Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #100 on: 13/09/2015 10:22:24 »
If you want to sling mud at "British" science by quoting Wakefield, may I suggest a strong dose of Tuskegee as an antidote? Or is deliberate harm and negligence too tangential to be weighed against pathetic fraud? OK, let's get back to surgery:

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This transorbital lobotomy method did not require a neurosurgeon and could be performed outside of an operating room without the use of anesthesia by using electroconvulsive therapy to induce seizure. The modifications to his lobotomy allowed Freeman to broaden the use of the surgery, which could be performed in psychiatric hospitals throughout the United States that were overpopulated and understaffed. In 1950 Walter Freeman's longtime partner James Watts left their practice and split from Freeman due to his opposition to the cruelty and overuse of the transorbital lobotomy.

How did he get away with it? Well,

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Walter J. Freeman was born on November 14, 1895 to a privileged family. He was raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by his parents. Freeman was also known for being a bit of an oddball and he complemented his theatrical approach to demonstrating surgery by sporting a cane, goatee, and a wide-brimmed hat.

Of course this couldn't happen in a perfect classless democracy like the USA, could it? I can't use the word "meritocracy" because that would imply some objective measure of performance, to which you would probably object.

By the way, have you actually read the paper yet?

Come on, Bill, you can do better than your friend Uhuru's ravings.
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Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #101 on: 14/09/2015 13:03:09 »
I deleted a block of messages that read like a schoolyard exercise in name-calling.
I left just enough to show that scientific fraud can occur on both sides of the pond. 
But the focus here should be identifying any problems with the paper under discussion, or twin studies in general. Mod.

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Offline ProjectSailor

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #102 on: 14/09/2015 14:30:09 »
I lost the thread many times through this post.. Thanks peco for tarring all british people with the same brush, this book you are reading is certainly having an impact on your thought processes.. but beyond that I actually half agree with you.

Genetics does not and will not affect intelligence or capability. If this were true we would still live in caves hitting each other with clubs over who's class system is most ridiculous.

Environment is the prime mover.. I am sure someone much cleverer than i has done a paper on this sort of thing..

One thing I cannot classify is 'mindset?' if thats the right word.. a family who instill a hardworking 'mindset?' into their child and make them believe the world is their oyster will get a bright and intelligent child. (not always true but close enough to kow it is a main contributing factor) whether they are rich or poor makes a huge difference too.. but I believe this to be another 'mindset?' factor, where the poor kids lack ambition maybe, or get too cynical too young from watching their parents struggle.

But I know one thing.. Intelligent parents do not always have intelligent kids.. and siblings can have a wide range of abilities from first class maths degrees to no gcse's and a criminal record as in my family.

I knew three sets of twins in my school.. and the only reason they all passed their gcse's with similar graes was because they copied each other on the coursework.. and studied together and because they were studying the same subjects.. yes they progressed at the same rate.. only twins and very very rare fraternals can actually do this. Hence the 'genetic' link is more like an age gap link... which is a bit stupid to put in a report.. 'is age a factor in your gcse grade'

But tbh the whole argument is pointless since your GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing to your intelligence or capability since they have constantly catered for the lowest denominator and are racing to the bottom with the rest of the world competing for headlines.

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #103 on: 14/09/2015 15:21:18 »
Readers,

About 200 words of my evidence has once again been erased by the people running the naked scientist.

Dr. Plomin's research remains un-reproduced and thus unconfirmed by rational men and women.

What is not open to question here is the dogged effort of the people running the naked scientists to shove it out into the world as the gospel truth.

The world has learned that when you accept such  British "science" at face value, you are taking your chances.

I have previously voiced my concern that this "science news" of this 2 year old paper may be politically influenced. It is of note that yesterday Mr. Corbyn was elected to lead the Labor party.

I will post this in hopes that enough people can read it before it is hidden from their view.

Although the best cyber-security Britain has is now in use to silence Pecos_Bill's dissent - and although I probably face the same fate --in the words of General MacArthur, "I shall return" - within 6 months.

The only way they could prevent that is to shut down this farce completely. That would be bad, but still better than this disgusting donkey show.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #104 on: 14/09/2015 19:54:34 »
"I have previously voiced my concern that this "science news" of this 2 year old paper may be politically influenced. It is of note that yesterday Mr. Corbyn was elected to lead the Labor party."
The election may well be noteworthy (and I for one am glad of it) but it has nothing to do with the topic.
And the same was true of your 200 words of so called "evidence".
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #105 on: 14/09/2015 19:57:32 »

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #106 on: 14/09/2015 20:02:45 »

But tbh the whole argument is pointless since your GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing to your intelligence or capability

Which is why the paper only discussed GCSE grades, not intelligence or capability. 

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since they have constantly catered for the lowest denominator and are racing to the bottom with the rest of the world competing for headlines.

I'd agree. It was pointed out in 1999 that the model answers to a 1969 Ordinary level (now GCSE. taken at age 16 or thereabouts) physics paper would have merited a good pass at Advanced level (university entrance, age 18) 30 years later.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #107 on: 14/09/2015 20:48:44 »
The dumbing down of exams is an interesting topic in it's own right. But, since the paper that opened this thread is based on comparisons within one year so it's irrelevant.
Also, (almost always) the twins will have sat exactly the same paper and it will have been marked by the same person,  yet the differences in scores were not the same.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #108 on: 15/09/2015 09:01:37 »
Here's a fact that may be of interest to those who argue that "the Plomin paper" is an attempt to justify some obnoxious and uniquely British social phenomenon. Robert Plomin is an American.
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Offline ProjectSailor

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #109 on: 15/09/2015 09:15:36 »

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.

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Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #110 on: 15/09/2015 12:22:45 »
Quote from: ProjectSailor
If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time
This assertion presupposes that everyone is cloned (ie essentially the same genetics as their parent).

However, sexual reproduction results in mixing the parental genes in the children. If there is a slight increase in the number of children from those with higher intelligence, then you would expect that genes related to higher intelligence would gradually become more common in the population. This might occur if more intelligent people were better paid & nourished, suffered fewer accidents, or were more attractive to the opposite sex, for example. 

This genetic drift is not enough to explain the Flynn effect, which saw the IQ scores of some populations increasing at quite rapid rates in the 20th Century. Causes are mysterious, but could be due to better education, nutrition or medical care. There are some hints that this effect has stalled, or even gone backwards in the 21st century (some blame computer games or the education system again...)

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #111 on: 15/09/2015 16:09:02 »
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then Regression to mediocrity would dictate that intelligence would decrease.

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The concept of regression comes from genetics and was popularized by Sir Francis Galton during the late 19th century with the publication of Regression towards mediocrity in hereditary stature.  [1.]


If the Flynn effect has caused an increase in British IQ's (which tourists passing near a British pub on any Friday evening could not be blamed for doubting) then how do you explain the singular occurrence that the naked scientist has presented this 2 year old same paper by Plomin - albeit, wearing a different shirt - here in the next month and apparently thinks it can be passed of as science news among the rubes?  (Cf: What can twins tell us about genetics, intelligence, and more?)



[1.] Galton, F. (1886). "Regression towards mediocrity in hereditary stature". The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland 15: 246263. doi:10.2307/2841583
« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 16:15:56 by Franklin_Uhuru »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #112 on: 15/09/2015 19:26:45 »

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.
Nonsense.
I flatter myself perhaps, but I believe that humans are the most intelligent species on the planner (though I accept the point about pubs on a Friday night).
How did we get that way?
The only credible answer is evolution- the less intelligent  didn't do so well and didn't  raise so many children and grandchildren.

If your idea was true then we would all have the same coloured eyes because that's a clearly genetic trait.

It may be true that "there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired "
but that shows the exact opposite of what you claim.
We are more intelligent than our distant ancestors- the protohuman forbears of us, the chimps and so on- and the reason for that is precisely because we have, as you put it ' better 'intelligence genes' '.

Those genes are heritable and if some people have a slightly better set than others, perhaps it would explain why they (and their identical twin) do well in exams compared to another pair of twins who do less well because they have the misfortune to have  a less proficient set of "intelligence genes".
(And i accept there's a lot more to intelligence than exam scores, but it's difficult to say they are uncorrelated.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #113 on: 15/09/2015 19:28:04 »
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then...


how fortunate then, that nobody said that it did.
Why the strawman?
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Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #114 on: 15/09/2015 22:41:46 »
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then Regression to mediocrity would dictate that intelligence would decrease
.
The term "mediocrity" as used by Galton does not mean "inferior", but "average", and so the correct statistical term is "regression to the mean" (where mean = average). 

So the children of an extreme outlier like Einstein are unlikely to also be an extreme outlier, but probably closer to the average. Simultaneously, children of people closer to the average will sometimes produce an extreme outlier (like an Einstein).

So regression to the mean does not mean a general reduction in intelligence, but a sustaining of the distribution; That is, if there were no other factors at play (like young men who think they can drive safely at 150 mph after a Friday night at the pub).

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #115 on: 15/09/2015 22:46:23 »
Do you assert therefore that these twins GCSE scores are not  necessarily the result of their inherited intelligence? Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

What else then, Sir? Have these twins inherited clairvoyance or some other extra sensory perception? Were they getting answers from the "other side"?

Do they search test takers to ensure they don't sneak a ouija board into the test site?

Have you discovered ectoplasmic cheating in Btitain?

« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 23:10:15 by Franklin_Uhuru »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #116 on: 15/09/2015 23:02:42 »
Quote
Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

You are halfway to understanding the paper!
« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 23:05:49 by alancalverd »
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #117 on: 15/09/2015 23:05:58 »
...
As to regression to mediocrity in the matter of intelligence, it shows that you cannot predict higher intelligence in children based on their parents' intelligence unless you look at sub-normal intelligence of the parents.

Therefore, this research has no practical application to predicting GCSE scores due to inheritance. It has been rather useful in making the Daily Mail to claim that predictive power , hasn't it?
...
Conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias are now in a separate thread - see New Theories.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 12:04:36 by evan_au »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #118 on: 15/09/2015 23:15:03 »

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.

We seem to think that height and skin color are genetically linked, yet successive generations tend to diverge, to the extent that homo sapiens comes in quite a variety of distinct local forms. Some of us think this is due to environmental and social selection generating evolutionary branches from a common but slightly plastic genome, others think it is the intentional design of a supreme being. If regression to the mean is dominant, surely we'd all look like Australopithecus or Lucy. So either it isn't, or Darwin was wrong.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #119 on: 15/09/2015 23:40:51 »
Therefore, this research has no practical application to predicting GCSE scores due to inheritance. It has been rather useful in making the Daily Mail to claim that predictive power , hasn't it?

Cut to the chase: there is no practical value whatever in predicting GCSE scores by any means, there never was, and there never will be. The examination is definitive, and unless you failed spectacularly on the day because the cat died (sh1t happens, which is why you can retake GCSEs), no employer cares about any third party prediction.

Tip: If you want to be taken seriously this side of the Atlantic, don't quote the Daily Mail as source material, or even admit to reading it.

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Therefore, to return to my original question, why are you and the rest of the naked scientists here beavering away to present it twice - (2 years old research as it ever was) as the hot news of the day?

I can't speak for the program makers but I can offer two possible answers to the question: (a) space filling - it's utterly boring and pointless research but pretty easy to interview anyone working in London,  but (b) rather like the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887, it is a classic null test of an otherwise intractable hypothesis, and therefore likely to be quoted many more times. In short: along with the Guinness Book of Records, it may become the definitive answer to a completely useless but often-asked question. Apologies to Michelson and Morley, whose question was of fundamental importance.   
« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 23:43:11 by alancalverd »
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #120 on: 16/09/2015 01:18:30 »
Dr. Plomin might have chosen to use behavioral genetics to throw light on pedophilia, schizophrenia, serial murderers, manic- depressive illness -- any number of satanic afflictions on suffering humanity.

Instead he used it to see if inheritance plays a roll in school success. He did that in England with its long dolorous history of class ridden oppression of the common man. Further, make any attempt to question the real (perhaps subconscious) reason for this and one is met with shocked outrage --- and banishment from the realm -- at least attempted banishment.

Conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias are now in a separate thread - see New Theories - Mod.
Meanwhile Pedophilia continues to menace children, Schizophrenics may easily be found wandering the streets -often eating out of garbage cans, and Manic-depressives still hit the wall and hang themselves.      So it goes. It is an outrage - a real outrage - to any Registered Nurse.

What a country.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 12:07:13 by evan_au »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #121 on: 16/09/2015 06:46:57 »
Ah, Mr Uhuru, how lucky you are to live in a classless egalitarian society where the National Guard had to accompany a little child to school because her grandparents had been slaves, and where schoolkids still murder their classmates with automatic rifles. How comforting it must be to sit in Elysium and criticise a paper you haven't read, whilst ascribing all sorts of terrible motives to one of your countrymen - all of whom, your friend Pecos insists, would run a mile from it.

If only there were no paedophiles in California....

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4 Apr 2013 - California Congresswoman Jackie Speier, Democrat, wants to federalize a state law that protects pedophiles.

That's the way to deal with a problem - legalise it out of existence!

I can't answer why Plomin has chosen to make a career out of studying child psychology, but all sorts of people make a living doing things that others might consider pointless, or at least of minimal urgency. I recently had a delightful dinner with a lady who has spent her adult life interpreting the theology of a 15th century Dutch nun's poems. But as your countryman Robert Wilson said of particle physics

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In that sense, this new knowledge has all to do with honor and country but it has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to help make it worth defending.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 07:48:40 by chris »
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #122 on: 16/09/2015 17:43:39 »
I am replacing the entry which the "gentlemen" of the naked scientists were afraid to let you see...without telling you. I will continue to do so until I am silenced by these people. However, repression will not silence the voice of humanity here or anywhere else...you can take that to the bank.

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I will not answer this "gentleman's" tirade. However, since the mirror I held up to him obviously cut so deeply I will rephrase it again. Maybe it will replenish the springs of humanity among some of you people.

While the oozing wounds of Britain's (Yes and America and doubtless even in Arcadia) ooze and fester, Dr. Plomin and his naked scientist fans here have chosen to spend their coin worrying about the inheritance of GCSE scores. For is that not the title you people have given it here?.

They could have spent it looking into the etiology of mental illness but they didn't. What? Is this the world of 2015 or naked scientist cloud coo-coo land?

The supposed inheritance of school performance was more important to them than addressing the causes of so much quotidian human anguish to Dr Chris and his Merrie band. I call that strong work, indeed.

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    And someone says, "You're in the wrong place, my friend, you
    Better leave"
    And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go
    Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row


That is poetry you know. A person among you has disparaged my previous attempt to quote T.S. Elliot to reach some iota of humanity among you folks.

Hope springs eternal..

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #123 on: 16/09/2015 18:55:12 »
Do you assert therefore that these twins GCSE scores are not  necessarily the result of their inherited intelligence? Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

OK, so you are making progress.
The twins' results are similar because they share the same upbringing etc. Everybody expected that.
That's one vitally important part of the research.
Now,  Let's see if you can get to grips with the other thing they found in their research.
The difference in scores between the fraternal twins was bigger than the difference in scores between pairs of identical twins.


Do you understand that?
There's a difference between identical twins and non- identical twins.
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #124 on: 16/09/2015 20:02:47 »
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

What I do not understand is why none of you male "scientists" see the inherently sexist assumption in this "research"....assuming you are not benighted, testosterone blinded  throwbacks.

Please limit conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias to New Theories - Mod.

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 22:20:20 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #125 on: 16/09/2015 21:47:01 »
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

You seem to have scooped today's irony prize.
No such assumption is made.
They say that the scores are different and that you need to account for that because roughly half of fraternal twins are not the same sex, but identical twins are always the same sex.
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #126 on: 16/09/2015 23:35:26 »
I also said that the sexist discrimination was apparent to anyone who is not a testosterone-ridden throwback. Is that not so, Mister?

I have worked with and for other women RN's all my adult life. I am no stranger to the devious lengths men go to in order to keep their foot on their throats. Do you understand that, Mister?

But you are obviously using this to distract people from my main point which I will quote again..since you are so transparently trying on these antics to obscure it.

Wait for it...

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #127 on: 17/09/2015 17:47:16 »
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

I don't know where you got this from. It certainly isn't suggested in the paper.

There is a well-known measurable difference between boys' and girls' scores in different GCSE subjects. There are well-known chromosomal differences between boys and girls. Correlation does not imply causation, but where it is a statistically significant confounding factor, it is worthwhile adjusting the actual subject scores accordingly before comparing identical twins' score differences with those of fraternal twins. Which is what they did, because otherwise the unadjusted score differences of different-sex fraternals would have been greater than those of same-sex fraternals.

If you are looking for a small unknown, it's always worthwhile correcting for all the known knowns.

Daft? Yes. Harmful? No. My pianist has a PhD based on the sexual behaviour of African sparrows. There being no great shortage of African sparrows, nor any great reluctance of African sparrows to indulge in sexual behaviour, you might ask why his sponsors bothered, but then why climb a mountain or fly to the Moon? Indeed with a precarious agriculture on the verge of collapse and imminent flooding of half the country, why send a cricket team to the World Cup? I'm sure our Bangladeshi correspondents have a view on the subject, and I think it's something to do with "just for fun".

Where I disagree with the paper is in its conclusions and discussion. The authors use the once-fashionable mistranslation of educare as "to bring out" as though it means to expose a child's inherent (dare I use the word?) talents and abilities. In my day, educare meant "to lead  out". I don't think Caesar's  officers were particularly concerned with developing their troops' individual abilities to sing or paint, but rather wanted to extricate them from an ambush or a bog, and thus recruited local scouts to educare the milites. But that was in the days of O level Latin: I'm sure it has all been dumbed down for GCSE. 
« Last Edit: 17/09/2015 18:04:39 by alancalverd »
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #128 on: 17/09/2015 18:26:30 »
Perhaps you think that if you can keep talking long enough nobody who has outgrown the Victorian concept of women will remember my point, Mister.

Once again ..

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

Today in this forum people -- real people --are seeking help for their fibromyalgia, amputations, and tinnitus. Fibromyalgia alone is a cause of significant cost and disability.

Yet the money which might have been used to seek help for these people was squandered by this very questionable and unconfirmed "research" which has not produced one miniscule iota of benefit to the human race -- nor, never will.

Take a bow, Mister

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #129 on: 17/09/2015 19:00:00 »
Perhaps you could enlilghten us with your priority list of all academic research?

I have agreed with you from the outset that there was no conceivable practical value to this work, but I am aware that the US Academy of Sciences told the Wright Brothers that there was no conceivable military use for the airplane, and that the laser which reads your CDs was for at least a decade nothing more than an academic solution to a nonexistent question. Nevertheless we now know that identical twins score closer than fraternal twins, heavier-than-air flying machines play a major part in modern warfare, and utterly pointless music can be played in your car whilst millions are starving.     
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #130 on: 17/09/2015 22:00:57 »
I also said that the sexist discrimination was apparent to anyone who is not a testosterone-ridden throwback. Is that not so, Mister?

Come off it Bill, it isn't apparent. It's imaginary.
If you disagree, just quote the part from the paper where they say it.
Show us the " assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup."

That shouldn't be difficult and it would completely show your point and demonstrate the superiority of your view.


Oh, BTW, there's a perfectly valid (if not really medical) reason for doing this sort of research.
You may be aware that Binet's original work on quantifying intelligence was done so that those who needed help could be identified and helped.

Just because some utter ***** misused this sort of work in a pretended justification of eugenics or racism, doesn't mean that the actual science is in any way "bad" or "evil".
It remains, as I pointed out before, the best weapon against the things you say you hate.
Why not climb back down off your high horse, read the paper and realise that you can use the results to crush those damnable bastards.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:33:42 by evan_au »
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #131 on: 17/09/2015 23:24:28 »
This is a family forum - as the rules attest. Even though you are one of the moderator's little pals, kindly avoid using your garbage mouth like that again, Mister. You may have noticed that I am able to use quite colorful - but clean -- imagery without your gutter vocabulary. So take a hint, Buster.

Nevertheless, your bad manners have failed  (again) to distract me from my point....

This ... paper has produced no benefit to mankind except to sell newspapers of a dodgy type. Don't give me that tap dance about Binet. What is the use of this schlock to 21st century Britain -- or the world? Meanwhile. this dog has eaten up scarce medical research dollars and those valid areas of research that have a chance of benefiting people -- have (Wait for it!) ---gone wanting for funds.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:38:38 by evan_au »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #132 on: 17/09/2015 23:47:41 »
As you well know, vast sums of research money are wasted on all sorts of nonsense. Unfortunately, once a sector budget has been allocated in a funding body, it's very difficult to vire funds to a more deserving sector, especially if you haven't received any grant applications in that sector. But if you don't spend the money within the financial year, you lose it and next year's budget gets reduced.

From the grant-givers' perspective, we have to judge every application on its own merits of soundness, feasibility, etc. Where there is no actual product or procedure to be developed, the subject of utility is not discussed.

Best advice I was given as an applicant was to spend my entire first-year capital allocation within 6 months at most. That way the Powers that Be think you are working efficiently to a strict plan, give you more money next year, and also scrape this year's barrel for unspent cash from other people's budgets. 

For what it's worth, in the last 10 years of reviewing research proposals I have only considered about two out of 200 applications from universities to be worthwhile (or even spelled correctly), whilst around 95% of those from industrial and clinical applicants were likely to actually benefit mankind. 

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #133 on: 18/09/2015 07:05:24 »
If, as you say, vast sums of medical research money are wasted because you don't receive grant proposals from valid and deserving disease researchers  --[A.] then you obviously have failed to issue requests for proposals for valid medical research. And [B.] why are you issuing those funds unless to maintain a charade that you have spent the peoples' tax money wisely...and need more again in the next year?
...
Part of my job when I was TB-HIV counselor was to write the yearly grant renewal to extend the funding another year.

Therefore, I know from personal experience that this Plomin -or one of his graduate student coolies - must have burned midnight oil to get the grant proposal for this nonsense whipped together in some manner that would cut your low standards of the mustard.. Your claim that the funding for this study couldn't feasibly have been denied is only believable for persons whose Mommy reads them a story before bed time.

So pardon me while I fall down laughing.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:40:02 by evan_au »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #134 on: 18/09/2015 08:28:59 »
Nothing new or unusual about UK funding bodies. The Pyramids and the Taj Mahal were built whilst peasants starved - indeed by starving peasants. Homo sapiens is a very unsatisfactory species.
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #135 on: 18/09/2015 10:09:24 »
I am 70 years old. I have seen much adversity, wickedness, and suffering in this world but I have never succumbed to such ... indifference to integrity, rectitude, and the scout law as uttered here by this "hero member".

The difficult thing about the scout law is that you must continue its guidance after you are 14 years old. I am, Mister, still true to my salt as assistant patrol leader of the Cherokees, Troop 152, Sequoia Council, Boy Scouts of America.

Some may snicker. The more fools they.

We were not put upon this earth to turn our faces from starving peasants or our brothers and sisters whose taxes support such hollow men and their shenanigans.

Hollow men, such as watch money earmarked for medical research to benefit the commonweal, but dumped instead into the hog trough of this "behavioral genetics" bill of goods about identical/fraternal twins and their vershtunken GCSE score.
Keep it civil... mod
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:42:26 by evan_au »

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Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #136 on: 18/09/2015 13:16:31 »
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
why are you and the rest of the naked scientists here beavering away to present it twice - (2 years old research as it ever was) as the hot news of the day?
Today I finally heard the recent Naked Genetics podcast "Hundreds and Thousands", which was talking about techniques assisting the search for genetic diseases in humans. The often subtle effects of genetic differences require very large sample sizes to extract a statistically significant result from the noise of many confounding factors and genes that have small individual effect (or, as pointed out in the "knockout" interview, sometimes no visible impact at all!).

A variety of techniques were mentioned, including cohort studies with various degrees of ethnic diversity, integrated medical & educational records, and twin studies.

While the segment on twin studies did mention the GCSE result in passing, it was mostly in the context of obtaining a large enough sample size which is unavailable in more fragmented countries. The majority of the interview was talking about other aspects of studying twins and their genetics.

So there were two interviews with the same guest within 2 months, but IMHO, it really wasn't the same paper presented twice.

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #137 on: 18/09/2015 16:50:29 »
You may look for yourself to see what "TheDoc" himself  wrote to introduce the  the naked scientist's entirely "incidental" second apotheosis of Dr. Plomin's research here in two months...

Quote
Professor Robert Plomin from Kings College London explains why twins are
so interesting to geneticists, and what they can tell us.

Keep off the national slurs - mod

PS: Are those genetic data being kept entirely out of the government's data banks? You wouldn't kid me now, would you?

NB: It is a well considered policy to stick to Lapsang Souchong tea for 8 hours before you write here.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 23:32:00 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #138 on: 18/09/2015 19:06:03 »
This is a family forum - as the rules attest. Even though you are one of the moderator's little pals, kindly avoid using your garbage mouth like that again, Mister. You may have noticed that I am able to use quite colorful - but clean -- imagery without your gutter vocabulary. So take a hint, Buster.

Nevertheless, your bad manners have failed  (again) to distract me from my point....

This ... paper has produced no benefit to mankind except to sell newspapers of a dodgy type. Don't give me that tap dance about Binet. What is the use of this schlock to 21st century Britain -- or the world? Meanwhile. this dog has eaten up scarce medical research dollars and those valid areas of research that have a chance of benefiting people -- have (Wait for it!) ---gone wanting for funds.

You seem to have allowed a word that's been used on this forum before to distract you from actually addressing the point. The paper did, and does, make a contribution.
It provides the evidence to undermine the eugenics nuts and so on- yet you would ban it because you don't like the way some people would misinterpret it.

this is a science forum and, while I apologise for any offence caused by my language, I wonder which you think is more offensive?
The truth, but including a naughty word, or a politely worded lie like this one "I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup."

No such assumption was made.
you know that.
You refuse to accept that you were simply wrong.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #139 on: 18/09/2015 20:16:35 »
I used a "rude" word- actually a corruption of  the Norwegian word for dirt- to describe some people who I'm sure we agree are pretty despicable. The only people I directly insulted are dead (and probably deserved the description). And, it wasn't with "impunity" as you put it; I got it deleted and my knuckles wrapped.
Bill was banned for repeated overt racism against white people, for insulting people here on the site and, above all for breaking the rules.
Do you really not understand the difference.
Among other things the problem with an ad hom attack isn't so much that it's rude- the big problem is that it is a logical fallacy. It is implicitly dishonest. That's what you got canned for.

Also, as usual, you have missed the point.
You made the assertion that the paper says (or implies) that there is an"assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.".
Others have pointed out that they do not make (or imply) that assumption
So, it falls to you to prove your allegation.

That's the way it works; if you say something, you are expected to be able to back it up.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #140 on: 18/09/2015 23:22:08 »
Franklin's still unable to muster an argument, I see.

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #141 on: 18/09/2015 23:39:05 »
Keep off the national & professional slurs - mod


Mr. Moderator how is it a professional slur to point out your friend's personal interest in disparaging the sexist nature of Plomin's paper, Hmmm?


Now can we get back to how the funds for Plomin's research were diverted by the government ...away from things like Parkinson's disease?

Gosh, I hope that none of these contributors come down with Parkinson's like so many other Brits!

Mr. Moderator! Why did you change my text from "gentlemen" to "contributors"? And if you have such delicate sensitivity, why do you fail to show me the courtesy of signing your own name to your interference?

Oh ! The Humanity!
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 01:06:21 by Franklin_Uhuru »

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Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #142 on: 18/09/2015 23:57:34 »
Quote from: Pecos_Bill
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.
Reading about Josef Mengele's experiments on twins is sickening. His disdain for certain national groups allowed him to ignore the medical motto of "Do No Harm". Today's "Informed Consent" and Ethics Committees evidently did not cross his mind.

But that is no reason to rubbish twin studies. Subject to modern controls, they are a valuable and productive area of research, assisting hypothesis creation and confirmation, well before any underlying causes are discovered. They significantly reduce the confounding factors in other types of study.

Even better, prospective longitudinal studies of twins (such as Prof Plomin discussed) assist untangling cause and effect. Studies that take place at a single point in time can only show correlation, which does not demonstrate cause & effect.

So the real problem here is not the twin studies, but in mental attitude; viewing people with certain capabilities, or coming from certain national or ethnic origins with disdain. When polemic labels people like this, the perpetrators feel free to ignore any logic or humanity in what other parties say or do, and see no need to respond to it in a humane or logically sound way, based on objective evidence. I feel this is the fundamental error of the ad-hominem argument on a website.

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #143 on: 19/09/2015 00:08:38 »
The real problem is that research funds are diverted to ridiculous beetle tracking studies of no tangible benefit-- like Plomin's research-- by faceless government pooh-bahs while the tax payers who foot the bill groan under afflictions like MS or Parkinson's whose research is starved for funds  like the red haired step-child of British medicine.

There and it doesn't take 500 words of bloviating verbiage to say it.

Anything that is true can be explained in 5 sentences or so. Only deceptions need several paragraphs.
It is true that you can insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you in 5 sentences or less (the ad hominem argument).
To present a clear, logical argument in 5 sentences or less is much more difficult.


And I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 23:33:35 by evan_au »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #144 on: 19/09/2015 00:12:50 »
So the real problem here is not the twin studies, but in mental attitude; viewing people with certain capabilities, or coming from certain national or ethnic origins with disdain. When polemic labels people like this, the perpetrators feel free to ignore any logic or humanity in what other parties say or do, and see no need to respond to it in a humane or logically sound way, based on objective evidence. I feel this is the fundamental error of the ad-hominem argument on a website.
Yeah, but when someone feels so strongly that the issues are so important that something must be done, nothing quite matches a rant on an internet forum for the feeling that one has made a contribution...  [::)]

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #145 on: 19/09/2015 00:18:02 »
Quote
And I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.

Will you guarantee this data will not be misused, Bub, or the cat's mother?

In fact, how would you know if Dr. Plomin was fronting for the United States National Spook Agency?

It's an easy answer. Unless another Snowden popped up, you wouldn't.

Would you Mr. "Hero Menber" ?


*********************

Reader,

I don't come here to speak to any of the gentlemen and scholars who preen themselves so comically in this forum.

I come to speak to you

You whose tax money is squandered on this feckless "research. You who are excluded from the high table by these people's poorly concealed discrimination. Yes, and you who are menaced by the useless promises made by these people that genetic data isn't being eagerly hoovered up by your government.

Don't let these people lead you up the garden path.
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 02:19:35 by Franklin_Uhuru »

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #146 on: 19/09/2015 04:08:58 »
FLASH!      FLASH!     FLASH!

In breaking news this evening. I have read the following in The Guardian...

Ethnic minority students less likely to win university places[1.]

The story notes...

Quote
In the case of medical sciences, the figures suggest more than 360 ethnic minority students were turned down for places that the Ucas forecast suggests they should have gained at leading Russell Group universities, over the five years of data.


The Naked Scientist's official  ideological line is that Plomin's paper is innocent of any discriminatory intent.

Viewed in that context the fervid efforts of these white men in this Physiology & Medicine forum to assert the innocent nature of Plomin's research in the face of denying admission  to 360 non-white students in favor of white students is pungently reminiscent of the Milpitas tidal flats --to say the least.

Such silent complicity in depriving 360 deserving students of color from a medical career  is a shame and a stench on my own white skin and every other decent white man in the world..



[1.] http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/18/ethnic-minority-students-less-likely-to-win-university-places [nofollow]

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #147 on: 19/09/2015 10:16:19 »

Anything that is true can be explained in 5 sentences or so. Only deceptions need several paragraphs.

OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #148 on: 19/09/2015 10:18:10 »


Mr. Moderator how is it a professional slur to point out your friend's personal interest in disparaging the sexist nature of Plomin's paper, Hmmm?

Because the "personal interest" only exists in your imagination and the paper isn't sexist.


You do realise you are heading for a ban again, don't you?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #149 on: 19/09/2015 10:52:04 »
I am well aware of the risks incurred by anyone who points out ... discrimination against non-white people and their white allies like me.

360 colored people denied an equal education over 5 years works out to 72 per year.  72 colored people denied per year in medicine alone...
Stay away from character assassination and conspiracy theories - Mod

Uhuru!  Ban me and be damned. You will never ban the peoples' thirst for justice.

#stillyes



« Last Edit: 20/09/2015 00:07:44 by evan_au »