Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.

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Offline Thebox

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Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« on: 11/05/2015 21:24:10 »
In reading several topics on various things over several years , and countless internet forum time , I have come to a concern that psuedo science is being quoted and stated to be facts and true.

In question are -

time dilation - a change in any output of any arbitrary time device has no effect on time.

space time - not observed, time is ageless in and of a space.

SR - uses the time dilation calculation in its own calculation,

expanding space - space can not be observed as moving.

the big bang - a prequel, and also said space expanding in the theory making it null and void

These are just a few off the top of my head.





« Last Edit: 11/05/2015 21:39:34 by Thebox »

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #1 on: 11/05/2015 22:48:37 »
I agree with you that treating pseudoscience as science is poor form, but I disagree with you over all of your examples of pseudoscience. Just because you, yourself, do not understand the reason that these theories are accepted (and experimentally supported) does not make them pseudoscience.

Pseudoscience and science, are actually processes rather than sets of proposed facts/theories. The difference them is that pseudoscience relies on "reason" and "logic" whereas science depends on validation, modification and rejection of theories. It would appear from most of your posts recently that the former is more appealing to you.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #2 on: 11/05/2015 23:58:27 »
The difference them is that pseudoscience relies on "reason" and "logic" whereas science depends on validation, modification and rejection of theories.
I would add that the pseudoscience relies on "reason" and "logic" which I assume you have put in quotes because they are usually faulty.
Also the theories rejected by science are the faulty ones that cannot be verified.

Pseudoscience also claims simple, visualisable explanations. It claims solutions to fundamental properties for which science is prepared to say 'we don't know ...... yet'
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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #3 on: 12/05/2015 03:40:26 »
Quote from: Thebox
In question are -
In question? Bullsh*t. They more certainly are NOT in question. Just because someone with ZERO education in physics can't grasp something in no way makes them in question. It figures that you'd say something that bogus.

Quote from: Thebox
time dilation - a change in any output of any arbitrary time device has no effect on time.

space time - not observed, time is ageless in and of a space.

SR - uses the time dilation calculation in its own calculation,

expanding space - space can not be observed as moving.

the big bang - a prequel, and also said space expanding in the theory making it null and void
First of all, the comments after them are nonsense and as such false in that they're unrelated or just plain wrong.

In the second place, nothing in what you just posted fits the definition of pseudoscience. This is just another example of your ignorance from not actually picking up a book and reading. Pseudoscience is not science that's wrong. That's just a wrong theory. Pseudoscience is an entirely different thing. I already explained that earlier.

So here we are, you're so wrong yet once again. You're never going to stop making these mistakes until you start reading physics texts and philosophy of science texts. Recall what a pseudoscientist does
Quote
1. First and foremost of these traits is that [they] work in almost total isolation from their colleagues ... isolation in the sense of having no fruitful contacts with fellow researchers.

2. The pseudoscientist submits his or her work not to bona fide experts in the field but to the general public, though the general public is not qualified to evaluate it.

3. The pseudoscientist speaks through organizations he or she has founded, thus avoiding genuine peer review and conveying an aura of professional expertise.

4. The pseudoscientist considers himself or herself to be a genius (most likely misunderstood and persecuted).

5. The pseudoscientist regards colleagues to be, almost without exception, "blockheads".

6. The pseudoscientist compares himself to Galileo, Bruno, Pasteur, or other well-known, well-respected scientists whose work met initial hostility and resistance. The pseudoscientist repeatedly cites comparisons between his or her view and historical cases of persecution of true genius, which was initially misunderstood. (This functions as a form of fallacy of positioning).

7. The pseudoscientist exhibits a strong compulsion to focus criticism on the greatest scientists and/or best-established theories of the day.

8. The pseudoscientist tends to write in a complex jargon often making use of phrases, terms and locutions he or she has coined. This rhetoric can be quite persuasive, creating a beautifully crafted jigsaw puzzle of assertions. Clever use of circular reasoning, equivocations, and other persuasive tricks makes it difficult to refute pseudoscience by logic and authentic scientific evidence.
None of the theories you mentioned fit in with this. I.e. no scientist who works in those fields are pseudoscientists.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 04:51:38 by PmbPhy »

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #4 on: 12/05/2015 18:34:48 »
In reading several topics on various things over several years , and countless internet forum time , I have come to a concern that psuedo science is being quoted and stated to be facts and true.

You are not entirely wrong - many people overstate the case for their mainstream theories.

Quote
time dilation - a change in any output of any arbitrary time device has no effect on time.

That may well be true, but it depends on what you mean by "time". Einstein uses a kind of time in his model which is quite different from what you have in mind.

Quote
space time - not observed, time is ageless in and of a space.

Spacetime is a viable feature of one model of reality - nature really could have such a structure.

Quote
SR - uses the time dilation calculation in its own calculation,

Analysis of anything ends up reaching circularity.

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expanding space - space can not be observed as moving.

The microwave background fits with a theory that says it started out as light but was stretched - that stretching can only be accounted for by an expansion of space. It is the most likely explanation of what we see. You need to do the work and provide a better theory if you can. The evidence is that you have insufficient knowledge to be in a position to do this at the moment, and that it will take you a very long time to catch up with the many people who have tried to find alternative explanations and who have then rejected them.

Quote
the big bang - a prequel, and also said space expanding in the theory making it null and void

The evidence makes it look as if there was a big bang - again it is the most likely explanation of what we see, and again you need to do the work and provide a better theory if you can.

Quote
These are just a few off the top of my head.

Don't worry - we've already heard the rest from you many times. As I told you before, you need to focus in on one or two things and become an expert in that/those area(s) rather than talking about everything out of extreme ignorance.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #5 on: 12/05/2015 18:42:43 »
I rest my case , again you defend Psuedo science that does not have  hard evidence.  You are convinced the things I mention are real, when they have no evidence.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #6 on: 12/05/2015 18:46:55 »
I will firstly start my argument by asking you to provide evidence supporting the psuedo science you say is fact,

Firstly I ask you to provide a time dilation evidence, I ask you to show how time is effected by a dilation, bare in mind arbitrary clocks are arbitrary, your atomic clock is arbitrary.

Let us see how science can try to windle its way around this one.

I rule out the atomic clock and the keating experiment, the clock is arbitrary therefore you have no time dilation, call it a timing dilation and yes i will accept that.

« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 18:52:59 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #7 on: 12/05/2015 19:24:57 »
Please define a non-arbitrary clock.

And note that the theoretical equations of relativity do not specify what sort of clock you can use. It just happens, remarkably, that if you use an atomic closk (that was invented a long time after Einstein's publications on relativity) you get the answer Einstein predicted. Sheer luck? Not entirely, because it doesn't seem to matter whether you use a rubidium, caesium or krypton clock.   

And if you don't make the appropriate relativistic corrections to your GPS clock, you miss the runway by just enough distance to kill everyone. So for the time being I'll stick with Einstein rather than Mr Box.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 19:28:40 by alancalverd »
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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #8 on: 12/05/2015 19:33:19 »
Please define a non-arbitrary clock.

And note that the theoretical equations of relativity do not specify what sort of clock you can use. It just happens, remarkably, that if you use an atomic closk (that was invented a long time after Einstein's publications on relativity) you get the answer Einstein predicted. Sheer luck? Not entirely, because it doesn't seem to matter whether you use a rubidium, caesium or krypton clock.


There is no such thing as a none arbitrary clock.   All your clocks are arbitrary and pretty meaningless.   

I asked for evidence?


evidence I know you do not actually have.

therefore ''time dilation'' is an experiment that shows nothing more than a constant time keeper failure, that shows a timing change of the clocks,


I ask you to provide proof to show that this arbitrary clock, no dissimilar to a wall clock, alters time?

Please do not insist that the caesium atom is time itself, we all know that is not true.

p.s I am not saying you do not witness a timing dilation as used in gps.  I am saying you do not witness a time dilation in any sense.

very simply place a stick in the ground and attach a 1 meter lng piece of string with a ball on the end of the string, orbit the ball, zig zag the ball while in orbit, I bet you right now that the string is always 1 meter in length, I bet you the light reflecting off the ball is straight to your eyes, and always the same distant if you hold the stick

radius does not alter......consider being central of a sphere, r always equals r.

Your very definition is what makes it psuedo, suggesting that time itself is effected in comparison by a clock with a flat battery that runs slow.

Call it a timing dilation, it becomes true fact and does not suggest that time itself is altered in any way.

This way science will be understood and no longer will crackpots argue this.


see here where I tell it straight.  I have drawn you SR



http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36878&p=1369633#p1369633

page 570


« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 20:22:52 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #9 on: 12/05/2015 20:32:29 »
Moving on , I ask for evidence of a space-time when space is obviously immortal.

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #10 on: 12/05/2015 21:46:22 »
This forum is not a soap box to stand on and deride any and every scientific theory out there. The New Theories section is here to propose and discuss alternative theories, one at a time.

ThBox, no one has to defend commonly accepted science against your inane questions and attacks. This thread is dangerously close to turning into a troll-fest, and I will not hesitate to close this thread (as my first action as a moderator) if I see it begin to deteriorate further!

I suggest to anyone who has questions about why/how a specific theory was formulated, and what evidence supports or challenges that theory: start a thread about a particular theory and stay on topic!

Thank you.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #11 on: 12/05/2015 22:08:51 »
This forum is not a soap box to stand on and deride any and every scientific theory out there. The New Theories section is here to propose and discuss alternative theories, one at a time.

ThBox, no one has to defend commonly accepted science against your inane questions and attacks. This thread is dangerously close to turning into a troll-fest, and I will not hesitate to close this thread (as my first action as a moderator) if I see it begin to deteriorate further!

I suggest to anyone who has questions about why/how a specific theory was formulated, and what evidence supports or challenges that theory: start a thread about a particular theory and stay on topic!

Thank you.

Oh no, I will banned rather quickly no doubt now you are a moderator.

My theory is not a theory about any specific subject, it is a theory that science persists in attributing content as fact when science can not back it up with solid evidence.
I have asked for evidence to show how an arbitrary clock such as the Caesium clock can in any way effect time itself.

I have been provided no link of evidence, therefore the evidence must not exist.

I accept a timing dilation, I do not accept a time dilation based on no evidence with no support or even attempted debate by yourselves and this forum. 

Two very different concepts indeed are timing dilations and a ''time dilation''.

You and I are not infinite in our existence.

We are timing our existence by counting how many times we orbit the Sun.

Like always  when science is put under any sort of logical pressure it fails to answer,



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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #12 on: 13/05/2015 00:36:05 »
ThBox, no one has to defend commonly accepted science against your inane questions and attacks. This thread is dangerously close to turning into a troll-fest, and I will not hesitate to close this thread (as my first action as a moderator) if I see it begin to deteriorate further!
I'm afraid we are back to TB's original post in which it is obvious he does not understand the basic measurement of the passage of time aka time. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=54560.0

If we take this statement:
I have asked for evidence to show how an arbitrary clock such as the Caesium clock can in any way effect time itself.

We all know, and he knows, that it is impossible to provide evidence for something which does not happen. A caesium clock DOES NOT affect time, never has, never does, never will. It doesn't even affect a timing dilation. If 2 cars travel from the same point to the same destination via 2 different routes, no one in their right mind would suggest that the odometers are responsible for the difference in distance measurement, anyone who did would be considered an idiot making inane comments. This has been covered in yet another Box post.
The fundamental problem is TB's lack of understanding of any basic concept of physics and his insistence on his own theories and definitions, any explanation is automatically dismissed, without being fully understood. Even schoolchildren learning physics would not make errors of this magnitude. It is impossible to explain anything to him because of this lack of understanding and his troll like behaviour.

I say troll like, because I am coming to the conclusion that this behaviour is deliberate and intended to disrupt and occupy resources of this forum. I can quite understand why he has been banned from other forums, and I have reason to believe he was considered a troll in those.
« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 09:13:08 by Colin2B »
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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #13 on: 13/05/2015 12:08:33 »
This forum is not a soap box to stand on and deride any and every scientific theory out there. The New Theories section is here to propose and discuss alternative theories, one at a time.

ThBox, no one has to defend commonly accepted science against your inane questions and attacks. This thread is dangerously close to turning into a troll-fest, and I will not hesitate to close this thread (as my first action as a moderator) if I see it begin to deteriorate further!

I suggest to anyone who has questions about why/how a specific theory was formulated, and what evidence supports or challenges that theory: start a thread about a particular theory and stay on topic!

Thank you.

Oh no, I will banned rather quickly no doubt now you are a moderator.

My theory is not a theory about any specific subject, it is a theory that science persists in attributing content as fact when science can not back it up with solid evidence.
I have asked for evidence to show how an arbitrary clock such as the Caesium clock can in any way effect time itself.


Clocks do not affect time, they record it. If this isn't apparent to you then you are worse off than I thought. It is really a waste of time anyone even attempting a conversation with you because you just want to argue for the sake of it. You say nothing useful unless it is purely by accident.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #14 on: 13/05/2015 17:38:16 »
I rest my case , again you defend Psuedo science that does not have  hard evidence.  You are convinced the things I mention are real, when they have no evidence.

Did I defend it? Read my words more carefully:-

Quote
Quote
time dilation - a change in any output of any arbitrary time device has no effect on time.

That may well be true, but it depends on what you mean by "time". Einstein uses a kind of time in his model which is quite different from what you have in mind.

When Einstein talks about time, he's referring to a "time" dimension, and within his model there is time dilation. It is therefore a fact that time dilation occurs within his model, but it is not a fact that his model is correct - it is a theory.

The best clock to think about when exploring this is a light clock - that is the purest kind of clock because it uses the speed of light directly rather than using any kind of device that is governed by forces that are transferred at the speed of light - when you use such clocks you are effectively using a light clock too, but you are hiding that under a more complex mechanism.

If you move a light clock through space, the light has further to travel through space before it can complete a tick, so the clock runs slow. At no point does the light run slow though, so there is no slowing of time itself, unless you want to warp things through a theory like Einstein's, in which case the moving clock is following a different route through Spacetime in which the passage of "time" is matched to the light clock and "slows" with it, but this "time" is the "time" dimension kind of time and the "slowing" is only officially a perceived slowing from the point of view of some observers. I don't think it stacks up (and here's why: http://www.magicschoolbook.com/science/relativity.html - Einstein's model needs a Newtonian time added to it to make it work), but you need to understand what you're attacking before you start throwing stones at it.

Quote
Moving on , I ask for evidence of a space-time when space is obviously immortal.

I defended Spacetime before by saying "Spacetime is a viable feature of one model of reality - nature really could have such a structure". Even with my objections to Einstein's theory, it is possible to modify it in such a way that Spacetime appears to be fully compatible with reality. If you read the stuff at the link I gave you you'll find that out. Once you've done that you'll be in a better position to attack the mainstream on this, but Spacetime will still be there as part of a viable model.


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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #15 on: 13/05/2015 18:15:32 »
ThBox, no one has to defend commonly accepted science against your inane questions and attacks. This thread is dangerously close to turning into a troll-fest, and I will not hesitate to close this thread (as my first action as a moderator) if I see it begin to deteriorate further!
I'm afraid we are back to TB's original post in which it is obvious he does not understand the basic measurement of the passage of time aka time. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=54560.0

If we take this statement:
I have asked for evidence to show how an arbitrary clock such as the Caesium clock can in any way effect time itself.

We all know, and he knows, that it is impossible to provide evidence for something which does not happen. A caesium clock DOES NOT affect time, never has, never does, never will. It doesn't even affect a timing dilation. If 2 cars travel from the same point to the same destination via 2 different routes, no one in their right mind would suggest that the odometers are responsible for the difference in distance measurement, anyone who did would be considered an idiot making inane comments. This has been covered in yet another Box post.
The fundamental problem is TB's lack of understanding of any basic concept of physics and his insistence on his own theories and definitions, any explanation is automatically dismissed, without being fully understood. Even schoolchildren learning physics would not make errors of this magnitude. It is impossible to explain anything to him because of this lack of understanding and his troll like behaviour.

I say troll like, because I am coming to the conclusion that this behaviour is deliberate and intended to disrupt and occupy resources of this forum. I can quite understand why he has been banned from other forums, and I have reason to believe he was considered a troll in those.

I know this, this is my whole point of the suggestive definition of time dilation, provoking thought in people that science thinks time is altered when the time dilation occurs.

The title alone suggests it, science have had me arguing about an arbitrary change of a timing keeper for several years by a definition of suggestive content. All forums have argued a time dilation occurs, I have argued it does not because the Caesium clock is arbitrary , no different to a wall clock.

It is their mistake in mixing up time and an arbitrary time keeper, and also my mistake for thinking the reality of time and not  considering you were simply arguing about a change in arbitrary time/timing.

Thank you Colin for understanding and agreeing with me.






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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #16 on: 13/05/2015 18:37:52 »
space-time

''Spacetime is a viable feature of one model of reality''

Defended as if it were proven fact and not only a theory of psuedo type qualities.  There is actually no evidence of a space-time, the only dimensions of time that exist in space are ourselves or any other matter that has a state of decay.

True or false?

is there any evidence to show a time exists in space or of a space?, a said space time?


I will remind you of psuedo definition

''a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific''



« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 18:40:41 by Thebox »

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #17 on: 13/05/2015 18:49:08 »

The title alone suggests it, science have had me arguing about an arbitrary change of a timing keeper for several years by a definition of suggestive content. All forums have argued a time dilation occurs, I have argued it does not because the Caesium clock is arbitrary , no different to a wall clock.

It is their mistake in mixing up time and an arbitrary time keeper, and also my mistake for thinking the reality of time and not  considering you were simply arguing about a change in arbitrary time/timing.

Thank you Colin for understanding and agreeing with me.


Colin is not agreeing with you at all. There is no need for any sort of clock for time dilation to occur. It is only with a clock that it is easiest to observe and measure this effect. All time is arbitrary, no matter how it is measured--this discussion of time dilation refers to how two different arbitrary frames of reference would see each other. Please note that "arbitrary" does not imply "useless" or "meaningless."

Also, I will again point out the difference between scientific models and reality. Scientists don't claim to know how and why the universe works--we propose models as ways of understanding and predicting reality. Models can be completely wrong, but still give all the right answers. If the model makes the right predictions and is easy to use, then it is a good model. How the universe "actually" is and works is a philosophical or religious discussion, and I don't think that any human being is capable of understanding the "true" nature of the universe. But we can still engineer computers, and put satellites in orbit around distant planets, moons and asteroids, and create vaccines for diseases, etc. so clearly science is doing something right...

If you want to claim that time itself remains advancing in a constant and unchanging rate, but that everything in the universe perceives its own arbitrary different "modified time" or somehow goes slower, then that is your model. I think one could put this model to good use, but it is less elegant and more difficult to use and interpret, and ultimately makes the same predictions (if used correctly). So good luck convincing anyone to use this model.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #18 on: 13/05/2015 19:06:17 »


If you want to claim that time itself remains advancing in a constant and unchanging rate, but that everything in the universe perceives its own arbitrary different "modified time" or somehow goes slower, then that is your model. I think one could put this model to good use, but it is less elegant and more difficult to use and interpret, and ultimately makes the same predictions (if used correctly). So good luck convincing anyone to use this model.


''If you want to claim that time itself remains advancing in a constant and unchanging rate''

Time itself does not exist unless by arbitrary use.   It is impossible to prove time exists other than arbitrary use and the existence of matter.

''but that everything in the universe perceives its own arbitrary different "modified time''


Yes arbitrary time is dependent to the matter/object or observer.  And dependent to gravitational flux.

and this is a paradox that gives the same answers, arbitrary time is the timing of something.







« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 19:08:25 by Thebox »

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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #19 on: 13/05/2015 20:01:36 »


''If you want to claim that time itself remains advancing in a constant and unchanging rate''

Time itself does not exist unless by arbitrary use.   It is impossible to prove time exists other than arbitrary use and the existence of matter.

''but that everything in the universe perceives its own arbitrary different "modified time''


Yes arbitrary time is dependent to the matter/object or observer.  And dependent to gravitational flux.

and this is a paradox that gives the same answers, arbitrary time is the timing of something.

Ok. So what's the problem with the way that scientists use time? (hint: we know it's arbitrary)

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #20 on: 13/05/2015 20:23:19 »


''If you want to claim that time itself remains advancing in a constant and unchanging rate''

Time itself does not exist unless by arbitrary use.   It is impossible to prove time exists other than arbitrary use and the existence of matter.

''but that everything in the universe perceives its own arbitrary different "modified time''


Yes arbitrary time is dependent to the matter/object or observer.  And dependent to gravitational flux.

and this is a paradox that gives the same answers, arbitrary time is the timing of something.

Ok. So what's the problem with the way that scientists use time? (hint: we know it's arbitrary)

I have not mentioned  there is a problem with how scientists use time, I think  that is quite genius. 

My argument is about time dilation not being what it seems, we know there is no actual time dilation. We actually observe in science and shown by the Keating experiment a timing dilation by gravitational flux and velocity.

Admitted this does not effect ''real time'', so to call it a time dilation is wrong and open to crackpots such as myself.

real time is dimensionless , dimensions travel through real time, dimensions add points of observation, points of observation add universal shape that is not real, what you imagine and observe tells you lies, the observer effect as always played a part, interference by humanity is not a result but simply us mimicking that is around us, the universe of matter and space, could be really really small but at the same time be really really big, perception must be logically understood.





« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 20:32:52 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #21 on: 13/05/2015 21:00:27 »
a spaceship travels 100 mile into space and back again, a caesium clock on the spaceship shows an arbitrary time dilation. the distance of 100 miles is a constant, c does not alter over that constant.

This also shows arbitrary time  is dependent to an observer or object.
« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 21:08:41 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #23 on: 14/05/2015 00:39:41 »
a spaceship travels 100 mile into space and back again, a caesium clock on the spaceship shows an arbitrary time dilation. the distance of 100 miles is a constant, c does not alter over that constant.

This also shows arbitrary time  is dependent to an observer or object.
I don't know why you think I agree with you. I don't think you really read my posts.

The effect we call time dilation is not arbitrary, it is real. The travelling twin is really younger on return. The distance is not 100miles for the traveller, that's why it takes less time to travel that you would expect.
As has been said before, caesium has nothing to do with it.

Your attempt to define time as arbitrary is pointless, no physicist considers it to be absolute. Your attempt to define it as distance is also pointless. As has been said before you do not understanding measurement, how could you, you don't even understand numbers. That time is arbitrary is even understood by the general population, here when it is midday the French call it 1pm, in New York they would say 7am; this is why we define UTC for when it is important to translate between time zones.  At one point the French even tried to introduce the 10 hour day.
This has been discussed before, however to reiterate, both temperature and pressure are measured as a distance of mercury, this does not make them a distance. Temperature scales are arbitrary, this is why at least 8 exist. With temperature we are usually specific if we are talking about a point on the scale, or a change. With time colloquial usage allows the same term for both. When measuring speed we take the distance traveled divided by the time taken to travel that distance, usually written x/t, distance over time. Strictly speaking we should say change of distance over change of time dx/dt and physicists often do this when necessary. Note that I say change of distance, because distance is always measured from a reference point (which is usually implied to be point 0), however again common usage allows us to refer to the change of distance as plain distance and no one is pedantic enough to argue the point - I'm surprised you haven't.
This measurement of time is extremely useful and is essential to the work of Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Faraday, etc. This is the difference between science and pseudoscience, the former is useful, it makes predictions and allows us to design systems which work. It does not imply anything about what time is as a fundamental concept, it does not need to. That is the role of philosophy and theoretical physics, and there are far more ideas on the nature of time than the limited one you allude to.

Your pointless arguments are obscure, and detract from, the ideas I think you really want to make. You present them in a confused terminology, with an affected street talk, never focused and coherent. If you presented them in a clear manner, without the confused wording and background agenda, you would find more people agreeing with you in some areas. These ideas are not new to science or philosophy, but science has dealt with them and moved on. Reread ChiralSPO's post #17, try to understand what he is saying rather than misinterpreting it, it is an important message.

As you insist on misinterpreting my posts, I see no point in writing them.

« Last Edit: 14/05/2015 07:13:40 by Colin2B »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #24 on: 14/05/2015 17:41:48 »
Quote
the Caesium clock is arbitrary , no different to a wall clock.

Wrong. The mechanism of an atomic clock is unaffected by acceleration, whcih is why they are used to measure time whenever we need to take account of relativistic effects.

You cannot measure other people's knowledge and experience against your ignorance and prejudice. The axes are orthogonal.
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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #25 on: 14/05/2015 19:17:23 »
a spaceship travels 100 mile into space and back again, a caesium clock on the spaceship shows an arbitrary time dilation. the distance of 100 miles is a constant, c does not alter over that constant.

This also shows arbitrary time  is dependent to an observer or object.
I don't know why you think I agree with you. I don't think you really read my posts.

The effect we call time dilation is not arbitrary, it is real. The travelling twin is really younger on return. The distance is not 100miles for the traveller, that's why it takes less time to travel that you would expect.
As has been said before, caesium has nothing to do with it.

Your attempt to define time as arbitrary is pointless, no physicist considers it to be absolute. Your attempt to define it as distance is also pointless. As has been said before you do not understanding measurement, how could you, you don't even understand numbers. That time is arbitrary is even understood by the general population, here when it is midday the French call it 1pm, in New York they would say 7am; this is why we define UTC for when it is important to translate between time zones.  At one point the French even tried to introduce the 10 hour day.
This has been discussed before, however to reiterate, both temperature and pressure are measured as a distance of mercury, this does not make them a distance. Temperature scales are arbitrary, this is why at least 8 exist. With temperature we are usually specific if we are talking about a point on the scale, or a change. With time colloquial usage allows the same term for both. When measuring speed we take the distance traveled divided by the time taken to travel that distance, usually written x/t, distance over time. Strictly speaking we should say change of distance over change of time dx/dt and physicists often do this when necessary. Note that I say change of distance, because distance is always measured from a reference point (which is usually implied to be point 0), however again common usage allows us to refer to the change of distance as plain distance and no one is pedantic enough to argue the point - I'm surprised you haven't.
This measurement of time is extremely useful and is essential to the work of Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Faraday, etc. This is the difference between science and pseudoscience, the former is useful, it makes predictions and allows us to design systems which work. It does not imply anything about what time is as a fundamental concept, it does not need to. That is the role of philosophy and theoretical physics, and there are far more ideas on the nature of time than the limited one you allude to.

Your pointless arguments are obscure, and detract from, the ideas I think you really want to make. You present them in a confused terminology, with an affected street talk, never focused and coherent. If you presented them in a clear manner, without the confused wording and background agenda, you would find more people agreeing with you in some areas. These ideas are not new to science or philosophy, but science has dealt with them and moved on. Reread ChiralSPO's post #17, try to understand what he is saying rather than misinterpreting it, it is an important message.

As you insist on misinterpreting my posts, I see no point in writing them.

Apologies I put you name instead of David.


this quote

''We all know, and he knows, that it is impossible to provide evidence for something which does not happen. A caesium clock DOES NOT affect time, never has, never does, never will.''

quoting you

''Your attempt to define it as distance is also pointless. ''  I never define it as a distance, I define c . the speed of light over a distance which is always a constant.


You really should think about what I write, 100 mile round trip, the clock shows a time dilation, light does not alter a round trip.




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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #26 on: 14/05/2015 19:23:07 »
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.


one ship goes south  and one ship goes north, both show a time dilation, c does not alter


Look at this below

x
.
.
.
.
.
.
y...........................................c

x is our rocket ship flying left to right following firstly a curvature and then secondly a zig zag path.

our light clock times the event.   and the photon travels left to right and back again at c. 

at y is a caesium clock, on x is also a caesium clock, x shows a dilation of ''time''

y=t at a constant.

x moves to y1, x then moves to x9y2, the distance from x-y decreases,

x then moves to x8y3, the distance to y decreases,

x then moves to x10y4, the distance from y increases.

1cm space, light travels from all corner points to a joining corner point and back again.

Anything inside the volume of 1cm  can not alter this constant.

all 8 dimensional points a constant, space time, the ninth dimensional point arbitrary time that is centralised

Notice we do not add interference of mirrors, human observer effect, because while the sun emits light towards the stars, the stars emit light towards the sun, and all the light travels at the same speed.

You turn on a lamp, the light expansion is twice the speed of light. 



c<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<lamp>>>>>>>>>>>>>>c



In fact it is isotropic, light expands at c*4/3πr3 from the ninth dimension


matter, the ninth dimension, emits light isotropically, light can pass through light undetected in space visually unless by interaction such as a rainbow.

and in honesty I have no idea why I just had these thoughts, something I have read a bit of has sparked my thoughts.

added - something to do with us moving faster than or slower than the speed of light, or because we block the light, and light slows down when we block it and the rest of the light passes us by at the speed of light.

matter slows down light to specific spectral range.....while c flies past.

matter light is negative, star light is positive, when I push you , your matter light repels my matter light...














« Last Edit: 14/05/2015 20:46:08 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #27 on: 15/05/2015 00:19:44 »
Quote
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

Velocity cannot be constant for a round trip, by definition.
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #28 on: 15/05/2015 00:31:15 »
Quote
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

Velocity cannot be constant for a round trip, by definition.
I've lost the plot here Alan, nothing he's saying makes sense:
"light does not alter a round trip, 9th dimension, turn on a lamp,  light expansion is twice the speed of light etc"
He's having us on, troll or taking substance.
I'm wasting my time, better things to do.
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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #29 on: 15/05/2015 18:09:15 »
Quote
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

Velocity cannot be constant for a round trip, by definition.


My error sorry , I have used velocity again in the wrong context.   I understand my error, velocity a change in speed or direction.

Sorry I was thinking a bit lazy again.


The speed is constant of light in a round trip. (and considering light from different directions).



To add for Colin.

Imagine 8 suns that make up the 8 points of a box.   example - 299792458m


(a)......................(b)
.
.
(c)......................(d)


but 3 dimensional of cause.


a-b and a-c are the same distance, it is a cube.


Each point of the cube is a dimension starting orientation with the value zero point space.

From all 8 points travels a photon to an adjoining zero point space. 

It takes 1 second to travel the distance to another point.

This is constant, and a very accurate clock.

Inside of the space cube is matter,the 9th dimension, all the matter moves about, but nothing inside of the cube being matter effects the constant clock.

zig zag all you like , curve as much as you like inside of the space cube, the constant time does not alter in any dimension.


The twin who returns from space as not aged less, both twins timing of their age remains at a constant and remains the same, however the twin who returned from space , had a slower ''metabolic decay'' of himself and will live slightly longer than is twin.

 

 










« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 18:18:37 by Thebox »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #30 on: 15/05/2015 19:38:06 »
Sorry, mate, this is incoherent bullshit. Don't expect any further input from me.
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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #31 on: 15/05/2015 20:12:23 »
Sorry, mate, this is incoherent bullshit. Don't expect any further input from me.

Its not mate , think about it, draw a cube, on each point put a sun that emits light that travels a constant of 299792458m/s  or 1 light second.

299792458m space contains say an earth a sun and a flying aeroplane with Keating onboard with his clock. also is einstein firing lasers in a zig zag fashion, neither effect the constant time of light.

xyz being one dimensional view of space, xyz*8 equals a box



« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 20:18:17 by Thebox »

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #32 on: 15/05/2015 21:30:13 »
The twin who returns from space as not aged less, both twins timing of their age remains at a constant and remains the same, however the twin who returned from space , had a slower ''metabolic decay'' of himself and will live slightly longer than is twin.

That bit isn't bullsh**. The travelling twin has moved through less "time" of the "time" dimension, but has gone through just as much time of the Newtonian time which works along with the "time" dimension in order to co-ordinate the unfolding of events on different paths through Spacetime. The problem is that so people deny that a Newtonian time needs to be added to the model to make SR/GR work correctly because they are happy to work with a version of a theory which has a logical hole in it.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #33 on: 17/05/2015 17:47:57 »
The twin who returns from space as not aged less, both twins timing of their age remains at a constant and remains the same, however the twin who returned from space , had a slower ''metabolic decay'' of himself and will live slightly longer than is twin.

That bit isn't bullsh**. The travelling twin has moved through less "time" of the "time" dimension, but has gone through just as much time of the Newtonian time which works along with the "time" dimension in order to co-ordinate the unfolding of events on different paths through Spacetime. The problem is that so people deny that a Newtonian time needs to be added to the model to make SR/GR work correctly because they are happy to work with a version of a theory which has a logical hole in it.

Dude no, The travelling twin has moved through the exact same amount of space -time ,  but a differential amount of arbitrary time to his dependent time and his twin brothers dependent time,



example

twin 1 (t=123456789)

twin 2 (t=12345678)


twin 1 and 2 (space-time=0 to infinite)


It is much easier to consider our time, existence , to be an allotted amount of time occupying space-time.

There is 2 times.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #34 on: 17/05/2015 19:24:24 »
Dude no, The travelling twin has moved through the exact same amount of space -time ,  but a differential amount of arbitrary time to his dependent time and his twin brothers dependent time,

The travelling twin has moved through less of the "time" dimension kind of time, so you're wrong. If you're trying to describe things through some theory other than Einstein's though, don't use anything resembling the term Spacetime because that makes it look as if you're working with a model in which there is a "time" dimension, and if you are, the travelling twin is moving through less of that kind of time.

Quote
example

twin 1 (t=123456789)

twin 2 (t=12345678)

If that's for a round trip, their clocks will record identical times and you are not working with this universe at all.

Quote
It is much easier to consider our time, existence , to be an allotted amount of time occupying space-time.

The main choices are to have a Newtonian time with at least three space dimensions (as in LET); Spacetime with at least three space dimensions and one "time" dimension (as in SR/GR); or Spacetime with at least three space dimensions, one "time" dimension and a Newtonian time that works in combination with it (as in a more rational, modified version of SR/GR in which a universe can actually develop and mesh correctly).

Quote
There is 2 times.

There are 2 times in just one of those models, but only one in the others. You may have another model in mind, of course, but it appears to be broken because your including Spacetime in it (in name only) without really including Spacetime in it at all.

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #35 on: 17/05/2015 21:09:22 »
Dude no, The travelling twin has moved through the exact same amount of space -time ,  but a differential amount of arbitrary time to his dependent time and his twin brothers dependent time,

The travelling twin has moved through less of the "time" dimension kind of time, so you're wrong. If you're trying to describe things through some theory other than Einstein's though, don't use anything resembling the term Spacetime because that makes it look as if you're working with a model in which there is a "time" dimension, and if you are, the travelling twin is moving through less of that kind of time.

Quote
example

twin 1 (t=123456789)

twin 2 (t=12345678)

If that's for a round trip, their clocks will record identical times and you are not working with this universe at all.

Quote
It is much easier to consider our time, existence , to be an allotted amount of time occupying space-time.

The main choices are to have a Newtonian time with at least three space dimensions (as in LET); Spacetime with at least three space dimensions and one "time" dimension (as in SR/GR); or Spacetime with at least three space dimensions, one "time" dimension and a Newtonian time that works in combination with it (as in a more rational, modified version of SR/GR in which a universe can actually develop and mesh correctly).

Quote
There is 2 times.

There are 2 times in just one of those models, but only one in the others. You may have another model in mind, of course, but it appears to be broken because your including Spacetime in it (in name only) without really including Spacetime in it at all.

How did we get here from Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.

Oh well alls good,

I say space time, to try and get understanding although it may add confusion.  I will call it ''zero point space time.''  I have tried to explain this before.   

The box I earlier mentioned, 8 dimensions of zero point space time with a value of zero. (zero is really a dot that is not a dot because it is not really there).

Also each and every point , is also the ninth dimension.  being central in a cube but also one of the 8 dimensions.

ok so far?





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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #36 on: 17/05/2015 23:50:06 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #37 on: 18/05/2015 09:26:57 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.

I will simplify

You are the 9th dimension, all matter is the 9th dimension, you look out into the Universe, you look out to the other 8 dimensions, the corners of the virtual box you are inside.


However, each corner of the box is also the 9th dimension, because if you was there on the corner looking toward the earth, you would still be within the other 8 dimensions and  also in  a virtual new box.

.....t.....
.....t.....
ttttt0ttttt
.....t.....
.....t.....




0 point space is an intersection of ''time''  that has no value, space made to a singular point of all of space as whole at any time.


O in the digram is the dimension X.    1 dimensional view isotropically


A 3 dimensional cube made up of points, ................................................................., that are not really points because they are 0 point space, I can not draw this because it is emptiness, a void.


matter gives value to the space

........0................0...........0...........0


matter also moves through zero point space.

...............o.o...............o..............................................................o


and instantaneous occupies new space.


From the inside you look out, but from the outside you look out from the inside.












« Last Edit: 18/05/2015 09:42:41 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #38 on: 18/05/2015 09:37:49 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.
I will simplify

There you are David. Couldn't be simpler than that!
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Offline Thebox

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #39 on: 18/05/2015 10:21:39 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.
I will simplify

There you are David. Couldn't be simpler than that!

and not forgetting that from any corner to corner is equal in time and distance verified by the speed of light constant.

Showing that the Keating experiment shows an dependent timing dilation to the object that does not effect zero point space-time.

Because time is a dependent instantaneous moment of zero point space-time that you pass through. 

« Last Edit: 18/05/2015 10:30:26 by Thebox »

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #40 on: 18/05/2015 10:46:04 »
Quote
the Caesium clock is arbitrary , no different to a wall clock.

Wrong. The mechanism of an atomic clock is unaffected by acceleration, whcih is why they are used to measure time whenever we need to take account of relativistic effects.

You cannot measure other people's knowledge and experience against your ignorance and prejudice. The axes are orthogonal.



The Caesium clock is still an arbitrary clock, 1 second on a Caesium clock is equal to one second on a wall clock.   Gravity effects the Caesium clock, you want proof?

put a Caesium clock on the moon and observe how slow the clock ''ticks'' then.


I will time the clock on the moon and the clock on earth with my box light clock, placing both Caesium clocks inside the box. I observe no time dilation from any space dimension.  I observe a timing fluctuation created by gravity displacement of mass dependent to the object.




 

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #41 on: 18/05/2015 17:12:33 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.
I will simplify
There you are David. Couldn't be simpler than that!

Yes, well I understand now why he calls himself Thebox. I had been thinking more along the lines of cricket until now.

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Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #42 on: 18/05/2015 22:38:24 »
Yes, well I understand now why he calls himself Thebox. I had been thinking more along the lines of cricket until now.
Got you stumped has he?
Now what are all those round things they throw ........
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.