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What we need is a model, any model, that can show a useful cause-and-effect role for consciousness in a system where the existence of that consciousness can also be recognised by the system. We don't have one of those at all at the moment and trying to shut people's minds down is not at all helpful.
So I repeat: "Where are the observations that suggest consciousness originates elsewhere?"Enough said!
It isn't all about observations.
It's about the lack of room for consciousness to exist in the brain.
OK, we now have three very intelligent people discussing how to measure something. Would any of you care to define what it is you are trying to measure? A functional definition will suffice for a start, as in "consciousness is that which....."
that which: "establishes the communion between the self to it's environment."
If your scientific model has no room for a soul of this kind in the brain, then consciousness can only occur if it is located somewhere outside the brain.
That is why it seems so rational to look for consciousness outside of the brain, but it is also still rational to look for it inside the brain, just so long as you're prepared to look for something that's actually capable of being tortured.
...are you asserting that Ms X did not have a soul?
I never said there was no room inside the brain for what you term as the soul. So that leaves us with the question I already asked you: "if not in the brain, where would you suggest we find this so-called "soul"?
I do not agree that it is rational to find consciousness outside of the brain. But as you have conceded, "it is also still rational to look for it inside the brain".
This has been my issue with this whole argument from the outset. You seemed to insinuate that there wasn't room in the brain for the fullness of consciousness.
And one or two others here have tried to imply that this consciousness lives on even when the physical brain has died. And the point about Zombies gives no support for that notion either, because being a Zombie doesn't eliminate the brain which is still alive even though it's in a Zombie's head.
And don't start bringing up near death experiences as evidence for the survival of the consciousness. They call it NEAR death for a good reason.
I assumed that you'd read the early pages of the Don's thread and would have understood my position. I didn't want to attack your position but merely defend the idea of looking for consciousness outside of the brain - I suspect that this universe is virtual and that it is likely to be incapable of hosting sentience as a result.
I must apologize for assuming too much, and for not giving enough time and effort to read that thread from start to finish. But in my own defense, it became very evident from reading several of Don's posts that most of them were only boring repetitions of his previous posts. So in my laziness and boredom I really didn't care about wasting time reading any more of his crap than I had to.
I will confess after reading your clarifications on the subject that I find much more agreement with you than I do with Don.
Nevertheless, the one issue I still disagree with you on is a viable consciousness outside the brain. I am willing to overlook that and submit that we can agree to disagree in a friendly manner.
However, finding any sort of cordial arrangement with Don has become impossible. His insults, calling some of us swine and monkeys has him looking and sounding like a simple brat. I simply have no use for that sort of attitude, and his unwillingness to calmly discuss, he only wants to argue his points as if nobody else is smart enough to understand his brilliance. Nothing but a waste!