Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?

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Offline woolyhead

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #50 on: 18/11/2013 19:20:15 »
I think a good idea is to try to say how you would design an electronic system to have free will. Such words and phrases as "intelligence" and "make a choice" would be disallowed. You'd have to describe the blocks that do this and explain how they do it in terms that an electronics engineer and/or a programmer could understand. Apart form a whole lot of data about what's going on in the environment of the machine, ie the data being fed to it, he'd need a system of heirarchy for the various levels of importance which various facts can have, so that some form of automatic gating takes place to place the new facts (data) higher or lower on the list. Everything would have to be conditional on a number of other things so that when they change so could the importance levels. This is only to give a rough idea of what I'm proposing. To cater for all this the machine would need a lot of space and be very fast working. How would you describe such a machine? I would say that something like it goes on in our heads. The neurones have inside them quantum processes which involve the whole brain. These are housed inside micro tubules which contain virginal water for keeping the wave functions isolated until they are required. The final resolution of the U processes is not fully understood in quantum physics and all that happens is that as the wave function collapses we brutally replace U with an R process, which somehow misses the point. There is far more to the collapsing than we take into account and all the jumbo spoken about intelligence on this forum will be replaced by a new set of facts about how macro effects arise from quantum effects and intelligence  occurs.
« Last Edit: 22/11/2013 18:26:39 by woolyhead »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #51 on: 18/11/2013 20:06:42 »
I think a good idea is to try to say how you would design an electronic system to have free will. Such words and phrases as "intelligence" and "make a choice" would be disallowed. You'd have to describe the blocks that do this and explain how they do it in terms that an electronics engineer and/or a programmer could understand. Apart form a whole lot of data about what's going on in the environment of the machine, ie the data being fed to it, he'd need a system of heirarchy for the various levels of importance which various facts can have, so that some form of automatic gating takes place to place the new facts (data) higher or lower on the list. Everything would have to be conditional on a number of other things so that when they change so could the importance levels. This is only to give a rough idea of what I'm proposing. To cater for all this the machine would need a lot of space and be very fast working. How would you describe such a machine?
[/quote]

You do sound like our David Cooper .
We're no machines or computers ,silly , no living organism for that matter is , and no man-made machine can ever be sentient or living , let alone that it can ever possess any degree of free will , the latter that's a matter of the ...mind or consciousness mainly , even though sub-consciousness does play a role in our decision-making process ...

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Offline woolyhead

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #52 on: 19/11/2013 19:13:44 »
Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?

Hi, folks :

Do tell me about it,please .



See the following on the subject :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-o5-EYzTY [nofollow]

Thanks , appreciate indeed.

Cheers
As you can see, there are many points of view and no one can prove their one is correct. As I said, what I would do in order to answer the question is consider how you would design a machine which has free will. For example it could have a heirarchy of various priorities and agendas and its "decisions" about every issue that comes along could be determined according to how it fits in with this heirarchy. Whether you would call its decisions free or not depends on how you define free. I know we are regarded as being other than machines but to say that "no machine can ever have free will" is pedantic and unproveable.
I've read what was said about causative formation and it seems to ignore the fact that in quantum physics there is a mystery surrounding how quantum resolution takes place. In this the so called U-process is incomplete and the wave function mysteriously becomes the R-process. If this was understood better we would understand how morphic resonance and many other macroscopic effects occur. As I keep saying, inside the neurones there are probably quantum calculations going on and wave functions collapsing and giving rise to effects such as we haven't understood before, effects such as morphic resonance and intelligence and awareness. You all on this forum fail to get the point sometimes  :)
« Last Edit: 22/11/2013 18:10:04 by woolyhead »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #53 on: 19/11/2013 19:26:02 »
Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?

Hi, folks :

Do tell me about it,please .



See the following on the subject :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-o5-EYzTY

Thanks , appreciate indeed.

Cheers
As you can see, there are many points of view and no one can prove their one is correct. As I said, what I would do in order to answer the question is consider how you would design a machine which has free will. For example it could have a heirarchy of various agendas and its "decisions" about every issue that comes along could be determined according to how it fits in with this heirarchy. Whether you would call its decisions free or not depends on how you define free. I know we are regarded as being other than machines but to say that "no machine can ever have free will" is pedantic and unproveable.
[/quote]

Free will is mainly a matter of consciousness, even though sub-consciousness does play a role in just that :
Can anyone make sentient machines ?
Give me a break .
See above .
Ciao .

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Offline woolyhead

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #54 on: 19/11/2013 20:29:12 »
The brain does thus not do much in fact  , so to speak , the mind is the one doing almost everything , the brain merely generates the data it receives from our senses to be sent to our consciousness somehow thus , and then afterwards , the brain just receives back the corresponding process of the mind via reflecting its image , an image most scientists take for the cause of the process , thanks to materialism thus .

Which is why brain damage has no impact on the capability of the mind, and it's also why a fly can think every bit as well as a human, because its mind is not constrained by its tiny brain.

Brain damage just disconnects the specific brain damaged areas from their corresponding aspects of consciousness , it does not make the latter go away .
The physical brain is just the image of the process of consciousness, not its cause .
The physical brain as both a generator ( via our senses thus ) and a receiver of consciousness, the latter as some sort of a transmitter , i guess .
[/quote]
You seem to know a lot about the human brain. Do you consider that the system of neurons is all there is (apart from its support systems such as blood, lymph, cooling etc)? Have you read about the possibility of quantum entanglement that occurs between electrons inside the micro tubules inside the neurons? Perhaps these form a quantum computer? Ref. "Shadows of the mind" by Professor Sir Roger Penrose? Maybe this is where the free will comes from?

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #55 on: 20/11/2013 04:00:05 »
Okay, okay, let's say that everyone around the world, scientists included, accept the existence of the immaterial. What happens next, DonQuichotte?
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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #56 on: 20/11/2013 19:44:12 »
Okay, okay, let's say that everyone around the world, scientists included, accept the existence of the immaterial. What happens next, DonQuichotte?
[/quote
]

Ok, k, k : they will have to , they have no other choice but to do just that ,if they wanna deserve fully to be called true scientists at least,if all sciences for that matter wanna deserve fully to be called sciences at least  .
They can't just try to explain the whole pic , just via its physical or material side ,while assuming that that single side is all what there is to reality as a whole  no way , obviously .
Use your imagination then : all sciences will have to change radically : they will have to undergo no less than a revolutionary and radical shift of meta-paradigm , not just a paradigm shift : you will have to throw a lots of your presumed "scientific " knowledge out of the window , to start with , that has been just materialist crap, just materialist belief assumptions ...

Congratulations ...and condolences .


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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #58 on: 20/11/2013 21:00:53 »
Can you be more specific? What precisely will have to be modified about science? How will it affect our day-to-day lives? Will it help us be a better society? How will it change our behavior? If so, how?
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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #59 on: 20/11/2013 21:07:35 »
Can you be more specific? What precisely will have to be modified about science? How will it affect our day-to-day lives? Will it help us be a better society? How will it change our behavior? If so, how?
[/quote]

Time up, sorry : later ,then .
Check out your pm .
Take care .

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #60 on: 20/11/2013 21:09:12 »
Okay, okay, let's say that everyone around the world, scientists included, accept the existence of the immaterial. What happens next, DonQuichotte?

Quote
Use your imagination

hahahaa. great answer.
« Last Edit: 20/11/2013 21:12:03 by cheryl j »

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Offline RD

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #61 on: 21/11/2013 05:40:06 »
http://www.amazon.com/Morphic-Resonance-Nature-Formative-Causation/dp/1594773173

Quote from: psychology.wikia.com
[Rupert Sheldrake] put forward the hypothesis of formative causation (the theory of morphic resonance), which proposes that phenomena — particularly biological ones — become more probable the more often they occur, and therefore that biological growth and behaviour become guided into patterns laid down by previous similar events.
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake

The existence of minority groups like left-handers shows Rupert’s positive-feedback “morphic resonance” hypothesis does not correspond with reality :  the momentum of all the right-handed “morphic resonance” should make everyone right-handed .
   With positive-feedback once more than half the population had become right or left handed it would just a matter of time before everyone was born with the same handedness.

Similarly if Rupert was correct he , a white person , should not exist, as dark-skinned “morphic resonance” should make everyone on the planet dark-skinned.
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 17:51:53 by RD »

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #62 on: 21/11/2013 19:01:27 »
http://www.amazon.com/Morphic-Resonance-Nature-Formative-Causation/dp/1594773173

Quote from: psychology.wikia.com
[Rupert Sheldrake] put forward the hypothesis of formative causation (the theory of morphic resonance), which proposes that phenomena — particularly biological ones — become more probable the more often they occur, and therefore that biological growth and behaviour become guided into patterns laid down by previous similar events.
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake

The existence of minority groups like left-handers shows Rupert’s positive-feedback “morphic resonance” hypothesis does not correspond with reality :  the momentum of all the right-handed “morphic resonance” should make everyone right-handed .
   With positive-feedback once more than half the population had become right or left handed it would just a matter of time before everyone was born with the same handedness.

Similarly if Rupert was correct he , a white person , should not exist, as dark-skinned “morphic resonance” should make everyone on the planet dark-skinned.
[/quote]

What interests me most in that fascinating book of Sheldrake is what science is ...not .
Physics and chemistry alone cannot account for life ,let alone  for  its origins emergence or evolution that cannot be just material or physical ,  the same goes for human language , morphogenesis,and the rest  ....+consciousness  ,including matter itself that cannot be just material or physical (see quantum physics ,regarding the latter ) , including evolution itself that cannot be just ...biological ...

Use your imagination then : Cheryl seems to find this latter so hilarious ,that's why i repeat it, just to please her : use your imagination then : i am serious haha.

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Offline RD

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #63 on: 21/11/2013 19:31:14 »
Physics and chemistry alone cannot account for life ,let alone  for  its origins emergence or evolution that cannot be just material or physical ,  the same goes for human language , morphogenesis ...

Chemistry has got morphogenesis covered ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_chemical_basis_of_morphogenesis

Quote from: wikipedia.org/Reaction–diffusion system
In recent times, reaction–diffusion systems have attracted much interest as a prototype model for pattern formation. The above-mentioned patterns (fronts, spirals, targets, hexagons, stripes and dissipative solitons) can be found in various types of reaction-diffusion systems in spite of large discrepancies e.g. in the local reaction terms. It has also been argued that reaction-diffusion processes are an essential basis for processes connected to morphogenesis in biology and may even be related to animal coats and skin pigmentation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction%E2%80%93diffusion_system#Applications_and_universality
« Last Edit: 21/11/2013 19:42:20 by RD »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #64 on: 21/11/2013 20:25:22 »


Physics and chemistry alone cannot account for life ,let alone  for  its origins emergence or evolution that cannot be just material or physical ,

not proven

Quote
  the same goes for human language , morphogenesis,and the rest  ....+consciousness  ,

not proven

Quote
including matter itself that cannot be just material or physical (see quantum physics ,regarding the latter ) ,

not proven

Quote
including evolution itself that cannot be just ...biological ...

not proven

Quote
Use your imagination then : Cheryl seems to find this latter so hilarious ,that's why i repeat it, just to please her : use your imagination then : i am serious haha.

What's hilarious about the "use your imagination" comment is that it illustrates so well that you yourself have no idea what the immaterial is or is not, and cannot say how science should incorporate the immaterial into experiments, or verify findings related to immaterial, you just claim over and over that it should do so. 

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Offline woolyhead

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #65 on: 22/11/2013 18:38:53 »
We seem to think that what the neurones do cannot explain intelligence. Why ever not? How they do it is the mystery. Inside them are quantum processes which couple with the whole brain. When the wave functions collapse the R process does not explain everything. Once we understand this effect in quantum theory we will understand how quantum process affects macro events. Until then we don't. So we don't understand how intelligence occurs.

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #66 on: 24/11/2013 04:22:35 »
If society as a whole accepted the existence of the immaterial, that would seem problematic. By your own admission, science cannot test for the immaterial and therefore can make no discovery in regards to it. That means our conclusions about the nature of the immaterial would have to be philosophical and based soley upon our own reasoning and/or personal experience. The question then becomes, how can we ever know anything definitive about the immaterial if we cannot come to any agreement upon its nature? Surely different people will have different opinions about it. You can't even use science to figure out who is right. I have a hard time figuring out how society could be benefited by this. If it can't help us, should we even bother trying to prove it?
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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #67 on: 24/11/2013 18:59:32 »
If society as a whole accepted the existence of the immaterial, that would seem problematic. By your own admission, science cannot test for the immaterial and therefore can make no discovery in regards to it. That means our conclusions about the nature of the immaterial would have to be philosophical and based soley upon our own reasoning and/or personal experience. The question then becomes, how can we ever know anything definitive about the immaterial if we cannot come to any agreement upon its nature? Surely different people will have different opinions about it. You can't even use science to figure out who is right. I have a hard time figuring out how society could be benefited by this. If it can't help us, should we even bother trying to prove it?
[/quote]

Who said that ? Opinions do change , you know : they are not static,nothing is in fact  : see this on the subject :  only idiots fools or materialists can't change their minds ,not even in the face of counter-evidence :

7 Experiments that could change the world :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gHhKTrFfZ0


P.S.: Who said humanity or society cannot benefit from rejecting materialism in science ? : the benefits will be huge : more huge than we can ever imagine .
I do think that the next and much more important level of human evolution will be occuring at the very level of ...consciousness , the latter that's THE key to revealing most of the mysteries within and without : we can only try to imagine what that might deliver in the future ,for humanity as a whole : that's beyond our imagination even ,at this point of history at least .

See this as well  on the subject , while you are at it :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1sr9x263LM
« Last Edit: 24/11/2013 19:06:29 by DonQuichotte »

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #68 on: 25/11/2013 01:47:27 »
Quote
the benefits will be huge : more huge than we can ever imagine .

Give us some examples.
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Offline AndroidNeox

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #69 on: 25/11/2013 19:30:43 »
Personally, I must take the position that, until I find a self-consistent definition of "free will" I'll have to doubt its existence.

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #70 on: 26/11/2013 05:19:47 »
Personally, I must take the position that, until I find a self-consistent definition of "free will" I'll have to doubt its existence.

I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean by self consistent, but its a puzzling concept, regardless. I like Patricia Churchlands description of it:

 "A rigid philosophical tradition claims that no choice is free unless it is uncaused;that is, unless the"will" is exercised independently of all causal influences - in a causal vacuum."

This problem doesn't have a lot to do with materialism or anti-materialism. Religious sects like Calvinism believed in predestination for reasons that had nothing to do with brains. If God is omniscient, then He knows what you are going to do before you do it. If you "change your mind" and take a different path, it's only because He decided that that is what should happen. If its preordained, then there's no way out, there's no way things could have been any different from the way things turned out, regardless of the reason.
« Last Edit: 26/11/2013 05:46:51 by cheryl j »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #71 on: 26/11/2013 07:35:49 »
I have abstained from this argument so far, on the grounds that we have no agreed definition of free will, which makes the exercise as pointless as a discussion of consciousness.

But I think we can agree that complete freedom of action is not possible. Even in the absence of societal restraints, we are still bound by the laws of physics.

So whilst there might be no limits on your imagination, we cannot demonstrate, or even verbalise, every imaginable action. 

Hence free will is not demonstrable, so its existence cannot be proved.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #72 on: 26/11/2013 14:57:58 »
Free will is indeed something that puzzles me. Every time we make a decision, presumably there is a reason behind it. Ultimately, that reason will come from something beyond ourselves. If I decide to eat a cookie, it is at least partially because my brain has a reward system set up that activates when sugar is consumed. I could decide to avoid eating the cookie on the grounds that I am on a diet, but that too is ultimately based on outside influences (a desire to be healthier or to fit a public image of attractiveness). If we were to make a decision that isn't based on any reasoning at all, then isn't the decision pretty much random? If a decision is completely random, can it be said that we actually had any part in making it in the first place? For me to say that "I can't imagine how free will could exist, therefore it does not" would be the argument from incredulity, so I cannot say that free will is impossible. However, it would be nice to see some sound argument in support of its existence.
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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #73 on: 26/11/2013 16:10:25 »
The only way I can make sense of the idea is to think of it more in terms of flexibility, the number of possible choices or outcomes per one input or stimulus. A lizard might only have one response to a stimulus, and that stimulus has reach a certain threshold. A dog, a chimp, a human, has many possible responses, and a lot more stumuli are evaluated and compared in determining a response. The difference between less conscious animals and more conscious animals, is that humans or chimps go back and evaluate the outcome of their responses (in the words of Dr. Phil "hows that working for you?") and they incorporate that information in determining what they do next time. A lizard has a lot less flexibility in that respect and probably just runs the exact same program over and over.

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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #74 on: 26/11/2013 20:17:47 »
Folks :

I do suggest that we all should move back ,or restrict ourselves to the consciousness thread , in order to discuss these highly fascinating issues ,simply because almost all of these issues and more can be be brought back to the hard problem of consciousness ,the latter that's THE key to understanding ourselves and this universe within and without, instead of "fragmenting " our energies and time on multiple threads  .

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #75 on: 26/11/2013 20:49:38 »
I do agree that we need to consolidate this whole immaterial argument into one thread. Having it spread out over several different ones is just sloppy. Heck, I'm considering giving up on the whole thing because nobody is making any real progress in any direction despite the massive number of responses that we've thrown at each other.
« Last Edit: 26/11/2013 20:51:55 by Supercryptid »
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Offline DonQuichotte

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #76 on: 26/11/2013 21:51:28 »
I do agree that we need to consolidate this whole immaterial argument into one thread. Having it spread out over several different ones is just sloppy. Heck, I'm considering giving up on the whole thing because nobody is making any real progress in any direction despite the massive number of responses that we've thrown at each other.
[/quote]

Right : we are not pretending to try  though to solve these big issues ,we are just exchanging thoughts about them : i did get learn a lot from the insights of people here that did lead me to unexpected sources and ideas,you have no idea  .
Just try to do the same then ,also by checking my displayed sources and material all over these threads , especially on the consciousness thread .

So, all these discussions are just supposed to be a starting point in one's own research on the matter .
Good luck with your own re-search and journey .
Thanks, appreciate indeed .
Take care .

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #77 on: 26/11/2013 23:07:18 »
The difference between less conscious animals and more conscious animals, is that humans or chimps go back and evaluate the outcome of their responses ..... A lizard has a lot less flexibility in that respect and probably just runs the exact same program over and over.

I think the underlying suggestion that cold-blooded animals are less able to reflect, learn or solve problems, lacks evidence, though you may have some.  There is considerable evidence of the ability of octopi to solve problems and to learn from the actions of humans, and ants on the march seem at least as intelligent as human crowds.

You need to map the idea of learning, reflection, or whatever, into the space of the physical capability of the animal you are studying. Hence you can't dismiss dogs as "intellectually unable to use tools" because they simply don't have the anatomical ability to manipulate a prosthetic device, nor any need to count beyond about six - though their understanding of differential calculus is way beyond that of most humans. So I guess your lizard is a bit restricted in its range of potential responses and prior life experiences from which to draw analogies that you might recognise. But he might consider growing a new tail or walking on the ceiling as experiences and responses which are way beyond your ken or ability!
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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #78 on: 26/11/2013 23:59:22 »

I think the underlying suggestion that cold-blooded animals are less able to reflect, learn or solve problems, lacks evidence, though you may have some.  There is considerable evidence of the ability of octopi to solve problems and to learn from the actions of humans, and ants on the march seem at least as intelligent as human crowds.

You need to map the idea of learning, reflection, or whatever, into the space of the physical capability of the animal you are studying. Hence you can't dismiss dogs as "intellectually unable to use tools" because they simply don't have the anatomical ability to manipulate a prosthetic device, nor any need to count beyond about six - though their understanding of differential calculus is way beyond that of most humans. So I guess your lizard is a bit restricted in its range of potential responses and prior life experiences from which to draw analogies that you might recognise. But he might consider growing a new tail or walking on the ceiling as experiences and responses which are way beyond your ken or ability!

I would agree with that. And it seems unlikely that learning or problem solving just popped into existence with homo sapiens.
I once watched an ant circle a dead bug on a picnic table, and push it off the edge. It made the long trek down to where the dead bug landed and hauled it away. Maybe they do that all the time, I don't know, but it seemed rather clever.

This month's issue of Scientific American has an article about face recognition by wasps. (Wasps can recognize faces. They didn't write an article about face recognition.) Anyway, it says  that paper wasps "can perceive and memorize one anothers unique facial markings and are able to use information to distinguish individuals during subsequent interactions, much as humans navigate their social environment by learning and remembering the faces of family, friends and colleagues" and "can at times even learn to tell human faces apart." The article also says wasps don't respond to facial features separately, but perceive and process the face as whole.
"The occurrence of face specialization in both humans and wasps suggests that this mechanism could be more wide spread in the animal kingdom than previously thought."

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Offline AndroidNeox

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #79 on: 09/12/2013 20:32:10 »
Personally, I must take the position that, until I find a self-consistent definition of "free will" I'll have to doubt its existence.

I'm not exactly sure I know what you mean by self consistent, but its a puzzling concept, regardless. I like Patricia Churchlands description of it:

 "A rigid philosophical tradition claims that no choice is free unless it is uncaused;that is, unless the"will" is exercised independently of all causal influences - in a causal vacuum."
Churchland's description perfectly sets up my problem with "free will" definitions. How does one make a free choice?

The choice must be based on the the nature of the individual. Where does that nature come from? It comes from inheritance, environment, and random chance; all of which are outside factors.

If choice is causal then it must be dependent upon factors that predate, or at least are external to, the individual. If choice is not causal then it's outside of the individual's control.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #80 on: 10/12/2013 20:54:01 »
...(Prior note :
This thread was just inspired by dlorde's relative explanations of the maths of chaos to me ,that's all .
So, i just wanted to hear his own opinion on the subject of free will ,since he said that free will can exist even within a deterministic universe .
Stuff like that .)
Uh-huh. Usually when people want my opinion on something they ask me. If they create a thread for the purpose, they let me know. Just sayin'.

But as you derailed your own thread to bang on about materialism in science, I wonder whether you're still interested.

If you are still interested, we need to define what we're talking about. I have yet to hear a coherent non-compatibilist definition for free will, so please give a clear and unambiguous definition or explanation of precisely what you mean by 'free will', and I'll give a detailed response.


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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #81 on: 10/12/2013 21:18:22 »
I do agree that we need to consolidate this whole immaterial argument into one thread. Having it spread out over several different ones is just sloppy. Heck, I'm considering giving up on the whole thing because nobody is making any real progress in any direction despite the massive number of responses that we've thrown at each other.
And the reason for that dilemma revolves around the eminent fact that the subject matter in these threads is more about philosophy, and or faith, than it is about science. I suggest we offer a philosophy category at NSF and move these threads to that location.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2013 21:40:28 by Ethos_ »
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #82 on: 10/12/2013 22:02:33 »
There are many intriguing scientific aspects to free will and consciousness, and we could discuss them, if certain individuals didn't derail every thread they enter to bloviate about their personal obsessions...

It seems to me that only firm moderation can manage that kind of thing.

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #83 on: 10/12/2013 22:09:07 »
There are many intriguing scientific aspects to free will and consciousness, and we could discuss them, if certain individuals didn't derail every thread they enter to bloviate about their personal obsessions...

It seems to me that only firm moderation can manage that kind of thing.
Agreed...................we patiently wait!!!!!!!!!!
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #84 on: 06/02/2014 00:11:34 »
Some neurologists say that the big questions or the hard problem of consciousness or free will may be solved by answering the easy ones, and when I see articles like this, I tend to agree. If it doesn't explain free will, it does seem to explain why we feel as though we have it. It also demonstrates top-down control, something that critics of reductionist neuroscience say is missing.

Pinpointing the brain's arbitrator: Reliability weighed before brain centers given control
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140205133254.htm

"With the results from those tests in hand, the researchers were able to compare the fMRI data and choices made by the subjects against several computational models they constructed to account for behavior. The model that most accurately matched the experimental data involved the two brain systems making separate predictions about which action to take in a given situation. Receiving signals from those systems, the arbitrator kept track of the reliability of the predictions by measuring the difference between the predicted and actual outcomes for each system. It then used those reliability estimates to determine how much control each system should exert over the individual's behavior. In this model, the arbitrator ensures that the system making the most reliable predictions at any moment exerts the greatest degree of control over behavior.

'What we're showing is the existence of higher-level control in the human brain,' says Sang Wan Lee, lead author of the new study and a postdoctoral scholar in neuroscience at Caltech. 'The arbitrator is basically making decisions about decisions.'"

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #85 on: 06/02/2014 01:32:00 »


'What we're showing is the existence of higher-level control in the human brain,' says Sang Wan Lee, lead author of the new study and a postdoctoral scholar in neuroscience at Caltech. 'The arbitrator is basically making decisions about decisions.'"[/size]
What I found very interesting was the observation that habitual behavior was more or less the default mode for this decision making. And only when more goal directed behavior was recognized as necessary was the arbitrator given authority over this default mode. Curious what complex beings we humans are......................?
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #86 on: 06/02/2014 16:06:20 »
It seems to me that we tend to become consciously aware of the decision-making process (rather than just its results) when such arbitration is necessary. When the options are very closely matched in estimated suitability, or neither appears sufficiently reliable to enable a good choice, additional resources must be recruited to supply additional information to weigh on either side, or to increase the apparent reliability of an option. The more additional resources are needed, or the wider the mental net is cast for more information, the more widespread the neural activation and the more consciously aware we become of it.

I find this most noticeable when there is a trivial choice to be made, about which I have no preference, or where my preference is balanced by some other (often social) constraint, and yet there is pressure (often social) to make a definite choice (e.g. "Chocolate or strawberry?" or "Would you like the last biscuit?"). In these situations, instead of becoming aware of responding with an obvious answer (e.g. "No" to, "Do you take sugar?"), I become aware of casting around for some new data to enable an acceptable choice, and thinking, "this ought to be really easy - but it's not..."

An interesting take on free will I heard recently:

"If you do what you do because of the way you are, then to change what you do you must change the way you are, but to change the way you are you must change what you do, and you do what you do because of the way you are..."
« Last Edit: 06/02/2014 16:10:20 by dlorde »

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #87 on: 06/02/2014 17:38:37 »



I find this most noticeable when there is a trivial choice to be made, about which I have no preference, or where my preference is balanced by some other (often social) constraint, and yet there is pressure (often social) to make a definite choice (e.g. "Chocolate or strawberry?"
This is the conflict of choice we all face isn't it, to abide by the social norm or to make our decision based upon individual preference. Causes one to consider the difference between the personal aim and the hive mentality. Are we as a society evolving toward a hive structure when social aims become dominant in our thought processes? And if so, will we ultimately grow into a social structure similar to a very advanced bee hive or ant colony? Will the individual cease to exist as we move closer to the domination of the hive?
Quote from: delorde
An interesting take on free will I heard recently:

"If you do what you do because of the way you are, then to change what you do you must change the way you are, but to change the way you are you must change what you do, and you do what you do because of the way you are..."
Indeed, sounds very deterministic to me and quite logical IMO.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Is The Free Will Just an Elaborate ...Illusion ?
« Reply #88 on: 06/02/2014 18:02:13 »
... Are we as a society evolving toward a hive structure when social aims become dominant in our thought processes? And if so, will we ultimately grow into a social structure similar to a very advanced bee hive or ant colony? Will the individual cease to exist as we move closer to the domination of the hive?
I don't think so - we have too great a variation in individual traits and abilities, and a strong (and sometimes labile) drive towards multiple group affiliation at multiple levels (family, friends, team, interests, beliefs, age group, town, county, country, etc).

Quote
Quote from: dlorde
An interesting take on free will I heard recently:

"If you do what you do because of the way you are, then to change what you do you must change the way you are, but to change the way you are you must change what you do, and you do what you do because of the way you are..."
Indeed, sounds very deterministic to me and quite logical IMO.
It becomes tricky if the way you are means you can change what you do, i.e. you're the sort of person who can change the way you are - including a (one-time) change to being the sort of person who can't change the way you are.

This exposes a flaw in that kind of thinking about the problem - that there is a self-referential complication; for example, there are the many traits and behaviours that make up the sort of person you are, which may or may not be changeable, and there are also the traits that (may) make you the sort of person who can change those many traits and behaviours (or not).
« Last Edit: 06/02/2014 19:00:28 by dlorde »