What is love and how do u know it is real?

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Offline 4getmenot

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What is love and how do u know it is real?
« on: 24/07/2006 20:24:52 »
When we r young we find a first "love" and we REALLY believe we love that person...yet we get a little older and decide that another person is loved more or differently and get with them...and this continues through our lives....does it mean that the first love was not really love? or does love change into other things? does it mean that the first love was not really love at all but that the last love was??? or was all of them really love? and if they all really were love then if u loved them y r they no longer part of your life????hmmm. what is love and how do u know it is real?????

k
k

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another_someone

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #1 on: 24/07/2006 21:21:33 »
This is a question I have asked myself since I was 10 years old.  I then came to the conclusion that love is a form of self delusion, and I am not sure to this day if I have a better answer than that.

Ofcourse, self delusion can be a very powerful and potent force, and can even cure some illnesses.

OK, I suppose the question of love is a very diverse one, since the word has been used to describe about half the human emotions one can be susceptible to.  In a sense, yes, it is a delusion, but it is also part of the illusion by which we create our place in our world, and by which we view how we relate the people closest to us.  In a sense, it is less important to us what it is, than that it provides the binding force that emotionally binds us to our closest points within our society, the people upon whom we choose to depend the greatest.  It is our imagined safety net (whether it actually works like that or not is another matter) that allows us to take the greatest risks with a few people.  Without it, we would not dare to take those risks.



George
« Last Edit: 24/07/2006 21:28:37 by another_someone »

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Offline gecko

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #2 on: 25/07/2006 17:18:45 »
love is not real. no one loves you.
 

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #3 on: 27/07/2006 05:13:58 »
when i have watched differnt shows about it, some say that......that love is a selfish thing, no one "really" oves another but for what that person makes" you " feel and claim as love. It is a good feeling you get to be around someone else that you call love...saying you love someone can be called false i guess because really what you are saying is " i love the way you make ME feel" therefore love yourself only right? or what someone can do for you or make you feel?

k
k

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #4 on: 27/07/2006 06:33:43 »
Interesting point....4getmenot...

"Lo" Loretta
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another_someone

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #5 on: 27/07/2006 11:16:00 »
What does it mean to be selfish or selfless.

Whatever love is, or is not, if both people feel good about it, then is it not both at once selfish and selfless for both of them.  It is only if one person feels good and the other is made to feel bad that you can ask who is being selfish and who is being selfless.



George

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #6 on: 27/07/2006 11:53:48 »
To love someone is different than to love a feeling or even just an image, and voice... You should see a person and their parts. Character, do you love it? Will, what is it about and their feelings and mind and heart too?

To love it means manners, so good manners, unselfishness, not self centred objectives and self interest only or at all. It involves kindness and patience in committment... I read 1Cor13.

It inovlves presence of mind, knowing the past and future, it has intelligence. If he is with a girl than to attract him is self centred in one angle and a misgiving generosity in another angle, to him.

If you have a first love, you could leave with him a piece of your soul, to varying extents, a lot if it involves sex.

Then your second love has a division too. Short of ideal, possibly conflicting.

Love can be possessive.

Lust can seem as love. It perhaps shows generaous affection but does not really care. A lustful person may lie though... really self centred.

Love involves committment so to leave the first love is not ideal. To take a second can possibly be cruel to the first and selfish to him.

You can hurt your love. Contradict it. You can be cruel.

Love is more than a feeling. Loving thought and discernemnt and committment should be. Use your mind and strength to avoid selfishness and cruelty.

Choose love, and think about how and who to love. Be faithful.

Titanscape
« Last Edit: 27/07/2006 11:58:01 by Titanscape »
Titanscape

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #7 on: 27/07/2006 12:49:35 »
After reading this, I want to fall in love again!  LOL Thanks Bren!

"Lo" Loretta
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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #8 on: 27/07/2006 05:13:58 »
when i have watched differnt shows about it, some say that......that love is a selfish thing, no one "really" oves another but for what that person makes" you " feel and claim as love. It is a good feeling you get to be around someone else that you call love...saying you love someone can be called false i guess because really what you are saying is " i love the way you make ME feel" therefore love yourself only right? or what someone can do for you or make you feel?

k
k

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #9 on: 27/07/2006 06:33:43 »
Interesting point....4getmenot...

"Lo" Loretta
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another_someone

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #10 on: 27/07/2006 11:16:00 »
What does it mean to be selfish or selfless.

Whatever love is, or is not, if both people feel good about it, then is it not both at once selfish and selfless for both of them.  It is only if one person feels good and the other is made to feel bad that you can ask who is being selfish and who is being selfless.



George

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #11 on: 27/07/2006 11:53:48 »
To love someone is different than to love a feeling or even just an image, and voice... You should see a person and their parts. Character, do you love it? Will, what is it about and their feelings and mind and heart too?

To love it means manners, so good manners, unselfishness, not self centred objectives and self interest only or at all. It involves kindness and patience in committment... I read 1Cor13.

It inovlves presence of mind, knowing the past and future, it has intelligence. If he is with a girl than to attract him is self centred in one angle and a misgiving generosity in another angle, to him.

If you have a first love, you could leave with him a piece of your soul, to varying extents, a lot if it involves sex.

Then your second love has a division too. Short of ideal, possibly conflicting.

Love can be possessive.

Lust can seem as love. It perhaps shows generaous affection but does not really care. A lustful person may lie though... really self centred.

Love involves committment so to leave the first love is not ideal. To take a second can possibly be cruel to the first and selfish to him.

You can hurt your love. Contradict it. You can be cruel.

Love is more than a feeling. Loving thought and discernemnt and committment should be. Use your mind and strength to avoid selfishness and cruelty.

Choose love, and think about how and who to love. Be faithful.

Titanscape
« Last Edit: 27/07/2006 11:58:01 by Titanscape »
Titanscape

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #12 on: 27/07/2006 12:49:35 »
After reading this, I want to fall in love again!  LOL Thanks Bren!

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline Grecian

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #13 on: 01/08/2006 18:24:49 »
Originally posted by another_someone
  What does it mean to be selfish or selfless.

Whatever love is, or is not, if both people feel good about it, then is it not both at once selfish and selfless for both of them.  It is only if one person feels good and the other is made to feel bad that you can ask who is being selfish and who is being selfless.


I totally agree with George.

Love you lots

Helena   xxx





 

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #14 on: 02/08/2006 04:18:06 »
Bravo little Helena!

"Lo" Loretta
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Offline Grecian

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #15 on: 02/08/2006 22:29:35 »



Why, thank you ma'am.


Love you lots

Helena  xxx


 

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #16 on: 03/08/2006 01:55:33 »
You are welcome little Helena!!!

"Lo" Loretta
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Offline Grecian

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #17 on: 05/08/2006 10:49:27 »



I must've been away when it was dished out LOL


Love you lots

Helena  xxx


 

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #18 on: 06/08/2006 01:27:54 »
yepperdoodle...

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Offline neilep

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #19 on: 06/08/2006 23:32:39 »
quote:
Originally posted by 4getmenot

When we r young we find a first "love" and we REALLY believe we love that person...yet we get a little older and decide that another person is loved more or differently and get with them...and this continues through our lives....does it mean that the first love was not really love? or does love change into other things? does it mean that the first love was not really love at all but that the last love was??? or was all of them really love? and if they all really were love then if u loved them y r they no longer part of your life????hmmm. what is love and how do u know it is real?????

k



Each love is different. No two loves are ever the same. they can not be...because it is different people who we are loving.

My first love was incredible....I had of course already poured out an abundance of love already to my family but this love...this First love was a new type of love...and that in itself makes it extra special....though, it does not set it aside as a love that one would never feel again.....the very fact that it's just the first is the uniqueness about it.

This first special love becomes for a lot of people not too long after puberty.....your body is literally oozing with the need to love...and to demonstrate that love....so...when the first love hits you...boy...does it hit you hard. And YES, it IS love...in every essence of the meaning of the word I have never found myself more torn to tears then the experience of this first love....so many landmark barriers may be fulfilled and accomplished in this first love.

The problem with the first love (s) is age...we do feel the love but we are not yet mature enough to deal with it adequately...so many mixed emotions going through your head for the very first time. First loves are notoriously fraught with short sharp shocks to reality...

This of course does not mean that love gets easier as one gets older....it can get quite a lot harder in fact.

Love DOES change....as mentioned....the love you have for one person is unique to that one person...it can not be ignored and will only be like that for that particular individual.

What is love ?....is that all ? [:)]

I don't think anyone really knows....there are ways to define the consequences perhaps...the symptoms maybe......like...when all you can do think of that person....when your every waking moment is monopolised by the thought of that person to the degree when the journey continues into your dreaming world....it is an intense emotional attraction on a scale that is far removed from what you may feel for a friend.........However, these are the symptoms of falling in love.....establishing an atmosphere of complete trust and total understanding....one where you know you can tell that person anything but at the same time feel happy to retain some privacy of your own....

...getting inside someones head to the degree that you know what they are thinking....and likewise of course.....this is love...it is also familiarity and if one is in love then one would know what the difference is.

Is it an illusion ?...only in that it's not a thing that can be held or seen as a separate entity in it's own right....but when the heart beat stronger and faster and the adrenalin begins to rush...when the skin starts to perspire and urge for closeness overtakes then this is where love is NOT an illusion but a manifestation within yourself.

All your loves ARE apart of your life....the people who shared that love may no longer be there but the love you had will always be. It does not necessarily mean then that if you were to meet that person again later in life that one could just so easily run away with them...no no no...for they will be different and so would you be...but it does happen...and it is very easy for love to rekindle the spark...though for some...it may just be a hankering to an earlier time and one may find that the spark is no longer there...but the memory of the love is
.

I really do not know what love is...after all it just a term that is used in a language to communicate an emotional state.

But everyone who is a member of a family should already know a what a form of love is...look to your parents, your siblings, your children...how do you FEEL about them ?..you love them don't you ?

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 06/08/2006 23:36:39 by neilep »
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #20 on: 07/08/2006 00:09:12 »
I don't know how i feel about them today...I could not have a bit of privacy after I awakened and in hopes of more sleep...aagghh!  lol

"Lo" Loretta
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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #21 on: 07/08/2006 04:27:03 »
most definatly....

k
k

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Offline neilep

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #22 on: 07/08/2006 05:06:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by moonfire

I don't know how i feel about them today...I could not have a bit of privacy after I awakened and in hopes of more sleep...aagghh!  lol

"Lo" Loretta



surely there was a time when you have loved ?[:)]

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #23 on: 07/08/2006 05:08:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by 4getmenot

most definatly....

k



...are you saying you have no love for your family K ?



Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #24 on: 07/08/2006 07:44:20 »
LOL  Yes, there was a time that I loved...but I loved and lost...roulette is nothing fun in the game of life...I love my family and only wish they would give me time to clear my head and give me a moment or two besides hearing me get up and then bombard my bedroom!!!

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #25 on: 09/08/2006 00:36:41 »
Seems like the busiest time in the bathroom is when I want to take a bath.....that just seems to always work out when everyone just wants to come in and talk...why is that???lolool...

k
k

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #26 on: 09/08/2006 04:27:44 »
You have kids right K?  Yep!  Same here...kid still bugs me when I am in the bathroom...he is 19 this Saturday!  LOL

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #27 on: 11/08/2006 04:34:28 »
lol....19??? yep, well i guess it doesn't stop then??? so i guess i CAN'T look forward to it getting any better...lol

k
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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #28 on: 11/08/2006 07:27:12 »
Psssst, K...I don't want my kid to see this so I am going to let you in on a secret...it is when they have moved out...LOCK the door, quick before they change their mind...awww, bubblebaths, candlelight, mozart, vin, and a daydream or two...oh, darn..my mom lives in my condo too!  Awww, send her on a vacation...and enjoy peace and quiet...oh, crudola...there is a cat who needs to be fed...glaring at me as if he knows I want to be left alone...cage him up in birdcage with Tweetie pie...let the strongest one win on the patio of course...back to my fantasy...sorry have to go...phone is ringing!  Drats!  Can't everyone leave me alone for a moment or two???

"Lo" Loretta
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Offline lightarrow

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #29 on: 11/08/2006 09:51:51 »
About Love, (by the way, this is the most important thing of life, to me) I feel there are many (maybe infinite?) kinds of it; when someone says, for example that, love between 14 y.o. boy and girl is only "childish" love, I don't agree with them. Can we judge what Love really is? Can we judge other's people feelings?
I was 26 when I fell in love for a girl the first time. Unfortunately, her intentions were not what she made me believe they were. She was much more experienced than me in love affairs (and also intelligent and smart). When she left me, and it was the worst experience of my life, she said I was didn't "really" love her, I was only idealizing her image. The reality is that she didn't really love me, she only wanted someone to play with, but I realized it only some months later (it was impossible for me to accept this idea immediately).

I don't think love can be something objective; if it was, would it still be love?
Indeed, I have never been in love so deep again in my life; I would like to repeat an experience of that kind (but with the right person, this time).

Love to you all.

Alberto.

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another_someone

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #30 on: 11/08/2006 12:31:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by lightarrow
About Love, (by the way, this is the most important thing of life, to me) I feel there are many (maybe infinite?) kinds of it; when someone says, for example that, love between 14 y.o. boy and girl is only "childish" love, I don't agree with them. Can we judge what Love really is? Can we judge other's people feelings?



As I said above, the word love is used to describe a very substantial proportion of the range of human emotions.

I assume what people are mostly focussing on is romantic love.

Even within that context, there is no reason why anyone who has gone through puberty cannot feel the emotions of romantic love (in past centuries, people would even be marrying at that age).

quote:


I was 26 when I fell in love for a girl the first time. Unfortunately, her intentions were not what she made me believe they were. She was much more experienced than me in love affairs (and also intelligent and smart). When she left me, and it was the worst experience of my life, she said I was didn't "really" love her, I was only idealizing her image. The reality is that she didn't really love me, she only wanted someone to play with, but I realized it only some months later (it was impossible for me to accept this idea immediately).



I do agree that there is a naivety about a first love that can never be repeated on subsequent occasions.

I think love does depend on an element of idealisation, but the question is whether the two parties are willing to co-operate in perpetuating that fiction.



George

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #31 on: 20/08/2006 16:43:31 »
so all love is real? Only as you grow it changes and becomes a diffeent kind of love? so again..how do you know which one is the "THE" one?

k
k

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #32 on: 20/08/2006 20:12:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by 4getmenot

so all love is real? Only as you grow it changes and becomes a diffeent kind of love? so again..how do you know which one is the "THE" one?


Because you believe it.

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #33 on: 20/08/2006 21:35:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by 4getmenot

so all love is real? Only as you grow it changes and becomes a diffeent kind of love? so again..how do you know which one is the "THE" one?

k



Is there a 'THE ONE' - I don't think so.  It is often a case of someone who is approximately right who just happens to be at the right time and the right place, and then both parties agree that they will put the work in to make the relationship work and grow.  It could just as easily have been any one of a million other people, but they were not there at the time.

Clearly, there are many people who would be the wrong one, but I don't think there is only one person who could have been the right one.



George

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #34 on: 20/08/2006 23:55:55 »
I call it the "acceptable one" not Mr. Right, not Mr. Perfect...my expectations would of course, set someone up to fail...

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #35 on: 21/08/2006 15:20:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by 4getmenot

so all love is real? Only as you grow it changes and becomes a diffeent kind of love? so again..how do you know which one is the "THE" one?

k



Is there a 'THE ONE' - I don't think so.  It is often a case of someone who is approximately right who just happens to be at the right time and the right place, and then both parties agree that they will put the work in to make the relationship work and grow.  It could just as easily have been any one of a million other people, but they were not there at the time.

Clearly, there are many people who would be the wrong one, but I don't think there is only one person who could have been the right one.



George




so when you meet someone and get that feeling yo have "never" felt before not sure what the feeling is and you assume it is love at first sight...it could have been the same feeling had it been any one of those other million people?? it was just that that person was "there" at the "right" time??/

k
k

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Offline neilep

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #36 on: 21/08/2006 18:15:03 »
I think the naivety of a first love IS repeated many times...One can just be plain predisposed to a naive nature...so. not just in matters of the heart but in matters of all....in fact..unless one Knows they are experiencing true love I think we are all naive in our perception of it.

The thing is...love is such a complex subject fraught with many avenues and branches of extremes and subtleties that no one really ever does know the definition....and yet....as Humans....boy do we like to talk about it...write about it..sing about it...in fact...a lot of the human experience is spent in matters of love...art..literature..philosophy...science forums....

...except....well...I think only you know when you are in love....

.......if you have to question it ? ..well..maybe you still could be in love but not realise it..........

.......Like has been said here ...love is subjective...but then so is every other emotion you can think of....even our senses are subjective and unless you experience love (and I am referring to the romantic love) then THAT is when you find your own definition of love is.

Some people shy away from love....they don't want it...perhaps they have suffered greatly because of love....maybe they do not wish the loss of control...of their individuality...

...for some Love is a trap....love is a cage...it's a loss of freedom...concentration...a madness !

It's bizarre that such a beautiful thing can cause so many extremes in other emotions too...

..can any one of us ever be sure of any feelings that we have ?

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline time-cop

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #37 on: 21/08/2006 20:23:58 »
quote:
After reading this, I want to fall in love again! LOL Thanks Bren!



hey, what you doin saturday "lo" [:D] [}:)]

all in one place
http://www.p-r-travel.co.uk

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Offline neilep

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #38 on: 21/08/2006 20:41:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by time-cop

quote:
After reading this, I want to fall in love again! LOL Thanks Bren!



hey, what you doin saturday "lo" [:D] [}:)]

all in one place
http://www.p-r-travel.co.uk



I don't know about LO...but I'm free on Saturday !! *blows him a kiss*  [:D]

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline time-cop

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #39 on: 21/08/2006 21:09:10 »
i`ll book a limo, and motel

all in one place
http://www.p-r-travel.co.uk

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #40 on: 22/08/2006 05:05:19 »
Oh my!  I see that there are cops and robbers loosely running around here...stealing some words and funning with me..oh, babe..this saturday night I can be free...if you can lose Denny, we can run around the fountains and play...hehe  Neilsy, you are such a thief!  LOL  Okay I will share him with you...or do you want to come out and play too?

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #41 on: 25/08/2006 01:23:08 »
I hear a party starting...and i "love" it...lol

k
k

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #42 on: 25/08/2006 01:52:23 »
K, there is plenty to go around...don't you feel love in the air now...awwwww, scratch that, it is only a fantasy!  Never wake me up out of it!

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #43 on: 25/08/2006 06:01:02 »
lol....i see that and i promise not to...(for now) he he

k
k

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #44 on: 25/08/2006 01:23:08 »
I hear a party starting...and i "love" it...lol

k
k

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #45 on: 25/08/2006 01:52:23 »
K, there is plenty to go around...don't you feel love in the air now...awwwww, scratch that, it is only a fantasy!  Never wake me up out of it!

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline 4getmenot

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #46 on: 25/08/2006 06:01:02 »
lol....i see that and i promise not to...(for now) he he

k
k

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Offline moonfire

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #47 on: 25/08/2006 06:24:05 »
Here you go K!  Something special I wrote on a few minutes ago thinking about the way my perspective is...ick!  LOL

When we fall in love with someone or make a new friend, we sometimes see that person in a glowing light. Their good qualities dominate the foreground of our perception and their negative qualities. They just don't seem to have any. This temporary state of grace is commonly known as putting someone on a pedestal. Often times we put spiritual leaders and our gurus on pedestals. We have all done this to someone at one time or another, and as long as we remember that no one is actually "perfect," the pedestal phase of a relationship can be enjoyed for what it is-a phase. It's when we actually believe our own projection that troubles arise.

Everyone has problems, flaws, and blind spots, just as we do. When we entertain the illusion that someone is perfect, we don't allow them room to be human, so when they make an error in judgment or act in contradiction to our idea of perfection, we become disillusioned. We may get angry or distance ourselves in response. In the end, they are not to blame for the fact that we idealized them. Granted, they may have enjoyed seeing themselves as perfect through our eyes, but we are the ones who chose to believe an illusion. If you go through this process enough times, you learn that no one is perfect. We are all a combination of divine and human qualities and we all struggle. When we treat the people we love with this awareness, we actually allow for a much greater intimacy than when we held them aloft on an airy throne. The moment you see through your idealized projection is the moment you begin to see your loved one as he or she truly is.

We cannot truly connect with a person when we idealize them. In life, there are no pedestals-we are all walking on the same ground together. When we realize this, we can own our own divinity and our humanity. This is the key to balance and wholeness within ourselves and our relationships.

"Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #48 on: 25/08/2006 09:27:06 »
quote:
Originally posted by moonfire
...The moment you see through your idealized projection is the moment you begin to see your loved one as he or she truly is...

I don't agree. I accept the fact that the way we see another person can change, you could say "it evolves". But we can never see how our loved one really is. Objectivity doesn't apply here.

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Offline thayo

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Re: What is love and how do u know it is real?
« Reply #49 on: 25/08/2006 09:57:23 »
love is bidirectional feature of a living being as the real love is seen when there is reciprocation of love/.

lets keep trying the untried since the birth of science innovations have been like  toy but their impacts have rocked the world
lets keep trying the untried since the birth of science innovations have been like  toy but their impacts have rocked the world