What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

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Offline Thebox

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What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

When an object is on the ground is it still falling?

How far can an object fall?

why does the surrounding ground of a hole in the ground not stop an object falling?

why does an object falling centrally into a hole not have a diagonal path?

« Last Edit: 07/05/2015 16:08:23 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #2 on: 07/05/2015 16:27:21 »
What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

Gravity.

When an object is on the ground is it still falling?

The earth is pushing up against the object and preventing it from falling further. If ground is not solid then you will continue falling through that medium until it again becomes solid.

How far can an object fall?

Ultimately until it reaches the centre of gravity if the path is not obstructed.

why does the surrounding ground of a hole in the ground not stop an object falling?

The gravity of the mass of the whole earth is acting on the object which is cumulatively stronger than the ground in the immediate vicinity.

why does an object falling centrally into a hole not have a diagonal path?

That depends upon how far you observe it falling. For the short distances that we can observe unaided you would see little deviation.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #3 on: 07/05/2015 17:00:14 »
What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

Gravity.

When an object is on the ground is it still falling?

The earth is pushing up against the object and preventing it from falling further. If ground is not solid then you will continue falling through that medium until it again becomes solid.

How far can an object fall?

Ultimately until it reaches the centre of gravity if the path is not obstructed.

why does the surrounding ground of a hole in the ground not stop an object falling?

The gravity of the mass of the whole earth is acting on the object which is cumulatively stronger than the ground in the immediate vicinity.

why does an object falling centrally into a hole not have a diagonal path?

That depends upon how far you observe it falling. For the short distances that we can observe unaided you would see little deviation.

You say the Earth is pushing up against the object according to Newtons third Law and the Fn=0.

An object falls towards the center of gravity, centripetally, for something to push, it has to have force, so what force are you suggesting that enables the ground to push away from the center of gravity and push back at an object to an equal and opposing force to maintain Fn=0?


I suggest the ground is also centripetally being forced in the direction of the earths core and is destination bound, the same as the object to  the core, I suggest the ground has no ability to push back against an object because they are both travelling the same direction under the same force, I suggest an object is always falling but can not fall any further because of a traffic jam of matter in the way being stopped isotropically by a central point of pressure.

I suggest an earthquake pushes back,

What would your opinion be of this?


« Last Edit: 07/05/2015 17:06:15 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #4 on: 07/05/2015 17:26:46 »
If you are going to put up your own theory, it ought to be in New Theories.
I'm not responding to your questions for reasons I've given before.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #5 on: 07/05/2015 17:28:18 »
If you are going to put up your own theory, it ought to be in New Theories.
I'm not responding to your questions for reasons I've given before.

it is a discussion with question marks, not a theory,what do you think?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #6 on: 07/05/2015 17:43:08 »
What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

A medium is a special case - if he or she is in communication with someone dead at the time, he/she may float above the ground and not fall.

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When an object is on the ground is it still falling?

It's still being pulled in a downward direction, but it's now being slightly compressed by this force as it's being blocked from moving down any further. Clearly it is not falling.

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How far can an object fall?

All the way down.

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why does the surrounding ground of a hole in the ground not stop an object falling?

Because it's in the wrong place to stop an object that goes through the hole.

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why does an object falling centrally into a hole not have a diagonal path?

What is a diagonal path in this context?

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I suggest the ground is also centripetally being forced in the direction of the earths core and is destination bound, the same as the object to  the core, I suggest the ground has no ability to push back against an object because they are both travelling the same direction under the same force, I suggest an object is always falling but can not fall any further because of a traffic jam of matter in the way being stopped isotropically by a central point of pressure.

Don't bring the word centripetal into this. Other than that though, you're thinking in the right direction - there's a pile up which results in a high pressure building up, and the force pushing back upwards is that pressure, but it's important to understand that the pressure is powered by inwards/downward gravity.

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I suggest an earthquake pushes back,

Why would you want to bring that in here?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #7 on: 07/05/2015 17:59:53 »
What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

A medium is a special case - if he or she is in communication with someone dead at the time, he/she may float above the ground and not fall.

Quote
When an object is on the ground is it still falling?

It's still being pulled in a downward direction, but it's now being slightly compressed by this force as it's being blocked from moving down any further. Clearly it is not falling.

Quote
How far can an object fall?

All the way down.

Quote
why does the surrounding ground of a hole in the ground not stop an object falling?

Because it's in the wrong place to stop an object that goes through the hole.

Quote
why does an object falling centrally into a hole not have a diagonal path?

What is a diagonal path in this context?

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I suggest the ground is also centripetally being forced in the direction of the earths core and is destination bound, the same as the object to  the core, I suggest the ground has no ability to push back against an object because they are both travelling the same direction under the same force, I suggest an object is always falling but can not fall any further because of a traffic jam of matter in the way being stopped isotropically by a central point of pressure.

Don't bring the word centripetal into this. Other than that though, you're thinking in the right direction - there's a pile up which results in a high pressure building up, and the force pushing back upwards is that pressure, but it's important to understand that the pressure is powered by inwards/downward gravity.

Quote
I suggest an earthquake pushes back,

Why would you want to bring that in here?


The diagonal path was in relationship to curvature, I mentioned earth quakes because the seismic waves from beneath force the ground to wave up and down by tectonic plate movement, I though this was in relationship to a build up of something being released, and the ground being pushed the opposite way to gravity,

I understand the earth wants to implode , but I still do not understand how it can push an object back, surely the object is pushing the ground?

And is the force you mention that pushes back , not KE and the magnetic field?

« Last Edit: 07/05/2015 18:01:40 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #8 on: 07/05/2015 18:04:51 »
For the time being I'm prepared to accept this as a genuine question because it has a classic answer.

IIRC the time taken for an object to fall through a hole in the centre of the earth is about 42 minutes, though the figure has been revised from time to time as we learn about the inhomogeneities of the planet.

If we ignore air resistance (and why not? We are ignoring pretty much everything else we know about the earth!) and consider the planet to be a perfect sphere, the object's acceleration can be calculated at every point by subtracting the contribution of the shell above it. As it passes the centre it will slow down (there now being more mass "above" than "below") until it pops out of the hole in the Antipodes, reaches a height above ground exactly the same as the height you dropped it from, and returns whence it came.

Plenty of mathematicians and physicists have solved the equations, and it used to be part of the undergraduate general physics syllabus, but I understand that the questioner isn't particularly interested in physics or maths.

The most readable treatment of the question that I have come across, is "The Krone Experiment" - a brilliant novel by a geophysicist,  sadly turned into a crap DVD by the author's brother - in which the antihero makes a small black hole and, of course, drops it. Neat trick because of course the black hole creates its own tunnel! There are a couple of equations in the book (including corrections for rotation) but they aren't vital to the plot and there's also enough sex and violence to interest an unsophisticated mind. Enjoy and learn....   
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #9 on: 07/05/2015 18:17:14 »
For the time being I'm prepared to accept this as a genuine question because it has a classic answer.

IIRC the time taken for an object to fall through a hole in the centre of the earth is about 42 minutes, though the figure has been revised from time to time as we learn about the inhomogeneities of the planet.

If we ignore air resistance (and why not? We are ignoring pretty much everything else we know about the earth!) and consider the planet to be a perfect sphere, the object's acceleration can be calculated at every point by subtracting the contribution of the shell above it. As it passes the centre it will slow down (there now being more mass "above" than "below") until it pops out of the hole in the Antipodes, reaches a height above ground exactly the same as the height you dropped it from, and returns whence it came.

Plenty of mathematicians and physicists have solved the equations, and it used to be part of the undergraduate general physics syllabus, but I understand that the questioner isn't particularly interested in physics or maths.

The most readable treatment of the question that I have come across, is "The Krone Experiment" - a brilliant novel by a geophysicist,  sadly turned into a crap DVD by the author's brother - in which the antihero makes a small black hole and, of course, drops it. Neat trick because of course the black hole creates its own tunnel! There are a couple of equations in the book (including corrections for rotation) but they aren't vital to the plot and there's also enough sex and violence to interest an unsophisticated mind. Enjoy and learn....

Thank you for understanding that is just questions, a dropped black hole is a very interesting idea, the sex and violence irrelevant.

I will make a small analogy

If you can imagine a sphere shaped magnet, and some way dropping iron fillings isotropic onto the magnet they will form an even layer, repeat and keep repeating, at no time do the iron fillings push back?

added - the magnetic field of the earth pushes back em radiation from the sun?
« Last Edit: 07/05/2015 18:22:25 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #10 on: 07/05/2015 18:22:31 »
A dropped black hole is just a hypothesis, and the equations are pretty trivial. Sex and violence are much more relevant to real life, completely absorbing, and way beyond understanding.

As long as you have a convergent magnetic field, iron filings will converge on it. 

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added - the magnetic field of the earth pushes back em radiation from the sun?
no.
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #11 on: 07/05/2015 18:25:24 »
A dropped black hole is just a hypothesis, and the equations are pretty trivial. Sex and violence are much more relevant to real life, completely absorbing, and way beyond understanding.

As long as you have a convergent magnetic field, iron filings will converge on it. 

Quote
added - the magnetic field of the earth pushes back em radiation from the sun?
no.

I  thought the Em field blocked harmful UV rays and gamma radiation , is that not an opposing and equal force?

added - and blocks the solar wind?
« Last Edit: 07/05/2015 18:27:48 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #12 on: 07/05/2015 20:40:49 »
sorry added question I just thought of,

why do clouds not fall to the ground when they have more mass than air per part?

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #13 on: 07/05/2015 20:53:21 »
Clouds don't have more mass per volume that air--that's why they float. When they get dense enough they precipitate (rain, snow, etc.)

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #14 on: 07/05/2015 21:06:27 »
Clouds don't have more mass per volume that air--that's why they float. When they get dense enough they precipitate (rain, snow, etc.)


thank you, so when a cloud gains more mass (becomes denser) before it precipitates, does the cloud sink to a lower altitude?

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #15 on: 07/05/2015 21:27:16 »
I think that clouds can get lower as they get denser, but you can't really think of clouds as discrete objects, so some of the intuition that goes with objects doesn't really apply here...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #16 on: 07/05/2015 21:35:08 »
I think that clouds can get lower as they get denser, but you can't really think of clouds as discrete objects, so some of the intuition that goes with objects doesn't really apply here...

I know you may think clouds have gone off topic but clouds contain falling ''objects'' such as rain and hail. 

Does rain or hail contain any net charge?



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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #17 on: 07/05/2015 22:34:14 »
I think that clouds can get lower as they get denser, but you can't really think of clouds as discrete objects, so some of the intuition that goes with objects doesn't really apply here...
As you know clouds are formed by warm moist air rising due to it's buoyancy, as the air rises it will cool due to natural atmospheric cooling with height (1degC/300m for saturated air). When it hits dew point it will condense and form cloud. If a cloud did go below the dew point level the moisture would evaporate. The bottom of a cloud is continually in an in between state. All this assumes the air is stable, ie not much intermixing due to wind or air currents.
Alan will know a lot more about it, I only know mountain and surface effects.

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the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #18 on: 07/05/2015 23:22:11 »
The earth does not have a significant electromagnetic field, and even if it did, that would have no effect on radiation from the sun.

A cloud is not a "thing" but a dynamic collection of droplets of water or ice. The appearance of semipermanence is due to water evaporating at the interface with drier air, or condensing as the air cools, either as a result of expansion or radiation. The processes are quite sudden and the interfaces therefore quite sharp - there can be as little as 10 feet altitude change between clear air and "solid" fog with visibilty less than a foot.       
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #19 on: 08/05/2015 08:09:52 »
The earth does not have a significant electromagnetic field, and even if it did, that would have no effect on radiation from the sun.

A cloud is not a "thing" but a dynamic collection of droplets of water or ice. The appearance of semipermanence is due to water evaporating at the interface with drier air, or condensing as the air cools, either as a result of expansion or radiation. The processes are quite sudden and the interfaces therefore quite sharp - there can be as little as 10 feet altitude change between clear air and "solid" fog with visibilty less than a foot.       


Your answer is rather confusing , anything is technically a ''thing'' , droplets of water or ice? that is certainly a thing that has mass, so why? before they ''fall'' do they stay floating, water and ice are heavier than air.

Fog interesting you should mention fog that hugs the surface, is fog a cloud at low level?  if yes, what is the difference to a cloud at altitude?

My original question was ,  What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?


The answer given was gravity, so you should be able to tell me exactly what gravity is?  if you can not then gravity can not exist in a sense and in my opinion would be along the lines of Unicorns.

Matter only contains so much, something of matter causes gravity, so what is it?

the list is one long...I will re-phrase my question, what make an atom attract to another atom to form density?







« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:18:39 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #20 on: 08/05/2015 14:37:46 »
I will answer some of these as other genuine enquirers will be watching

.........so why? before they ''fall'' do they stay floating, water and ice are heavier than air.
Water vapour is less dense than dry air and hence buoyant. This is described above. As the  vapour rises it gets colder and more moisture condenses out to start forming droplets, these often freeze because of the low temperature at altitude and being heavier start to fall. The exact physics is too complex to discuss here. As an example this paper covers air density, read at your leisure http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JAS-D-11-085.1

Fog interesting you should mention fog that hugs the surface, is fog a cloud at low level?  if yes, what is the difference to a cloud at altitude?
Yes, fog is a cloud at low level. I don't understand your follow up, I've said there is no difference, so why do you expect an explanation of the non existent difference??
The only reason it stays where it is is to do with temperature eg in some circumstances the fog is trapped under an inversion layer.


My original question was ,  What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

"...........The answer given was gravity, so you should be able to tell me exactly what gravity is?  if you can not then gravity can not exist in a sense and in my opinion would be along the lines of Unicorns.
Why don't you stick to your original questions?

You have been given answers about gravity before, but you have your own theory. According to you we are wrong. That's ok we can live with it, move on.


the list is one long...I will re-phrase my question, what make an atom attract to another atom to form density?
This is not a rephrasing, it is a new question. Start a new thread if you genuinely want to know, or if you have your own theory put it in New Theories along with the rest of your gravity theory.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #21 on: 09/05/2015 09:11:15 »
I will answer some of these as other genuine enquirers will be watching

.........so why? before they ''fall'' do they stay floating, water and ice are heavier than air.
Water vapour is less dense than dry air and hence buoyant. This is described above. As the  vapour rises it gets colder and more moisture condenses out to start forming droplets, these often freeze because of the low temperature at altitude and being heavier start to fall. The exact physics is too complex to discuss here. As an example this paper covers air density, read at your leisure http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JAS-D-11-085.1

Fog interesting you should mention fog that hugs the surface, is fog a cloud at low level?  if yes, what is the difference to a cloud at altitude?
Yes, fog is a cloud at low level. I don't understand your follow up, I've said there is no difference, so why do you expect an explanation of the non existent difference??
The only reason it stays where it is is to do with temperature eg in some circumstances the fog is trapped under an inversion layer.


My original question was ,  What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

"...........The answer given was gravity, so you should be able to tell me exactly what gravity is?  if you can not then gravity can not exist in a sense and in my opinion would be along the lines of Unicorns.
Why don't you stick to your original questions?

You have been given answers about gravity before, but you have your own theory. According to you we are wrong. That's ok we can live with it, move on.


the list is one long...I will re-phrase my question, what make an atom attract to another atom to form density?
This is not a rephrasing, it is a new question. Start a new thread if you genuinely want to know, or if you have your own theory put it in New Theories along with the rest of your gravity theory.

Thank you Colin for your answers, you think my questions are new questions, I think my questions are relevant to my fist question and a part of the question.
A fog cloud hugs the ground, clouds float, air rises and air sinks , a convection process.

The question to my question torn apart to the basics, is why does an atom attract to an atom to form density?   

Clouds form to make density, so what attracts the water vapour/gas to other water vapour/gas to form density?

The water vapour/gas becomes dense then falls back to the ground, the same force of attract that holds the density together in the first place of the cloud.

My questions are on topic, most things are connected in some way , to dig deep we have to consider all aspects of the question to get an appropriate answer.

Gravity is not an answer I am looking for, I want more of an answer than just the naming of something, We could of just called gravity falling, that is the use and description on earth. 

I have done a fundamental breakdown of matter, which leads me to atoms, so if the earth is atoms and clouds are atoms, rain is denser atoms and attracted to the earth what makes the atoms attracted to atoms?

I do not know, you should know, and when you tell me the answer, I then know why an object falls to the ground.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #22 on: 09/05/2015 09:30:35 »

A fog cloud hugs the ground, clouds float, air rises and air sinks , a convection process.

The question to my question torn apart to the basics, is why does an atom attract to an atom to form density?   

Chemistry. In the case of clouds, and water generally, read up about hydrogen bonds.

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Clouds form to make density, so what attracts the water vapour/gas to other water vapour/gas to form density?

Any system will tend to the lowest energy state. In the case of water, the free surface energy of a droplet decreases as the droplet size increases.

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The water vapour/gas becomes dense then falls back to the ground, the same force of attract that holds the density together in the first place of the cloud.


No. Gravity has nothing to do with the hydrogen bond. 

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Gravity is not an answer I am looking for, I want more of an answer than just the naming of something, We could of just called gravity falling, that is the use and description on earth.
  Alas, that is the name of the force that isn't electrostatic, magnetic, nuclear or anything else. You might as well ask why like charges repel, whilst insisting thet "electrostatic force" isn't an acceptable answer.

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I have done a fundamental breakdown of matter, which leads me to atoms, so if the earth is atoms and clouds are atoms, rain is denser atoms and attracted to the earth what makes the atoms attracted to atoms?

See above. But if you don't believe in electron orbitals or the fact that gravity is not electrostatic, you won't accept any answers anyway.

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I do not know, you should know, and when you tell me the answer, I then know why an object falls to the ground.

Science isn't about "why" but "how".
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #23 on: 09/05/2015 11:39:53 »
I agree with Alan (then we would wouldn't we - conspiracy)

You started a topic on gravity and why things fall to the ground. The question of why atoms bond to form molecules, and then molecules grouping to form elements and compounds, has nothing to do with gravity.

Because you refuse to read up on basic physics and chemistry and insist on thinking it up for yourself, our answers to your questions will never make sense to you, and you will always feel frustrated.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #24 on: 09/05/2015 12:11:00 »
I agree with Alan (then we would wouldn't we - conspiracy)

You started a topic on gravity and why things fall to the ground. The question of why atoms bond to form molecules, and then molecules grouping to form elements and compounds, has nothing to do with gravity.

Because you refuse to read up on basic physics and chemistry and insist on thinking it up for yourself, our answers to your questions will never make sense to you, and you will always feel frustrated.

I disagree, your answers are contradictory and this is why science keeps confusing me.


Science says that all matter is made of atoms ? yes or no

The Cavendish experiment shows using ''balls'' that all mass is attracted to mass? yes or no

All matter has mass? yes or no

A single atom has mass? yes or no

single atoms mass are attracted to other single atoms mass? yes or no

I think all your answers are yes agreeing with me.

What makes a cluster of atoms(an object) fall to the ground?

Atoms have to be attracted to atoms ,

You say an electron is a negative polarity attached to a positive polarity Proton,

So the atom emits a positive and a negative polarity at the same time? yes or no


a (+) and (-) electrostatic nuclear bond, would = +- in attract? yes or no A+B=C

It is not a theory and all relevant to my original question. Science keeps leaving me without answers, I am quoting your own facts back to you, not making random assumptions, it is your information.

« Last Edit: 09/05/2015 12:26:59 by Thebox »

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #25 on: 09/05/2015 13:30:47 »
Quote from: Thebox
I disagree, your answers are contradictory and this is why science keeps confusing me.
On the contrary. His answers are spot on. You keep getting confused because you refuse to learn physics and you'll continue to be confused until you pick up a book and learn it. E.g. read the book The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe by Roger Penrose, (2004). It's 1045 pages long. Once you've read that book cover to cover you'll have taken a good step to understanding physics.

Quote from: Thebox
Science says that all matter is made of atoms ? yes or no
No. An electron is said to be matter. However an electron is not made of atoms. If one defines the term matter in the same way that Einstein did, i.e. as it's existence being dependent on the non-vanishing of the stress-energy-momentum (SEM) tensor, then no, all matter is not made of atoms. For example: electric and magnetic fields don't have a vanishing SEM tensor so an EM field is made of matter. So it can be said that light is made of matter and I'm assuming you know that light is not made of matter.

Quote from: Thebox
The Cavendish experiment shows using ''balls'' that all mass is attracted to mass? yes or no
For the most part, yes. However general relativity (GR) allows for the existence of matter which gravitationally repels normal matter. Look up the phrase vacuum domain wall. You'll find articles such as this

Gravitationally repulsive domain wall by J. Ipser and P. Sikivie, Phys. Rev. D 30, 712, Aug. 15, 1984
http://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.30.712
Quote
Abstract - The Gauss-Codazzi formalism is used to obtain exact solutions to Einstein's equations in the presence of domain walls. Domain walls are shown to have repulsive gravitational fields. The most general solution to Einstein's equations for a planar domain wall is obtained. Also, the motion of a spherical domain wall in an asymptotically flat space-time is derived.
Note the part that says Domain walls are shown to have repulsive gravitational fields.

Quote from: Thebox
All matter has mass? yes or no
Yes.

Quote from: Thebox
A single atom has mass? yes or no
Yes.

Quote from: Thebox
single atoms mass are attracted to other single atoms mass? yes or no
Gravitationally? Yes.

Quote from: Thebox
What makes a cluster of atoms(an object) fall to the ground?
You already know the answer. Gravity.

Quote from: Thebox
Atoms have to be attracted to atoms ,
That's correct. Atoms have a gravitational field.

Quote from: Thebox
You say an electron is a negative polarity attached to a positive polarity Proton,
Incorrect. You're misusing the term "polarity." That term is defined as follows
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polarity
Quote
physics : the condition of having positive and negative charges and especially magnetic or electrical poles
The correct way to phrase what you wanted is as follows
Quote
You say an electron is a negative charge attached to a positively charged Proton,
That's true. However this is happening at the subatomic level so you have to use quantum mechanics to describe it. Otherwise you're going to run into problems.

Quote from: Thebox
So the atom emits a positive and a negative polarity at the same time? yes or no
No. Atoms don't "emit" positive or negative charge (or polarity) whatsoever.

Quote from: Thebox
a (+) and (-) electrostatic nuclear bond, would = +- in attract? yes or no A+B=C
Here's where your refusal to learn physics is causing problems. That statement is so poorly phrased as to be meaningless. I.e. it's quite unclear what exactly you mean when you write "a (+) and (-) electrostatic nuclear bond". In any case the bond between nuclei is a result of the strong force and not the electrostatic force.

Quote from: Thebox
You think that you know what you're talking about but you really don't.
Bzzzzz! Wrong! He knows precisely what he's talking about. In fact he knows physics and what he's talking about a great deal more than you do, that's for certain. The fact that everyone here agrees with that opinion doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Why is that? You won't even attempt to demonstrate that everyone is wrong.
 
Quote from: Thebox
Science keeps leaving me without answers, I am quoting your own facts back to you, not making random assumptions, it is your information.
Wow! You're well-known for being the king of random assumptions and you're accusing others of it? Lol!

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #26 on: 09/05/2015 13:39:26 »
Let's get something clear once and for all. Let M = mass of Earth and Q it's charge. Let m << M be the mass of a test particle and q << Q its charge. Let a = acceleration of the test particle. According to TB the force on the test particle due to the Earth is

F = ma = kQq/r2

Solving for a gives

a = kQq/mr2 = (q/m)kQ/r2

This shows that the acceleration of a charged particle in the presence of a charged Earth is a function of the test particle's charge to mass ratio. Therefore different particles will fall at different rates. Particles with no charge, such as neutrons, won't fall at all. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_particle for a list of such particles.

Since we can easily observe that all particles and all objects fall at exactly the same rate independent of the object's charge. So, once again, TB is wrong.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #27 on: 09/05/2015 14:07:40 »

Quote from: Thebox
single atoms mass are attracted to other single atoms mass? yes or no
Gravitationally? Yes.


Thank you for your thoughtful post and answers.  Firstly I would like to question your answer to the above where you agree and say yes.

So if we have 2 atoms , A and B , for example purposes 10 inch apart in a perfect vacuum, both atoms will be attracted to each other by mass and gravitational force.

A>>>>><<<<<B

<> = 1 inch


The same applies if A^10 and B^10 being more atoms yes?

So if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?

My reasoning tells me that a single atoms has gravity so the answer of gravity is in or of an atom.  Nothing bigger matters.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #28 on: 09/05/2015 23:49:38 »
My reasoning tells me that a single atoms has gravity so the answer of gravity is in or of an atom.  Nothing bigger matters.

Then abandon "reasoning", which so far seems to have led you to all sorts of fanciful nonsense, and consider only facts. All matter has a gravitational field. This applies not only to atoms and things made of atoms, but to subatomic particles too. Gravitation is associated with mass and F=Gm1m2/r2 for any value or embodiment of m, whether or not it carries an electric charge or a magnetic moment. 
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 00:43:02 by alancalverd »
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #29 on: 10/05/2015 10:48:50 »
My reasoning tells me that a single atoms has gravity so the answer of gravity is in or of an atom.  Nothing bigger matters.

Then abandon "reasoning", which so far seems to have led you to all sorts of fanciful nonsense, and consider only facts. All matter has a gravitational field. This applies not only to atoms and things made of atoms, but to subatomic particles too. Gravitation is associated with mass and F=Gm1m2/r2 for any value or embodiment of m, whether or not it carries an electric charge or a magnetic moment.

I do understand gravity, that is not my question I want to know why? abandoning reasoning is to accept the colour red without knowing why it is red. Your version of gravity is red.
Why can no one in science just answer simple questions?

Science leaves people confused without full answers all the time.


 if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #30 on: 10/05/2015 14:51:25 »
Science leaves people confused without full answers all the time.
Some people are confused all the time

if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?
This has been answered in your post "Protons are attracted to Protons .." and in other post you have made along with the current position on gravity.

I'm not sure you bother to read them! You certainly don't understand them, why do you assume simple questions have simple answers? You claim to be a great thinker, but none of your great thought hang together.

Go forth and learn some physics.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #31 on: 10/05/2015 15:00:36 »
Science leaves people confused without full answers all the time.
Some people are confused all the time

if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?
This has been answered in your post "Protons are attracted to Protons .." and in other post you have made along with the current position on gravity.

I'm not sure you bother to read them! You certainly don't understand them, why do you assume simple questions have simple answers? You claim to be a great thinker, but none of your great thought hang together.

Go forth and learn some physics.

So the answer to my question of why does an object fall to the ground?, is because Protons are attracted to protons and is the gravity mechanism.

I will answer it myself to myself because that is what science leaves me to conclude.   You say go off and learn some physics yet I am producing Physics without even knowing all of the Physics. I am making it up as I go along by thinking of the basics.  Your gravity mechanism is protons, you have just told me this .




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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #32 on: 10/05/2015 15:01:32 »

I do understand gravity, that is not my question


Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.

Quote
I want to know why?

Wrong forum. There is no "why" in physics because we can't assume a universal ulterior motive for anything. We can explain "how" in terms of a few fundamental particles and forces, and for the present, gravitation is one of those forces.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #33 on: 10/05/2015 15:17:09 »

I do understand gravity, that is not my question


Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.

Quote
I want to know why?

Wrong forum. There is no "why" in physics because we can't assume a universal ulterior motive for anything. We can explain "how" in terms of a few fundamental particles and forces, and for the present, gravitation is one of those forces.

I disagree, why is the answer to everything, why does an object fall, answer gravity, I do not assume anything, all my physics is based on your facts., 

protons are attracted to protons as admitted, I throw an object into the air, the objects protons are attracted to the protons of the earth, shown in the Cavendish experiment as such.

radiation that fills all of space is an ''electrical coupling'', that is why you can not detect a gravitational wave,  the radiation is the conduit for the protons attractive force.

See this is my problem, most science forums agree with the physics then deny the physics at the same time, the same as you do on here.


You can not say a proton is attracted to a proton then deny that has anything to do with gravity, it is contradictory , we have established the atom is all we need to look at gravity by question answers you give of yes to my questions.


All atoms have mass, all atoms have protons, all protons are attracted to protons, it is simplicity that is true physics to your facts, not even my physics, your already existing facts.




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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #34 on: 10/05/2015 17:03:05 »
Very basic facts: there are 4 fundamental forces: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force.

They have nothing to do with each other (well, electromagnetic and weak do...) but all must be considered when talking about interactions between particles.

Protons attract each other at any distance due to gravity (which is the weakest of the forces).

Protons repel each other at any distance due to electromagnetic interaction.

Protons attract each other when they are very (very, very) close due to the strong nuclear force.

If no other particles are considered, the overall interaction between protons is REPULSIVE at any distance (electromagnetic repulsion overpowers gravitation at every distance, and even in the range where the strong force is active, it is not quite enough to overpower this repulsion).

Once we allow for neutrons, which are electrically neutral and therefore neither attract nor repel protons electromagnetically, but follow the same gravitational (slightly more massive than protons) and strong interactions, then the strong force can out-do the electromagnetic force. One neutron is enough to bind two protons together into a nucleus, and one can produce stable nuclei containing up to 100 or so protons, so long as there are enough neutrons included.

However, each nucleus is still positively charged, and gravitation will never bring them together until there is some negative charge too (enter the electron). Neutral atoms and molecules (where the number of electrons is equal to the number of protons) can now have a net attraction to each other (though this is still mostly through electromagnetic interations like dipole-dipole or van der Waals interactions) and can be gravitationally pulled into objects like planets and stars.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #35 on: 10/05/2015 21:47:37 »
Very basic facts
The Box is not interested in facts, just his own theories.
I don't believe he even reads our posts.

One thing is certain, he is trolling. Posts like this are intended to draw folks into a discussion just so he can say 'you are wrong' and introduce his own New Theory.
Hence he should be posting only in new theories.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2015 04:15:07 by Colin2B »
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Bill S

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #36 on: 11/05/2015 13:44:46 »
Quote from: Colin
The Box is not interested in facts,

BTAIM, posts like Chiral's are good for those of us who want to learn. [:)]
There never was nothing.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #37 on: 11/05/2015 16:32:21 »
Why thank you!  [;D]

Of course, we must always remember that those who post questions are not the only ones who could benefit from the answers.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #38 on: 11/05/2015 18:52:53 »
Why thank you!  [;D]

Of course, we must always remember that those who post questions are not the only ones who could benefit from the answers.
Yes, thanks all round Chiral. The only reason I bothered to post in this thread was because I was concerned innocent minds might be perverted.

Having said that, THe Box is not interested in facts, he is a troll. Heed my words you innocents and read Chiral's post to learn the truth.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #39 on: 11/05/2015 19:24:40 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #40 on: 11/05/2015 19:28:19 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?

exactly jeffrey

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #41 on: 11/05/2015 19:31:46 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?

exactly jeffrey

Don't cherry pick it wasn't an argument in your favour.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #42 on: 11/05/2015 19:37:34 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?

exactly jeffrey

Don't cherry pick it wasn't an argument in your favour.

Yes it was, you said it is a good question, because it is a good question, small is the same as big, it doe snot matter, already agreed atoms have mass.

atom 1 - m1

atom 2 - m2

m1 is equally attracted to m2

added - is a Proton, mass?

or should we be discussing the mass of a quark?



« Last Edit: 11/05/2015 20:42:51 by Thebox »

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #43 on: 11/05/2015 22:57:05 »
small is the same as big

Unfortunately, small is not the same as big. This applies to very simple systems (like glowing spheres, whose ratio of surface area to volume changes based on their size, so small ones cool faster than large ones) to very complex systems where there are many different variables that all scale differently with size.

And for systems that are small enough, we must consider the rules imposed on the quantum world, importantly including:
 -some things cannot be subdivided into smaller parts that have the same properties (you cannot shrink or split a hydrogen atom into smaller versions of itself)
-waves become the better analogy for describing most things at this scale
-determinism, causality and simultaneity don't necessarily apply

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #44 on: 11/05/2015 23:38:13 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?
Sounds like a separate thread. This one has got too confused with sidetracked questions and it wasn't the subject of the original question.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #45 on: 12/05/2015 03:02:55 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing.
I don't understand what you mean by As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object ..
It's the mass that causes an increase in the gravitational field of an object, not the density. Consider a spherical body with a spherically symmetric mass distribution with constant mass density. Let the initial radius be R. When you increase the density of the object by crushing it so as to force all the matter into a smaller space then the gravitational field at distances greater than R remains constant because the mass hasn't changed.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #46 on: 12/05/2015 17:46:16 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing.
I don't understand what you mean by As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object ..
It's the mass that causes an increase in the gravitational field of an object, not the density. Consider a spherical body with a spherically symmetric mass distribution with constant mass density. Let the initial radius be R. When you increase the density of the object by crushing it so as to force all the matter into a smaller space then the gravitational field at distances greater than R remains constant because the mass hasn't changed.

I agree

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #47 on: 12/05/2015 17:49:25 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?
Sounds like a separate thread. This one has got too confused with sidetracked questions and it wasn't the subject of the original question.

It is the original question but in more detail.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #48 on: 12/05/2015 19:47:12 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing.
I don't understand what you mean by As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object ..
It's the mass that causes an increase in the gravitational field of an object, not the density. Consider a spherical body with a spherically symmetric mass distribution with constant mass density. Let the initial radius be R. When you increase the density of the object by crushing it so as to force all the matter into a smaller space then the gravitational field at distances greater than R remains constant because the mass hasn't changed.

That's why I said "at the surface", this being a shrinking surface area.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 19:49:26 by jeffreyH »
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #49 on: 13/05/2015 04:37:07 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
That's why I said "at the surface", this being a shrinking surface area.
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.

If one is familiar with Gauss's theorem then that is a trivial deduction. Do you know Gauss's theorem?