Near Death Experiences

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Offline roarer

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Near Death Experiences
« on: 13/08/2006 09:26:00 »
I am submitting this post on this forum because recently here on Australian TV a program was shown on this subject and   where it was shown that scientific experiments are being carried out in Canada and perhaps other places regarding this  what may be described as a natural  phenomenon and which occurs  initially within the brain upon the cessation of life. A further conclusion is that the brain is reacting naturally in a way as to make dying (for the human being as tranquil and as unstressful as possible). Thereafter the scientific conclusion continues....once death is established..there is a nothingness...a void.
There is one qualification however where some who had NDE experiences were of the "demonic" nature which can be described as perhaps a vision of hell. However the majority experienced "tranquil" NDE's. My theory (ah yes and yet another) is that the people who experience demonic NDE's are being treated (not unlike others who experience "tranquil" NDE's) by drugs by medical staff (for the purpose of bringing them back to life) and that these particular people are effected by these drugs (due to some allergy to them which is medically unkown) and where it seriously and psychologically distorts this natural phenomenon which prevents them from experiencing a "tranquil" NDE and instead they experience some sort of "psychidelic" effect.
These experiments do raise some  questions rather than answer them.
As the whole world revolves around logical argument...if death results in nothingness and voidness what would be the point of nature in making the initial  effort in embellishing the "road to death" when the outcome is nothingness anyway? Alternatively...why not a sudden void......sudden nothingness?
On the evidence we have presently therefore, is that the natural processes of embellishing death is for the purpose of a....void outcome.......a pointless exercise! My conclusion is that nature does not act in a pointless fashion.
It must follow therefore that these scientific experiments are not proving or disproving an "afterlife" They are merely reinforcing, by circumstantial evidence and logic....that there may be an "afterlife"
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #1 on: 13/08/2006 11:51:48 »
These experiments probably neither prove nor disprove anything, but neither do I believe that your interpretation is correct.

The human body is a complex system, and it does not have an 'off' switch – death does not come about because all of a sudden someone pulls the power cable for the human body, it comes about because the human body and mind are overwhelmed and bit by bit begin to fail.  At a cellular level, and to a substantial degree at the organ level, there is a clear and consistent progression of the sequences in which this failure occurs.  Clearly, some of the simpler systems will survive longer, and the more complex systems will fail sooner.  Also, the body will try and put greater efforts to protect some of the core systems than some of the peripheral systems.

The pain system clearly is there as an early warning of danger in order to allow the body to respond to that danger.  When the body is already severely damaged, is is a little too late for early warning systems to be of use.  The body at that time does not need early warning, it needs damage control and repair systems to be the priority.  Ultimately, if that damage control and repair fails, then there is no hope left, but long before that happens, the early warning systems start to become redundant (particularly since many of the escape systems that they would have triggered are already so compromised that the body no longer has any means of responding to that warning anyway).



George

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #2 on: 13/08/2006 20:49:55 »
where do you sign up for the near death experimentation? Im looking for some extra cash.

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #3 on: 17/08/2006 04:29:13 »
yes I wholly agree Another_Someone that the body does "progressively" (for want of a better word) die....but there remains valid questions to this...and one is "Why does nature (as this seems to be a natural phenomenon) take the trouble to  warn us in anticipation (of this "progressive death") by way of an NDE (as you are implying that this is that warning) when the outcome is just voidness ? For example...why not the alternative......."a progressive death"...but in the absence of any anticipatory warning.
This is like someone who jumps off a very high bridge in order to commit suicide into a river and you come along in a helicopter beside him (whilst he is on the way down) and telling him..."listen buddy you are going to die when you hit that river" I think you get the gist.
 

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #4 on: 14/09/2006 08:55:26 »
Interesting topic! I am going to listen in if you all don't mind!!

Karen

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #5 on: 17/09/2006 02:04:00 »
This forum requires an immense amount of analytical thinking by the contributors in order to credibly commence a, or respond to,topics. Now that Karen the moderator has nudged it along...I remain unresponded to it unless my last post is challenged. And this is where it gets hard....and that analytical thinking comes in. This is the beauty of a forum like this.....one mind is never enough!! It takes many minds...but there must be challenges otherwise that advantage is lost.
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #6 on: 17/09/2006 02:18:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

yes I wholly agree Another_Someone that the body does "progressively" (for want of a better word) die....but there remains valid questions to this...and one is "Why does nature (as this seems to be a natural phenomenon) take the trouble to  warn us in anticipation (of this "progressive death") by way of an NDE (as you are implying that this is that warning) when the outcome is just voidness ? For example...why not the alternative......."a progressive death"...but in the absence of any anticipatory warning.
This is like someone who jumps off a very high bridge in order to commit suicide into a river and you come along in a helicopter beside him (whilst he is on the way down) and telling him..."listen buddy you are going to die when you hit that river" I think you get the gist.



I don't think I was saying that an NDE is a warning, but rather that it is a failure to warn.

The warning systems are the pain that you feel when you get a serious trauma.  What I was saying is not like a helicopter trying to shout to you that you are about to die, but rather it is like the man standing beside you on the bridge telling you that you are going to die if you jump off the bridge, but after you jump, the sound of that man becomes fainter and fainter until you fail to hear him at all.



George

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #7 on: 17/09/2006 08:29:42 »
Hi George so good to see you back!! I was headed to bed when I thought I should stop and see where this topic has led...


 So I thought I would say; I have had 3 near death experiences 4 if you want to include incident drowning as a child.. at which time I felt the same thing although I don't believe my heart stopped on the latter water experience! I only recall bits and peices of what I felt during the time I was gone if you will from my body! I can only tell you I came away with a profound knowledge of God or spirituality or whatever you choose to use for your own expression of God. I was 6 months old the first experience. Within a short time, 24 hours or more time and shifts of sugical staff I was pronounced dead three times. I won't go into details, you can look up in previous posts if you would like to read more, but I find this topic interesting as I don't find it  a lesson or warning as there was no fear, but an oportunitiy to learn more and grow.. in the knowledge that there is so much more.I had really not thought about warning systems until last october and again a couple weeks ago.. Your body has a great system of nerves and capacity to feel and respond to sickness and changes inside you, which act like an indicator of atmosheric readings for you to acknowledge what your internal organs are telling you and how your body is working...That is if you so choose to listen to your body! A couple weeks ago I was very stressed and not doing well mentally due to such stress. In my absent minded state I went many days forgetting to take my meds... I have a heart problem a murmur left from my congenital heart problems.. two rounds of open heart surgery! So needless to say I had developed an infection without knowing after a recent surgery, and had  alot of water build up around my heart.. I noticed some weird things and took myself to the doctor.. He was very angry with me and immediately started a series of antibiotics and water pills and moitored me closely.. Greatfully I had a friend who insisted that I get checked, I listened for the first time in my life  and if I hadn't I wouldn't be here today! I am still whipped tired as messing with the ticker seems to wear your tail feathers out! I thought I was catching a bug!! Anyway my body was slapping me in the face with warnings, but I was not taking them seriously! Pain is serious warning to get help! THats all beside the point I have a definite opinion for myself and what I KNOW to be my own self absolute truth in this area... But I will say science should go hand in hand with spirtuality as we have these incrdeible bodies that are capable of such understanding and knowledge..that I believe we were meant to have knowledge and use it to help ourselves and others. We need to listen learn and explore untill we find the anwers what ever they may be for ourselves, My answer may not be yours, but for myself it is my absolute truth. I am not a debaiter, but I do like to hear all the sides.. and find life facinating to behold!! Please do go on as I find both sides very intrigueing! I'll not take sides LOL!!


Karen

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #8 on: 17/09/2006 09:26:42 »
Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #9 on: 18/09/2006 03:46:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death



The fact that it is referred to as a Near Death Experience might just hint at the fact that an NDE is not actually during death, but close to death.

Semantics aside, yes I did understand what your analogy meant, and that the NDE was the process of falling.

What I was saying was that the NDE was in effect a loss of reality, a loss of contact with the guy who is telling you are in danger.  The NDE is not a danger signal, it is the loss of danger signals.



George

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #10 on: 18/09/2006 04:35:21 »
Nice  points George!

Karen

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #11 on: 17/09/2006 02:04:00 »
This forum requires an immense amount of analytical thinking by the contributors in order to credibly commence a, or respond to,topics. Now that Karen the moderator has nudged it along...I remain unresponded to it unless my last post is challenged. And this is where it gets hard....and that analytical thinking comes in. This is the beauty of a forum like this.....one mind is never enough!! It takes many minds...but there must be challenges otherwise that advantage is lost.
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2006 02:18:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

yes I wholly agree Another_Someone that the body does "progressively" (for want of a better word) die....but there remains valid questions to this...and one is "Why does nature (as this seems to be a natural phenomenon) take the trouble to  warn us in anticipation (of this "progressive death") by way of an NDE (as you are implying that this is that warning) when the outcome is just voidness ? For example...why not the alternative......."a progressive death"...but in the absence of any anticipatory warning.
This is like someone who jumps off a very high bridge in order to commit suicide into a river and you come along in a helicopter beside him (whilst he is on the way down) and telling him..."listen buddy you are going to die when you hit that river" I think you get the gist.



I don't think I was saying that an NDE is a warning, but rather that it is a failure to warn.

The warning systems are the pain that you feel when you get a serious trauma.  What I was saying is not like a helicopter trying to shout to you that you are about to die, but rather it is like the man standing beside you on the bridge telling you that you are going to die if you jump off the bridge, but after you jump, the sound of that man becomes fainter and fainter until you fail to hear him at all.



George

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #13 on: 17/09/2006 09:26:42 »
Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #14 on: 18/09/2006 03:46:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death



The fact that it is referred to as a Near Death Experience might just hint at the fact that an NDE is not actually during death, but close to death.

Semantics aside, yes I did understand what your analogy meant, and that the NDE was the process of falling.

What I was saying was that the NDE was in effect a loss of reality, a loss of contact with the guy who is telling you are in danger.  The NDE is not a danger signal, it is the loss of danger signals.



George

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #15 on: 18/09/2006 04:35:21 »
Nice  points George!

Karen

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #16 on: 19/09/2006 04:21:05 »
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).
 I am not religious..I was brought up a Catholic..but I have not been to any religious functions for years...some 30 years or more...I do not believe in ANY religion whatsoever. I think that they actually DIVIDE rather than unite their populations. On top of that nature has equipped the human with a conscience and the capability to know right from wrong...and that is all that is required. Instructions from religions regarding rights and wrongs etc are in my view superfluous.In addition as the instructions are given my human beings they are open to misrepresentation and/or misinterpretation...and may be wholly incorrect.
I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.
 

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #17 on: 19/09/2006 04:54:59 »
It is certainly a glance into that! I agree on that point from my experiences!!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #18 on: 20/09/2006 01:35:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death



Yes.

quote:

 for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).



No – I am not suggesting any particular 'purpose' – merely an absence of any contrary purpose (i.e. the body is so far damaged that there is no longer any point in retaining the danger signals, and in any case, the lines of communications themselves are already severely damaged – thus the calming effect is an incidental by-product rather than a deliberate purpose).

quote:

I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.



It is a common view by some people on the process.

I do not share your view, but neither will I attempt to dissuade you from the view.

What I was trying to show was the physical processes that lead to an NDE experience  - if you also believe there is a parallel spiritual process that is separate from the physical, I will leave that up to you.



George

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #19 on: 20/09/2006 02:14:57 »
AS....I believe that the following is the crux of your disagreement with me:
I believe that nature and all within it....is in existance for a PURPOSE. When I say nature I do NOT only mean..the sun...the moon...stars..the sea.....but all flora and fauna and the way the human being THINKS and ACTS FREELY but within the context of his/her EMOTIONS which is an extremely important facet of nature which is instilled into the human and within this context one must include the NDE. So nature INCLUDES everything which is in EXISTANCE on this planet. When you said that the NDE is not there for any particular purpose.....I wholly disagree. There is a purpose.....all we have to do is to find it
 

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #20 on: 20/09/2006 11:11:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
When you said that the NDE is not there for any particular purpose.....I wholly disagree. There is a purpose.....all we have to do is to find it



OK, I have thought about this a bit more, and there is at least one circumstance where I can think this might have a benefit, not to the individual, but to the collective species or herd.

If an individual animal is in danger, particularly if it is a young animal in the proximity of its mother, then it will let out a cry for help so that its mother may come to its assistance.  Once the young animal is already so damaged that there is little hope of its mother being able to afford it help, it makes sense to cease the alarm calls, since it is unlikely that its mother can any longer save its life, but the continued alarm calls may cause the mother to unnecessarily endanger its own life.

In some societies, such as human society, there is an even wider network of mutual protection, and thus the calming effect of the NDE may well be a way for the dying person to accept their own death, and to cease asking for help from others to afford it protection, and thus cease asking others to continue to endanger their own lives in order to afford that futile attempt to save its life.

And just thinking a little more along these lines, I was wondering if maybe this had some similarity to the processes involved in PTSD and depression – except that in these cases, there is no immediate threat to life, and the process kicks in too early, but the victim nonetheless  feels they are beyond help and ceases to help themselves, or ask for help from others.  In the case of PTSD, some people do respond by developing a similar sense of separation from the traumatic situation (even if the trauma is more psychological than physical) that an NDE victim feels, as if looking at the situation from the outside, and thus seeing the situation as if it was happening to someone else.



George
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 11:21:25 by another_someone »

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #21 on: 20/09/2006 12:25:03 »
I come to this from a different point of view.  I do not believe in a God who acts and controls the universe outside of the laws of physics in any way and I do not believe in any form of afterlife because it is totally illogical and pointless. Death is an essential part of life and evolution. Without death and replacement change is impossible and change is essential for survival in a changing environment.  However I do believe in Religion as an essential part of making good life decisions and am a regular churchgoer begause the symbology of an all seeing all knowing God is in my mind one of the best and simplest models for a succesful collective life plan.

I am lucky in that I have not yet had any near death experiences myself but have occasionslly hurt mydelf quite badly and note when this happens, there is little or no initial pain and the body shuts down various systems for a while.  The pain only appears later to stop you moving things while the healing process is taking place.  My guess is that near death experiences are related to this process of anesthesia.  A bit like being put under for an operation (although this tends to happen reather quickly)  except that you just don't wake up.

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« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 12:30:38 by Soul Surfer »
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #22 on: 19/09/2006 04:21:05 »
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).
 I am not religious..I was brought up a Catholic..but I have not been to any religious functions for years...some 30 years or more...I do not believe in ANY religion whatsoever. I think that they actually DIVIDE rather than unite their populations. On top of that nature has equipped the human with a conscience and the capability to know right from wrong...and that is all that is required. Instructions from religions regarding rights and wrongs etc are in my view superfluous.In addition as the instructions are given my human beings they are open to misrepresentation and/or misinterpretation...and may be wholly incorrect.
I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.
 

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #23 on: 19/09/2006 04:54:59 »
It is certainly a glance into that! I agree on that point from my experiences!!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #24 on: 20/09/2006 01:35:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death



Yes.

quote:

 for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).



No – I am not suggesting any particular 'purpose' – merely an absence of any contrary purpose (i.e. the body is so far damaged that there is no longer any point in retaining the danger signals, and in any case, the lines of communications themselves are already severely damaged – thus the calming effect is an incidental by-product rather than a deliberate purpose).

quote:

I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.



It is a common view by some people on the process.

I do not share your view, but neither will I attempt to dissuade you from the view.

What I was trying to show was the physical processes that lead to an NDE experience  - if you also believe there is a parallel spiritual process that is separate from the physical, I will leave that up to you.



George

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #25 on: 20/09/2006 02:14:57 »
AS....I believe that the following is the crux of your disagreement with me:
I believe that nature and all within it....is in existance for a PURPOSE. When I say nature I do NOT only mean..the sun...the moon...stars..the sea.....but all flora and fauna and the way the human being THINKS and ACTS FREELY but within the context of his/her EMOTIONS which is an extremely important facet of nature which is instilled into the human and within this context one must include the NDE. So nature INCLUDES everything which is in EXISTANCE on this planet. When you said that the NDE is not there for any particular purpose.....I wholly disagree. There is a purpose.....all we have to do is to find it
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #26 on: 20/09/2006 11:11:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
When you said that the NDE is not there for any particular purpose.....I wholly disagree. There is a purpose.....all we have to do is to find it



OK, I have thought about this a bit more, and there is at least one circumstance where I can think this might have a benefit, not to the individual, but to the collective species or herd.

If an individual animal is in danger, particularly if it is a young animal in the proximity of its mother, then it will let out a cry for help so that its mother may come to its assistance.  Once the young animal is already so damaged that there is little hope of its mother being able to afford it help, it makes sense to cease the alarm calls, since it is unlikely that its mother can any longer save its life, but the continued alarm calls may cause the mother to unnecessarily endanger its own life.

In some societies, such as human society, there is an even wider network of mutual protection, and thus the calming effect of the NDE may well be a way for the dying person to accept their own death, and to cease asking for help from others to afford it protection, and thus cease asking others to continue to endanger their own lives in order to afford that futile attempt to save its life.

And just thinking a little more along these lines, I was wondering if maybe this had some similarity to the processes involved in PTSD and depression – except that in these cases, there is no immediate threat to life, and the process kicks in too early, but the victim nonetheless  feels they are beyond help and ceases to help themselves, or ask for help from others.  In the case of PTSD, some people do respond by developing a similar sense of separation from the traumatic situation (even if the trauma is more psychological than physical) that an NDE victim feels, as if looking at the situation from the outside, and thus seeing the situation as if it was happening to someone else.



George
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 11:21:25 by another_someone »

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #27 on: 20/09/2006 12:25:03 »
I come to this from a different point of view.  I do not believe in a God who acts and controls the universe outside of the laws of physics in any way and I do not believe in any form of afterlife because it is totally illogical and pointless. Death is an essential part of life and evolution. Without death and replacement change is impossible and change is essential for survival in a changing environment.  However I do believe in Religion as an essential part of making good life decisions and am a regular churchgoer begause the symbology of an all seeing all knowing God is in my mind one of the best and simplest models for a succesful collective life plan.

I am lucky in that I have not yet had any near death experiences myself but have occasionslly hurt mydelf quite badly and note when this happens, there is little or no initial pain and the body shuts down various systems for a while.  The pain only appears later to stop you moving things while the healing process is taking place.  My guess is that near death experiences are related to this process of anesthesia.  A bit like being put under for an operation (although this tends to happen reather quickly)  except that you just don't wake up.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 12:30:38 by Soul Surfer »
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #28 on: 21/09/2006 05:08:45 »
Heaven and hell must exist, because I'm posting from hell right now (detroit, michigan)
 

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Offline gecko

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #29 on: 22/09/2006 03:27:11 »
the "near death experience" experience has been felt by pilots exposed to incredible G-forces. they usually black out or "gray" out, and have "spiritual" experiences, even though they arent in particular danger of dying.

logic wins again!
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #30 on: 22/09/2006 04:07:44 »
LOL to Bostjan.


Can I throw in a couple of pennies now ?

If someone is dieing from an illness or from natural causes, then at some stage unconsciousness prevails before the body totally shuts down.
Keeping conscious expels a lot of energy and so consciousness goes bye-bye as the body weakens and continues to turn off.

Seems like a perfectly viable progression of events to me.

I tell you, I would much rather prefer to lose consciousness before dieing than be conscious while the body systematically turns off.

As far as NDE's...well...loss of oxygen just makes your mind drunk and you just wither away into a dream land.....Those who recover, just regain their consciousness like waking up !

In MY opinion.

 



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Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #31 on: 24/09/2006 03:43:01 »
You know this is the first forum..and I mean the FIRST forum (and I have been on many) that I find really challenging. You people are good.....sorry...excellent in your analyses. The moderator...Another_Someone..you may have hit the nail of the NDE on the head. I have always believed that the NDE is a "glance" in the afterlife as I believe in it...however now I am not so sure after Another Someone afforded us his/her theory of the purpose of that NDE. And it does sound so plausable as I believe nature is there NOT to GUARANTEE the survival of the human (it cannot do that).. but to.MAXIMISE the chances of that survival. And it does this by a complex system of incentives as distinct from that of forcing the human to enact certain things or in a certain way. And the theory that the NDE is there to quote "safeguard the human species"  wholly satisfies this theory.
 

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #32 on: 25/09/2006 01:02:12 »
This is a great site and the people are great! we hope you stay and explore further!

Karen

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Offline ScouseLad

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #33 on: 25/09/2006 10:53:02 »
I don't know if I'm gona get banned for this, but roarer u chat SHIZZZZZZZZ m8.

religion has nothing to do wiv any of it, u die and then ur gone FULL STOP . but b4 u get to the death part u have ure NDE. so da NDE doesnt have anythin 2 do wiv goin anywhere else at all, cos your souls still inside ure body, get me?. and your making it like a argument more than what you think on the subject, youre just a bored gobshiAHEM.

Off tha topic now once youve properley crossed over into wonderland then your dead, and can't be brought back, I think anyway. No-one will never know what happens after you die, because the people who do know this are dead. So really its not even worth thinkin about that untill we meet our makers..an speaking of religion agen I tell u what im goin 2 smash god (if he does exist) in the face for making the world such a dump :)
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #34 on: 25/09/2006 12:27:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by ScouseLad
I don't know if I'm gona get banned for this, but roarer u chat SHIZZZZZZZZ m8.



You will not get banned - people have done worse, even if it does not reflect well on them.

quote:

religion has nothing to do wiv any of it, u die and then ur gone FULL STOP . but b4 u get to the death part u have ure NDE. so da NDE doesnt have anythin 2 do wiv goin anywhere else at all, cos your souls still inside ure body, get me?. and your making it like a argument more than what you think on the subject, youre just a bored gobshiAHEM.

Off tha topic now once youve properley crossed over into wonderland then your dead, and can't be brought back, I think anyway. No-one will never know what happens after you die, because the people who do know this are dead. So really its not even worth thinkin about that untill we meet our makers..an speaking of religion agen I tell u what im goin 2 smash god (if he does exist) in the face for making the world such a dump :)



The point is that the above is as much as statement of belief as any contrary view.  What we were trying to do was put some rationality behind that belief, and not merely to state is as a belief.

Simply say 'this is how it is' is not a rational position.  Saying this is why it is so becomes a rational position.  It is true that no position can be absent of axioms, but at least one can seek to minimise those axioms, and from those minimum axioms to build a rational infrastructure.



George

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Offline tiorama

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #35 on: 25/09/2006 13:50:10 »
I am writing a feature about near death experiences for a women's consumer magazine. If anyone on here has had an NDE that they would be willing to discuss for the magazine please email me on dawn@tonicmagazine.co.uk.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #36 on: 27/09/2006 10:47:58 »
I have another theory fellas...so hear me out. What IF....what IF....there is really an afterlife...a life in "soul" mode where you can travel to anywhere in milliseconds....no pain exists...no mortgage payments exist..you never become thirsty..you never become hungry. you have no need for money.... no diseases exist.....in short you are in eternal blissful life...a life which is the diametric opposite to this life in "body" mode..where there is pain..where diseases exists....etc etc.
Now what IF....nature...aha..there is that again....AT ALL COSTS and deliberately prevents you the human from learning about this life. What if this is "nature's work"...that we either are prevented from learning about this other life.....or that we plainly disbelieve it?
And why would nature deliberately do this?
I shall simply ask this. What would occur should it be PROVEN that there is a another life after death in soul mode (as described above)
Well..what may occur is that perhaps many millions..if not billions of people...in an act of desperation shall commit SUICIDE...in order to have a better life..in the afterlife. This goes against nature's purpose..that is to MAXIMISE the chances of the human being's survival on this planet.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #37 on: 29/09/2006 05:12:29 »
I have another theory which relates to this topic.
What if....an afterlife really exists....in a "soul mode" where travelling takes milliseconds to accomplish...where there is the non-existance of pain...hunger...thirst..disease...cruelity....mortgage payments.....and no need for any financial resources whatsover to survive.....in short a life of unmitigated bliss as it is unknown to us in "body mode" and  as espoused by the various religions ?
And...what if this..shall we call it..an extraordinary "afterlife"? can be CONCLUSIVELY AND SCIENTIFICALLY proven..what would occur?
Well under these circumstances I would estimate that many millions...perhaps billions would want to EXPERIENCE such a life (of bliss)  (as compared to certain desperate and dire situations which the human species experience from time to time in "body mode"). And there is only one way to do so....and that would be via death....perhaps by suicide.
As nature's purpose is to maximise the chances of survival of the human species and in view of that prospect of death by suicide..it would be in the human species' interests in order to maximise that chance of survival for it to remain permanently ignorant and be disbelieving of that "afterlife" In effect that doubt is preventing the extinction of the human species.
Perhaps this continuing doubt  where this 'afterlife" shall NEVER be conclusively proven is part of the natural processes for the purpose as stated above.
Would nature be ingenious like no other in this case?

P.S. I think that there is a misconception on this forum that I am religious or that I connect religion with this topic. This is wholly incorrect.
I was brought up a Catholic however I am not religious nor do I believe in ANY religion. I do believe however in that suprnatural being we deem as God...who I think is abstract but whose tangible"'weapon" is what we call.....nature.

 

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #38 on: 29/09/2006 05:39:32 »
I like your opinion and have a great deal of respect for it.. I think we as humans have a long long way to go before we are able to fully comprehend all that our universe and bodies entail, but I too believe in a God.. I also believe that we control most of our own destiny to an extent and that we have been given the ability to use our brain in a way that was meant to guide us through knowledge, trial and error etc.

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #39 on: 29/09/2006 11:59:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

I have another theory fellas...so hear me out. What IF....what IF....there is really an afterlife...a life in "soul" mode where you can travel to anywhere in milliseconds....no pain exists...no mortgage payments exist..you never become thirsty..you never become hungry. you have no need for money.... no diseases exist.....in short you are in eternal blissful life...a life which is the diametric opposite to this life in "body" mode..where there is pain..where diseases exists....etc etc.
Now what IF....nature...aha..there is that again....AT ALL COSTS and deliberately prevents you the human from learning about this life. What if this is "nature's work"...that we either are prevented from learning about this other life.....or that we plainly disbelieve it?
And why would nature deliberately do this?
I shall simply ask this. What would occur should it be PROVEN that there is a another life after death in soul mode (as described above)
Well..what may occur is that perhaps many millions..if not billions of people...in an act of desperation shall commit SUICIDE...in order to have a better life..in the afterlife. This goes against nature's purpose..that is to MAXIMISE the chances of the human being's survival on this planet.


Some very big IFs.

Firstly, if nature prevents us from learning about it, then how can you prove is, or even say anything about it – it would be unnatural to do so.

Science is the art of explaining the observable.  If we speculate upon scenarios that by their nature are unobservable in any way, then we are left with an infinity of possibilities, and no way to discriminate between them.  It is certainly possible that any one of these unobservable scenarios may be the correct scenario, but how would we ever be capable of determining which one of these infinite scenarios is the correct one.  Our ability to discriminate between all the infinite possibilities must rely upon that which we can sense (i.e. that which allows us to learn about, and not which nature prevents us from learning about).

Secondly, I actually do not agree with you that if there was this supposed afterlife, everyone would commit suicide.

People choose to live for many reasons, and avoidance of pain and suffering is not in most cases the primary one.  Women are willing to give birth, despite that birth can be a very painful experience.  If avoidance of pain was their primary motive in life, why would they give birth?  Is not the one thing you have excluded in your picture of the afterlife the ability to give birth, to rear children?

Thirdly, if you think about the 'soul' as some part of us that lives on beyond the life of our body, then you also have to put some thought into how this soul would live within our body while we are alive?  How does the soul relate to our understanding of the mind and the brain?  How does the soul relate even to our notions of atomic physics, and its relationship to the human body (or even the soul of non-human entities – would they exist?)?  And finally, how does the human soul, which as I understand you is separate from the human body, relate to the ageing processes of the human body (I am not talking about the wrinkling of the skin, but rather the ageing process by which the mind of a baby changes to the mind of an adolescent, and later the mind of an ever more mature adult, and maybe ultimately leading to dementia – where is the soul in all of this)?



George

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #40 on: 29/09/2006 22:41:05 »
going strictly on science, this is very simple to explain.  your memories are stored in your brain.  your brain is made of material.  it is scientifiaclly held that memories are material.  anything your immaterial self would experience without the brain is not stored as memories in the brain.

with this in mind, it is easy to conclude that any scientific explanation of a near death experience must be a dream-like hallucination of the brain.

anything deduced from religious axia such as the existance of an eternal soul or as the existance of an afterlife may be impossible to argue, as the antecedent is stated in such a way that can neither be proven nor disproven
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #41 on: 30/09/2006 02:22:23 »
[Some very big IFs.

Firstly, if nature prevents us from learning about it, then how can you prove is, or even say anything about it – it would be unnatural to do so.

AS..this can be explained quite credibly. We are NOT supposed to know about that "afterlife". However since the early 70's when resuscitation techniques were improved in bringing people "back from the dead"..these NDE's were occuring in a major way. You see bringing people back from the dead is UNNATURAL in itself! When someone dies..nature dictates that s/he should REMAIN dead..not brought back to life
 

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Offline gecko

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #42 on: 30/09/2006 06:11:42 »
im so sick of this "nature dictates" garbage. humans ARE NATURE. any advances we make medically are not "unnatural". you say that bringing people back with resuccitation is unnatural; the logical extension of this is that all medical practice is "unnatural". in fact, having the chicken bone squeezed out of your throat is unnatural! if you choked on it, its NATURAL for you to die. cutting off part of your breast to keep cancer from spreading is unnatural: nature dictates humans should remain with their breasts throughout life.
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #43 on: 30/09/2006 19:32:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko
im so sick of this "nature dictates" garbage. humans ARE NATURE. any advances we make medically are not "unnatural". you say that bringing people back with resuccitation is unnatural; the logical extension of this is that all medical practice is "unnatural". in fact, having the chicken bone squeezed out of your throat is unnatural! if you choked on it, its NATURAL for you to die. cutting off part of your breast to keep cancer from spreading is unnatural: nature dictates humans should remain with their breasts throughout life.



I think that Leonard's (roarer) way of expressing himself is a little imprecise, but I think his intention can probably be better expressed by saying “what was within the realms of possibility until recent times.  I do agree that the fact that humans have extended what is possible does not make it unnatural for them to have done so.
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
AS..this can be explained quite credibly. We are NOT supposed to know about that "afterlife". However since the early 70's when resuscitation techniques were improved in bringing people "back from the dead"..these NDE's were occuring in a major way. You see bringing people back from the dead is UNNATURAL in itself! When someone dies..nature dictates that s/he should REMAIN dead..not brought back to life


I don't think that near death experiences are new.  It is certainly true that recent medical advances have allowed recovery from a far wider range of life threatening conditions, and so the number of people who have experienced NDE's has increased, but there are situations throughout time where people (and no doubt other animals) have survived extraordinary situations (e.g. remaining underwater for a matter of hours).

I have also suggested (as has been done by others) that much of what is involved in NDE's (i.e. the loss of pain, the sense of detachment from your environment) is similar in nature to the shock response people have in much lesser trauma.

It is also a contradiction to both call it a near death experience, and to talk about bringing people back from the dead (as if they were some sort of zombie, or Frankenstein's monster).

What we are doing is creating conditions where people can survive ever greater degrees of trauma.  This may colloquially be regarded by some as 'bringing them back from the dead', and while that may be a very dramatic way of phrasing it, it is not at all technically accurate; we cannot bring anyone back from the dead.

You have not yet explained what it is that is 'brought back from the dead'?  You have referred above to a "soul mode", but how does this “soul mode” relate to the living body?



George

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #44 on: 01/10/2006 01:19:03 »
Well AS..in a modern ER in any hospital and in any country...it is actually documented that numerous times per week....under emergency conditions...patients die and are brought back to life by modern resuscitation. What is brought back from the dead? The body is brought back from the dead!! Under these conditions.....the heart stops COMPLETELY....whereby the brain is being STARVED from oxygen.This is technically....DEATH!! The ER team have only a limited time to resuscitate the patient lest beyond a certain point...s/he cannot be brought back. As contrary to that as implied by a poster..I am not condemning modern medicine for going against nature....I am simply stating that nature...which permits the human species to live in liberty under a policy of "free will"....could not forsee and/or prevent (because of that policy) the capability of the human to IMPROVE resuscitation methods to a point whereby perhaps that "afterlife" (which nature itself perhaps prevents the human species from experiencing) can be "accessed". That is what I meant by  "unnatural"
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #45 on: 01/10/2006 07:10:15 »
If you define death as when the heart isn't beating, you are technically dead something like 80% of the time when you are at rest.  Although I think there were one or two cases of reported resuscitation after ceasation of brain function, but they could be in error or who knows.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #46 on: 01/10/2006 09:50:22 »
Well Bastjan..if we commence to split hairs as to when a person is REALLY and technically dead..we'll never finish the debate. Not even modern medicine can tell you that...as yet!! It is impossible for a heart to stop beating and for that person to remain conscious. How can that occur? I am not an expert on anatomy...but I do know that the heart is the generator of the body. If it stops for a certain period (I think that it is about 3 to 5 minutes) there is a good chance that the person may have brain damage (due to lack of oxygen). What you have mentioned are extremely rare cases.
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #47 on: 01/10/2006 11:03:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
I am not condemning modern medicine for going against nature....I am simply stating that nature...which permits the human species to live in liberty under a policy of "free will"....could not forsee and/or prevent (because of that policy) the capability of the human to IMPROVE resuscitation methods to a point whereby perhaps that "afterlife" (which nature itself perhaps prevents the human species from experiencing) can be "accessed". That is what I meant by  "unnatural"



As Gecko has said, we do not, and cannot, go against nature.  We do only what nature allows us to do – we are not outside nature, we are not unnatural beings.  The laws of nature that apply to everything else apply also to us.
Furthermore, to talk about nature as 'foreseeing' anything is to imply that nature has some grand design that we should adhere to.  Nature does not foresee anything, it merely lays down the rules, and allows circumstance to lead where it will (clearly, this is an atheist perspective, but it is a necessary scientific perspective – once you start regarding nature itself as being a sentient entity, and also regard the sentience of nature to be separate from the sentience of humanity, then you are delving into metaphysics, not physics).



George

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #48 on: 02/10/2006 00:54:39 »
As...I must admit that you are right. I used the INCORRECT word there. Of course nature does not forsee anything. However it has but ONE purpose only. To maximise the chances of survival of EVERYTHING in this world. For example: Birds: Here in Australia presently winter is offcially over. It is spring. Birds have started NESTING!! Now why does nature NOT PERMIT birds to simply start nesting in WINTER....but always in every country on earth in SPRING? Simple?? if they do so in winter and their young are hatched...FEATHERLESS....they MAY perish with the cold.By nesting in spring.....those baby birds have a BETTER chance of survival.....as spring is MILDER than winter.
 

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Offline bostjan

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« Reply #49 on: 02/10/2006 03:10:40 »
Ahem: 'The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards."'

So if your heart stops beating, but then starts again, you are not dead, by definition of death.  Not to split hairs, as this is the official definition in the United States.  If you have an official definition from another country that says otherwise, that's fine.  If you want to use a term to describe something, though, you should have a clear definition of the term, certainly.

Again, I'm not trying to shoot you down, just trying to get on the same page and proceed in a clear light so we may understand the idea better.