of the right side, then there would initially be ten times as many molecules going from left to right through the hole. As the number of molecules on the left fall, and the number of molecules on the right increase, the rate at which molecules cross from right to left approaches the rate they cross from left to right, eventually becoming equal. There are still molecules crossing the hole, but when there are the same number going each direction, the overall flow of gas has stopped.

Now lets imagine that there are two boxes, one inside the other, and the smaller (inner) box has a hole that can be opened with a button. The inner box has 1000 times as many gas molecules in it, and is 1000 times smaller than the outer box (so the ratio of molecular densities is 1000000:1). This means that there are 1000000 times as many molecules bumping into the inside of the box as there are hitting the outside of the box (it will explode if the box isn't strong enough, but let's say it doesn't). When the hole is opened, 1000000 times as many molecules per second will move through the hole from the smaller box into the larger box, as will move from the larger box to the smaller box (note: if the larger box had an extremely low density of gas molecules, there might not be any that pass into the smaller box through the hole). So overall, molecules are leaving the inner box though a hole that's on one side.

The force exerted on the inner walls of the inner box is unbalanced now, as there are fewer molecules hitting the wall with the hole as there are hitting the wall without the hole. So if the inner box is free to move, it will naturally move away from the side that has the hole (being pushed by the gas inside it). As long as the pressure inside the inner box is greater than the pressure of the outer box, there will be a flow imbalance and the inner box will move accordingly. That is thrust.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #183 on: 27/01/2015 20:43:45 »
Quote from: chiralSPO
But this ↑ is mistaken. If anything, the air would be expelled faster into a lower pressure environment or vacuum, not slower.
That's precisely the case. The rate of flow is a function of the difference in pressure.

No I'm afraid you are wrong again. The exhaust would just kind of be absorbed by the vacuum (alleged) of space. Low pressure is also not the same as no pressure (vacuum).

Presumably you are happy to admit that rockets work OK at low altitude. You might also admit that atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude - or is my altimeter operated by fairies? So at what altitude do they stop working?
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #184 on: 27/01/2015 21:45:34 »


No I'm afraid you are wrong again. The exhaust would just kind of be absorbed by the vacuum (alleged) of space. Low pressure is also not the same as no pressure (vacuum).
Nowhere in the cosmos does a perfect vacuum exist. So, I'm afraid you are misinformed.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:13:06 by CliffordK »
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #185 on: 27/01/2015 22:32:57 »
Quote from: SteinUntStein
The exhaust would just kind of be absorbed by the vacuum (alleged) of space.
As I said above, the thrust on, say, a high pressure gas container, is a function of the pressure outside the container and the pressure inside the container. If the pressures are equal ten the container doesn't accelerate. If the outside pressure is near zero then the thrust is at a near maximum. In between those extremes the thrust is also in between and is an increasing function of the difference.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:40:23 by CliffordK »

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #186 on: 28/01/2015 19:14:29 »
ChiralSPO: I appreciate the explanation attempt however there is one problem, it's that the box would be need to constructed of such material that nothing could go through it. Many perceived impermeable materials can be penetrated by the likes of subatomic particles, light, etc. Also, if that box is truly sealed, in the absence of any compelling factor, there should be no movement because any alleged vacuum would make that an impossibility. Maybe I'm missing how this applies to either thrust in space or the existence of any vacuum.
AlanCalverd: They stop working when there is no atmosphere at all. No atmosphere = no means of propulsion. Pretty basic actually. Maybe your altimeter is off, possible you know ;)
Ethos: I in fact was the first person on this board to assert the non-existence of the vaccum in relation to the thrust question.
PmbPhy: The converse (vacuum exists) is taken as a fundamental truth, without the qualification, about the constituency of space.

There is no vacuum, as Ethos has confirmed. If indeed thrusters work in space IT MUST BE BECAUSE the space you are in IS NOT a vacuum.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:22:09 by CliffordK »

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #187 on: 28/01/2015 20:07:20 »
ChiralSPO: I appreciate the explanation attempt however there is one problem, it's that the box would be need to constructed of such material that nothing could go through it. Many perceived impermeable materials can be penetrated by the likes of subatomic particles, light, etc. Also, if that box is truly sealed, in the absence of any compelling factor, there should be no movement because any alleged vacuum would make that an impossibility. Maybe I'm missing how this applies to either thrust in space or the existence of any vacuum.

The box doesn't have to be impervious to everything, just the gas that it contains.

The box won't move when it is perfectly sealed, but will begin to move if a hole is opened on one side, allowing the gas to escape (assuming the environment has a lower pressure of gas).

I know it was a really long post, but I suggest giving it another read to see how it applies to thrust and pressure differences.

We understand that space is not a true vacuum, but that is not why thrusters work in space. If you know there is no vacuum in space, why claim that thrusters can't work in space, and be so hostile to the notion of spacetravel?

By the way, let's try to keep this civil, please... everyone...

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #188 on: 28/01/2015 20:20:52 »
Nowhere in the cosmos does a perfect vacuum exist. So, I'm afraid you are misinformed, or more likely, you are just being contrary and or contentious.

So the moment you introduce a rocket, it's no longer "space" (particularly if it is belching out exhaust gases), ergo the question is meaningless.
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #189 on: 28/01/2015 22:15:38 »
They stop working when there is no atmosphere at all. No atmosphere = no means of propulsion. Pretty basic actually.


Wrong.........................A rocket needs no air behind the exhaust to move. The motion of the rocket occurs because; While the force is applied in both directions, front and aft, the only end that feels the force is the sealed end.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2015 23:14:50 by Ethos_ »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #190 on: 28/01/2015 22:46:09 »
AlanCalverd: They stop working when there is no atmosphere at all. No atmosphere = no means of propulsion. Pretty basic actually. Maybe your altimeter is off, possible you know ;)

So in your experience (not opinion - this is a science forum), rockets become less efficient as the atmospheric pressure decreases. Have you told NASA and RFSA? Or the Chinese satellite companies, and everyone else who regularly flies rockets? Their experience seems quite different from yours.
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #191 on: 29/01/2015 02:08:33 »
Quote from: SteinUntStein
AlanCalverd: They stop working when there is no atmosphere at all. No atmosphere = no means of propulsion. Pretty basic actually. Maybe your altimeter is off, possible you know ;)
It's a very well established fact which can be derived as a theorem based on Newton's Third Law, and verified countless experimentally and in practice countless times, that what you keep claiming is 100% wrong? It's been demonstrated time and time again with every launch by NASA and other agencies of rockets into space that your claims are 100% BS. They simply do not stop working or even become less efficient when there is less atmosphere.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 11:19:17 by CliffordK »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #192 on: 29/01/2015 12:07:05 »
It's quite an amusing and interesting exercise, to claim some fundamental law of physics doesn't apply in some fairly common situation (rockets in space are fairly common these days - probably about 10,000 launches since sputnik). It allows one to refresh one's understanding of how these laws apply. But to persist as if serious smells of trolling. Many people are unable to grasp the principles of aerodynamics, yet they don't deny that planes fly.

The idea that if you don't understand it, it can't happen, or that the world necessarily conforms to one's naive understanding of it, is understandable, but to deny such a vast amount of evidence is perverse or delusional.

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Offline CliffordK

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #193 on: 30/01/2015 11:26:12 »
I've had a couple of complaints about this topic.
Please strive to keep the comments civil, and on topic.

I have been going through and removing some of the personal attacks, but I would expect board users to refrain from petty name calling and belittling others.

- Moderator -

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Offline SteinUntStein

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #194 on: 30/01/2015 14:59:44 »
Well this should be my last post since I have been censored and singled out as an insulter when all I am doing is counter-punching.
For everyone who "complained", and you know who you are: Thanks for proving my point. ALL my posts have been on topic and ALL were civil unless I was insulted first.
Your science is a fairy tale, a modern myth believed rabidly, tooth and nail, with all the blind acceptance of religious zealotry.
None of you here have been in space. None of you have seen thrusters work in space. None of you, I presume, has made any contribution to real science.
You are just parrots, rehashing the "science" I first knew as bad a decade ago.
So, in humble gratitude for your lack of any help, for your backstabbing and clandestine complaints to moderators because you got your little feelings hurt, because you cannot fight your own battles and prefer to ban the problem rather than correct it, for being hypocritical (YOU HERO FAGS can insult, but noone else can...), I want to say, go **** yourselves, and thanks for the new mission ;)

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #195 on: 30/01/2015 16:00:52 »
The understanding concerning propulsion has been misunderstood by the layman ever since rocketry first came on the scene. I remember my physics teacher asking our class in high school how we would explain the motion of a rocket. 100% of the class got it wrong! The common interpretation was that the exhaust coming out of the aft side of the rocket was pushing against the air behind it. Even after our physics teacher attempted to explain that the reason for the rockets acceleration was caused by the force applied to the forward end of the rocket, many of us were still questioning how that could be.

Not until I was much older and attending college did I finally understand the laws of motion. So when people don't understand how these phenomenon work, I can appreciate why they have their doubts. Nevertheless, when individuals resist the facts and refuse to be taught why things react the way they do according to the laws of physics, it becomes quite frustrating.

Given some time and proper examination of all the facts, those who misunderstand why a rocket works will eventually have that light bulb go off in their minds. These moments of growth in our understanding are the WOW moments in our lives and this is why I love science!
« Last Edit: 30/01/2015 17:38:46 by Ethos_ »
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #196 on: 30/01/2015 17:27:23 »
Well this should be my last post since I have been censored and singled out as an insulter when all I am doing is counter-punching.
Who're you kidding?? We all know that you were the one to respond with insults when we explained to you that you were wrong and ignorant of the correct physics. Like too many people you mistook the term "ignorant" to be an insult when in fact all it means is you lack knowledge in a particular area. We're all ignorant in some field but you used that and other things to launch ad hominem responses. Cliff is far to smart to be fooled by your claims. He's read your responses and knows what you did all along.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #197 on: 31/01/2015 06:13:48 »
The easiest way to understanding this is to look at the simplest situation. In a vacuum, think of a coin with a firecracker next to it right above its flat side. When the firecracker detonates the fragments smash against the coin and bounce off of it. Newton's third law tells us that the coin will rebound. You can look at a rocket engine as a controlled continuous explosion. This has nothing to do with the presence of an atmosphere. In fact it doesn't work as well with an atmosphere present.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #198 on: 31/01/2015 10:41:36 »
There seems little point in discussing this further with SuS until he has answered my question: at what point, during its ascent through the atmopsphere, has he observed the efficiency of a rocket to decrease?

Science is begins with data, not conjecture or analogy, and this is a science forum.
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: thrust does not work in space
« Reply #199 on: 31/01/2015 15:25:49 »
There seems little point in discussing this further with SuS until he has answered my question: at what point, during its ascent through the atmopsphere, has he observed the efficiency of a rocket to decrease?

Science is begins with data, not conjecture or analogy, and this is a science forum.
I agree Alan, but some members come to our forum expecting us to answer their questions in the affirmative while feeling no responsibility to answer ours. Such displays only prove their goals have nothing to do with sharing information but everything to do with exaggerating their egos.
« Last Edit: 31/01/2015 15:28:04 by Ethos_ »
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."