Water as a fuel ?

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Offline neilep

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Water as a fuel ?
« on: 16/09/2006 21:00:46 »
Hello,

I'm Neil.  [:)]

Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen !!...is it not possible to break it down and use it for fuel ?...surely there must be some studies  going on about this eh ?..how far have they got ?...presumably not very far else we'd have heard about it eh ?

Thanks

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #1 on: 16/09/2006 21:11:59 »
I believe they have something like that here in Arcata, I will see if I can find out more for you! there has been a group really trtying hard to get a hydropowered vehicle going here.. they alredy have the vegetable oil powered car around here, a couple I believe! Check out this school link and I will ask around also! http://www.redwoods.edu  I will check out Humboldt state University too. They have had their hands in the mix too! Hey how do I get that link to come up blue so it goes when you click it

Karen

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #2 on: 16/09/2006 21:13:45 »
Never mind I think it did it by itself, Cool beans!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #3 on: 16/09/2006 21:29:56 »
There is much talk about using hydrogen as a fuel, and the primary source of hydrogen is likely to be the spliting of water.

The problem is that hydrogen is never going to be a primary source of energy because the energy receovered from using hydrogen as a fuel will never exceed the energy required to obtain hydrigen from water.  So, the only real value in hydrogen is as ameans of transmitting energy from one place to another, never as a primary source in its own right (the only exception to that is if one is talking about nuclear fusion as an energy source, but that is yet to be proven to be practical).



George

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Offline neilep

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #4 on: 17/09/2006 00:16:13 »
THANK YOU KAREN & THANK YOU GEORGE ,

Well, hopefully one day there will be an economically viable way of extracting the fuel from water.

How much Hydrogen is in a pint of water anyway ?...enough to inflate a balloon ?...a blimp ?...my blo...ahem...A blow-up-doll ? !!

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #5 on: 17/09/2006 00:40:45 »
LOL!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #6 on: 17/09/2006 01:46:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Well, hopefully one day there will be an economically viable way of extracting the fuel from water.



But would this be a blessing or a curse?  A curse akin the the curse upon King Midas, for whom all he touch would turn to gold, yet he could not eat the gold.

Today, our primary source of fuel is sometimes known as 'black gold'.  We consume large quantities of crude oil, so much so that many thing we are close to running out of this material (I don't actually think we are that close to running out of it yet, but we are certainly running out of the most accessible supplies of oil).  It is the nature of humanity to consume what is available to it, and humans have always built their continued expansion upon using as much of the available resources that they can.  In many ways, we have no choice, except the option that human civilisation should stagnate and collapse.

That we may run out of oil will present a problem for our petrochemical industries.  If we start to consume water as a fuel, what lies ahead for us as we run out of water (as one day inevitably we will even if in the mean time we will expand our energy usage by many orders of magnitude in order to fuel ever more magnificent technologies with this new fuel).  It will not only be the petrochemical industry that will be threatened by the consumption of all our water, but the totality of life on this planet for we will not only lose our energy supply, but the water we drink.  We will in fact have been cursed with the Midas touch.



quote:

How much Hydrogen is in a pint of water anyway ?...enough to inflate a balloon ?...a blimp ?...my blo...ahem...A blow-up-doll ? !!



1 pint = approx 500cc.
Water weighs about 1g/cc, and thus 500cc will weight about 500g.
1 mole of water weighs 18.02g, thus 500g of water contains 27.75 moles.
1 mole of water contains 2 moles of monatomic hydrogen (and 1 mole of oxygen), thus 500cc of water contains about 55.5 moles of hydrogen.  The complicating factor is that the normal form of hydrogen is the diatomic form, and therefore 1 mole of water will only yield 1 mole of diatomic hydrogen, and thus 500cc of water will only yield 27.75 moles of diatomic hydrogen.
For any gas, no matter what the gas, at standard temperature and pressure, 1 mole of gas will occupy 22.4 litres of space, and thus 27.75 moles of diatomic hydrogen will occupy 621.6 litres of volume.

Thus, 500ml (approx. 1 pint) of water can yield approx 621.6 litres of hydrogen gas at 1 bar pressure and a temperature of 273.15 kelvin.




George

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #7 on: 16/09/2006 21:11:59 »
I believe they have something like that here in Arcata, I will see if I can find out more for you! there has been a group really trtying hard to get a hydropowered vehicle going here.. they alredy have the vegetable oil powered car around here, a couple I believe! Check out this school link and I will ask around also! http://www.redwoods.edu  I will check out Humboldt state University too. They have had their hands in the mix too! Hey how do I get that link to come up blue so it goes when you click it

Karen

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #8 on: 16/09/2006 21:13:45 »
Never mind I think it did it by itself, Cool beans!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #9 on: 16/09/2006 21:29:56 »
There is much talk about using hydrogen as a fuel, and the primary source of hydrogen is likely to be the spliting of water.

The problem is that hydrogen is never going to be a primary source of energy because the energy receovered from using hydrogen as a fuel will never exceed the energy required to obtain hydrigen from water.  So, the only real value in hydrogen is as ameans of transmitting energy from one place to another, never as a primary source in its own right (the only exception to that is if one is talking about nuclear fusion as an energy source, but that is yet to be proven to be practical).



George

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Offline neilep

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #10 on: 17/09/2006 00:16:13 »
THANK YOU KAREN & THANK YOU GEORGE ,

Well, hopefully one day there will be an economically viable way of extracting the fuel from water.

How much Hydrogen is in a pint of water anyway ?...enough to inflate a balloon ?...a blimp ?...my blo...ahem...A blow-up-doll ? !!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #11 on: 17/09/2006 00:40:45 »
LOL!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2006 01:46:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Well, hopefully one day there will be an economically viable way of extracting the fuel from water.



But would this be a blessing or a curse?  A curse akin the the curse upon King Midas, for whom all he touch would turn to gold, yet he could not eat the gold.

Today, our primary source of fuel is sometimes known as 'black gold'.  We consume large quantities of crude oil, so much so that many thing we are close to running out of this material (I don't actually think we are that close to running out of it yet, but we are certainly running out of the most accessible supplies of oil).  It is the nature of humanity to consume what is available to it, and humans have always built their continued expansion upon using as much of the available resources that they can.  In many ways, we have no choice, except the option that human civilisation should stagnate and collapse.

That we may run out of oil will present a problem for our petrochemical industries.  If we start to consume water as a fuel, what lies ahead for us as we run out of water (as one day inevitably we will even if in the mean time we will expand our energy usage by many orders of magnitude in order to fuel ever more magnificent technologies with this new fuel).  It will not only be the petrochemical industry that will be threatened by the consumption of all our water, but the totality of life on this planet for we will not only lose our energy supply, but the water we drink.  We will in fact have been cursed with the Midas touch.



quote:

How much Hydrogen is in a pint of water anyway ?...enough to inflate a balloon ?...a blimp ?...my blo...ahem...A blow-up-doll ? !!



1 pint = approx 500cc.
Water weighs about 1g/cc, and thus 500cc will weight about 500g.
1 mole of water weighs 18.02g, thus 500g of water contains 27.75 moles.
1 mole of water contains 2 moles of monatomic hydrogen (and 1 mole of oxygen), thus 500cc of water contains about 55.5 moles of hydrogen.  The complicating factor is that the normal form of hydrogen is the diatomic form, and therefore 1 mole of water will only yield 1 mole of diatomic hydrogen, and thus 500cc of water will only yield 27.75 moles of diatomic hydrogen.
For any gas, no matter what the gas, at standard temperature and pressure, 1 mole of gas will occupy 22.4 litres of space, and thus 27.75 moles of diatomic hydrogen will occupy 621.6 litres of volume.

Thus, 500ml (approx. 1 pint) of water can yield approx 621.6 litres of hydrogen gas at 1 bar pressure and a temperature of 273.15 kelvin.




George

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #13 on: 20/09/2006 08:30:02 »
Jeese George,where do you get all this information.. Man I wish I could pull that out of my back pocket so easily.... jeese louise!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #14 on: 20/09/2006 10:50:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

Jeese George,where do you get all this information.. Man I wish I could pull that out of my back pocket so easily.... jeese louise!

Karen



The actual numbers I had to look up, but the principles behind it are all from my school days - nothing that I did not learn at school, all of about 35 years ago.



George
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 10:53:35 by another_someone »

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #15 on: 20/09/2006 08:30:02 »
Jeese George,where do you get all this information.. Man I wish I could pull that out of my back pocket so easily.... jeese louise!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #16 on: 20/09/2006 10:50:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

Jeese George,where do you get all this information.. Man I wish I could pull that out of my back pocket so easily.... jeese louise!

Karen



The actual numbers I had to look up, but the principles behind it are all from my school days - nothing that I did not learn at school, all of about 35 years ago.



George
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 10:53:35 by another_someone »

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #17 on: 21/09/2006 16:37:38 »
Man you must have a mind like a trap.. I am not so talented.. and have a real problem with retention... I have to read do hands on and really study to retain anything like that!! ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO THIS KIND OF STUFF SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS WERE ALWAYS PARTICULARLY HARD FOR ME!! i DID WELL IN ENGISH HEALTH MUSIC  ART, HISTORY.. GEOGRAPHY STUNK TOO! I am in the dark about things like where the heck you are, I must get a gobe out inorder to see, and then I forget untill I look again!! I am always lost!
  When my mom was passing away we tried to excercise great humor for the last few weeks.. and about 5 days befor eshe left us, She was lying in her bed looking through her old jewelry boxes and trying to get her girls to take the things she wanted them to have... she reached into  her box and pulled out three compasses and grabbed my hand.. and placed them there and closed my hand and said , now you will always be able to find your way..... She smiled and snickered and I lost my humor as my funny bone would not kick in.. and I just cried because without her I was so lost!! Now I look at them and she makes me smile.. She new me so well!! so funny I get turned around in an elevator so those compasses were appropriate, but I don't know how to use one! I guess I really should Learn!

Karen
« Last Edit: 21/09/2006 16:38:27 by Karen W. »

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Offline neilep

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #18 on: 21/09/2006 17:23:33 »
I knew all that too of course...but thanks for confirming it George [;)]...so I'm clever too Karen mam..me me me me me me !!!

It's quite astonishing how much hydrogen is in a pint of water !


I understand that there could in fact be some instances when a fire is so hot that water would in fact act as a fuel.....Some of those weird explosive metal type things ! [:D] (hope my technical terminology is not to too complicated for you) [:D]

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Offline otis01

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #19 on: 21/09/2006 17:52:14 »
It seems Water could be use more efficiently by harnessing its natural power, rather than changing its state and "consuming" it. Hydro-electric plants could be far more effecient with
a focus on inproving them. I also recently saw a proto-type solar power/hydro system.
 This system works by using large mirrors that are essentially half-tubes. A large diameter pipe is mounted at the center of the light reflection. Water is pumped through a large system of this tubing that is heated to 750 degrees by the reflective mirrors. At this point the water is steam, and used to run steam powered generators. The only by-product is steam. Comes back down as rain and the process can be started again. Imagine that, no pullution. There's a concept.

 Electricity seems to be the best "fuel" we have. Finding the most environmentally safe ways to create, store, and utilize it are the only obstacles. Utilizing water in a non-destructve way might be the most realistic option.
« Last Edit: 21/09/2006 17:54:06 by otis01 »
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #20 on: 21/09/2006 23:51:09 »
Excellent Post Otis01....THANK YOU and welcome to the site.

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #21 on: 22/09/2006 03:42:37 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

I knew all that too of course...but thanks for confirming it George [;)]...so I'm clever too Karen mam..me me me me me me !!!


 YES indeed I know you are clever too...!! DOWN boy down... Don't go gettin your little feelers hurt.. I know you  are so darn clever for sure!!


It's quite astonishing how much hydrogen is in a pint of water !


I understand that there could in fact be some instances when a fire is so hot that water would in fact act as a fuel.....Some of those weird explosive metal type things ! [:D] (hope my technical terminology is not to too complicated for you) [:D]

Went right over my head but everything goes over my head... sorry guys takes me awhile!![;)]



Men are the same as women, just inside out !



Karen

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Offline neilep

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #22 on: 22/09/2006 04:10:04 »
It's just like Airplanes Mam...They confuse me too...They go right over my head ! [:)]

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #23 on: 22/09/2006 04:16:19 »
Science stuff confuses me.. I wish it did not take me so long to get something!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #24 on: 22/09/2006 06:04:45 »
Science is easy.  Now, languages confuse me.  OK, it does not help that we never actually learn formal grammar in school here, so there is a lot about the structure of language that we are missing; but I think the bigger problem is that I have a very visual memory, and I cannot remember sounds.

Geography is OK only insofar as I can remember maps (visual again).  History, I used to have problems at school with (but then there were lost of things I could learn outside school, but got bored with at school), but I always enjoyed history away from school.  Not that good with dates, but am OK with remembering the relationships between events (that was always the problem with school - they tried to teach history as a series of isolated events, rather than a set of interrelated events).



George

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #25 on: 22/09/2006 15:39:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

Science stuff confuses me.. I wish it did not take me so long to get something!
I think you could be much more good in science if you were very much interested in it. I can easily remember formulas or physical/chemical values, because they have a deep meaning for me, but not for others. The same for other kinds of things; it's incredibly difficult for me to remember a law, for example, even if I study it a lot of times (this would be very important for my work).

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #26 on: 22/09/2006 15:46:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

I understand that there could in fact be some instances when a fire is so hot that water would in fact act as a fuel.....Some of those weird explosive metal type things ! [:D] (hope my technical terminology is not to too complicated for you) [:D]
Yes, metallic magnesium, for example, burns better in the presence of much water vapour than of air: if you take a little piece of magnesium and you ignite it with a flame, it burns with a bright white light; if then you put it over a pot with boiling water, it burns faster and brighter.

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #27 on: 01/10/2006 02:30:22 »
OH that is really cool. thats interesting,! If it burns brighter does that also mean it will burn hotter, and perhaps apply that to powering something when the presence of water comes into play!! I am not sure I phrased that the way I meant it! Answer me first and I will see if that is what I meant, I confused myself!! LOL not hard to do at all!



Karen

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #28 on: 01/10/2006 03:05:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by lightarrow

quote:
Originally posted by neilep

I understand that there could in fact be some instances when a fire is so hot that water would in fact act as a fuel.....Some of those weird explosive metal type things ! [:D] (hope my technical terminology is not to too complicated for you) [:D]
Yes, metallic magnesium, for example, burns better in the presence of much water vapour than of air: if you take a little piece of magnesium and you ignite it with a flame, it burns with a bright white light; if then you put it over a pot with boiling water, it burns faster and brighter.



I love experimental science...I remember when I was learning the chemical symbols....oh, yeah...boring, but mixing certain chemicals together and coming up with combinations...yes...I used to scare my professor..hehe  so did my middle son Michael...and he scared me at home as he was always trying something...yikes![B)]

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #29 on: 01/10/2006 03:09:43 »
Now we have not even touched cold elements at all yet...hehe

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #30 on: 01/10/2006 05:06:41 »
I would not know one from the other as my science S****S!

Karen

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another_someone

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #31 on: 01/10/2006 11:10:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.
OH that is really cool. thats interesting,! If it burns brighter does that also mean it will burn hotter, and perhaps apply that to powering something when the presence of water comes into play!! I am not sure I phrased that the way I meant it! Answer me first and I will see if that is what I meant, I confused myself!! LOL not hard to do at all!



Burning hotter does not necessarily mean producing more energy, you also have to take into account how long it will burn.

I cannot believe that having to use the energy of combustion to disassociate water will actually provide more energy overall than using free oxygen (even if it is diatomic oxygen) that does not need to use energy to disassociate water; but I can well imagine that the oxygen in water may be more available in some way to the magnesium, and so allow the magnesium to burn faster.



George

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Offline Gaia

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #32 on: 01/10/2006 13:09:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Science is easy.  Now, languages confuse me.  OK, it does not help that we never actually learn formal grammar in school here, so there is a lot about the structure of language that we are missing; but I think the bigger problem is that I have a very visual memory, and I cannot remember sounds.

Geography is OK only insofar as I can remember maps (visual again).  History, I used to have problems at school with (but then there were lost of things I could learn outside school, but got bored with at school), but I always enjoyed history away from school.  Not that good with dates, but am OK with remembering the relationships between events (that was always the problem with school - they tried to teach history as a series of isolated events, rather than a set of interrelated events).



George




Georgie, you may not have learnt formal grammar in school but I did - right down to Greek and Latin roots (in English lessons). But then you never were that keen on formal education - you're much better at 'teach yourself' 'cos you can study what and when you like.

I like the Montessori rational, learning through play!!!

Gaia  xxx
Gaia  xxx

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Offline Karen W.

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Re: Water as a fuel ?
« Reply #33 on: 01/10/2006 18:11:15 »
I do better with hands on too!

Karen

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