What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #50 on: 13/05/2015 06:36:04 »
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.
This is why I consider this a separate question. The original question is what makes an object fall to the ground, not why isn't gravity a function of atomic interactions (which it might well turn out to be!).
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #51 on: 13/05/2015 13:20:06 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
That's why I said "at the surface", this being a shrinking surface area.
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.

If one is familiar with Gauss's theorem then that is a trivial deduction. Do you know Gauss's theorem?

I have come across Gauss's theorem but not really concentrated on it.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #52 on: 13/05/2015 13:21:17 »
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.
This is why I consider this a separate question. The original question is what makes an object fall to the ground, not why isn't gravity a function of atomic interactions (which it might well turn out to be!).

I have thought quite a bit about how atomic interactions could be the cause of gravity and was never satisfied with any of my conclusions.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #53 on: 13/05/2015 14:46:56 »
I have thought quite a bit about how atomic interactions could be the cause of gravity and was never satisfied with any of my conclusions.
I respect your opinion because I know how much work you put into understanding difficult subjects, and I have seen the quality of your analysis on these subjects.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #54 on: 13/05/2015 17:54:04 »
I will say this. There is a gap in our concept of mass that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton. Until that is sorted out things are not going to advance in any fundamental way.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #55 on: 13/05/2015 21:23:57 »
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.
This is why I consider this a separate question. The original question is what makes an object fall to the ground, not why isn't gravity a function of atomic interactions (which it might well turn out to be!).

This is why it is a part of the question.

We start with a falling object falling to the ground.

example - I fall from a plane with no parachute, (which the thought would make some of you smile).

there is something pulling all that my body is made of to the ground.

hence gravity


so what is gravity the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?

The ground is made from the same stuff as your body , the stuff are called atoms.

so my atoms are attracted to other atoms because other atoms and my atoms have mass?

yes indeed.


so what part of the atoms of my body attract to other atoms?

well there is protons which are quarks, and quarks attract quarks, so maybe......this is why you fall to the floor.






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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #56 on: 13/05/2015 21:54:35 »
From quantum Chromodynamics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
[According to the rules of quantum field theory, and the associated Feynman diagrams, the above theory gives rise to three basic interactions: a quark may emit (or absorb) a gluon, a gluon may emit (or absorb) a gluon, and two gluons may directly interact. This contrasts with QED, in which only the first kind of interaction occurs, since photons have no charge. Diagrams involving Faddeev–Popov ghosts must be considered too (except in the unitarity gauge).]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faddeev–Popov_ghost

Look in particular at the ghost field Lagrangian. Note the difference between QED and QCD.

[The first term is a kinetic term like for regular complex scalar fields, and the second term describes the interaction with the gauge fields. Note that in abelian gauge theories (such as quantum electrodynamics) the ghosts do not have any effect since [tex]f^{abc} = 0[/tex] and, consequently, the ghost particles do not interact with the gauge fields.]

What do you think Mr Box?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #57 on: 13/05/2015 22:05:21 »
From quantum Chromodynamics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
[According to the rules of quantum field theory, and the associated Feynman diagrams, the above theory gives rise to three basic interactions: a quark may emit (or absorb) a gluon, a gluon may emit (or absorb) a gluon, and two gluons may directly interact. This contrasts with QED, in which only the first kind of interaction occurs, since photons have no charge. Diagrams involving Faddeev–Popov ghosts must be considered too (except in the unitarity gauge).]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faddeev–Popov_ghost

Look in particular at the ghost field Lagrangian. Note the difference between QED and QCD.

[The first term is a kinetic term like for regular complex scalar fields, and the second term describes the interaction with the gauge fields. Note that in abelian gauge theories (such as quantum electrodynamics) the ghosts do not have any effect since [tex]f^{abc} = 0[/tex] and, consequently, the ghost particles do not interact with the gauge fields.]

What do you think Mr Box?


Thank you for the interesting links, I will read these tomorrow night and think them through, I have work in the morning so need go to bed. 

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #58 on: 13/05/2015 22:27:28 »
well there is protons which are quarks, and quarks attract quarks, so maybe......this is why you fall to the floor.
We've explained before that what attract nucleons together is not gravity.
I don't see the point in responding to your posts if your don't read what we say.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #59 on: 13/05/2015 22:37:26 »
Note also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
[QCD is a type of quantum field theory called a non-abelian gauge theory with symmetry group SU(3).]

Since SU(3) is non-abelian then does "Note that in abelian gauge theories (such as quantum electrodynamics) the ghosts do not have any effect since [tex]f^{abc} = 0[/tex] and, consequently, the ghost particles do not interact with the gauge fields." mean that Faddeev–Popov ghost fields apply differently in QCD?

« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 22:39:33 by jeffreyH »
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #60 on: 14/05/2015 01:19:26 »
Quote from: Thebox
so what is gravity the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
I wish you'd phrase things such that they're more readable and clearer. The phrase "so what is gravity the force..." doesn't make sense. If it's what I think you meant then you need to use punctuation to make it readable. I.e. did you mean to ask
Quote
So what is gravity? Is it the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
or perhaps
Quote
So what is gravity? It is the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
etc.

You you should know by now that this is a question about the mechanism of gravity and not something that can be answered at this stage of physics. GR only tells us how to describe gravitational interactions. It can't tell you why they occur. If there is ever a quantum theory of gravity then we might learn that the gravitational interaction between objects is mediated by gravitons in the same way that the electromagnetic interaction between charged particles are mediated by photons (virtual photons to be exact). I've lost count of how many times I've told you this. Why do you ignore what we keep telling you? What's the point of anybody answering your questions if you're going to forget them right off the bat and pose the same questions all over a few days later?

Quote from: Thebox
The ground is made from the same stuff as your body , the stuff are called atoms.
Bad grammar.  That should be expressed as "the stuff is called atoms.[/u]

Quote from: Thebox
so what part of the atoms of my body attract to other atoms?
You can't be serious? The gravitational force between any two particles is given by F12 = G m1m2/r2 regardless of what particle it is. Are you going to tell me that you didn't know this well-known fact?

Quote from: Thebox
well there is protons which are quarks, ...
No. Protons are not quarks. They are composed of quarks.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #61 on: 14/05/2015 06:56:52 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
I will say this. There is a gap in our concept of mass...
Woa there. Who are the "our" that you're referring to? Not I, that's for sure.

Quote from: jeffreyH
.. that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton. Until that is sorted out things are not going to advance in any fundamental way.
Why would you think that there is a gap in our concept of mass and not in our understanding of subatomic particles?

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #62 on: 15/05/2015 00:02:01 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
I will say this. There is a gap in our concept of mass...
Woa there. Who are the "our" that you're referring to? Not I, that's for sure.

Quote from: jeffreyH
.. that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton. Until that is sorted out things are not going to advance in any fundamental way.
Why would you think that there is a gap in our concept of mass and not in our understanding of subatomic particles?

The way I see it it is both.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #63 on: 15/05/2015 08:18:41 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The way I see it it is both.
This is what you were arguing when you made that comment, i.e.
Quote
There is a gap in our concept of mass that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton.
You never did state what you meant by these relationships and why their value should be of any significance to anything else in physics. Do you think that you can explain that for me? Thanks.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #64 on: 15/05/2015 19:00:22 »
Quote from: Thebox
so what is gravity the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
I wish you'd phrase things such that they're more readable and clearer. The phrase "so what is gravity the force..." doesn't make sense. If it's what I think you meant then you need to use punctuation to make it readable. I.e. did you mean to ask
Quote
So what is gravity? Is it the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
or perhaps
Quote
So what is gravity? It is the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
etc.

You you should know by now that this is a question about the mechanism of gravity and not something that can be answered at this stage of physics. GR only tells us how to describe gravitational interactions. It can't tell you why they occur. If there is ever a quantum theory of gravity then we might learn that the gravitational interaction between objects is mediated by gravitons in the same way that the electromagnetic interaction between charged particles are mediated by photons (virtual photons to be exact). I've lost count of how many times I've told you this. Why do you ignore what we keep telling you? What's the point of anybody answering your questions if you're going to forget them right off the bat and pose the same questions all over a few days later?

Quote from: Thebox
The ground is made from the same stuff as your body , the stuff are called atoms.
Bad grammar.  That should be expressed as "the stuff is called atoms.[/u]

Quote from: Thebox
so what part of the atoms of my body attract to other atoms?
You can't be serious? The gravitational force between any two particles is given by F12 = G m1m2/r2 regardless of what particle it is. Are you going to tell me that you didn't know this well-known fact?

Quote from: Thebox
well there is protons which are quarks, ...
No. Protons are not quarks. They are composed of quarks.

You just openly admitted that you do not know the real reason of why an object falls to the ground, because you do not know the mechanism of gravity.

Is this not a forum for discussion?

why can we not discuss and look for an answer to my question right here?

You want to know, I want to know, lets answer it in this thread by discussing it, all I have ever wanted from any forum , is to discuss the information I am reading and to look for answers we do not know.

I have a mind and I can think very well about absolutely anything.

 I  know you say that what holds an  atom together as nothing to do with gravity, I have not said it does.   


Can we agree that we know atoms have mass, and to discuss atoms concerning gravity is valid ?


I will start a discussion, if anyone wants to discuss things.

Science says that atoms have proton(s).  These Protons are made up of  3 quarks,

my first thought on this is, can we observe this or is this just theory?



« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 19:06:04 by Thebox »

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #65 on: 15/05/2015 19:18:22 »
Quote from: Thebox
You just openly admitted that you do not know the real reason of why an object falls to the ground, because you do not know the mechanism of gravity.
And, as I've said countless times before, this is an example of what happens when someone doesn't read physics texts or philosophy of physics texts, i.e. you fail to understand the nature of physics. This is a perfect example of it. You have, yet once again, demonstrated that you don't understand the nature of physics and its that failure that has led you to believe that not knowing that general relativity cannot explain gravity to be some sort of failure on its part or on the part of physics. It's not.

In the article Gravitation and the Principle of Relativity by A.S. Eddington, Nature, March 14, 1918, wrote on page 36
Quote
The purpose of Einstein’s new theory has often been misunderstood, and it has been criticized as an attempt to explain gravitation. The theory does not offer any explanation of gravitation; that lies outside its scope, and it does not even hint at a possible mechanism. It is true that we have introduced a definite hypothesis as to the relation between gravitation and a distortion of space; but if that explains anything, it explains not gravitation, but space, i.e. the scaffolding constructed for our measures.
So while the rest of the physics community understands these facts you most certainly do not.

Quote from: Thebox
Is this not a forum for discussion?
Of course it is.

Quote from: Thebox
why can we not discuss and look for an answer to my question right here?
Nobody ever suggested that you can't.

Quote from: Thebox
so what is gravity
You want to know, I want to know, lets answer it in this thread by discussing it, all I have ever wanted from any forum , is to discuss the information I am reading and to look for answers we do not know.
You actually think it's as easy as that, huh? Well take my word for it. It's not. The greatest minds in physics have been seeking the answers to those questions for the last hundred years. Why do you, someone who refuses to even learn physics, actually think that you have what it takes to solve the problem?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #66 on: 15/05/2015 19:34:59 »

You actually think it's as easy as that, huh? Well take my word for it. It's not. The greatest minds in physics have been seeking the answers to those questions for the last hundred years. Why do you, someone who refuses to even learn physics, actually think that you have what it takes to solve the problem?

I see the Universe as small, there is not much to it.  Greatest minds in Physics...hmmmmm a different subject knowing information ,does not mean a great mind for thinking.


''actually think that you have what it takes to solve the problem?''

I am pretty sure I already have the answer but that would be theory and  not discussion.   I wish to discuss your information , establish true facts from fiction and discuss it.

My first question was , can we observe an atom? 

if not ,then what makes everyone think they are made up of components?

please discuss

« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 19:41:28 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #67 on: 15/05/2015 19:41:33 »

My first question was , can we observe a Proton? 


Yes, but only if you think you can observe a cow. Otherwise you  will end up discussing the meaning of "observe". The joy of living in the countryside and working in physics is that I can do both on the same day.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #68 on: 15/05/2015 19:49:16 »

My first question was , can we observe a Proton? 


Yes, but only if you think you can observe a cow. Otherwise you  will end up discussing the meaning of "observe". The joy of living in the countryside and working in physics is that I can do both on the same day.

So you are talking about imagination, can I imagine a Proton while I type? yes , decomposing  any structure leaves an elementary particle.

The logic is that things are made up of a single particle.

I do not imagine a single particle made up of components.

So where does this leave your imagination , where do the add ons come from?  proton, electron, nuetron,pions.gluons,quarks etc
« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 19:51:07 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #69 on: 16/05/2015 08:28:51 »
So you are talking about imagination, can I imagine a Proton while I type? yes , decomposing  any structure leaves an elementary particle.
No, Alancalvard was not talking about imagination, but observation.
This degree of misunderstanding is why you are unlikely to get anyone engaging in this conversation with you. The disconnect is too great, too basic.
To engage in a meaningful discussion you need a level of understanding beyond basic and you have not demonstrated that you have even a basic understanding of the fundamental principles.
It is like discussing the detailed, subtleties of French grammar with someone who refuses to learn even school level French.
« Last Edit: 16/05/2015 09:18:49 by Colin2B »
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
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Offline evan_au

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #70 on: 16/05/2015 10:44:18 »
Quote from: TheBox
I do not imagine a single particle made up of components.
I'm afraid that Democritus and Leucippus beat you to that conclusion by almost 2500 years.

They reasoned that if you broke matter into smaller & smaller pieces, you must eventually reach a size that could not be broken down further. They called these indivisible components "atoms".

Chemists broke matter into its constituent atoms by using chemical reactions, and later, electrolysis. Mendeleev catalogued these atoms through the development of the periodic table.

Of course, if you use a bigger hammer, you can break things into even smaller pieces.
  • Marie & Pierre Curie did groundbreaking work on radioactive decay, which is much more energetic than chemical reactions.
  • Atom smashers like today's LHC use an even bigger hammer, and produce even more pieces
  • It is thought the Big Bang was the ultimate hammer, and would have produced particles which we can, for now, only now imagine. 
So the logic of Democritus still stands - there must be some "fundamental" particle(s) that you cannot break down further; but we now suspect that the actual list depends on how big a hammer you have in your toolkit. 




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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #71 on: 16/05/2015 14:02:23 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The way I see it it is both.
This is what you were arguing when you made that comment, i.e.
Quote
There is a gap in our concept of mass that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton.
You never did state what you meant by these relationships and why their value should be of any significance to anything else in physics. Do you think that you can explain that for me? Thanks.

I need to double check some facts before answering. I may start a new thread when I get to that stage.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #72 on: 17/05/2015 18:04:05 »
So you are talking about imagination, can I imagine a Proton while I type? yes , decomposing  any structure leaves an elementary particle.
No, Alancalvard was not talking about imagination, but observation.
This degree of misunderstanding is why you are unlikely to get anyone engaging in this conversation with you. The disconnect is too great, too basic.
To engage in a meaningful discussion you need a level of understanding beyond basic and you have not demonstrated that you have even a basic understanding of the fundamental principles.
It is like discussing the detailed, subtleties of French grammar with someone who refuses to learn even school level French.

I am not misunderstanding, I know , you know, and we all know that you can not see an atom directly let alone a Proton, quark, pion, neutron etc.


I would say with a certainty you do not observe this.

You have a few experiments that show a reaction etc, this still does not show a Proton etc
to exist. 

So yes logical imagination it is, a theory without conclusive evidence.

I certainly agree in a single particle by evidence.   You can call it an atom, I will for all purposes of true values call it particle X.


For discussion purposes I would like to ask you to consider a single particle, particle X , there is nothing attached to it , it is an individual particle with no hidden agendas.

My question is to you, if particle X comes into contact with EMR (electro-magnetic radiation), I assume particle X by having an entropy = to  ''M'', M defining mass , will by thermodynamics gain energy and also lose energy.

So would you agree that if we fired electrons at particle X , that particle X would ''charge'' and emit energy ?

I use energy in a generalised sense.





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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #73 on: 18/05/2015 08:32:28 »
My first question was , can we observe a Proton? 
Yes, but only if you think you can observe a cow. Otherwise you  will end up discussing the meaning of "observe".

I would say with a certainty you do not observe this.

Note this jccc, alancalvard is a person who can predict the future.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #74 on: 18/05/2015 13:25:26 »
Even though we cannot see an atom directly with our eyes, we have microscopes that allow us to "see" them--see here:

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/09/17/another_one_of_those_startling_molecular_images.php
http://spie.org/x48127.xml
http://www.dmphotonics.com/Scanning_Probe_Microscopy/Atomic%20resolution%20on%20HOPG%20obtained%20with%20the%20100%20micron%20scanner.htm

Do you believe in the planet Neptune? There is no way you can see it from Earth unaided by any sort of technology, but we can see it with telescopes, have sent probes past it, and we could infer its existence by perturbations in Saturn's orbit.

There are many ways we can observe small objects, like atoms and subatomic particles, and most do not include using our eyes other than to see the data readouts...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #75 on: 18/05/2015 13:34:56 »
Even though we cannot see an atom directly with our eyes, we have microscopes that allow us to "see" them--see here:

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/09/17/another_one_of_those_startling_molecular_images.php
http://spie.org/x48127.xml
http://www.dmphotonics.com/Scanning_Probe_Microscopy/Atomic%20resolution%20on%20HOPG%20obtained%20with%20the%20100%20micron%20scanner.htm

Do you believe in the planet Neptune? There is no way you can see it from Earth unaided by any sort of technology, but we can see it with telescopes, have sent probes past it, and we could infer its existence by perturbations in Saturn's orbit.

There are many ways we can observe small objects, like atoms and subatomic particles, and most do not include using our eyes other than to see the data readouts...

You see an atom yes,as your links show evidence of, a particle X, but you not observe or see any components. This is conjecture is it not?

or can you provide a link to a Proton observation?
« Last Edit: 18/05/2015 13:43:15 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #76 on: 18/05/2015 14:34:45 »
Catching fish with a rod and line is impossible.
To catch the fish the fisherman needs to observe the fish biting the bait and hooking on to the line. This cannot be observed underwater, away from the shore.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #77 on: 18/05/2015 17:12:54 »
Catching fish with a rod and line is impossible.
To catch the fish the fisherman needs to observe the fish biting the bait and hooking on to the line. This cannot be observed underwater, away from the shore.

We use information that when the line pulls we have a bite, I miss the part where this is related to seeing a Proton etc.

I understand I pose some difficult questions, but I am confident science can answer in full why something falls to the ground.

It should not be that difficult knowing atoms or particle X has mass .   It all happens at particle X. So tell me what happens, why do atoms come close together to form density?

Would something in an atom(s) be an attractive force to each other?


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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #78 on: 18/05/2015 22:32:42 »
We use information that when the line pulls we have a bite, I miss the part where this is related to seeing a Proton etc.
The point is that you are not seeing directly, you are using of an instrument to tell you what is happening.

, but you not observe or see any components. This is conjecture is it not?

or can you provide a link to a Proton observation?

The point is that you are using a common usage of observe, whereas in science an observation covers indirect observation by measurement eg voltage, charge, movement of charge, voltage on a detector, interaction with another particle, etc, etc.
All these measurements (observations) build up a description of a particle or process based on its properties. When these properties are measured ie observed, consistently, that set of properties is given a name eg proton, mass, etc.**
Measurements are important in science as they allow a better description than purely qualitative descriptions. They allow us to make predictions using maths that wordy descriptions do not.
Consistent mathematical predictions allow design of technology that pseudoscience does not.
Until you understand this you will never understand what science is saying and so reject it, then most conversations will be pointless.
This is what alancalverd was saying.
 
**[This is similar to observing a cow (except you experience it directly through eyes, touch, smell) there is a set of properties which we call a cow.]
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #79 on: 18/05/2015 23:10:46 »
If I were a philosopher (which thank the Lord I'm not, sir) I would say that you never observe a cow but only respond to the photons reflected from it. From which we can deduce that philosophers can't eat meat or drink milk because these are the products of something whose existence we can't actually observe.

The fact that philosophers don't starve to death clearly demonstrates that they don't take themselves seriously. Which is a pity because the world would be a better place if they did.
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #80 on: 19/05/2015 01:52:16 »
You can use a cloud chamber to "see" subatomic particles, including protons. The nifty thing about this is that you (YOU) can build one at home!

Here is a link to a pdf that describes the background and has a how-to guide

http://xraise.classe.cornell.edu/document/cloudchamber.pdf

Proving the identity of the particles that this instrument detects requires a much more specialized instrument, but I guarantee that it is capable of detecting protons, electrons, alpha particles and more!

You can probably get dry ice at a local ice cream store. If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #81 on: 19/05/2015 05:04:33 »
You can use a cloud chamber to "see" subatomic particles, including protons. The nifty thing about this is that you (YOU) can build one at home!
Wow, that's cool! Thanks for this, project for when granddaughter is a little older (I'll put it on ice for the moment).
Just located a dry ice source a few miles away, I wonder if freezer gel packs do,perhaps combined with the slush you describe? Not sure how cold it needs to be, maybe putting it in the freezer for a while would help?
« Last Edit: 19/05/2015 05:22:30 by Colin2B »
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #82 on: 19/05/2015 05:27:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd
If I were a philosopher (which thank the Lord I'm not, sir) I would say that you never observe a cow but only respond to the photons reflected from it. From which we can deduce that philosophers can't eat meat or drink milk because these are the products of something whose existence we can't actually observe.
Where did you ever get such an impression from, Alan? That's totally new to me. In fact I strongly disagree with this assertion. If a philosopher ever made such an assertion then I'd say that philosopher was a very poor philosopher.

Let's talk about what observation really means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation
Quote
Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source.
Therefore observation of a cow means to collect information regarding the cow's presence. If one observes a cow only by sight then that completely entails the collection of light coming off the cow. So the cow is actually being observed when one "sees" the light coming off the cow.

You can read more about this here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/science-theory-observation/#DatPhe
Quote
One answer to this question assumes that observation is a perceptual process so that to observe is to look at, listen to, touch, taste, or smell something, attending to details of the resulting perceptual experience.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #83 on: 19/05/2015 18:45:54 »
You can use a cloud chamber to "see" subatomic particles, including protons. The nifty thing about this is that you (YOU) can build one at home!

Here is a link to a pdf that describes the background and has a how-to guide

http://xraise.classe.cornell.edu/document/cloudchamber.pdf

Proving the identity of the particles that this instrument detects requires a much more specialized instrument, but I guarantee that it is capable of detecting protons, electrons, alpha particles and more!

You can probably get dry ice at a local ice cream store. If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

Blimey.........

I am not in a position of enough knowledge of this to question this, so at this time I have to agree that you can observe Protons etc.

Maybe you are more advanced than I first thought.

I do not wish to get in a discussion of what observation means, it certainty is not just reflective light that would suggest a holographic Universe.  Also I can snap a branch of a tree and take it home, so I know the tree is real.

In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?

The glowing line spacing of the black dots? 

if so, how do you know the black dot is not emitting the line spacing?


PePePePe 


gravity   P><P


expansion of metals   +E=P>><<P=PeeeeP



where P is proton and e is electron field and E is energy and <> is direction

is this what happens in metal or gases?


Is P><P also related to the Proton-Proton chain?  (the sun version)

Also is matter a proton>><<proton hexagonal chain, like a bike chain.?






« Last Edit: 19/05/2015 19:08:24 by Thebox »

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #84 on: 19/05/2015 23:13:13 »
If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

How well does that work compared to dry ice?

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #85 on: 20/05/2015 09:23:52 »
In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?

The glowing line spacing of the black dots? 

if so, how do you know the black dot is not emitting the line spacing
............ Etc
This reminds me of a conversation between our children when the youngest was 7. The older ones were learning about DNA and discussing a diagram, she had been following intently and suddenly asked "how do they get the little letters on the genes?". There was silence for a moment, then she discovered that siblings, like forum members, can be very direct at times.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline evan_au

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #86 on: 20/05/2015 11:15:09 »
Quote from: TheBox
In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?
When you observe hot atoms through a spectroscope, you see a pattern of bright lines. These bright lines are light of different frequencies, which have different energies. These gave early indications that electrons in the atom had different energy levels.
This technique was developed by Fraunhofer in the early 1800s.

Quote from: TheBox
You see an atom yes, ...but you do not observe or see any components.
Two components of an atom can be distinguished fairly easily (with technology from the early 1900s):
  • The electrons interact with light (see above), and they shield the internal positive nucleus
  • The positive nucleus is very small compared to the whole atom, and carries an intense positive charge
  • This was demonstrated by Geiger, Marsden & Rutherford, in 1913.
  • The outer electrons interact with light of various wavelengths, in the visible, ultraviolet or infra-red range.
  • In contrast, the much higher energies found in the nucleus result in emission of electromagnetic energy in the gamma-ray region of the spectrum
  • Modern MRI machines work by manipulating the spin of the nucleus of the atoms in your body. Different atoms can be observed using different frequencies and different magnetic fields.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #87 on: 20/05/2015 12:31:26 »

Therefore observation of a cow means to collect information regarding the cow's presence. If one observes a cow only by sight then that completely entails the collection of light coming off the cow. So the cow is actually being observed when one "sees" the light coming off the cow.



Being a physicist and not a philosopher, I offer you a bunch of photons reflected from a cow, and another group of photons from a really good hologram of a cow. Did you observe the cow? How do you know? Then a really clever neurologist triggers the memory of a cow in your brain, and the question becomes even more complicated.
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #88 on: 20/05/2015 13:01:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd
Being a physicist and not a philosopher, I offer you a bunch of photons reflected from a cow, and another group of photons from a really good hologram of a cow. Did you observe the cow? How do you know? Then a really clever neurologist triggers the memory of a cow in your brain, and the question becomes even more complicated.
There's a difference between the necessary and the sufficient conditions of seeing a cow. The necessary condition is seeing the photons. That's hardly sufficient reason to assert that the cow is there.

So if a cow emits photons and I see them then I'm seeing a cow. The converse is not true. That I see photons that look like a cow it doesn't mean that there's a cow there.

Recall what I said - The cow is actually being observed when one "sees" the light coming off the cow.

This can't be taken to imply that the converse is true, i.e. that if one sees light coming from what appears to be a cow that one is actually seeing a cow.

Understand my point now?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #89 on: 20/05/2015 14:32:55 »
Peter: Next time I'm in New England, we'll count the angels on a pinhead, using a beer glass as a bubble chamber. Better yet, we'll take the average of several beer glasses. It's not often I get to acknowledge a superior nitpicker!
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #90 on: 20/05/2015 14:52:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd
Peter: Next time I'm in New England, we'll count the angels on a pinhead, using a beer glass as a bubble chamber. Better yet, we'll take the average of several beer glasses. It's not often I get to acknowledge a superior nitpicker!
Sometimes I can't tell whether you're trying to make a joke or whether you're trying to insult me. This is a good example.

This is an important point to make about what constitutes observation in physics and the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions for determining whether something is true or not. So its far from nitpicking.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #91 on: 20/05/2015 15:48:38 »
I never joke about beer. And being British, I only insult my best friends.
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Offline jccc

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #92 on: 20/05/2015 17:01:52 »
I never joke about beer. And being British, I only insult my best friends.

ALL SCIENTISTS DO THAT

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #93 on: 20/05/2015 19:02:15 »
If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

How well does that work compared to dry ice?

I don't know how well the slush works compared to the dry ice, but it should suffice. The temperature gradient across the apparatus is the important thing here. Dry ice will get you down to about –75° C whereas the isopropanol slush will only get down to about –20° C or so. Not nearly as cold, so the position at which the cloud forms within the apparatus will be lower in the slush version than with the dry ice, but a little finagling should allow it to work...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #94 on: 20/05/2015 19:07:47 »
Quote from: TheBox
In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?
When you observe hot atoms through a spectroscope, you see a pattern of bright lines. These bright lines are light of different frequencies, which have different energies. These gave early indications that electrons in the atom had different energy levels.
This technique was developed by Fraunhofer in the early 1800s.

Quote from: TheBox
You see an atom yes, ...but you do not observe or see any components.
Two components of an atom can be distinguished fairly easily (with technology from the early 1900s):
  • The electrons interact with light (see above), and they shield the internal positive nucleus
  • The positive nucleus is very small compared to the whole atom, and carries an intense positive charge
  • This was demonstrated by Geiger, Marsden & Rutherford, in 1913.
  • The outer electrons interact with light of various wavelengths, in the visible, ultraviolet or infra-red range.
  • In contrast, the much higher energies found in the nucleus result in emission of electromagnetic energy in the gamma-ray region of the spectrum
  • Modern MRI machines work by manipulating the spin of the nucleus of the atoms in your body. Different atoms can be observed using different frequencies and different magnetic fields.


Thank you for taking time to post this information.

''these bright lines are light of different frequencies, which have different energies. These gave early indications that electrons in the atom had different energy levels.''


Hot atoms!  so by thermodynamics they increase their energy entropy and release heat, light, radiation to maintain an energy equilibrium.  The more gain of energy the more release of energy. 

Would that be a true statement?

How would this differ from your spectroscope observation, bright variable frequency light lines?

One seems like the other to me, and seemingly the black dot emits the radiated energy , electromagnetic wave?

Why is it presumed the other way and an electron is attached to a Proton, or are you saying that the black dot is the electron shell?

In a weird sense, could Protons attract to a proton, and compress and capture Photons/EM radiation between them?

P>emr<P








« Last Edit: 20/05/2015 19:13:12 by Thebox »

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Offline evan_au

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #95 on: 21/05/2015 12:59:27 »
Quote from: TheBox
spectroscope observation (of) bright variable frequency light lines?
The effect of spectral lines which move over time is seen when two stars orbit each other. With these "spectroscopic binaries", the star moves towards and away from us as it orbits its companion. This causes the spectral lines to become more red and then more blue, periodically.

With large telescopes and very precise specroscopes, it is even possible to detect the small motion of a star due to the orbit of planets around that star.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #96 on: 21/05/2015 17:04:29 »
I don't know how well the slush works compared to the dry ice, but it should suffice. The temperature gradient across the apparatus is the important thing here. Dry ice will get you down to about –75° C whereas the isopropanol slush will only get down to about –20° C or so. Not nearly as cold, so the position at which the cloud forms within the apparatus will be lower in the slush version than with the dry ice, but a little finagling should allow it to work...

Thanks for the info - I think I understand how it works now, and what's needed to improve the functionality of it. Perhaps an old fire extinguisher (that probably still works but needs to be replaced) could be used to cool ordinary ice down further. I had always thought the presence of lots of vapour off the dry ice was key to it working, but it appears that that isn't the case - it now looks as if it's all about providing a low temperature and having warmer air containing water as a gas that's supercooled and just waiting to turn liquid as soon as something triggers it to do so. The less vapour there is, the better it should show up when a vapour trail appears.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #97 on: 22/05/2015 18:36:53 »
Quote from: TheBox
spectroscope observation (of) bright variable frequency light lines?
The effect of spectral lines which move over time is seen when two stars orbit each other. With these "spectroscopic binaries", the star moves towards and away from us as it orbits its companion. This causes the spectral lines to become more red and then more blue, periodically.

With large telescopes and very precise specroscopes, it is even possible to detect the small motion of a star due to the orbit of planets around that star.


I do not know how or why we went from atoms to stars but I am familiar with light red shift and blue shift between the stars, Doppler shift.

An object moving away from light, will red shift, an object travelling towards the light will blue shift.

As you already may be aware, I consider this an equal and opposite reaction,

I consider red shift is the force surface pressure of EMR decreasing and blue shift to be a force surface pressure of EMR increase of the object.

Showing a blue spectral frequency of a more compressed wavelength of light, and a red longer wavelength, velocity of the object defining the force compression on the surface of object by the EMR.

This is the reason I believe the sky is blue and also a red sky at night,

I see a red sky at night , the sun is going down , away from me, as the sun moves away from me, I am also moving away from the Sun. 

Would this work when comparing  earth and sun orbit?




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Offline jccc

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #98 on: 22/05/2015 19:12:59 »
yes, earth rotation will cause light color shift, we know earth rotation speed, we can compare the sunlight shift degree with star light shift degree to calculate the expending speed of the star.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #99 on: 23/05/2015 18:01:26 »
This is the reason I believe the sky is blue and also a red sky at night,

I see a red sky at night , the sun is going down , away from me, as the sun moves away from me, I am also moving away from the Sun.

Are you moving away from the sun at sunset? Yes. Are you moving towards it at sunrise? Yes. So, the sky should start blue (no red skies in the morning), then it should be greeen by the middle of the day, then it should be red every evening. Is that what you see? How fast would the Earth have to rotate in order to create such visible shifts in frequency? Think it through.
« Last Edit: 23/05/2015 18:03:58 by David Cooper »