Near Death Experiences

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Offline gecko

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #50 on: 02/10/2006 05:35:04 »
so no one has been "brought back" from death, and no one ever can be, because by definition, its a loss of heart and/or brain function thats irreversible!

so even if medical practice could reccusitate people after a whole year with no brain or heart function, if they once again had the functions, then they were never dead, because it was reversible!

i get a big kick out of the whole idea.
 

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #51 on: 02/10/2006 10:01:54 »
Roarer you seem to be convinced of this "soul stuff" and happy about the violation of the conservation of energy etc.  but these do NOT occur.  Your ideas may be encouraged by modern science talking about things like "dark matter" and "dark energy" as places to hide your "soul stuff" but this would not work. The reason that it is "dark" is that it just does not interact with things in the electromagnetic way that we interact with the universe.  we are electromagnetic beings and even the strong and weak nuclear forces have now been reconciled with electromagnetism and quantum mechanics.  the remaining gravitational forces that govern the general size and shape of our universe are so unbelievably weak that they are not relavant except for the fact that they hold us and the atmosphere on the earth and provide the initial drive to enable the sun to perfom nuclear synthesis to keep us warm and build more atoms to form planets and eventually life.

Any "soul stuff" must have a physical existence and there is clearly no place in our universe for it to exist.  Metaphysics as a philosophical idea  means "beyond physics" but it does not refer to "magic" it refers to the wonderous way the simple physical laws organise themselves by recycling processes to extend their temporal interaction existance and evolve life.  You would do much better to spend your limited lifetime trying to understand this than trying to glimpse into a world that does not and cannot exist.  There is absolutely no life beyond death and it is essential for the universe to work that there isn't. If you think a little bit about it you will eventually understand why.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 02/10/2006 10:12:18 by Soul Surfer »
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #52 on: 03/10/2006 02:11:27 »
I tell you...I ONLY use the words "soul mode" and "body mode" NOT  because I am religious..but because there are NO other words I can think of to distinguish between the two. I suppose I can define those "states"..is that the right word?.....like "death"...and "life"..or something similiar. But I bet that even if I used these words....they would be challenged.
Now to the defintion of death. What does medical science define the state where the heart stops and the brain is starved of oxygen..if it is NOT death? Is there a medical or scientific definition of this and if so what is it called?
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #53 on: 04/10/2006 05:35:55 »
you can define death in your own mind however you like.  to me, it is irreversible, but to many christians, they throw out the notion of irreversible death based on faith.  from a semantical point of view, we have to define death a certain way for it to have meaning.  the medical community in the US defined it as i stated.  i don't know how it is defined in australia, but it very well may be different.  the medical term for a cardiac arrest is, of course, a cardiac arrest.  people can die from them, but sometimes survive.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #54 on: 04/10/2006 08:26:46 »
Bostjan....I have a feeling that many on this forum is being pedantic.
Science defines death as being quote "irreversable"....so this implies that when a patient is brought back by modern resuscitation techniques this was in fact reversable...thereby it WAS NOT actually DEATH!! Is this what is being implied here Alright then what happens if those modern resuscitation techniques..FAIL to bring back that patient. Then we can say.."Oh well..that was quote "irreversable" so that was actually....death"!! Are you serious....really...or are you trying to pull someone's leg
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #55 on: 04/10/2006 12:45:34 »
OK, I think we have ascertained that any precise point of irreversible death is flexible, but I would ask whether anyone would doubt that a fossilised skeleton is so far gone that it is not able to be brought back to a fully functioning organism (the DNA may be used to clone the animal – even that is not always the case; but what about the brain, the experiences of its life that are more than merely the contents of the DNA)?



George

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #56 on: 05/10/2006 05:49:36 »
Well, as morbid as this topic is, i keep coming back.

Look, the point is that resesutation is not the same thing as rezzurection.  A brain is not the same thing as a spirit, and memories are not the same as a soul.  There seems to be a lot of confusion about these things.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #57 on: 05/10/2006 10:41:33 »
AS...I would think that a skeleton would be thought of.....even under any minimal scientific equation....as having been past the point of no return.....in dying!!
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #58 on: 05/10/2006 21:12:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
Look, the point is that resesutation is not the same thing as rezzurection.  A brain is not the same thing as a spirit, and memories are not the same as a soul.  There seems to be a lot of confusion about these things.



Are you saying that the after having passed into an afterlife, you believe the person has lost all of their memories of this life (i.e. if two people meet up in the afterlife, they would not remember each other from their earthly lives, and even if they had been the closest of companions within this life, they would meet as strangers in the next)?



George

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #59 on: 06/10/2006 02:14:57 »
I have a theory...(oh not again roarer!!) that the 'afterlife" is the antithesis of this life.....e.g. we  suffer pain and dire consequences in this life....NONE in the other!! We get hungry and thirsty in this life...we do NOT in the other  etc.
Now if we believe this theory.... if we have a family..mother..father..brothers..sisters..sons..daughters in this life....in the "afterlife"..you would ONLY be YOU (this is confirmed by the way by those who experienced NDE's)....and no OTHER! You may not need them in that life anyway!!!Families are in this life for the sole purpose (once again) of nature to MAXIMISE the chances of survival of the human species. Can you imagine the chaos if NO ONE has any family...or families do not exist. Murders would remain unsolved and other things could occur
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #60 on: 06/10/2006 02:58:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
I have a theory...(oh not again roarer!!)



LOL [:)]

quote:

 that the 'afterlife" is the antithesis of this life.....e.g. we  suffer pain and dire consequences in this life....NONE in the other!! We get hungry and thirsty in this life...we do NOT in the other  etc.



Given that you do not seem to have made allowances for people to eat in the afterlife, it is very fortunate that they do not get hungry.

quote:

Now if we believe this theory.... if we have a family..mother..father..brothers..sisters..sons..daughters in this life....in the "afterlife"..you would ONLY be YOU (this is confirmed by the way by those who experienced NDE's)....and no OTHER!



So, you believe that in the afterlife, we have no link with the present life, because we have no memory of it; and we have no contact with any other human being either.  Do we have contact with any inanimate objects (we clearly have no need to have contact with food, drink, clothing, or shelter; and it does not seem to me logical to suggest that we would exist in a place where inanimate objects exist but that is devoid of anything animate)?

If we are in a place without memory, and without any current environment with which to interact, then we seem in effect to be in a void.  By what means do you regard this 'afterlife' to be a life at all?




George

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #61 on: 06/10/2006 07:45:38 »
Perhaps this is the afterlife after all.  We could have all been superheroes in another universe who all got exposed to kryptonite and ended up here.  [:0)]

Seriously though, assuming there is an afterlife, if I can take the memories in my brain, why shouldn't I also take my colourblindness?  Why wouldn't I take my ulcers?  Why not take the cash in my pocket and my car, then?  Memories are synapses wired into my grey matter, so what makes them so much different from any other material object aside from the fact that we hold them to be more important for survival?  We know memories can be created and destroyed.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #62 on: 07/10/2006 02:31:47 »
The reason I am not convinced that there is NO "afterlife" is the fact that it's detractors do not have convincing arguments..including learned people (e.g. Dr. Susan Blackmore.)
On the other hand the circumstantial evidence of that "afterlife"...is ALL in this life. The way "nature" is virtually programmed,  not to force..but to give incentive, to maximise the chances of survival of the human species.
All this had to have a "creator"...as creations....have to have a "creator"..they could not come from nowhere.
As I said...that evidence is NOT CONCLUSIVE....which as we discussed previously...may be in the best interest of the human species.
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #63 on: 07/10/2006 09:54:49 »
No one will ever convince anyone anything about an afterlife, because it's a made-up idea in our imaginations with no tangible connection to the real world.  That doesn't mean that it cannot exist, it just means that we cannot know about it now, and will not know about this life if and when an afterlife comes about.  That is all.  Any theories about the afterlife are pure speculation, including the theory that there is not one.  It's just like arguing about the existance of god.  It cannot be done by either side, unless you decide that god must have some tangible connection to what we can see, which no one wants to do.

And if I'm wrong, you had better watch out for the zombies sneaking up behind you!  LOL
 

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another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #64 on: 08/10/2006 00:15:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
The reason I am not convinced that there is NO "afterlife" is the fact that it's detractors do not have convincing arguments..including learned people (e.g. Dr. Susan Blackmore.)
On the other hand the circumstantial evidence of that "afterlife"...is ALL in this life. The way "nature" is virtually programmed,  not to force..but to give incentive, to maximise the chances of survival of the human species.
All this had to have a "creator"...as creations....have to have a "creator"..they could not come from nowhere.
As I said...that evidence is NOT CONCLUSIVE....which as we discussed previously...may be in the best interest of the human species.



I am sorry to say that the above statement, while a perfectly valid exposition of your own beliefs, fails miserably in terms of logic.

To say that you are not convinced of something because the arguments are not convincing is a circular statement – it tells me nothing other than that you personally do not find the arguments convincing.  It may well be that you would never find any argument convincing, no matter how logically complete and absolute that argument was – the statement you have given tells me nothing of the facts, but only about your own position on the matter.

The debate about a creator, whatever its merits or otherwise, is totally separate from the arguments pertaining to an afterlife.  It is perfectly feasible that even if an afterlife were to be shown to exist, that there would still be no creator.  It is also feasible that even if you could show that there was a creator, that this creator would not have created an afterlife.  In fact, I would suggest that in practice it would be far more logical that if there was a creator, and He had a purpose in creating us, that He would have given us a finite lifespan that was just long enough to achieve His purpose and no more.  It is also very plausible that such a creator might have given us to believe that we had an afterlife to come, but there is no pragmatic reason to believe that he would have actually delivered on that expectation.



George

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #65 on: 08/10/2006 01:18:15 »
AS and Bostjan...your arguments do have some validity. I suppose I could be at the other end of the spectrum..where nothing will convince me that THERE IS an afterlife.And as to the other argument. We have  tangible (and physical) "creations" here on this planet....e.g moon, stars..trees...sea....etc....NON-MAN-MADE entities. Where did they come from? Who "created" them? We can agree that they have been "created"...They did not just happen.If they are "created"...then there must be a "creator"? Who is s/he? This "creator" would have to be of immense genius.....do we agree?
So the question follows:
Would a "creator" of such an immense genius be capable of creating a "state" which is so sophisticated that it takes  an unknown imagination to understand it? This "state" is of course....an "afterlife" (as we call it here on this planet)
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #66 on: 08/10/2006 01:56:57 »
There are two answers:

1) Someone created them.  In that case, who created this person?  Where is this person now and why are they not creating more stuff that we can see?
2) They just happened.  In that case, why did they happen?  Why did it stop happening?

Neither is generally satisfactory to the skeptical mind, but the search for explaination the last thirty years or so has been almost completely concerned with trying to learn more about situation number two.

So where do things come from?

The moon came from stardust collected into a ball due to a well in gravitational potential.  Then it was shaped by bombardment with other smaller particles created by similar means on a smaller scale.

Where do star come from?  Stars come from planetary nebulae, where gasses collect into balls as above, except the gravity becomes high enough to force hydrogen to fuse into deuterium and then forces deuterium to fuse into helium.  This releases lots of energy and causes the ball of gas to become a star.

Where do trees come from?  They come from germs in seeds and nuts.  When exposed to certain temperatures and light, a chemical is activated that starts a chain reaction of mineral and water gathering from outside the seed or nut.  This process grows larger, by cellular reproduction, until there is a tree.

Where did the sea come from?  The temperature and atmospheric conditions on earth were such that ice was allowed to exist in liquid, ice, and vapor forms all at once.  Other worlds exist with seas of other substances, as determined by their temperature and pressure.  We ended up with water.  Gravity pulled the liquid water to the lowest points on the surface to form the sea.

There are many things we do not know, however.  Some people still believe the moon came out of the center of the earth.  Some children still believe the moon is made of cheese.  A majority of westerners believe that god created the moon out of nothing.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #67 on: 08/10/2006 08:04:23 »
My friend Bostjan...you have fallen into that scientific trap where you are attempting to disprove the existance of a "creator" by stating the METHOD of conception of those non man-made entities.
Where did the moon come from?.....and then you proceeded to state the method on how this occured. This does NOTHING to disprove a "creator'...it simply reinforces it. Has it occured to you and the scientific community in general....that this was the method.....as used by the "creator". In case you did not understand I shall endeavor to submit an analogy.
A car model is designed and made in a factory. Someone from that enterprise comes along and tells us about the METHOD..on how this is made in that factory.....and the specific machines used for producing that car model
Does this mean that car was not DESIGNED or CREATED by someone?
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #68 on: 08/10/2006 09:12:32 »
I agree that it does nothing to disprove a 'creater,' but I disagree with your statement that it reinforces it.

There is nothing to prove the existance of a creator, and nothing out there to disprove it.  This is why no one can prove monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, atheism nor agnosticism.

The simple argument that keeps all schools of thought from destroying one another is that the creator, creators, or lack of creator is/are very elusive in leaving signs for us to see as far as identification is concerned.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #69 on: 09/10/2006 01:20:51 »
I wholly contend that the entities which  are NOT man made on this planet is tangible and PHYSICAL evidence of a "creator" at work irrespective of the method under which they were conceived.Why?
As logic makes the world go around...the logic behind this is simply the following:
1) A TV set and a car (man made objects) had a creator.....MAN
2) The moon and stars (non-man made objects AND BEING AS PHYSICAL AND TANGIBLE AS A CAR AND A TV SET) had similiarly...a creator...........UNKNOWN.
However just because s/he is UNKNOWN does not mean that s/he IS NOT  creator
I say UNKNOWN simply because I am NOT religious. The various religions claim that the suprenatural being we are referring to is....GOD.
I am not.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2006 01:25:32 by roarer »
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #70 on: 09/10/2006 02:26:33 »
The tangible creator of the stars and the moon is gravity.  If everything must have a creator and there is a god, who created god?  Super-god?  Proto-god?  That line of thinking is illogical.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #71 on: 09/10/2006 08:13:45 »
Bostjan...let me clarify your contentions here. You are NOT contradicting the fact that a TV set and a car (which are physical and tangible) was created by man.You are however contradicting the fact that the moon....stars...which are NOT figments of our imaginations...but cannot  be but categorised as being  EQUALLY physical and tangible as that TV set and the car were created. You are therefore contending that they came from nowhere (e.g from gravity) If ALL entities are physical and tangible....and two of them (e.g. TV set and car)are proven to be created..how can you argue then that the remaining entities are not? It is either ALL or nothing. Conversely...we may argue that the moon and stars...came from nothing....and so did the TV set and car?????
And...I am not claiming that there is a God...or a super God. All I claimed was the theory that there may be an abstract being of unimaginable genius...whose only tangible "weapon" is...nature. It may well be that NATURE is that abstract being.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2006 08:22:09 by roarer »
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #72 on: 09/10/2006 08:55:58 »
Wow, last I checked, 'all or nothing' was not a valid logical argument.

If all apples are fruits…and two of them are grown in New Zeeland…how can you argue then that the remaining apples are not?  You say it's either all or nothing, so either the two apples didn't come from New Zeeland, or all of the apples must come from New Zeeland by an analogous argument.

Again, the god arguments are an easy place to get confused, because you want there to be logical explainations, but there are not.  Or so I claim.  If you want to make a logical argument, make sure that it is truly logical.  I'm not going to say that I can prove that there is a god or that there is no god, but I am saying that you cannot, either.
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #73 on: 10/10/2006 01:11:06 »
I'll put it in another way. I believe that every entity which is TANGIBLE AND PHYSICAL on this planet....has been created (via a natural method)...that is...they did not come from nothing.
The entitites which are created by Man....can be proven.
However it would the height of banality for anyone to contend that the moon...stars...sea.....trees.....sun....human species......etc...were created by Man. And Bostjan before you say that the human species..IS created by humans ...via the "sex act and/or pregnancy"..I shall tell you now....that the "sex act and/or pregnancy" is but the METHOD under which the human being is created. Who created.....the "sex act and/or preganancy"? You will probably say..."Oh no one....it just WAS THERE"!! It came from NOWHERE!! The "sex act and/or pregnancy" are (once again) TANGIBLE AND PHYSICAL enitities.....
 

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Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #74 on: 10/10/2006 02:59:20 »
Sex act is a physical entity?

You saying anything came from anything else, when you can neither see nor measure the instant when it was created nor any evidence of the person who created it, is pure conjecture!  You can believe that all you want, yet, you cannot argue a fact based on conjecture.  Evolution is a theory which was formulated based on evidence.  There has been much evidence to support evolution.  No people were around to see humans evolve from apes over thousands of years, though, so we can never prove that humans evolved from apes.  No one was there to see god create the universe, so why are some people so sure that they can prove that he/she/it did?  It doesn't make any sense!

And if I said humans use the method of sex act to create more humans, then I would have just told you who created them, as well as what method they used.  [;)]
 

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #75 on: 11/10/2006 02:02:25 »
Quote" No one saw God create the world..so why do people say that he did" end quote
I am NOT saying and have never said that God created anything. All I said was that ALL physical and/or tangible entities on this planet are CREATED simply because...we can SEE them...we CAN PRACTICE them (as in the sex act etc)..in some instances we CAN TOUCH THEM...(e.g. trees...sea....etc). We have the PHYSICAL AND TANGIBLE EVIDENCE. Now if we accept that ALL entities in this STATE...were CREATED....NOT.....that they came from NOWHERE.....then we have to accept that they had a......CREATOR. Now when we say ALL entities we have to include......EVERTHING physical...which means MAN MADE ENTITIES...which are easily IDENTIFIED....and NON MAN MADE entities..again which are easily IDENTIFIED.
 

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Offline patagao

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #76 on: 14/10/2006 21:34:49 »
Overview of OBE and NDE investigation:
http://cref.tripod.com/article_oberesearch.htm

See also, Ring & Cooper's "Mindsight":
http://www.nderf.org/Mindsight.htm


OBE RESEARCH

One of the first researchers to perform laboratorial experiments on the OBE was psychologist Dr. Charles Theodore Tart (1937 - ). In 1966, he invited a young projector to participate in a series of experiments in the sleep laboratory of the University of California - Davis. The historical projectiological experiments took four nights in which the projector - "Miss Z" - was to lay down and try to exit the physical body, while connected to a series of devices that measured her physiological conditions. The objective of the experiments was the identification of a quasi-randomly generated five-digit number, approximately 1.5 meters above her head (impossible to be physically observed).

 

From Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself).

 

Between 1965 and 1966, the same pioneer researcher studied Robert Allan Monroe in 8 occasions in the Electroencephalographical Laboratory of the School of Medicine at the University of Virginia.  Equipment like EEG, ECG, and EOG was employed, much to the discomfort of the projector.  Monroe was asked to read a 5-digit, quasi-random number on a shelf placed 2 meters above the floor.  

 

During the first seven nights, he was not successful. On the eight night, he had two brief lateral projections.  On the first one he witnessed some strangers talking at an unknown place at a distance, fact which could not be confirmed.  However, on the second occasion, Monroe correctly described, outside the room, the woman technician and a man, later identified as her husband.

 

The ocular movements were slower than in regular sleep. The Stage I brain wave pattern, typical of natural sleep with dreams, was observed almost immediately after Monroe laid down – an extremely rare event, as this stage normally occurs after 80 to 90 minutes of sleep without dreams.  The heart rate was between 65 and 75 beats per minute.

 

A study by Janet Lee Mitchell (American Society for Psychical Research, ASPR) and Karlis Osis on the traveling clairvoyance of surrealist painter and writer Ingo Swann resulted in 8 of 8 correct target observations with 1 in 40,000 probability for a chance occurrence.  When Swann reported his vision was outside of his body, there was loss of electrical activity and faster brain wave impulses in the visual areas in the occipital lobes. During this state, there was great drop in alpha activity in the right hemisphere than the left, which other organic functions remained normal.

 

Osis also carried out a “fly-in” experiment with around 100 projectors who had as a target a small office in the fourth floor of ASPR, where they were to inspect four target objects (unknown to them, to be observed in a certain time frame and angle of observation).  Only 15% of them reached this office.  Osis did not think the results of this experiment were significant, because event the best projectors often described objects in terms of their form and colors and not as material things with their exact names.  This experiment demonstrates the hypothesis that the process of information acquisition or cognition during projection of the consciousness is different from what would be expected from physical experience and even from common extrasensory perception.

 

There were, however, interesting observations.  Some, like a projector from Toronto who observed a fire in a nearby block, got sidetracked by other things along the way.  Others saw the objects with distortions, or reported circular or global vision (seeing in all directions simultaneously).  A barrier placed on the table to separate the different targets was seen as transparent by many of them.

 

Alexander Tanous related that his awareness traveled several times from Portland (Maine) to the target locale during the experiment.  Not only did he correctly observe the objects and shape of the table, but also noted a tea cup, which indeed was unintentionally left there by another researcher.  Elwood Babbitt also described the target correctly in his third fly-in from Massachusetts. He also correctly drew the shape and location of a broad, small plant, a painting, and small sculpture of a smiling girl.  Teddy Marmoreo of Toronto projected to the site at night before the experiment and saw Osis sleeping at ASPR – an account which was confirmed.

 

In 1977, Robert Lyle Morris and Stuart Harary of Duke University carried out an inventive experiment.  From the University of California – Santa Barbara, Harary (his body connected to various physiological devices) was to visit Spirit, his two-month old cat, whose movements in a cage were detected by sensors at Duke.  Sharp behavioral difference was observed when the projector was out of body and near the cat, which became passive, calm, without meowing as if it was seeing or feeling Harary’s presence.  When he wasn’t projected, Spirit was continuously trying to exit the cage it was in and meowed 37 times.  The results were considered p=.01.  Simple telepathy was excluded through a false projection, where Harary simply imagined the occurrence. In posterior studies where the animal did not have affinity with Harary the results were insignificant.

 

In 1979, Karlis Osis and Donna McCormick verified that a projector correctly identified a random optical target, in a locked room replete of sensors, 114 of 197 (57.87%) trials in 20 sessions.  During these 114 “hits,” kinetic effects were observed demonstrating the presence of something subtle but nonetheless physical.

 

Related to the OBE, the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) Laboratory Precognitive Remote Perception (PRP) studies in 1987 already contained 334 formal trials obtained by some 40 “percipients”, who generated written descriptions of an unknown geographical target where the “agent” was located before, during, or after the description.  Then, they were to fill out a check sheet of questions for later analytical judging.  Results have varied from “photographic precision,” to partial correspondence of environment and/or components, to completely inaccurate.  Major geometrical distortions, differences in emphasis of parts of the scene, progression from accurate to inaccurate description or vice-versa are not uncommon.  Brenda Dunne and Dr. Robert Jahn therefore created a more systematic quantitative assessment procedures.  The one that combined effectiveness with simplicity the best was through a list of thirty statistically weighted, binary descriptor questions.

 

Together with Rodrigo Medeiros, Patricia Sousa runs the Image Target Project, an experiment that invites people from all over the world to drop by a locked room at IAC - Miami with a computer monitor displaying a picture.  The picture is randomly selected by a computer.  A similar experiment series by Wagner Alegretti and Nanci Trivellato, Projective Field, brings dozens of projectors together to a ballroom for a weekend of eight OBE attempts.  After several editions, these experiments have captured relatively rare but uncanny OBE and remote viewing observations of photographic precision.

 

A similar pilot study with physical objects and physiological monitoring at the University of São Paulo’s sleep laboratory with lucid projectors of the Center for Higher Studies of the Consciousness was recently televised on Globo Reporter (“Projeção Astral”).

 

Near-Death Experience

 

Some of most persuasive experimental evidence on out-of-body experience to date is on the near-death experience.

 

The December 2001 issue of the internationally acclaimed medical journal The Lancet published research by Dr. Pim van Lommel et al conducted in 10 Dutch hospitals for over 10 years. Patients (n = 334) were resuscitated from heart or breathing failures after a fixed amount of time. This ensured the amount of oxygen depletion would be approximately the same. This prospective study showed anoxia was not a leading cause of NDE’s because the incidence was 12 to 18% rather than almost all or almost none as was expected by skeptics. The majority of NDEr’s felt this was one of the most positively marking experiences of their life, helping them re-prioritize their activities toward more purposeful living, and even improving their personality and interactions with other humans.

 

Cardiologist Michael Sabom is among physicians who can no longer deny that consciousness can exist in the absence of a functioning brain.  With neurosurgeon Michael Spetzler (Barrow Institute, Phoenix, Arizona), he studied the pivotal Pam Reynold’s case. The 35-year-old was placed on “standstill” – that is, her heart was stopped, brain function ceased, and her eyes and ears were shut – for an intracranial procedure. Reynolds reports she “popped out” of her body through a tunnel experience and was surprised to see her body undergo what looked like a groin operation. Unbeknownst to her, the procedure required the insertion of catheters for a heart-lung machine. “That can’t be right,” she thought before she saw her long-dead grandmother, friends, and other relatives. Eventually, she says, her uncle instructed her to return.  It felt like “plunging into a pool of ice water.”  This case begs the question: “how can one hallucinate without brain function?” Of course, it cannot. Skeptics believe, however, that NDE’s start and end with a dying brain.

 

Many skeptics ascribe NDE perceptions to supposed perceptions of a dying brain.  However, lucid projectors have out-of-body experiences by will without a dying brain condition and can still see “beings of life,” and even perceive the characteristic “tunnel” often associated with NDE’s. More importantly, they are able to make accurate observations of distant physical environments and interact among themselves while projected. For instance, in the van Lommel’s study, one patient recognized the nurse who removed his dentures while he (or rather, his body) was in a coma.  Under Michael Sabom, MD, another prospective study is underway at Dallas Hartford Hospital in Texas employing image targets placed high above the bed.  

 

Another interesting avenue of research are the NDE’s and pre-birth memories of children, because their accounts are much less likely to be attributed to acculturation or hidden memories (cryptomnesia) from information they may have in their memory from, say, a documentary on NDE. Compared to near-birth experiences and pre-natal out-of-body experiences with posterior confirmations, the Journal of Resuscitation’s report by Southampton General Hospital (UK) does not seem so controversial. It reported that 11% of NDE patients in the study had memories of events during the unconscious period, and that 6% of the resuscitated after cardiac arrest had NDE’s.  

 

Central to the debate is the kind of worldview scientists adopt.  Consciousness-centered paradigms point out that even though extraordinary experiences can be triggered by electromagnetic pulses, stress (e.g. drowning victim), physical trauma (e.g. head injury), and chemicals, they are also produced spontaneously or by will.  Detected neural activity that is characteristic of such altered states is not necessarily the cause: it is just as logically plausible that it is a concomitant effect.

 

It seems that no matter how the credible and persuasive the experimental evidence, there is no replacement for personal experience.  This is the motivation behind the development of projectiology, a first- and second-person science of projections of the consciousness, and the consciential paradigm which requires scientists to have their own OBE’s and arrive at an evolving consensus of their experiences, including – potentially – joint or group OBE’s.

 


http://cref.tripod.com

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Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #77 on: 15/10/2006 08:26:43 »
I have read  before of experimentations which prove (as above) of some sort of "out of body" experience. The above poster's intention in posting the above is unclear. Is s/he attempting to disprove an "afterlife"? If so, the above described experimentation and their ilk do nothing of the sort.
I am not disputing the fact that we, the human species, have some sort of natural ability (religions define it as a soul and from   scientific experimentations this "location" has been established to be just above the right ear) to, perhaps during sleep...or during some trauma, have an "out of body" experience.But.....and this is the unknown condition...what if this experience is some sort of natural prelude to some sort of transition...into the "afterlife" and this
"natural ability" can be triggered  (and experienced)in the laboratory?
 

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Offline patagao

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Near Death Experiences
« Reply #78 on: 09/02/2007 14:26:05 »
Since we cannot prove things, exactly, but rather judge whether or not there is enough evidence to discard a null hypothesis, the intent of the lit review was to show that there is plenty of evidence to encourage open-minded and curious scientists with regards to the mind-body, brain-consciousness, survival after death questions.  Materialism/reductionism may be scientifically falsified!

And roarer pointed out to the next step: "what if this experience [...] this
"natural ability" can be triggered  (and experienced) in the laboratory?

This is why a focus of my colleagues has been, for years, on training individuals to produce more OBE's, with more lucidity, and more control -- to allow for more replicability -- at least in the statistical/probabilistic sense. 

Also, recently, in November, the world's first facility specifically designed to facilitate and investigate the out-of-body experience was inaugurated. It is called the Projectarium. It's located near Evora, southern Portugal.  You can read more about the 9-meter diameter sphere, if you'd like: http://cref.tripod.com/#projectarium

Over 60 people tried it out in the first month. I spoke with some of them. Most of them had very vivid and intense sensations and experiences to report. Even the more experienced ones -- one for example, had his quickest "partial projection" ever. In a matter of seconds after laying down.  During a partial projection, it feels as if only parts of the subtle body (or conservatively, what is thought/felt to be the subtle body) disconnect. Say, just the arms or legs; only waste up; etc. This often happens without any break in lucidity.  Just one part of the rich phenomenology of this experience.

Nelson
Nelson.Abreu@iacworld.org
http://www.iacworld.org/
http://cref.tripod.com/
« Last Edit: 09/02/2007 14:30:47 by patagao »