Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?

  • 28 Replies
  • 9621 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« on: 27/09/2006 02:21:24 »
Wocha Peeps,

Happy Day to you all.


If there is one thing I am sure of, it is the astounding ability of human ingenuity. Our capacity to imagine a thing, see a problem and then create the reality of that imagination and then solve the riddle, is something which restores my faith in our awesome capability to create.

It was mentioned to me in another thread (actually on another site)that there is no supernatural....all is natural. If that is indeed true, then would it not be then reasonable to assume that ,notwithstanding some form of global appearance of a deity/creator , that we ourselves will one day develop the technology that answers the questions as scientific fact ?

Technology will answer the questions of the Cosmos and the questions of Belief too.

Whajafink ?



I realise that there are aspects of this post which could establish it as yet another  'does god exist ' thread. I urge you please to not take it down that route for there are many well established threads like that here already.

N
e
i
l

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #1 on: 27/09/2006 03:02:59 »
Would we want a definitive answer?

Do we have a definitive question?

Is the answer 42?



George

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #2 on: 27/09/2006 03:58:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Would we want a definitive answer?

I would ?...because I think even a definitive answer would not be absolute !

Do we have a definitive question?

I can think of two that I would like answered which for me..would be good for starters.

1: How did the Universe Begin ?

2:  What is The proof of whether there really is a creator behind all of this with a purpose ! ?


Is the answer 42?

LOL..So long and thanks for all the fish !!




George




Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4586
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #3 on: 27/09/2006 14:13:04 »
As far as I know now, and IMHO, we could never have a final answer, neither scientific nor of another kind.

Because of this:

Let's assume we have that answer. How can I know it's the answer? Because I can be aware of it, because I can perceive it.

If I can perceive it, then I'm not it, I'm something else, who perceive it.

So, I am automatically out of it, it means that truth, that answer, cannot include me, so it cannot be the final answer.

Of course, I don't pretend those reasonings to have any logical basis. Just my present idea and feelings. That idea and feelings, however, also refers to something I have learned in a course.
« Last Edit: 27/09/2006 14:16:44 by lightarrow »

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #4 on: 28/09/2006 23:26:55 »
ALBERTO THANK YOU FOR THIS.

Do you think that if you must question whether the answer is true or not....... means that you must apply that same rationale to any answer at all.

I think I understand what you say that because you are faced with the final answer that therefore you must not be a part of it...but turn it around .....perhaps it's because you ARE in fact a part of the answer that you can in fact perceive it as such......so that it must include you.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #5 on: 29/09/2006 01:53:07 »
OK, I will go with Alberto's answer, but will try to rephrase it a little (I hope in doing so, it does not contradict Alberto's original intention).

We are a part of the universe, not separate from it.

No experiment is valid if the observer cannot separate himself from the experiment.

Thus, to some degree, all experiments we perform that tell us how the universe functions must in some way be partially invalid, and thus the answers are only approximations (insofar as our ability to separate ourselves from the experiment is only an approximation).

One example of this question of separation of the observer from the observed came about in a hypothetical argument I put to a physicist who was trying to explain the faster than light interactions associated with entangled particles, and I posited that the entangled particles need not actually show any faster than light interaction if one made the assumption that the observer was not separate from the experiment:

quote:

The only other possibility I can conceive, and it is one that must be regarded as both a real possibility, but nonetheless one that is for all practical purposes impossible to prove or disprove, is to deny the reality of free will on the part of the experimenters, and assume that every action that the experimenters take is predetermined, and its outcome is similarly predetermined.  The problem with this hypothesis is that if human free will is non-existent, and the outcome of all experiments are predetermined, then the outcome of any experiment to demonstrate the existence of free will is subject to the same distortions as any other experiment.  This then becomes more of a philosophical argument than a practical scientific one, since no science could possibly be undertaken that can prove or disprove the hypothesis.

I don't think the argument comes down to whether an electron in flight can specifically influence a person's brain, since a human brain is for all practical purposes just another collection of protons, neutrons, and electrons (and various other elementary particles).  Thus, the more accurate question is whether in some way all the elementary particles in the universe, including those within the human brain, as well as those in any computer, or anywhere else in the universe, are bound together in such a way as to mutually interact with each other in a predetermined way, and as such to predetermine the result of any experiment that one collection of elementary particles (namely those that form the human brain, the human body, and all the physical ancillary equipment that forms the experiment) performs upon another set of elementary particles (namely the electrons being observed in this experiment).  If all matter within the universe is entangled in some way, then we humans, as a part of this universe, are also entangled with the rest of the universe.







George

*

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4586
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #6 on: 29/09/2006 07:33:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

ALBERTO THANK YOU FOR THIS.

Do you think that if you must question whether the answer is true or not....... means that you must apply that same rationale to any answer at all.

I think I understand what you say that because you are faced with the final answer that therefore you must not be a part of it...but turn it around .....perhaps it's because you ARE in fact a part of the answer that you can in fact perceive it as such......so that it must include you.
Maybe.
For example: no one knows if, scientifically, love really exist, but I know it does, because I feel it, and no scientific or unscientific reasoning could ever convince me of the opposite.

*

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4586
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #7 on: 29/09/2006 07:50:28 »
What another_someone says is very interesting.
So, I would like to go on with this, but in no scientifical way.
Let's look at our (right, e.g.) hand: we can distinguish several different fingers. If every finger were aware, he could say "I'm the index finger, that one is the middle finger..." ecc. But, all together, there is only the hand. No separation. The hand could say "I'm the hand, made of index finger, middle finger, ecc."

You have understood what I want to say: maybe, we think to be different individuals, but, at an higher level of awareness, we are the same thing.

Maybe the same not only among individuals, but also with everything in the universe.

*

Offline moonfire

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4597
  • Can't stand the heat, step away from the fire!
    • View Profile
    • http://www.m2global.com/stormdiamonds
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #8 on: 29/09/2006 09:10:08 »
Very good point...I haven't viewed it like this way before, what insight from George too!!!

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #9 on: 29/09/2006 15:38:34 »
quote:
Originally posted by lightarrow
What another_someone says is very interesting.
So, I would like to go on with this, but in no scientifical way.
Let's look at our (right, e.g.) hand: we can distinguish several different fingers. If every finger were aware, he could say "I'm the index finger, that one is the middle finger..." ecc. But, all together, there is only the hand. No separation. The hand could say "I'm the hand, made of index finger, middle finger, ecc."

You have understood what I want to say: maybe, we think to be different individuals, but, at an higher level of awareness, we are the same thing.

Maybe the same not only among individuals, but also with everything in the universe.



I shall just give a brief response because I only have a few moments right now.

I have no problem with your analysis of fingers and hands, what i do have a problem with is your extension to the idea of a larger/higher organism that is self aware.  That a finger is both separate and yet one with the complete hand is totally valid, but as far as we are aware, neither finger nor hand is self-aware, that is a particular function of complete human beings, and is not necessarily a function of all other entities of whatever scale.



George

*

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4586
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #10 on: 30/09/2006 12:59:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

I have no problem with your analysis of fingers and hands, what i do have a problem with is your extension to the idea of a larger/higher organism that is self aware.  That a finger is both separate and yet one with the complete hand is totally valid, but as far as we are aware, neither finger nor hand is self-aware, that is a particular function of complete human beings, and is not necessarily a function of all other entities of whatever scale.
I'm sorry another_someone, but I don't understand what you want to say.
What I wanted to mean is that, as an analogy, maybe we individual human beings (and, maybe, all beings and things in the universe) are part of a greater being, as fingers are part of a hand, which is part of a human being...

*

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • 31660
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #11 on: 30/09/2006 15:27:07 »
This is an interesting topic!

Karen

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

*

Offline otis01

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 26
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #12 on: 30/09/2006 19:03:15 »
If a wave was capable of consciousness, it would believe it is separate from the ocean. It would say "I am this wave. Those are other waves that are different and separate from me." But this isn't true.

 The wave Is the ocean. Even the notion of individual oceans is an illusion. There can only be One ocean- humans divided it up so as to comprehend its vastness. 7 oceans are an illusion, just as individual consciousness is only an illusion. Individual consciousness was created much for the same reason we have divided this Earth into nations, waters into oceans, gulfs, lakes, rivers, and streams; they were created so we are not overwhelmed by their vastness. Our individual consciousness must be only a part of a whole consciousness; the infinite ocean of consciousness. It is much too vast for us to yet understand, so it was divided.

We are each but a wave of consciousness in the Ocean of consciousness.
 

*

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4586
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #13 on: 30/09/2006 19:31:52 »
Are you sure to be only 13 y.o.? I would have thought you are at least 130!
Thank you very much for what you said.
« Last Edit: 30/09/2006 19:32:53 by lightarrow »

*

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • 31660
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #14 on: 30/09/2006 20:59:36 »
Ditto That! He very bright and this was a very nice post and I agree with the thoughts!

Karen

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

*

Offline otis01

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 26
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #15 on: 30/09/2006 21:33:13 »
My inside joke has come to an end: I must admit that I am not 13. When I first registered onto the website, I must have entered the wrong age. I was not aware of it until about a week ago when 2 other members(Karen W. being one of them) commented on one of my posts. Karen and Moonfire thought my comments to seem youthful and innocent and noticed I was listed as 13: I enjoyed a very long laugh. It felt good to be percieved young and innocent. Either way I am actually 30. Still young.

 What's its matter though, Time itself is only as real as the individual oceans are. How can an individual day really exist? It is only a matter of perspective. The Sun knows no night and day.
 

*

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • 31660
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #16 on: 30/09/2006 21:38:23 »
Thanks for the heads up, I am glad to meet you youg man, I am still old enough to be your Mama! Barely that is!! LOL Young, Yes, Innocent no comment, Eh?

Karen

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

*

Offline otis01

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 26
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #17 on: 30/09/2006 22:42:52 »
In innocence I was born, and in innocence I shall return.. However, at this point I am still quite inbetween.
 

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #18 on: 30/09/2006 23:00:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by lightarrow
I'm sorry another_someone, but I don't understand what you want to say.
What I wanted to mean is that, as an analogy, maybe we individual human beings (and, maybe, all beings and things in the universe) are part of a greater being, as fingers are part of a hand, which is part of a human being...


What I was trying to say was that while I agree that we are connected to everything else, and as such me would rightly be regarded as part of a single entity with everything else, the problem I have is when you start talking about this 'greater entity' actually being self-aware, or being a sentient being of some sort (ofcourse, we can start asking what sentience is in the first place – but I am merely wary of what seems to me to be an anthropomorphism).

It was your use of the phrase “a higher level of awareness” that concerned me.  If you had merely said “at a higher level”, and had left out the word “awareness”, then I would not have had a problem.



George

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #19 on: 30/09/2006 23:02:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by otis01

In innocence I was born, and in innocence I shall return.. However, at this point I am still quite inbetween.



Clearly not a Catholic then – you do not believe in 'original sin'. [}:)]



George
« Last Edit: 30/09/2006 23:02:24 by another_someone »

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #20 on: 30/09/2006 23:29:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by otis01
If a wave was capable of consciousness, it would believe it is separate from the ocean. It would say "I am this wave. Those are other waves that are different and separate from me." But this isn't true.


I would agree with this as far as it goes..

quote:

 The wave Is the ocean. Even the notion of individual oceans is an illusion. There can only be One ocean- humans divided it up so as to comprehend its vastness. 7 oceans are an illusion, just as individual consciousness is only an illusion. Individual consciousness was created much for the same reason we have divided this Earth into nations, waters into oceans, gulfs, lakes, rivers, and streams; they were created so we are not overwhelmed by their vastness. Our individual consciousness must be only a part of a whole consciousness; the infinite ocean of consciousness. It is much too vast for us to yet understand, so it was divided.

We are each but a wave of consciousness in the Ocean of consciousness.



I would disagree on several levels, although some of them may be more semantic than substantial, whereas others I would disagree on the underlying substance.

A wave is not the whole ocean, even though it is in many ways merely an arbitrary subdivision of the ocean.  To go back to Alberto's analogy between the finger and the hand, I have 4 fingers and a thumb on one hand (and similar on the other – lest you think I only have a single hand), and while each of those fingers are a part of the whole hand, the finger is not itself the same as the hand.

Similarly, while all the oceans collectively form a total body of water, the single oceans do exist even if they are not totally separate and independent of each other (just as a husband and wife remain two separate people, even as they may form a part of the whole marriage).

The above are the semantic issues.  Now for the substantive:

You suggest that “Our individual consciousness must be only a part of a whole consciousness”, and I would argue that neither from a scientific nor a philosophical perspective can there be a single whole conciousness.  From a scientific perspective, we have no evidence that there is even a conciousness or self-awareness (I am assuming that conciousness and self awareness, if not wholly synonyms, are at least mutually requisite, so that one may not exist without the other) that a whole galaxy has of itself, but from a philosophical perspective, one cannot discount the possibility that a galaxy might be self-aware, because there are many other galaxies.  From the perspective of a whole universe, assuming that no other universe exists, then I cannot see how, even at a philosophical level, one can conceive of the entire universe having any self awareness.  I say this because one can only be aware of oneself in relation to something else, and if there is no other thing, then there can be no basis for an identification of a self.



George

*

Offline otis01

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 26
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #21 on: 01/10/2006 01:53:30 »
You cannot show me a measure of Love, yet I see it everywhere. Nothing that matters here can be proven; not by science, nor philosophy, nor religion.

 You are correct: my view right now cannot be proven, and quite possibly isn't possible. Even I don't trust anything, including this view, I believe at any particular moment; Every belief I have eventually is encompassed by a much broader perspective of belief, or the original belief is completely shattered. I expect that tomorrow's experiences will fully change everything again.

 

*

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • 31660
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #22 on: 01/10/2006 02:05:18 »
Life is a constant evolving movement, every thing I take in each day changes something I think and or believe! I do agree with this also..

Karen

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

*

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #23 on: 01/10/2006 11:36:20 »
I believe that we may well be able to discover and quantify all the laws of physics that affect our lives now and did so from the far past to the far future but that does not meen that they will be the totality of the laws of physics.

I also believe that we may well be able to plot the course of events that set these laws of physics at the values they have, analyse the course that has lead us to the current moment, anf predict with a good accuracy what is likely to happen in the future

However as has already been pointed out very clearly the laws of physics are only the matrix of substance within which we live our lives.  The details of our individual lives are obviously far more important to us than the matrix on which they exist and very rightly so.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

*

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 20602
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #24 on: 02/10/2006 21:31:48 »
I too agree that assuming we don't wipe ourselves out or get wiped out, that we will indeed discover the truth behind it all........or almost all !!....and I of course agree that what we do with our lives is far more important.....but to discover the very nature of existence is the fundamental foundation.

It just occurred to me that perhaps there's some paradox here.....would it not be an almost unequivocally almighty revelation that paradoxically, it is us who created the universe by seeking out the answers to it in the first place ?...and then one day...we'll find that at the instant we discover the final solution to the discovery of how the universe was created , that. that is in fact the very spark that started it... (hmmm..ok....makes no sense at all eh ?...comprendez ?...)

Ouch...my headache is back !!...and i realise that it's nonsense !!...but...go ahead...berate away !!!!

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 02/10/2006 21:33:11 by neilep »
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #25 on: 08/10/2006 00:55:53 »
OK, while answering something on the God thread, I looked up the following which I think will also be pertinent here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
quote:

In mathematical logic, Gödel's incompleteness theorems are two theorems about the limits of formal systems, proved by Kurt Gödel in 1931.


Gödel's first incompleteness theorem is perhaps the most celebrated result in mathematical logic. It states that
    For any consistent formal theory that proves basic arithmetical truths, it is possible to construct an arithmetical statement that is true 1 but not provable in the theory. That is, any theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete.



Gödel demonstrated the incompleteness of a theory of arithmetic, but it is clear that the demonstration could be given for any theory and language of a certain expressiveness.



Thus it follows scientific theory cannot be both complete and consistent.  If science seeks to be consistent, then it must always remain in some way incomplete.



George
« Last Edit: 08/10/2006 01:01:23 by another_someone »

*

Offline Mjhavok

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 468
    • View Profile
    • http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #26 on: 10/10/2006 00:39:54 »
Are you talking about a specific scientific theory or the scientific method?

-Steven
Steven
_______________________________________________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

*

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #27 on: 10/10/2006 14:29:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mjhavok
Are you talking about a specific scientific theory or the scientific method?

-Steven



I am talking about any supposedly complete model (i.e. the totality of all scientific theory).

In other words, one can use scientific method to create a model (or theory) to answer any particular question, but what you cannot do is use it to create a model to answer every conceivable question.



George
« Last Edit: 10/10/2006 14:31:39 by another_someone »

*

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 4586
    • View Profile
Re: Will Technology Discover The Answers To It All ?
« Reply #28 on: 10/10/2006 19:59:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

What I was trying to say was that while I agree that we are connected to everything else, and as such me would rightly be regarded as part of a single entity with everything else, the problem I have is when you start talking about this 'greater entity' actually being self-aware, or being a sentient being of some sort (ofcourse, we can start asking what sentience is in the first place – but I am merely wary of what seems to me to be an anthropomorphism).

It was your use of the phrase “a higher level of awareness” that concerned me.  If you had merely said “at a higher level”, and had left out the word “awareness”, then I would not have had a problem.
What is awareness? Good question, isnt'it? I often ask to me this question, because I find it extremely interesting.

If I don't know what awareness is, how can I define an "higher level of awareness"? Clearly we are using only our intuitions here.

The concept of "self" is very misterious too. What is it? Where is it? Does it necessarily have to be located somwhere inside our body? Maybe not. In this case something who is me and you and many others or everybody, doesn't necessarily have to live inside somebody or something. What is self or awareness? To make an analogy (not a good analogy, however) a computer software is not the hardware; the software exist even in the absence of any hardware at all. A computer program can also be made of many others sub-programs.

Awareness as well, could be made of many others sub-awareness, each of which is located in a specific place (our bodies, for example).

When you say that your fingers are not your hand, I agree with you. But...I also don't agree with you.
I believe it depends on the point of view. Do you know the "EPR paradox"? Do you know how Bohr solved it? Saying that the two distant "entangled" measurements are, actually, only one!
Furthermore, the same thing that has a shape here, can have another shape there (think about space-distortion).

I believe,as otis01 said, that we have created every separation between this and that.
"A newborn doesn't perceive any separation...till the moment he is detached from his mother's right breast... and can find comfort in the left breast..."

I think otis01 knows that.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2006 20:01:57 by lightarrow »