Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?

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Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #150 on: 01/03/2015 17:17:29 »
So is it a yes the photon does lose all its energy at infinity or a no?
It's a no. The ascending photon doesn't lose any energy. It takes energy to lift you up, so the selfsame E=hf photon appears to have lost energy, when in fact, you've gained it. It's similar to what happens in gravity-free space when you accelerate away from a light source.

As to whether the CMBR photons have lost energy is another matter. I think the answer is no, but I can't be so confident about that. Things like the big bang and the early universe are tricky. In comparison, gravity is straightforward. Or ought to be.   

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #151 on: 01/03/2015 17:28:17 »
Get confused reading this David, are you associating a photon with a notes frequency? Then stating that dark energy interact with it? The note solely, or both note and photon? If you're thinking of gravitational red/blueshifts, assuming that dark energy interact through that, then that is observer dependent, and not about a photon 'energy'  intrinsically, as far as I know?

"This reduction in the frequency you hear will become closer and closer to zero though (meaning the note doesn't appear to get much flatter at all) and the change will soon become impossible to measure - the strongest effect is deep down in the well, but once out in deep space you are in practical terms no longer in that well, even though you technically still are.

However, the frequency could still be reduced to zero over infinite distance because of dark energy and the expansion of space."
=

Let us assume that dark energy 'pushes' material bodies away from each other 'gravitationally'. Either you then have to define it to only existing outside/between galaxies, or explain how this new source of gravity interact inside solar systems, galaxies with the one we're accustomed to define. So now we have a unknown source of gravitation between galaxies, defining a redshift. But then it's not about a 'expanding space', it's just assembly's of 'bodies' separating from each other in a vacuum, in which case the redshift from a expansion becomes observer dependent again. But it leaves us to explain why this dark energy won't interact inside galaxies, solar systems etc, if so. Because that gravitational influence should be measurable. If we define the universe as infinite then it is a possible mechanism, although? Why only in between?

(also, such a behavior would separate a accelerating expansion from a inflations, that is unless we assume a vacuum to 'preexist', which is a interesting idea. You could then turn it around to a vacuum being the result of the distribution of matter, starting as some regime of 'temperature/energy'. Still needing it to be diffused though, linking itself into a 'common universe' becoming a 'inflationary period', as the cosmic 'light-sphere of age' we observe is presumed to be found no matter where you go)

The idea behind it, as I understand it, is that it is 'spread out' and 'diffused' everywhere, only becoming a 'strong negative force' over large distances counteracting gravity. Either as some wave building up from smaller 'pushing' galaxies apart, or as I think about it, as some 'upwelling' in each 'point' of a vacuum. If it was as a wave, you need to explain how it can 'push away' in all directions, using a 'upwelling' makes it a little easier to think about it, but not much :)
« Last Edit: 01/03/2015 19:05:37 by yor_on »
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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #152 on: 01/03/2015 20:34:42 »
Get confused reading this David, are you associating a photon with a notes frequency? Then stating that dark energy interact with it? The note solely, or both note and photon? If you're thinking of gravitational red/blueshifts, assuming that dark energy interact through that, then that is observer dependent, and not about a photon 'energy'  intrinsically, as far as I know?

I mentioned dark energy solely because I think that's were the confusion comes from - we see that the radiation from the big bang is of lower frequency than it must have set out with, and we predict that it will continue to be measured as having progressively lower energy over tens of billions of years to come, and infinite expansion would lead to infinite energy loss. This idea about photons losing energy can then potentially get tangled up in people's minds when they think about photons climbing out of gravity wells too, thereby leading to them thinking there is loss of enegy there as well, but there isn't - it isn't possible to change a frequency of anything if it travels between two points which remain a constant distance apart (unless they're both accelerating, or you lengthen the communication path in some other way or ramp up some other delay mechanism within it), and the energy of light is entirely wrapped up in its frequency, so it cannot be losing any energy if the frequency is unchanged. All that actually changes is the frequency that is produced when a device operates at different depths in a gravity well - the deeper it is, the lower the generated frequency will be, though from the point of view of the device it is producing exactly the same frequency on each occasion, and any device designed to measure the frequency locally would agree with it.

I used the musical note example because it allows you to see the movement of the string from far away and to see the frequency of the actual oscillation that produced the note. The situation is the same with sound and photon frequency, so it's a useful parallel. The note will get quieter over distance just as a beam of light will spread out and become dimmer, but the frequency is a constant in each case. The big difference is that sound travels more slowly, but we get the same apparent frequency reduction with it over the same change in altitude within the gravity well because the effect is entirely driven by time dilation. If we use an analogue radio communication to send the sound up from ground level to the top of the towerblock at the speed of light we will have the exact same reduction in the frequency of the note measured up there. (With a digital radio communication though, we would not hear the note flatten, but there would be occasional breaks in the stream instead.)

The other case worth thinking about is the light escaping from a black hole. If it comes from just outside the event horizon, there are different scenarios to consider which relate to how it is produced. If it comes from something that is stationary relative to the event horizon, time dilation will be so extreme that the photon will be generated at such a low frequency that I don't know if it would even be classed as a radio wave, but if you viewed it from where it was produced you would see it as light. By the time that photon has climbed up into deep space, it would be detected as having the extremely low frequency that it was actually produced with. Alternatively, if the photon came from some object that was racing into the black hole, and if it (the photon) was released just outside the event horizon, time dilation would not be so severe [take this bit with a pinch of salt - I'm taking that on trust from leading scientists in TV documentaries, but they often simplify the truth out of things and end up misleading people instead of informing them], so the light could be produced at a higher frequency, but the object's movement inwards during the production of the photon would spread the photon out and give it no higher effective frequency than the photon released from a stationary object hovering just outside the event horizon.

If we want to try releasing a photon from the event horizon itself, then an object suspended there would be completely frozen in time and could not produce a photon of greater frequency than zero, but an object falling in still could [repeat dose of a pinch of salt here]. In this case, the photon is going to have a frequency, but it will again be spread out, and either it will have the back end ripped into the black hole (thereby producing an effective frequency of zero) or the photon may just escape with next to no frequency, and it will be impossible to detect by the time it has reached deep space.

If a photon is released any distance inside the event horizon, it's impossible for it to be released from a stationary object, so there's only one case to consider, that being that it is being emitted from an object which is moving deeper into the black hole. In this case, the photon may be produced at a reasonable frequency [more salt required here], but it will be dragged backwards into the black hole and will therefore have no effective frequency at all from the point of view of an outside observer.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #153 on: 02/03/2015 15:16:59 »
It depends. Discussing event horizons, apparent or not, is a headache. If we keep it simple it's just a matter of frames of reference, each 'frame' observing the other using its own clock and ruler. Each frame being correct in its view of a universe. If you define 'c' as equivalent to your local 'clock' then there is nowhere 'time freezes up' for you. and that goes for both frames of reference.
=

I split the idea of lights duality from this. Using a field(s) is a very simple idea actually, naively, ignoring observer dependencies, but it wrecks havoc with our ideas of a propagation, unless you presume a wave universe as where this is coming from. Doing so you now place the idea of a quanta as a secondary effect, which it is not, if you consider it in terms of scaling 'down under'. Myself I define this universe from 'quanta', waves and a duality being a complementary description. Waves was the first one we found, and it explained a lot to us, then Einstein had the temerity to come and destroy it (black body radiation:)
=

It is possible to think of it this way, maybe? If there is discrete quanta, then they are not 'observer dependent', and what we define as observer dependent, when it comes to a clock and ruler, then becomes a result of the scales we use. That doesn't state that they are illusions. A illusion should be something you don't find to work, ah well, changing frame of reference to what you measured as being 'different' you then will be 'synchronized' with it :) So was it illusionary? In terms of your life span, not locally it was, but 'unifying the container' it becomes so. So strictly speaking, where was it you said you lived?

you only need waves when you want to connect it into what I call a 'commonly agreed on universe', that's also a container and a idea of something more needed to 'unify it'. Locally defined quanta works just fine I think. As do probability and statistics.
=

A simple definition of the difference might be to think of a wave universe versus a 'quanta universe'. That's two different 'directions' in my mind. One is waves and light propagating in a container. The other is scaling.
=

the question is how to get those two to agree with each other, scaling versus a container. You need something describing what we see. I think we will find it, but it will build on scaling.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2015 16:57:47 by yor_on »
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #154 on: 03/03/2015 15:41:26 »
maybe photonists soon will be selling sneakoil?
Yet more experimentally factual and effective than the "snakeoil" you're peddling.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #155 on: 03/03/2015 15:45:01 »
i am a college fall out, my theory is not. no?
It might have been a wise move if you had stayed in college.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Robbo

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #156 on: 07/03/2015 18:57:12 »
this forum deleted some of my postings

maybe soon will ban my account

i recorded everything i posted

find true science at fuckedscience.com

if you see me here no more

I joined this forum last week and I have to say the most amazing thing I've encountered thus far aren't the dark mysteries of a black hole, or indeed the jaw-drop lunacy of Quantum Mechanics ... it is this thread.
I have a sports forum and so I'm well used to all types of contributor that a forum attracts - from the curious, to the arrogant, to the downright ignorant and to the disgustingly enlightened, all of whom just love to express their opinion in true Orwellian style.'

And with that thought sloshing around in my head, it reminded me of something my father once told me, 'You can deal with politicians, you can deal with bigots, you can deal with criminals and even terrorists but you cannot deal with an idiot'

This thread pays testament to the endless patience a lot of you guys have displayed while dealing with someone who's either being deliberately obtuse, or is just plain incapable of assimilating a whole slew of lucid clarifications that you guys have been kind enough to post in the somewhat vain hope of helping him.
At times, his posts have been disrespectful, impolite and on many occasions, inappropriately dismissive.
A lot of you guys deserve a virtual medal for such courtesy because I think most people would have reacted quite quickly to his attitude.
I apologise if I've offended anybody, it wasn't my intent - I was merely making an observation.
I'm extremely impressed with such a tolerant bunch of guys .. if only my forum could boast such a demographic :/
« Last Edit: 07/03/2015 19:04:15 by Robbo »
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #157 on: 07/03/2015 21:35:30 »
break my legs if you want to, i am not leaving this place.
It might have been more accurate to say: "I am not voluntarily leaving this place. Time will tell as to the alternate remedy.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2015 21:37:35 by Ethos_ »
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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #158 on: 15/03/2015 08:16:41 »
it was a long discussing, maybe we should make sure if photon is a real thing or not now.

should we start a poll?


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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #159 on: 16/03/2015 00:33:22 »
Just look around you. Is it dark?

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #160 on: 16/03/2015 01:35:40 »
Just look around you. Is it dark?
There is none so blind as he who will not see.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #161 on: 17/03/2015 19:18:15 »
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.

how could electron emits photons? how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?

if photon is a real thing, when it passes water, it slows down, lose some energy, than comes out water, how could it gain energy and move faster?

energy exchange? how?

what's the difference between a green photon and a red photon? red light vibrates 4.2X10^14 times per second, it that mean red photon passes a single point 4.2x10^14 times? an electron emits 4.2x10^14 photons per second?

if light is gravitational wave produced by exited atoms, it is a force pause that acts on any matter on the way/field.

if a matter vibrates, its gravitational force vibrates, propagates at c.

thoughts?

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #162 on: 17/03/2015 20:00:35 »
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.

how could electron emits photons? how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?

This is a good question. I don't know exactly how this works, and I am not entirely satisfied with any of the answers I have heard on this one yet...

if photon is a real thing, when it passes water, it slows down, lose some energy, than comes out water, how could it gain energy and move faster?

Because the photon has zero rest mass its energy and speed are unrelated. It does not lose energy as it slows down, or when it speeds back up. The energy is related to the frequency of the photon which is unchanged by this interaction.


what's the difference between a green photon and a red photon? red light vibrates 4.2X10^14 times per second, it that mean red photon passes a single point 4.2x10^14 times? an electron emits 4.2x10^14 photons per second?


No, electrons do not emit 4.2x10^14 photons per second. This is the frequency of the  electromagnetic wave associated with the photon.

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Offline evan_au

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #163 on: 17/03/2015 20:48:03 »
Quote from: jccc
how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?
An electron (or proton) does not "carry" any photons when it is traveling through free space.
  • However, an electron (or proton) which is accelerated by some means does emit electromagnetic radiation (photons).
  • So you do not want to be in the tunnel of the LHC when the beam is on, because the acceleration of the protons to bend them around in a circle emits intense X-Rays which would not be therapeutic.
  • Similarly, a hot plasma in the Sun or in a hydrogen fusion reactor consists of protons and electrons flying around separately, at high velocity. However, if an electron approaches a proton, the electric field between them accelerates the electron, changing it's speed & direction and emitting photons. But because the speed is so high (due to high temperature), the proton can't hold on to the electron, and they continue their separate ways. 

In empty space, an electron and proton which are far apart (physicists say "at infinity") will be attracted to each other and approach. The electron is likely to be captured by the proton, forming a hydrogen atom.
  • The electron could fall straight to the lowest level (n=1), emitting a single ultraviolet photon with a wavelength of 91.2 nm. This is part of the Lyman series. Look at the line in the table labelled with "∞".
  • Or, the electron could fall into the third-lowest level (n=3), emitting a single infra-red photon with a wavelength of 820nm (Paschen Series). This could be followed by a cascade down to the second level (n=2, Balmer Series), emitting a single red photon of 656nm. This could then fall to the lowest level (n=1), emitting an ultraviolet photon of 121nm (from the Lyman series).
  • Note that the total energy of the 3 photons is the same as the energy of the single photon emitted when the electron falls straight to the ground state.
  • There are an infinite number of orbitals that the electron could fall into. Each one has its own characteristic energy level, and will emit a photon of a specific frequency and energy when transitioning to another level (although many of the energy levels are so close together that you can't easily distinguish them). This shows up in the spectrum of a Hydrogen atom, which has an infinite number of lines in it. 
So in theory, you could have an electron emitting a huge ("infinite") number of photons, each of very long wavelength as it falls towards the proton. But the total energy of all these photons is the same as a 91.2nm photon (ie energy is conserved).
« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 10:21:53 by evan_au »

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #164 on: 17/03/2015 21:53:47 »
if you make a 3 d model of an atom, a center piece, few energy levels, orbital shells, and an electron, you need a few legs to support the energy levels, or orbitals, you need something to support the electron, so everything has its position.

now you only have 1 proton and 1 electron, how you build that atom as science said?

how a photon interacts with an atom? contact act? force act? which particle act with photon? what's the mechanism?

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #165 on: 17/03/2015 22:26:07 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?


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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #166 on: 19/03/2015 05:47:37 »
it was a long discussing, maybe we should make sure if photon is a real thing or not now.

should we start a poll?
Poll on what? If its a poll about who wants you to be here then that's simple. Nobody wants you to be here.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #167 on: 19/03/2015 06:05:22 »
Quote from: jccc
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.
So what? Those are independent laws of nature except for conservation of matter. There is no such law. Relativity proved that to be wrong. Conservation of charge cannot be derived from conservation of energy.

Why do you waste space and people's time with this nonsense?

Quote from: jccc
how could electron emits photons?
Study quantum mechanics, particle physics and field theory and you'll learn how.

Quote from: jccc
how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?
False notion. But to be expected from jccc.

Quote from: jccc
what's the difference between a green photon and a red photon? red light vibrates 4.2X10^14 times per second, it that mean red photon passes a single point 4.2x10^14 times? an electron emits 4.2x10^14 photons per second?
Of course not. The energy and momentum is a function of frequency. That's part of its meaning. Another part is that it's related to wavelength and that's part of its meaning, i.e. wave properties. To understand the last  part then one has to understand what a phasor is, and you don't know what that is because you keep ignoring everyone's suggestion to study math and physics. The phasor can be thought of as a rotating arrow and that rotating arrow can be used to visualize how wave functions add up.  Feynman does this in his book QED (although he doesn't tell the reader that he's talking about phasors.

Quote from: jccc
if light is gravitational wave...
Utter garbage!

Quote from: jccc
thoughts?
Yes. Please leave us in peace.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #168 on: 19/03/2015 12:31:25 »
if you make a 3 d model of an atom, a center piece, few energy levels, orbital shells, and an electron, you need a few legs to support the energy levels, or orbitals, you need something to support the electron, so everything has its position.

now you only have 1 proton and 1 electron, how you build that atom as science said?

how a photon interacts with an atom? contact act? force act? which particle act with photon? what's the mechanism?

debunk this?

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #169 on: 19/03/2015 12:32:35 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

and this.

please don't delete my comment again, is this an open forum?

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #170 on: 19/03/2015 12:43:37 »
maybe photonists soon will be selling sneakoil?
Yet more experimentally factual and effective than the "snakeoil" you're peddling.

this is mainstream science  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut7LznNFs0A

this is my science  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzKhCER-npQ

you be the judge.

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Offline jccc

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #172 on: 20/03/2015 03:51:19 »
he has a diamond ring on his right arm!

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Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #173 on: 20/03/2015 17:45:10 »
This is a good question. I don't know exactly how this works, and I am not entirely satisfied with any of the answers I have heard on this one yet...
Remember that you can make an electron (and a positron) out of a photon in pair production. Draw a circle on a piece of paper to emulate the electron, then without lifting your pen, draw another circle on top of the first, and another, and another. You are emulating electron spin. Now think about Compton scattering wherein the electron absorbs part of the photon, and as a result, moves. To emulate the moving electron with a smaller Compton wavelength draw an incomplete circle, then without lifting your pen, draw another incomplete circle, and another, and another.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #174 on: 20/03/2015 20:22:36 »
if you don't believe virgin can give birth, how could you believe electron able to emit photon?

all things must have precise mechanism, that's how physics law works.

can you build a car with 90% parts? write a program with 90% codes?

fundamental physics MUST be 100% accurate.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #175 on: 20/03/2015 23:55:33 »
connect a charged little ball and wall with a spring, knock the ball so it vibrates. we can measure the em wave strength and frequency.

in atom world, electron and nucleus bound by em force, proton attracts electron, fluid ball repel electron, balanced at radius. when force applied, em wave produced.

no need any medium, no particle/photon emitted.

thoughts?

   

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #176 on: 21/03/2015 06:46:30 »
if matter's compressibility is 1/10^10, atom's compressibility is less than 1/10^10.

which means electron cannot be pushed into atom radius. so it is impossible for an electron to move toward nucleus, electron can only move on the surface of the atom ball, or away from atom radius.

seems to me all fit observation.

thoughts?

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #177 on: 24/03/2015 23:12:46 »
ahem? on what?
Jccc, I'm sure you have your own unique way of looking at the universe. And you don't want people to destroy it, because you feel it has a elegance and a importance, even when found partially wrong. But you really need to preresent what it builds on, to make people give you the criticism you need to refine it.
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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #178 on: 14/04/2015 05:27:58 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

how do you think? anything wrong with logic?

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #179 on: 14/04/2015 13:36:40 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

how do you think? anything wrong with logic?
Depends upon how the "logic" was constructed. Logic built only from intuition invites error. Only when logic is built upon observable evidence can it be considered "Logical".
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #180 on: 14/04/2015 16:00:48 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

how do you think? anything wrong with logic?
Depends upon how the "logic" was constructed. Logic built only from intuition invites error. Only when logic is built upon observable evidence can it be considered "Logical".

such as photon emitting? orbital changing? energy exchanging?

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #181 on: 16/04/2015 14:38:42 »
charges, proton and electron, are the simplest machine. with no moving parts, able to work/interact at distance/without to touch. 

from charges, atoms able to from, from atoms, matters able to form. charges made chemical bounding, magnetic, gravity, light able to exist.

but how much we know about charges? is electron really fly around proton to form hydrogen atom?

if gravity becomes 1000 time stronger, can the moon still circling us? can the moon change orbit and release photons?

please help me to understand, please don't show me links, show me the logic/principle. 1 proton and 1 electron, how is hydrogen atom formed???


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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #182 on: 03/06/2015 22:03:40 »
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.

how could electron emits photons? how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?

This is a good question. I don't know exactly how this works, and I am not entirely satisfied with any of the answers I have heard on this one yet...



how's going?

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #183 on: 03/06/2015 22:11:59 »
The larger issue is if an electron captures a photon then what velocity does the photon have? It is either orbiting the electron or it slows down. Another biggy is if the photon has no charge then how could an electron capture it in the first place? Isn't it then as likely to be captured by a proton or neutron?

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #184 on: 04/06/2015 01:18:09 »
I don't think it's that the electron captures the photon. The whole atom captures the photon, and the whole atom is in a higher energy state. It's just easier to talk about electrons changing energy levels, even though the electron's energy level is meaningless without a nucleus for it to interact with.

A good thing to remember though, is that this is only a model of how atoms can absorb and emit photons. It is great for predicting the energies involved, but it doesn't necessarily explain what is actually going on. Quantum electrodynamics is another model (group of models) that deals with that--but unfortunately, I don't know much about QED, and won't try to explain it.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #185 on: 04/06/2015 04:01:51 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The larger issue is if an electron captures a photon then what velocity does the photon have?
An electron cannot capture a photon. That'd make no sense in terms of quantum mechanics. It's the system of the nucleus and electron, i.e. the atom that captures it. The energy goes from the kinetic energy of the photon to the potential energy of the electron/nucleus system. In any case whenever a photon exists its moving with the speed c.

Quote from: jeffreyH
It is either orbiting the electron or it slows down.
Not at all. There's no reason to think such a thing. You're trying to think of these things in classical terms when you have to think it quantum mechanical terms.

Quote from: jeffreyH
Another biggy is if the photon has no charge then how could an electron capture it in the first place?
The electron doesn't capture the photon. The atom does.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #186 on: 04/06/2015 04:32:11 »
isn't in solar cell electrons capture photons to produce current?

so photon hits electron to produce current? point impact? isn't the theory won a nobel?

what if photon hits proton? will proton jumps out?     

what is electron/nucleus system? you invented? what's the structure? the mechanism?




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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #187 on: 04/06/2015 14:33:29 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The larger issue is if an electron captures a photon then what velocity does the photon have?
An electron cannot capture a photon. That'd make no sense in terms of quantum mechanics. It's the system of the nucleus and electron, i.e. the atom that captures it. The energy goes from the kinetic energy of the photon to the potential energy of the electron/nucleus system. In any case whenever a photon exists its moving with the speed c.

Quote from: jeffreyH
It is either orbiting the electron or it slows down.
Not at all. There's no reason to think such a thing. You're trying to think of these things in classical terms when you have to think it quantum mechanical terms.

Quote from: jeffreyH
Another biggy is if the photon has no charge then how could an electron capture it in the first place?
The electron doesn't capture the photon. The atom does.

I know zip about quantum mechanics so I'll shut up now. lol

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #188 on: 04/06/2015 15:26:39 »
if there is a fruit fight, i'm in.

I have taken on board what two fellow members have said. They are very knowledgeable. There is no fight. I can even understand why they said what they said. It is called learning. You might like to try it some time.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #189 on: 04/06/2015 15:59:30 »
isn't in solar cell electrons capture photons to produce current?

so photon hits electron to produce current? point impact? isn't the theory won a nobel?

what if photon hits proton? will proton jumps out?     

what is electron/nucleus system? you invented? what's the structure? the mechanism?

Solar cells can operate by many different mechanisms, base on what they are made of and how they are constructed. The easiest way to think about it is:

A photon is absorbed by the solar panel. The energy of that photon increases the potential energy of an electron (1-2; promotes the electron to a higher energy level/band). This energy level is high enough that the electron can relax into the wire (3), go around the circuit, and end up back where it started (4). This is an overly simplistic model, but I think it gets the point across.
     1                                   2                                3                                     4
______                        ___e___                     ________                        ________
                 
              --------                          -------                          ---e---->                             -----------

__e__                         _______                      ________                       ___e____
« Last Edit: 04/06/2015 16:03:43 by chiralSPO »

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #190 on: 05/06/2015 06:29:40 »
how solar panel absorb photon? impact? em wave?

what energy photon carries? zero mass no momentum?

how electron increase energy? move faster? orbit higher?

what is energy level/band?

how electron relax?

Thanks and good morning!

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #191 on: 06/06/2015 18:04:55 »
how solar panel absorb photon? impact? em wave?
Easiest to think of it as an electromagnetic interaction. The electric field of the photon can push the electron into a higher energy level if it (the photon) has the right amount of energy.

what energy photon carries? zero mass no momentum?
a photon carries energy that is propotional to its frequency E = hv a photon has no rest mass, but it has momentum that is also proportional to its frequency p = hv/c

how electron increase energy? move faster? orbit higher?

Both(ish). There can be an increase in potential energy (analogous to orbiting higher) and/or an increase in momentum (like moving faster)

what is energy level/band?

In crystalline bulk materials like semiconductors and conductors (many of) the atomic energy levels of all the component atoms merge into energy bands that span the entire crystal (near complete delocalization of the electrons). The energy bands are defined by the potential energy of the electrons that occupy them.

how electron relax?

This means they fall down from a high energy level into a lower one.

Thanks and good morning!

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #192 on: 06/06/2015 18:42:00 »
Thanks for the answers. more questions if you don't mind.

photon has no charge, how could it produce em field?

if photon is a particle traveling at c in a straight line, how can it has frequency? is the photon vibrating in space?

is electron orbiting all the time? is a hydrogen atom has 2 d or 3 d orbital?

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #193 on: 06/06/2015 19:52:02 »
a photon is neutral but it has an electric field that oscilates between negative and positive at a specific frequency (the average is zero) and this is the frequency that determines the energy of the photon.

for the last time: atoms are definitely 3D, not 2D! the probability densities of orbitals are 3D, though one could argue that the orbital itself (the wave function) is higher dimensional, because it is based on complex numbers.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #194 on: 06/06/2015 20:10:26 »
a photon is neutral but it has an electric field that oscilates between negative and positive at a specific frequency (the average is zero) and this is the frequency that determines the energy of the photon.

for the last time: atoms are definitely 3D, not 2D! the probability densities of orbitals are 3D, though one could argue that the orbital itself (the wave function) is higher dimensional, because it is based on complex numbers.

neutral photon has an electric field?

what propability density? the only propability is proton attracting electron according to Coulomb's law.

what wave function? what is making waves? how?

we are discussing science right? not imagination, not assumption.

Thanks

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #195 on: 06/06/2015 23:04:44 »
this is science. an electron behaves like a wave. probability density is the probability of finding an electron (in this instance) in a particular region of space.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #196 on: 06/06/2015 23:47:45 »
photon has electric field? pretty strange science?

what's the propability for electron to stick with proton? 0?

what wave? electron moves along force, how it waves?

Thanks

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #197 on: 07/06/2015 01:03:37 »
Quote from: chiralSPO
The electric field of the photon can push the electron into a higher energy level if it (the photon) has the right amount of energy.
According to quantum electrodynamics photons don't have an electric or magnetic field.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #198 on: 07/06/2015 04:58:15 »
you guys are killing me.... [?] [B)] [:0] [xx(]

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #199 on: 07/06/2015 12:31:16 »
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.
Something is missing: a final "d".  [:)]
Quote
how could electron emits photons? how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?
Photons are created from the oscillation/acceleration of a charge or in an atom's transition from an energy state to another (or energy transitions of other electromagnetic systems). Energy is conserved because the electron/atom/system potential energy is transformed in energy of photons.
The number of photons is not a conserved quantity.
It's not magic, it's simple physics, you only have to study it.

--
lightarrow
« Last Edit: 07/06/2015 12:42:06 by lightarrow »