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Some conflicting reports from a search on cod liver oil and cancer. It appears there is interest in researching this issue, but it needs to be cultivated. The bad news first. This one shows a potential negative link between cod liver oil use and risk of developing cutaneous malignant melanoma. Some concerns about the results are noted in the abstract.2: Int J Cancer. 1997 May 16;71(4):600-4.Diet and risk of cutaneous malignant melanoma: a prospective study of 50,757Norwegian men and women.Veierod MB, Thelle DS, Laake P.
Considering the view, I wonder if I could find a sponsor to send me there to search for information? Wouldn't any study need to consider if the subjects take cod liver oil, vitamin D supplements, as well as determine any participant's vitamin D level? I did a quick search on vitamin D deficiency in Norway and it looks like many studies focus on deficiency in immigrant groups, so even that information is taking time to locate. How could study problems related to taking cod liver oil be overcome?
Because there would be more extensive news coverage, more of the reading public would become "aware" of deficiency and its symptoms. Their increased level of awareness may prompt them to go to the health food store and purchase vitamin D, whether or not they belong to the group making the news.
1: Am J Clin Nutr. 1992 Sep;56(3):533-6.Effect of iron on serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin Dconcentrations.Heldenberg D, Tenenbaum G, Weisman Y.Department of Pediatrics, Hillel-Yaffe Memorial Hospital, Hadera, Israel.In 13 of 17 infants (aged 10.5 +/- 4.3; mean +/- SD mo) with iron-deficiencyanemia, the serum 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D concentration was below the normalrange and in 9 of these 13 the serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentration was belowthe normal range despite the fact that these infants received 10 microgramsvitamin D/d from the age of 1 mo. The infants were treated with intramusculariron dextran (Imferon). The iron-dextran treatment increased the hemoglobin andserum iron concentrations as well as 25-hydroxyvitamin D and24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D concentrations. It is known that iron deficiencyimpairs fat and vitamin A intestinal absorption. Therefore, it is suggested thatabsorption of vitamin D may also be impaired. This may contribute to thedevelopment of vitamin D deficiency. Iron supplementation may have improved theabsorption of vitamin D in the small intestine and hence increased the vitamin Dconcentration in the plasma.
Quote from: iko on 29/03/2007 21:56:42George seems too much worried to umbalance a natural condition, but I insist in saying that at the recommended doses it might be only a waste of money at worst.BTW George, I am still waiting for your comments on the 'Shanghai report' and the engineers versus docs issue...where everything started from, last August.When you get bored of vitamin intoxication issues, of course.ikodThat was a long while back – had to search for it – did not even remember whether I had read it at the time or not (may have done, but just forgotten about it).http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=4987.0It covers a number of issues, but if you want to start with the comparison between the engineering issue and the medical one. I was going to list all of the differences between the medical profession and the engineering profession that might explain those apparent differences, but then realised that actually, in this context, there is not that much difference between the way the medical profession and the engineering profession react. The difference rather arises from the nature of the two incidents you report.The flight safety issue is a negative issue (the engineers are warning what not to do, they are not saying what should be done). If you look at the usage of drugs today, it is much more difficult to introduce a new drug to the market than it is to have a drug withdrawn from the market as soon as there are any negative side effects found amongst the users of the drug (this is even true for those drugs that have many users who are totally happy with the drug – but fear of litigation from the minority will rapidly cause the drug to be removed from the market).The aircraft industry is somewhat smaller than the medical industry, so things can happen more rapidly in the aircraft industry than in the medical industry, but it is still the case that getting a new component for an aircraft accepted takes much longer than getting one banned from use.With regard to the Shanghai report itself (I have only seen the abstract, not the actual report), it provides a wide list of correlations, but as I have often pointed out, correlation does not equate to a causal link (I am not trying to argue against a link between vitamin D and leukaemia, it is merely that the report does not appear to be looking for specific causative agents, only to interesting correlations that would provide directions for future research). It seems that the report found quite a spectrum of correlations, but the mere breadth of that spectrum would mean that any one single correlation would only be one amongst many.Clearly, given your own particular interest, the report speaks to you in a particular way; but such a wide (and apparently shallow) report could easily give very different messages to somebody looking for another message to read from it.Why did the authors not shout louder about the cod liver oil aspect of their report? It seems to me they were more concerned with looking for environmental risk factors rather than protective factors, and in that context, a protective factor was merely a distraction (although it does seem strange why they even recording something that they were not interested in, unless they were simply trying to discount for it so that they effect did not distort their other results).One serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products. This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.
George seems too much worried to umbalance a natural condition, but I insist in saying that at the recommended doses it might be only a waste of money at worst.BTW George, I am still waiting for your comments on the 'Shanghai report' and the engineers versus docs issue...where everything started from, last August.When you get bored of vitamin intoxication issues, of course.ikod
Thank you so much for your reply!I think I'm going to copy into the topic,for the next weeks 'viewers'
QuoteOne serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products. This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.GeorgeThere should be no major problem in the next few years.Supplying leukemic patients won't do a great change in that market...I wouldn't talk of an expanding market.Cod liver oil is too cheap and we need small doses: many people are busy trying to prove it is potentially toxic and packed with any pollutant you can imagine.My doubts about synthetic compounds come from the fact that the so called 'evidence' is for the natural mixture and only an epidemiological one.Different substances and their complex interactions may be involved.I hope that some parent finds it through the web. We'll see.Thanks to this forum.
One serious problem with cod liver oil is the total collapse of the cod sticks and the cod fishing industry – it is in no position to try to satisfy new and expanding markets for its products. This, if nothing else, demands that in the long run only a synthetic substitute for cod liver oil could be sustainably sold to an expanding marketplace.George
Insofar as it is used merely as a treatment, then I would agree that usage will be slight. I was not clear if you were looking to use it only for treatment, or also as a preventative measure.George
Yes, you are corny enough. I thought you may be drinking fermented cod liver oil.Zoey
My main regret is not having the knowledge to upload pictures. Maybe you should have taken up painting.It is definitely time to take all this jazz about cod liver oil seriously, by teaspoonful, and earful:Listen to Cod Liver Oil and Orange Juice by Hamish Imlach for free on Rhapsody.
In this context cod liver oil should be recommended.Even if you found that kids having orange juice in the morning have a reduced risk of leukemia, and all your data were statistically correct, a dispatch should be immediately sent to all the people concerned, parents, families, even doctors (don't tell them that there is no controlled trial available!). It is a sort of emergency, almost one third of patients have a relapse in the crucial 2-5 years after diagnosis. A relapsed leukemia does NOT respond to further standard treatments, so a more toxic intervention is required.In relapsed lymphoblastic leukemia you may have a resistant disease even after radiation therapy plus bone marrow transplantation in 50% of patients.In conclusion, anything simple, nontoxic and inexpensive, that is even only suspected to help a minority of children, should be quite welcome in this field.iko
I’ve met with a register dietitian at the hospital, but unfortunately the meeting was very frustrating. Therefore, I met with a local nutritionist that emphasized the importance of CLO and Probiotics among other things. We discuss cellular repair through nutrition and how certain micronutrients deficiency can cause DNA damage associated with leukemia. I’ll continue working with her and hoping we’re making the right choices.
Considering the events and the fact that my son has been taking CLO on and off since he was 6-months-old, is it possible that the first set of symptoms (enlarged lymph nodes plus petechiae at 12-months) was a pre-leukemia event or even the presence of leukemia that resolved itself?Mel Greaves’s hypothesis: “the final hit may be infectious”How does that relate to non-isolated relapses? Considering that the genetic pre disposition was already present and that chemotherapy doesn’t fix DNA/gene lesion the same line of events/infection(s) has to take place again for a relapse? Or, non-isolated relapses are a mere product of clones or residual leukemic cells?
Hi Zoey,we're making an hypertopic here...It's nice to quit my monologue for a change!QuoteAlso, do you think a child's level of vitamins A and D would affect the tendency to develop leukemia? If so, would children living in areas where deficiency in these nutrients are common might have a higher incidence of developing the disease?Getting back onto the subject of treatment, what other nutritional factors do you think would work along with cod liver oil to overcome the negative effects of treatment?ZoeyIf we consider a multifactorial etiology in a fortunately rare disease, vitamin D and A+omega-3 may play a minor role together with all the rest. Other factors interacting make quite difficult to catch a significant difference.In underdeveloped countries leukemias are less represented compared to lymphomas. Urban (and wealthy?) people seem to be more exposed.We may expect that a malnourished child, affected by multiple deficiencies could die from infection way before developing a leukemia (Hypothesis!). If you search for a connection with lower vitamin D levels...well in USA coloured children have a slightly higher incidence of this disease. This is just speculating...vitamin D levels should be tested more extensively after the Mansoura study in Egypt.In my opinion, this would be the only way to estabilish a connection.Other nutritional factors -mainly antioxidants- may help to overcome the negative effects of treatment.It was summer then, and we had tons of squeezed icy lemon juice and fresh garlic bread from time to time (pure empirism)...There are some studies about eating more healthy food and avoiding some toxic effect...Low antioxidant vitamin intakes are associated with increases in adverse effects of chemotherapy in children witn acute lymphoblastic leukemia...Chemotherapy leads to an increase in reactive oxygen species, which stresses the antioxidant defense system. Children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia rarely are overtly malnourished, which makes this population ideal for an investigation of the relations between dietary antioxidant consumption, plasma antioxidant concentrations, and chemotherapy-induced toxicity. ...a 6-mo observational study of 103 children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Plasma micronutrient concentrations, dietary intakes, and incidence of side effects of chemotherapy were ascertained at diagnosis and after 3 and 6 mo of therapy... Conclusion: A large percentage of children undergoing treatment for acute lymphoblastic leukemia have inadequate intakes of antioxidants and vitamin A. Lower intakes of antioxidants are associated with increases in the adverse side effects of chemotherapyKennedy D et al. Am J Clin Nutr 2004;79:1029-36.http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/6/1029 Antioxidant-Rich Diet Helps Fight LeukemiaAs if undergoing chemotherapy isn't trying enough, kids with the most common form of childhood leukemia receiving this treatment may also experience a significant reduction in their antioxidant and micronutrient levels. This decrease could lead to severe side effects from the chemotherapy. However, there may be a ray of hope amidst this dark cloud. According to a study, children could improve antioxidant and micronutrient levels and prevent some of the adverse side effects of chemotherapy by simply incorporating more fruits and vegetables into their diets. The study, prompted by parental concern regarding children's safety in taking antioxidant supplements (such supplements might affect the high cure rate experienced with leukemia), involved more than 100 recently diagnosed children with acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL). The children had their antioxidant levels, antioxidant capacity and oxidative damage measured during their first six months of chemotherapy treatment. FindingsBlood levels of vitamin E decreased over time, while vitamin A and total carotenoids increased Vitamin C and oxidative damage increased within the first few months and declined by the sixth month. Antioxidant levels were associated with side effects of the treatment; antioxidant capacity decreased throughout the course of the study Children with higher concentrations of vitamins A, E and total carotenoids experienced fewer poor outcomes (such as infections and toxicity) Based on the findings, researchers emphasized the importance of eating more fruits and vegetables -- which may provide a more balanced mix of antioxidants -- in addition to working with a nutritionist to improve the child's diet.Forbes.com December 27, 2004. Cancerpage.com December 27, 2004Dr. Mercola's Comment:It is no surprise that kids can better withstand the toll of chemotherapy by eating a diet full of antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables. However, one needs to be VERY careful about using any product, even natural ones, as the ONLY approach to treating a complex illness like cancer, as it is likely to be counterproductive. For this reason, I have pulled together a list of alternatives to fight cancer.Healthy Alternatives to Fight Cancer1. Avoid sugar, as it is the primary fuel for most cancers.Eating too much sugar and too many grains -- which are converted to sugar in the body -- will cause your blood sugar levels to rise. If your blood sugar levels remain elevated, even mildly, over a period of time, your risk of developing cancer increases.Since I am fully aware that many people struggle with this sugar/grain restriction, I highly recommend using the energy psychology tool Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) to successfully treat stresses, including food cravings such as those related to sugar and grains. 2. Optimize your vitamin D levels, as it is probably the single most important vitamin in preventing and treating cancers. The safest way to maintain healthy vitamin D levels is through sun exposure, but many of us are not able to do that in the winter, and some of us also stay indoors in the summer. For those that don't obtain enough sun exposure, taking a high-quality cod liver oil is a reasonable alternative. Taking a high-quality cod liver oil is more important than any supplement you can take because it is not a supplement at all -- it is an essential food... NOTE: It important to have your vitamin D levels checked, as it is possible to overdose on vitamin D. Sunlight, which causes us to produce vitamin D, can also help lower the risk of many cancers. Sunlight might actually be helpful in treating cancers directly through some, as yet, unidentified mechanism. One of my favorite books from last year, The Healing Sun Tom place link, provides some further details about this approach.3. Make sure you exercise, as this will help lower your insulin levels.There is no shortage of literature documenting the major benefits exercise has in lowering the risk of cancer and improving cancer once it is diagnosed. One of the major ways exercise works is by reducing insulin levels. It is quite clear that elevated insulin levels are associated with an increased risk of cancer.When using exercise as a drug it will be important to have a goal of at least one hour per day, every day if you have high insulin levels or signs of them, such as:High blood pressure High cholesterol Overweight Diabetes Obviously, depending on one's current condition, one needs to work slowly up to this level. My experience is that weight-bearing exercises, such as walking, jogging, running and elliptical machines, are better than cycling and swimming. If you are already in shape then you can limit your workouts to 45 minutes three or four times per week. However, if you are already in shape; then it is likely you won't have cancer, as many studies show that people who exercise have far less cancer rates...Dr. Joseph Mercolahttp://www.mercola.com/2005/jan/12/antioxidant_leukemia.htm...perhaps even my Granny knew that...iko
Also, do you think a child's level of vitamins A and D would affect the tendency to develop leukemia? If so, would children living in areas where deficiency in these nutrients are common might have a higher incidence of developing the disease?Getting back onto the subject of treatment, what other nutritional factors do you think would work along with cod liver oil to overcome the negative effects of treatment?Zoey
Iko, Go here for some history of how cod liver oil has been used in medicine for the last 150 years.Zoeyhttp://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/kings/gadus_oleu.html
Hi Paul,I am afraid that Zoey had a typical topic-who-nobody-caresof annihilating crisis a while ago!She'll make it resuscitate, I hope!Naughty Zoey ikod
Quote from: iko on 09/04/2007 09:51:05Hi Paul,I am afraid that Zoey had a typical topic-who-nobody-cares-of annihilating crisis a while ago!She'll make it resuscitate, I hope!Naughty Zoey ikodah, that explains it. the topic was still rather interesting though. any way sorry for the little hijack, Iko.
Hi Paul,I am afraid that Zoey had a typical topic-who-nobody-cares-of annihilating crisis a while ago!She'll make it resuscitate, I hope!Naughty Zoey ikod
Carnosic acid http://www.axxora.com/files/formula/270-264.gifhttp://www.gardenguides.com/seedcatalog/packets/rosemary.jpghttp://www.mdidea.com/products/herbextract/rosemary/rosemary_extract_carnosic_acid01Compress.jpgCooperative antitumor effects of vitamin D3 derivativesand rosemary preparations in a mouse model of myeloid leukemia.Sharabani H, Izumchenko E, Wang Q, Kreinin R, Steiner M, Barvish Z, Kafka M, Sharoni Y, Levy J, Uskokovic M, Studzinski GP, Danilenko M.Department of Clinical Biochemistry, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer-Sheva, Israel.1alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (1,25D(3)) is a powerful differentiation agent, which has potential for treatment of myeloid leukemias and other types of cancer, but the calcemia produced by pharmacologically active doses precludes the use of this agent in the clinic. We have shown that carnosic acid, the major rosemary polyphenol, enhances the differentiating and antiproliferative effects of low concentrations of 1,25D(3) in human myeloid leukemia cell lines (HL60, U937). Here we translated these findings to in vivo conditions using a syngeneic mouse leukemia tumor model. To this end, we first demonstrated that as in HL60 cells, differentiation of WEHI-3B D(-) murine myelomonocytic leukemia cells induced by 1 nM 1,25D(3) or its low-calcemic analog, 1,25-dihydroxy-16-ene-5,6-trans-cholecalciferol (Ro25-4020), can be synergistically potentiated by carnosic acid (10 microM) or the carnosic acid-rich ethanolic extract of rosemary leaves. This effect was accompanied by cell cycle arrest in G0 + G1 phase and a marked inhibition of cell growth. In the in vivo studies, i.p. injections of 2 microg Ro25-4020 in Balb/c mice bearing WEHI-3B D(-) tumors produced a significant delay in tumor appearance and reduction in tumor size, without significant toxicity. Another analog, 1,25-dihydroxy-16,23Z-diene-20-epi-26,27-hexafluoro-19-nor-cholecalciferol (Ro26-3884) administered at the same dose was less effective than Ro25-4020 and profoundly toxic. Importantly, combined treatment with 1% dry rosemary extract (mixed with food) and 1 microg Ro25-4020 resulted in a strong cooperative antitumor effect, without inducing hypercalcemia. These results indicate for the first time that a plant polyphenolic preparation and a vitamin D derivative can cooperate not only in inducing leukemia cell differentiation in vitro, but also in the antileukemic activity in vivo. These data may suggest novel protocols for chemoprevention or differentiation therapy of myeloid leukemia. Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc. Int J Cancer. 2006 Jun 15;118(12):3012-21.
Why did my "super baby" who was breastfed for 12-months and only receive the best and most natural nutrition available is fighting such a nasty disease? Although my initial reaction was to give up the CLO, acai (Brazilian berry loaded with antioxidants), organics, and everything else I was raised on, I couldn't! -----------------------------------You are raising important questions. So how do we start with finding answers? One thing comes to mind. When gathering information on vitamin D deficiency and seizures in children, I read that breast milk does not contain sufficient amounts to meet the needs for infants.:"PEDIATRICS Vol. 111 No. 4 April 2003, pp. 908-910--------------------------------------------------------------------------------CLINICAL REPORT Prevention of Rickets and Vitamin D Deficiency: New Guidelines for Vitamin D Intake Lawrence M. Gartner, MD, Frank R. Greer, MD, Section on Breastfeeding and Committee on Nutrition ABSTRACTRickets in infants attributable to inadequate vitamin D intake and decreased exposure to sunlight continues to be reported in the United States. It is recommended that all infants, including those who are exclusively breastfed, have a minimum intake of 200 IU of vitamin D per day beginning during the first 2 months of life. In addition, it is recommended that an intake of 200 IU of vitamin D per day be continued throughout childhood and adolescence, because adequate sunlight exposure is not easily determined for a given individual. These new vitamin D intake guidelines for healthy infants and children are based on the recommendations of the National Academy of Sciences."http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;111/4/908 The focus here is on rickets prevention and it appears there is no consideration in this and similar studies to the effects of Vitamin D deficiency on suseptibility to diseases such as cancer. Also, the other major vitamin in CLO, vitamin A, can also be in short supply in breast milk. Just to make this more complex, zinc deficiency via breast feeding may also pose a problem with development and resistence to disease. "European Journal of Clinical Nutrition:December 1998, Volume 52, Number 12, Pages 884-890Moderate zinc and vitamin A deficiency in breast milk of mothers from East-Jakarta...Conclusions: Multi-micronutrient intervention should be considered to provide a sufficient supply of zinc and vitamin A for growth of exclusively breast-fed infants"http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v52/n12/abs/1600660a.htmlSome earlier posts in this discussion have information on vitamin A and zinc deficiencies and how this may affect suseptibility to developing leukemia as well. I'm glad you had a good day and hope you will be having many of them as you see your son recover.
Now that you put your foot in the door, Paul, you may want to do some of the research for this topic too.
Too many nutrients have been proposed in the last few years, but their efficacy seems still unsubstantiated in most of the cases, and practical demonstrations too vague or totally absent.It is NOT the purpose of this topic.We have to stick to 'cod' and a vague 1988 article, especially now that dqfry joined us.She gave us in a few words a clear and dramatic picture of the limits of this issue.Cod liver oil used during standard treatment of leukemia, probably could just 'help' leukemic patients, perhaps counteracting a vitamin D3 deficiency that still has to be confirmed.This positive effect has to be demonstrated in practice, and only for lack of toxicity and costs this use could be recommended before improbable officially conducted clinical trials.We do not have detailed data from the Shanghai report as I told you: there were 'buried' in 5" diskettes so it is impossible to find out whether the 'protective' effect had been found lower or what in toddlers compared to growning-up 8-12yrs children (this was one of my questions to Dr. Shu in 1999).iko 09/04/2007
Should we be looking at population studies and comparing rates of recovery?