Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?

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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #50 on: 30/08/2015 22:26:49 »
Informed skepticism is the essence of the scientific method. 

Whenever I encounter someone trying to sell a concept as a sure thing, I remember the second Durand vs. Leonard match.  Durand had beaten Leonard so badly that all my friends urged me to bet big on Durand to "make a fortune". I, however, remembered the wise teaching of my Uncle Bodie that, "Nobody ever made a dime on a sure thing yet."

When Durand took two punches in the 1st round, then raised his hands and cried, "¡ No mas ! ¡No mas !", I knew that Uncle Bodie had saved me from ruin once again.

How very, very British to hear these people assuring me of the absolute truth of this "smug white man's bedtime story" as if it had been handed down by the archangel Gabriel - not some "genetic psychologist"

To paraphrase Rutherford there is real science and then there is genetic psychology and stamp collecting.

When I was growing up I heard Fred Hoyle assuring the world that the universe was steady-state with typical British fervor. Just like the fervor of you people - but you have far less hard evidence. Is that not so?

Once upon a time in Britain, who one's parents were greatly determined your school scores and, thus, your station in life.

Yeah, Riiiight.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #51 on: 31/08/2015 00:23:34 »

Once upon a time in Britain, who one's parents were greatly determined your school scores and, thus, your station in life.


Still pretty much the case, as everywhere else, but now we know that there is a genetic as well as an environmental component. It's embarrassing for the government because you can't tax genes (not that the wealthy pay inheritance taxes anyway: they are a sop to the Left and a worry to the middle classes). 

And in Britain we don't hide behind a pretence of democracy or meritocracy: instead of rigged presidential "elections" where one candidate's brother counts the votes, we just have a hereditary monarch and an unelected president in Downing Street.
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #52 on: 31/08/2015 00:56:00 »
Behold, the dreamer cometh.

It is NOT the case that everywhere else is similar to class-ridden British life. America is - and always has been - a refuge for people who couldn't stomach the sort of society that generates (and celebrates) insufferable British boors like Jeremy Clarkson.

In America, many unfair things have taken place. HOWEVER, Until recently -- as some gullible people have come to admire Britain for things like Princess Diana or the Beatles - we don't applaud or embrace them (as you seem to) as the proper and natural way of conducting affairs.


This thread has been quite illuminating to me.

I have always been struck by the paradox that Thomas More - the enlightened English author of "Utopia" - had repeatedly condemned people to hideous torture for things like wanting to read the Bible in English.

I am grateful, therefore, to have witnessed these examples of contemporary English reasoning. It throws much light on the Thomas More paradox.

« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 01:27:44 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #53 on: 31/08/2015 09:54:55 »
Caveat Lector:  Never discuss an issue of science which concerns something that has wide coverage in the Daily Mail with a certain type of Englishman.

Here is a story on today's Daily Mail online  front page, "A flooded office, plummeting temperatures and documents mysteriously moving: Terrified workers fear that ghost of an old lady is haunting them after 'face' appears at the window".

What should you do if you accidentally encounter a Daily Mail reader in conversation? In the old days people once used a topical mixture of sulfur and petroleum jelly for relief. Nowadays one might use a Lindane shampoo. One can also get good prevention by using outer clothing impregnated with Pyrethins.

So, once again you stick to not actually answering the point, but choose to attack the medium - not even the medium through which it was delivered- but one that subsequently took an interest.

I take you that you are unable to attack the science itself because you realise it's factually correct, no matter how distasteful that may be.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #54 on: 31/08/2015 10:05:14 »
Informed skepticism is the essence of the scientific method. 

How very, very British to hear these people assuring me of the absolute truth of this "smug white man's bedtime story" as if it had been handed down by the archangel Gabriel - not some "genetic psychologist"

It is indeed true that "Informed scepticism is the essence of the scientific method. " and the key word there is "informed"
Since you have already made it clear that you don't understand the bassi of this research your views don't count as "informed" in any useful way.

The conclusion isn't handed down from Gabriel- it came out of an examination of the data.

So far you have shown that
1 you don't understand how they used that data and
2 you are unable to actually show any problems in their method.

All you have done is string together a bunch of  strawmen and racist nonsense about "smug white men".

You seem to have become the thing you despise.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #55 on: 31/08/2015 12:34:15 »

It is NOT the case that everywhere else is similar to class-ridden British life. America is - and always has been - a refuge for people who couldn't stomach the sort of society that generates (and celebrates) insufferable British boors like Jeremy Clarkson.


Admittedly it takes time to establish a ruling class and an underclass, but one must give the colonials credit for being fairly energetic in this respect. Names like Kennedy, Bush and Clinton seem to convey an automatic right to the taxpayer's money, and the mass purchase and importation of Africans between 1500 and 1860 not only created a new underclass (the natives having been effectively wiped out by violence, drugs and disease) but even (1654, Virginia) subdivided the underclass by allowing blacks to own slaves. 

As for JC, it is an undisputed fact that Top Gear was the BBC's most profitable export to the USA, putting even class-ridden crap like Downton Abbey into the shade.  It seems that some Americans quite like irony and self mockery, but perhaps this level of comedic sophistication hasn't migrated west of the Pecos yet, despite Judge Roy Bean's exemplary protoclarksonism.

As for insufferable boors, the Mayflower carried exactly that class of passenger

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The Pilgrim Fathers saw little chance of England becoming a country in which they wished to live. They viewed it as un-Godly and moving from a bad to worse state......

....."The place they thought of was one of those vast and unpeopled countries of America, which are fruitful and fit for living. There are only savages and brutish men, just like wild beasts."

I could go on, but we are drifting away from the point here. It seems from experiment that examination results show a genetic correlation that can be distinguished from environmental effects. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 16:55:20 by alancalverd »
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #56 on: 31/08/2015 17:45:42 »
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature. The fact that you people prefer to pretend that those faults don't exist, damns your case irretrievably.

America, you see, struggles against racism and sexism and doesn't enshrine them as scientific truth....even in Texas. So, yes, America isn't Britain.....Sir.


It is difficult to admit it, but you may, in fact, be correct. Intelligence may actually be largely inherited  We shall have to see if Prince William has inherited  the keen intelligence and, perhaps, integrity  of Prince Charles.

I shall continue to believe that this is not so - at least until I see a study that includes separated twins and DOESN'T presume that women are of different intelligence. Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately. As a benighted colonial the subtleties of "Genetic Psychology" elude my grasp.

And also I will wait until there is a "scientific" article that doesn't rate a screamer on the front page of the Daily Mail.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 18:46:09 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #57 on: 01/09/2015 00:06:48 »
Quote
It should be noted that regressing out the mean effects of sex from GCSE scores has no bearing on these analyses, which are concerned with the aetiology of variance within the sexes and covariance between the sexes, rather than the phenotypic mean difference between the sexes

Because this is science, not politics, it is important to remember that there is a known difference between GCSE scores for boys and girls.
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Mean sex differences can be seen for English, with girls scoring about one-third of a standard deviation higher than boys, and for mathematics, with boys scoring about one-tenth of a standard deviation higher than girls. No significant mean sex differences were found for science.
This has been observed consistently for years and whatever its cause, it was important to exclude it by means of the statistical analysis, which the authors did.

There was no mention or suggestion of any sex difference in intelligence.

Last time I was in the States, (about 6 months ago) they still had upright urinals in the men's restrooms. I suspect your countrymen are less worried about sexism than you seem to be.

I  haven't spotted the racism in the paper. Perhaps you could point it out. As we never had racially segregated education in the UK (at least not within living memory), it would be rather difficult to measure anyway. So-called religious segregation in Northern Ireland is just another facet of the gang warfare that substitutes for government in that benighted corner of the universe - don't expect me to apologise for that.
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #58 on: 01/09/2015 00:10:40 »
Sir,

Of course this study looks fair to you, Bless your testosterone blinded, Slytherin heart. One would be amazed if it didn't look to be totally on the square.

***********************

Dear Readers,

As much fun as it has been to come here and break a lance with these contemporary Warleggans and Slytherins, the fact of the California drought compels me to stop here.

These encounters engender a furious need for a long hot shower, and I am beset by guilt at the thought that some wee muggle tyke in Tulare county may be forced to share her brothers' old bathwater as a consequence of them.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2015 00:27:36 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #59 on: 01/09/2015 19:41:49 »
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature. The fact that you people prefer to pretend that those faults don't exist, damns your case irretrievably.

America, you see, struggles against racism and sexism and doesn't enshrine them as scientific truth....even in Texas. So, yes, America isn't Britain.....Sir.


It is difficult to admit it, but you may, in fact, be correct. Intelligence may actually be largely inherited  We shall have to see if Prince William has inherited  the keen intelligence and, perhaps, integrity  of Prince Charles.

I shall continue to believe that this is not so - at least until I see a study that includes separated twins and DOESN'T presume that women are of different intelligence. Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately. As a benighted colonial the subtleties of "Genetic Psychology" elude my grasp.

And also I will wait until there is a "scientific" article that doesn't rate a screamer on the front page of the Daily Mail.
Do you understand the irony of saying "because of its obvious racist " when you are the one posting racist comments about "smug white men" here?
As Alan has pointed out, there's no obvious racism in that paper- as far as I can see, race never gets a mention. You are the only one who has brought it up here and, frankly, you are the one who has demonstrated deep prejudice against national and racial groups.

Your continued ranting about "at least until I see a study that includes separated twins" shows that you have yet to understand the research- so you are clearly not competent to comment on it.

As for "Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately."
That's easy.
For any of a thousand reasons- genetic, cultural etc- boys and girls do not typically get the same exam scores.
Fraternal twins have a roughly 50% chance of being the same sex, and a roughly 50% chance of being different sexes.
But identical twins are always the same sex.
So, on that obvious basis, you would expect fraternal twins to have bigger differences between their scores than identical twins.
Since that's exactly the difference that the research is looking at, you need to allow for it.

Since you were unable to work that out for yourself, it seems (once again) that you are not bright enough to understand this piece of work.
It's also not even close to the same as saying that there's a difference between intelligence between the sexes. That's just another of your strawmen.

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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #60 on: 01/09/2015 22:09:39 »
By Gosh, I always thought that Ben Elton was dreaming up those characters in his stories. This thread is like finding long lost works of Wodehouse. THESE are the very same people Psmith encountered in those books. Go know!

Oh well, that kid in Tulare will probably grow up to admire Donald Trump anyway.

Say folks, word is that Ben Elton has a book coming out this December. It should be very good. The comedic quality here is a few pegs lower, but needs must.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2015 22:12:27 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #61 on: 01/09/2015 22:17:47 »
Would you like to try discussing science for a change?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #62 on: 02/09/2015 16:44:16 »
At what point in the paper under discussion was it suggested that anyone should be denied "a fair shot at an education" on any basis whatever? The paper discussed the variance of a few outcomes, and showed that it was significantly greater between heterozygous twins than between homozygous twins. What's the big deal?
Political comments moved to a different thread...Mod
« Last Edit: 09/09/2015 13:41:35 by evan_au »
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #63 on: 02/09/2015 18:12:33 »
It literally makes my skin crawl to discuss this with any British educated person who chooses not to see this "research" in its proper political, historical (and uniquely British) context.

I am hardly amazed that this vile pack of lies flourishes in the same Britain which perpetrated the "Burt Affair".

"Over the course of his career, Burt published numerous articles and books on a host of topics ranging from psychometrics through philosophy of science to parapsychology. It is his research in behaviour genetics, most notably in studying the heritability of intelligence (as measured in IQ tests) using twin studies that have created the most controversy, frequently referred to as "the Burt Affair." Shortly after Burt died it became known that all of his notes and records had been burnt, and he was accused of falsifying research data. The 2007 Encyclopædia Britannica noted that it is widely acknowledged that his later work was flawed and many academics agree that data were falsified, though his earlier work is often accepted as valid.""  [1.]


I am highly unimpressed that the British "naked scientists" here pretend to be innocently unaware of the manky history of "behavioral genetics".

Was you born yesterday, Hoss?

Let me point out, Watson, the singular fact that "Doctor" Plomin's "scientific study" does not mention Cyril Burt's "research" in any manner whatsoever. What did the Tory puppet "Scientist" do in the night, Mister?

[1.] Wikipedia,"Cyril Burt"
« Last Edit: 02/09/2015 18:17:15 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #64 on: 02/09/2015 20:09:12 »
This Plomin bird is hooked up with Michael Gove
Ho hum.
He isn't a bird, he's a bloke and the "bird" hooked up with Michael Gove is Sarah Vine. (and a nastier couple of pieces of work would be hard to find- but they have nothing to do with the paper or its funding)

Everybody knows that Burt's work was faked.
So what?
It's not as if anyone is citing him. It was a long time ago an it wouldn't have passed either  ethics cttee approval or peer review today.

Now, would you like to say what is actually wrong with the science in the paper that Plomin et al wrote?
Or are you actually accepting that, while you don't like the outcome, the actual evidence supports the conclusion?
That's the important question.
Do you agree that the data show a statistically significant link between exam scores and genetics?
If not, please show what error they have made.
Don't cite any more old poets or old psychologists.
Don't quote politics. Don't make racist comments. Don't try to start a conspiracy theory.

Just show us where the scientific error is.
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #65 on: 02/09/2015 20:31:02 »
Poisoned fruit from a poisoned tree.

The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the Charlatans and crooks behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. They figured that enough time had passed that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the general public with this - Hey, Presto! --"Discovery".

That is obvious to anyone.

"Doctor" Plomin received his doctorate from the University of Texas. Has he sworn to its veracity on his honor as a Texan? Because I get a bodacious whiff of George Bush and his Texas WMD horse manure in all of this.
« Last Edit: 09/09/2015 13:43:30 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #66 on: 03/09/2015 19:37:16 »
"The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the Charlatans and crooks behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. "
Bollocks
No paper in nuclear physics these days mentions Blondlot's N rays.
Similarly, Modern biology doesn't mention lamarkian evolution very often.
Modern medicine doesn't cite Benveniste's work on the "memory" of water.

The reason for not mentioning Burt's work is that it's not relevant because it wasn't valid. He cheated.

Now, do you actually have anything to say about the science in the paper?
Are you saying they made up the data or that their mathematical analysis is flawed?
Or do you just not like the outcome?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #67 on: 03/09/2015 19:51:14 »
I think we must go along with Pecos Bill's logic, not least because he won't go along with ours.

It is noticeable that Pecos Bill has not cited Mein Kampf at any point in his argument. He is therefore a Nazi apologist. Nor has he mentioned Das Kapital or the Koran, nor quoted the relevant and seminal works of Aleister Crowley or Lytton Strachey. He is thus a crypto-everything-nasty and Not Safe In Taxis.

By their omissions shall ye know them.   
« Last Edit: 03/09/2015 19:53:01 by alancalverd »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #68 on: 03/09/2015 22:55:55 »
Quote
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature.

The Twins Early Development Study (TEDS) is supported by ........with additional support from the US National Institutes of Health [HD044454; HD059215].

Quote
Now then, a real scientific paper includes a mention of prior research. Plomin's paper fails to do that.

References

    1. Haworth CMA, Asbury K, Dale PS, Plomin R (2011) Added value measures in education show genetic as well as environmental influence. PLoS ONE 6: e16006 doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0016006.t004. .......
3. Loehlin JC, Nichols J (1976) Heredity, environment and personality. Austin: University of Texas......
23. Samuelsson S, Byrne B, Olson RK, Hulslander J, Wadsworth S, et al. (2008) Response to early literacy instruction in the United States, Australia, and Scandinavia: A behavioral-genetic analysis. Learn Individ Differ 18: 289–295 doi: 10.1016/j.lindif.2008.03.004. ........
35. Tseng JCR, Chu H-C, Hwang G-J, Tsai C-C (2008) Development of an adaptive learning system with two sources of personalization information. Comput Educ 51: 776–786 doi: 10.1016/j.compedu.2007.08.002. .........



I think I can see the problem.

Quote
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.
The rest of us are talking about Shakeshaft et al, from which the above italicised quotes are taken. Relax, Bill, and take a deep breath. All is forgiven.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2015 23:06:00 by alancalverd »
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Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #69 on: 04/09/2015 00:21:31 »
Gentlemen, gentlemen....
Let's avoid the personal attacks (or ad hominem arguments, for the linguaphiles among us), and just stick to the science, shall we?

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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #70 on: 04/09/2015 16:23:03 »
Mr. Moderator Sir,

Can you tell me why this Plomin paper from 2013 was presented by you people two years later as some kind of hot news?

.... it is a current political issue. with dangerous implications for the future welfare of children.

Civil enough, Hoss? Or should I upshut and just sit on my hands and whistle?

Close...
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 01:23:24 by evan_au »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #71 on: 04/09/2015 16:48:49 »
I wonder to which paper the honourable gentleman is referring?

The only paper cited in this discussion has eight authors and is properly referenced as Shakeshaft et al. Plomin is indeed one of the authors but is the last mentioned and not the primary contact. 

It is also the case that the said publication lists 35 references to prior work, whereas the paper that Mr Pecos finds objectionable apparently had none, and was part-funded by the US NIH whereas the hon gent asserts that the paper he read would not be touched by an American bargepole.

It is difficult to imagine how the similarity of exam performance of identical twins could become a political issue, any more than their more obvious similarity of physique might be. As far as I know, the spontaneous fission of a blastocyst is not subject to political interference, nor is there any political gain to be made from it.

There may be political implications in a wider aspect of genetics. .... But the finding that identical twins are more similar than fraternal twins surely won't surprise, shock, benefit or harm anyone.
 
Keep it civil... mod
« Last Edit: 04/09/2015 23:31:11 by evan_au »
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #72 on: 04/09/2015 19:49:11 »
In "The Mismeasure of Man" by  Harvard Professor, Stephen Jay Gould we read of the shameful history of biological determinism (another term for the "genetic psychology" of this paper) from obvious fallacy like "Craniometry" right down to the ... Burt Affair.

In my opinion, this is a warmed over re-hash of the Burt Affair, and The Naked Scientists should not have publicized it.

Keep it civil... mod
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 01:29:08 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #73 on: 04/09/2015 22:23:21 »
It is a sad day for you and ... science.
What would truly be a sad day would be if scientists refused to analyse data because people might not like the result.

Please avoid quoting ad-hominem arguments.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 01:25:42 by evan_au »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #74 on: 04/09/2015 22:27:49 »
As to the claims of the infallibility of this research...
Yet another straw man.
Nobody made that claim.
However I have asked you if you have any evidence that the research is not true.
And your reply was "The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the those... behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. They figured that enough time had passed that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the general public with this - Hey, Presto! --"Discovery"...."

Which isn't logically true or remotely relevant.

Would you like to try again?

Please avoid quoting ad-hominem arguments.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 01:26:20 by evan_au »
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #75 on: 05/09/2015 04:01:48 »
I have been asked to avoid "ad hominem " comments. Then I will speak ad populem.

In my opinion as a Scottish-American, the aim of this paper is to deny equal educational opportunity to working class people. In America it is called "tracking" by Donald Trump. See this naked scientist segment for what it is - it's not science.

How long until this is deleted for ostensibly not speaking La-di-dah English?

"ad populem" is just "ad hominem", en masse - moderator.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 11:25:18 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #76 on: 05/09/2015 11:14:50 »
I have been asked to avoid "ad hominem " comments. Then I will speak ad populem.

You don't have to be Scottish -American to see the game being played here. In America it is called "tracking" by the Trump gang. Whatever you want to call it, the aim is to deny equal educational opportunity to working class people --not science. Make no mistake. See this naked scientist program for what it is.  God save America and Scotland from this "science" 

How long until this is deleted for ostensibly not speaking La-di-dah English?
It's more likely to be deleted because you are making a derogatory statement without offering any supporting evidence.

Why not try supporting your position with actual facts and logic rather than poetry and strawmen?

Please avoid repeating derogatory statements - mod.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 11:23:53 by evan_au »
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #77 on: 05/09/2015 16:17:40 »
The history behind this "research" is telling in its nature but it was deleted.

This does not go far to support the claims that there is no hidden agenda at work here to help rob children of their equal right to education,"scientifically"...

As for you, Mister, when will you respond to my question? Why were females presumed to have different intellects by the authors? I would love to see you try that one in America.

Keep it civil...mod
« Last Edit: 09/09/2015 13:38:00 by evan_au »

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Offline cheryl j

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #78 on: 06/09/2015 01:26:42 »
I don't see why in this instance it's an either /or question. That identical twins results were more similar than fraternal twins doesn't seem to rule out that environmental factors could also significantly restrict or enhance their progress.

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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #79 on: 06/09/2015 02:33:32 »
Contrary to the simplistic assumptions of this research, identical twins do not share the exact same DNA [1.] The fact that these people fail to address this issue does not argue well for their candor and integrity.

The moderator has chosen to delete my citations of scientific deceptions in Britain -- including the field of "behavioral genetics" as tangential. I wonder if he would buy a horse without enquiring into the reputation of the seller or would that be too beneath the salt?

These facts coupled with the lack of reproduced results confirming its findings, and the political interest in Plomin's results cause me to be amazed that it has found such dogged insistence here that it is the actual gospel truth ---two years after it was published. Nor do I understand why bona fide gentlemen would subject me to rebuke, scorn and ostracism for expressing my doubts---even in England.

And that is before I ask why these people consider women to be naturally incapable of matching the GCSE scores of men.

At the risk of being "tangential" I include a link to an article called, " The Crumbling Pillars of Behavioral Genetics" in Gene Watch, published by The Council for Responsible Genetics [2.]




[1.] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427204/
[2. ] http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/genewatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=384
« Last Edit: 06/09/2015 02:36:14 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #80 on: 06/09/2015 09:55:50 »

2. As you perfectly well know, all my supporting evidence has been deleted by the moderator as "tangential". I believe that is an example of what passes for "civility" among your sort. In American baseball we call that "corking the bat".

3. Finally, since bored_chemist has chosen to remain in his tent, will YOU answer the question, "Why does this research presuppose the inferiority of women's GCSE scores if they are not, in fact, (how to make this civil enough for your delicate sensitivities? Hmmmmm) ....   sadly fallen prey to the victorian misconceptions as to the true nature of the feminine mind?"
Your so called evidence was deleted because it wasn't relevant.
That's what happens when you cite poetry in science; people start to look really closely at the other stuff you post.
It doesn't matter that some bloke many years ago made up some results in a related field.
The thread is discussing the data that some other group  genuinely found recently.
Do you not understand that?

and re.
"Why does this research presuppose the inferiority of women's GCSE scores if they are not, in fact, (how to make this civil enough for your delicate sensitivities? Hmmmmm) ....   sadly fallen prey to the victorian misconceptions as to the true nature of the feminine mind?"
that's easy.
It doesn't presupose anything of the sort.
That's another strawman of yours.

Why not quote the bit where you think it says that they assume women are inferior and then we can explain to you what it really means.

(You may struggle with this as the paper never actually mentions women),.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #81 on: 06/09/2015 10:12:13 »
I don't see why in this instance it's an either /or question. That identical twins results were more similar than fraternal twins doesn't seem to rule out that environmental factors could also significantly restrict or enhance their progress.
It doesn't. Indeed, the study assumes that the environment does affect their results.
That effect is pretty much the same for pairs of twins.
So twins should have very similar scores.
But the way that identical twins are treated is pretty much the same as the way that fraternal twins are treated.
Both types of twins grow up in the same household, the same culture, the same wealth or poverty.
So the difference in scores between pairs of identical twins should be the same as the difference in scores between pairs of fraternal twins.

But it isn't.
There is a bigger difference with the fraternal twins than with the identical ones.
And the only difference is genetic.
Identical twins are much more genetically similar than fraternal twins.
So, the variation of scores is different for the two, and the only difference between the groups is genetics.
So there's a genetic component to the scores.

Bills' observation that identical twins are not strictly genetically identical is true and relevant.
But it argues against his point of view.
That difference should "wash out" the effect that is seen.
But, in spite of the small differences between identical twins, the effect shows up.
The effect of genetics  must be slightly stronger than that calculated by the model.
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #82 on: 06/09/2015 18:17:57 »
As to the claim that these people don't presuppose that women don't match men in their GCSE scores....

" Quantitative sex differences refer to differences for ACE parameter estimates for male and female twin pairs. Qualitative sex differences indicate that different genes or different environmental factors influence males and females, which is suggested when the correlation for dizygotic opposite-sex (DZO) twins is less than the correlations for same-sex DZ pairs, based on the assumption that genetic or environmental influences that are specific to one sex will reduce within-pair similarity for the DZO group"  [1.]

Is this paper sexist? If the shoe fits- wear it and weep.

 [1.]  http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080341

*****************************

Gracious me!

I haven't encountered such fervid efforts to sell me some dodgy "facts" since  George Bush and Tony Blair were whipping up the mob to invade  Iran.

I got banned from the "Letters to the Editor" for expressing my doubts then as well.

I don't care if every "Behavioral geneticist" in the world testifies to the value of this research  --it still reeks to me of yellow cake, aluminum tubes, and secret mobile poison gas factories.

Or is comparing the push to sell this paper to the push to sell the Iraq fiasco too "tangential" for you.
This bit of hyperbole is out of scope for this thread.
Rationale: This forum is primarily about Science (and its impact on society). The science of WMD is sufficiently removed from the science of twin studies that it belongs in a different thread. - Mod.


***************
Mr. bored_chemist disparages me for having quoted T.S. Elliot here as reason to refute this "research". Had more people read Elliot's poetry in 2002 there might not be hordes of people thirsting for our blood today.  And a careful reading of Elliot's poetry today would show the soulless denial of humanity which underlies this "research".
« Last Edit: 07/09/2015 03:48:42 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #83 on: 06/09/2015 18:58:36 »
Do you actually understand that there is a difference between
" we found differences" and we "presuppose the inferiority of women's GCSE scores" ?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #84 on: 06/09/2015 22:01:01 »
Humanity is sexist. There are boys and there are girls, they look different, have different chromosomes, and they have different biological functions. It turns out (not that anyone "presupposes" it) that they also get different scores in public examinations, which explains why the majority of medical students in the UK are female. For this reason it is important to correct for the underlying sex differences in various subjects if you want to maximise the yield of statistical data from twin studies.

It's somewhat bizarre to criticise people for reading an allegedly racist paper published in 2013, by quoting
an antisemitic  poet who had the decency to die in 1965.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2015 23:12:54 by alancalverd »
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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #85 on: 06/09/2015 23:25:44 »
In my opinion, women's different GCSE scores than those of men cannot depend on their DNA...

It is curious, is it not, that calling T.S. Elliot an anti-semite here is not deleted  as "tangential" by the moderator as long, it seems, as it is uttered by an Englishman? ...

When I cited Elliot's poem, "The Hollow Men" I was linking to people who hold that the sum of a person's humanity is encapsulated in their DNA. For what else is "Behavioral genetics" when you strip away its window dressing?

Reader, after the AI singularity what will your children's fate be when soulless machines have assessed their DNA for its possibilities?  The behavioral genetics people claim that I am an alarmist  -- besides being familiar with poetry.
This "ad hominem" is becoming "ad nauseum"...Mod

« Last Edit: 07/09/2015 06:50:51 by Pecos_Bill »

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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #86 on: 07/09/2015 06:45:19 »
The gentleman states that since the majority of medical students in the UK are female this is evidence against gender discrimination because of their GCSE scores.

Here is evidence ( in the BMJ) that female doctors in the UK earn 29% less than male doctors. [1.]Now then, is that a natural effect because they have inherited it in their DNA being, after all, ...girls?  The behavioral geneticists differentiated them in this study because they assumed so. Is that not so?

I am a retired male RN.  Friends and neighbors do NOT try to feed me baloney about how fairly women are treated. I have watched them - and often borne that same burden. We have gotten the shaft throughout my career by smug "gentlemen" just like these "scientists" who call themselves "Behavioral geneticists".

[1.]  http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20019204

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Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #87 on: 07/09/2015 07:15:46 »
Readers,

I had originally come to this place because as a retired RN, I enjoy still helping people with their medical questions. I became embroiled in this matter because it seemed to be a perversion of medicine for very tawdry, mean political ends. Having devoted my life to medicine, that sickens me. I would have been ashamed of myself in front of those who taught me the art and science of nursing had I failed to confront such a perversion, so help me God.

If I get the chance, I would like to help some more people here, we shall have to see.
Political comments moved to a different thread...Mod
« Last Edit: 09/09/2015 13:32:25 by evan_au »

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #88 on: 07/09/2015 15:07:20 »
In my opinion, women's different GCSE scores than those of men cannot depend on their DNA...

A worthy opinion, but not tested by the paper (you would do well to read it before criticising it). The fact is that boys and girls score differently in different subjects, for whatever reason, so if you are looking for an inherited factor you have to correct for that potentially confounding variable, which they did.   


Quote
The gentleman states that since the majority of medical students in the UK are female this is evidence against gender discrimination because of their GCSE scores.

You would get more respect if you refrained from garbling other people's utterances into complete drivel. The point is that if you select people on the basis of their exam scores and interview performance, more girls than boys seem suited to medical studies. Whether this indicates discrimination against males or not depends on the relative performance and weighting of different examination subjects at A level (not GCSE) for which I have only anecdotal evidence that girls generally outperform boys in all subjects except physics - an unexplained anomaly, and quite irrelevant to the present discussion.

Quote
Here is evidence ( in the BMJ) that female doctors in the UK earn 29% less than male doctors. [1.]Now then, is that a natural effect because they have inherited it in their DNA being, after all, ...girls?

Yes! As in every other profession, women tend to take time out to raise children during their career development phase and often return to work part-time, and usually in the public sector, thus reducing both their career prospect and maximum earning potential. For those who stay, the public sector offers equal session pay at all levels and there is no earnings limit in the private sector. I pay my radiologists for what they do, not what they are, and since female patients generally prefer to see a female doctor, the women in my team can take home more than the men. Whether they do is up to them.

Quote
The behavioral geneticists differentiated them in this study because they assumed so. Is that not so?

No. If you had read the paper, you would know that there was no assumption. The statistics were based on actual examination results, which showed consistent gender differences, so they discussed and corrected for those differences.

If there is a difference between our cultures, and if you and I represent it, then I'm pleased to live on the side of the Atlantic where we are taught to examine the patient before diagnosing, and to read the instructions before administering the treatment!
« Last Edit: 08/09/2015 17:29:04 by alancalverd »
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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #89 on: 07/09/2015 20:07:41 »
In reviewing my last posts, the biased interference of the moderator has shown me what a rigged game is being run here. I refuse to participate further in this charade of an open, honest  debate. 

You have yet to participate in this debate.
In a debate, if someone poses a question, you are expected to answer it or accept that you are wrong.
Posting poetry isn't an acceptable response.

You have totally failed to support essentially any assertion you have made (apart from a  few commonplace ones that nobody ever disputed anyway such as the fact that women are discriminated against or that Burt told lies).
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Offline evan_au

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MOVED: Who controls the Naked Scientists?
« Reply #90 on: 09/09/2015 13:13:50 »
This topic on editorial control of the Naked Scientists show and Forum has been moved to New Theories.

Subsequent discussion of politics on this Physiology & Medicine thread is banned.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=60152.0

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #91 on: 09/09/2015 18:24:00 »
As to the claim that these people don't presuppose that women don't match men in their GCSE scores....

" Quantitative sex differences refer to differences for ACE parameter estimates for male and female twin pairs. Qualitative sex differences indicate that different genes or different environmental factors influence males and females, which is suggested when the correlation for dizygotic opposite-sex (DZO) twins is less than the correlations for same-sex DZ pairs, based on the assumption that genetic or environmental influences that are specific to one sex will reduce within-pair similarity for the DZO group"  [1.]



You should distinguish betwen presupposition and observed fact. See my earlier response on this subject.
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #92 on: 11/09/2015 15:13:01 »
In reading this thread, a tear was brought to my eye seeing that the Naked Scientists have shown how  the genetic basis for paying women differently is absolute scientific truth. Of course British women doctors are paid 29% less because they are, ipso facto, genetically women. I mean, Duh! It's just  what I intend to tell my new bride when she learns enough English to speak with the neighborhood women.

I am so pleased as well to see that disgusting Pecan Bob person has now departed. The absolute gall of that person to say that these good men here were playing with a  " twerked" bat. The very idea is so ludicrous. Well, we have shown the world, haven't we? I notice the new verification methods to prevent future disturbances from such riff-raff and bearded anarchists. What times, eh?

God bless the naked scientists, Dr. Plomin, and England!

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #93 on: 11/09/2015 18:27:07 »
Dear FU

The correspondence here has pointed out exactly the opposite of your assertions on the pay of women doctors in the UK.

Like PB, you seem to believe in your own psychic ability, to the extent of summarising arguments that you clearly have not read.
 
Be careful crossing the road.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2015 18:30:50 by alancalverd »
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #94 on: 11/09/2015 19:32:40 »
Thank God you have cleared that up, Sir!

For who could ever doubt the word of a British Gentleman when it comes to "The rights of women"? (Cf: Mary Wolltonstonescraft for historical context).

Even though you appear to be talking out of the other side of your mouth - again -- I am sure that is only due to my misapprehension of your earnest desire to be fair to the "weaker sex".

However, to avoid a lamentable accusation of being "ad hominem" perhaps you would show me the courtesy to address me by the private messages facility -- instead of publicly here -- so that I may respond to you more appropriately.

I am not, you see, one of the naked scientist elect and not allowed to pretend that I am speaking in condescending contempt to people after they have been secretly eliminated.

We naked scientist wallahs do so love having the last word. Do we not?

But this thread risks becoming tedious with you rhyming variations of your original theme.

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #95 on: 11/09/2015 22:51:37 »
Alas, you seem to be cut from the same cloth as that fellow Pecos. Curious chap, started off full of interesting information and searching questions, then got a bee in his bonnet about a paper he clearly hadn't read, tried to cover his embarrassment with irrelevant insults, and rather lost credibility. We scientists just say "OK, I was wrong" and get on with life, because science is all about having your preconceptions challenged by facts.

So don't expect any PMs from me: if it can't be said in public, it's probably not worth saying.

If you happen to come across Pecos Bill in your exploration of cyberspace, you might pass this on:

 
Quote
Sept. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Female physicians in the U.S. continue to earn less than their male counterparts, with the pay gap widening during the past two decades to more than $50,000 annually in 2010, researchers said.

Women doctors had a median annual income of $165,278 from 2006 to 2010, compared with yearly earnings of $221,297 for male physicians, according to the report published today in JAMA Internal Medicine. While the annual pay for women doctors has increased since the median of $134,995 in 1990, it’s only now beginning to approach the $168,795 annually earned by men 20 years ago, the researchers found.

He will probably point out that a 25.5% earnings gap compared wth 29% in the UK just shows that the USA is a haven of gender equality, but he might just have a lucid moment and ask his alter ego whether there's something other than prejudice involved.     
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #96 on: 12/09/2015 01:39:24 »
I recall Pecos_Bill saying that while people still struggle against sexism in America, they do not cook up phony pseudo science to claim it is due to genetic difference there. He made that point clearly shortly before he was eliminated by the forum's puppet master because it nauseated him (the puppet-master) to hear it.

Quote
Sorry Pecos_Bill, you are banned from using this forum!
Ad hominem, ad nauseum

After Pecos_Bill's "disapperance" we heard - at great length - these two gentlemen hammering on and on -now with no voice to refute them -- in classic "Big Lie" thuggish tactics. Give em the old razzle-dazzle! [1.]

Oh dear, have I upset your delicate Sassanach sensitivities by saying this? Will I, too, not survive the night? The suspense is terrible. I hope it lasts.

[1.]  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5-0uPJXPlI
« Last Edit: 12/09/2015 01:48:27 by Franklin_Uhuru »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #97 on: 12/09/2015 14:11:16 »
I recall Pecos_Bill saying that while people still struggle against sexism in America, they do not cook up phony pseudo science to claim it is due to genetic difference there. He made that point clearly shortly before he was eliminated by the forum's puppet master because it nauseated him (the puppet-master) to hear it.

Quote
Sorry Pecos_Bill, you are banned from using this forum!
Ad hominem, ad nauseum

After Pecos_Bill's "disapperance" we heard - at great length - these two gentlemen hammering on and on -now with no voice to refute them -- in classic "Big Lie" thuggish tactics. Give em the old razzle-dazzle! [1.]

Oh dear, have I upset your delicate Sassanach sensitivities by saying this? Will I, too, not survive the night? The suspense is terrible. I hope it lasts.

[1.]  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5-0uPJXPlI
And your evidence that the science is phony is...?
Or are yo just making an unjustified claim because you don't like the outcome?
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Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #98 on: 12/09/2015 23:36:58 »
Has British science not learned its lesson from Wakefield's recent autism/vaccination British crime against humanity?  Guess not. Just as Burt's behavioral genetics crimes have now been swept under the rug. Too old and irrelevant , they say.

Quote
In "The Mismeasure of Man" by  Harvard Professor, Stephen Jay Gould we read of the shameful history of biological determinism (another term for the "genetic psychology" of this paper) from obvious fallacy like "Craniometry" right down to the ... Burt Affair.[deleted text here]
In my opinion, this [paper] is a warmed over re-hash of the Burt Affair, and The Naked Scientists should not have publicized it.
 

Quote
The history behind this "research" is telling in its nature but it was deleted.
 

Quote
The moderator has chosen to delete my citations of scientific deceptions in Britain -- including the field of "behavioral genetics" as tangential. 


Here is a list of discussions of Wakefield here to show that is the case..
1.  Topic: Was Doctor Andrew Wakefield Right After all? http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=51468.0

2.     Topic: VACCINES INTERVIEW   http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2810.0

3.    Topic: Is there a link between vaccination and autism? http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=13710.0;nowap


It should have been allowed so as to compare this similarly dodgy research in "behavioral genetics" to let the readers decide themselves.
« Last Edit: 14/09/2015 12:54:31 by evan_au »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #99 on: 13/09/2015 10:02:40 »
The fact that some people like Burt and Wakefield have been charlatans is well recognised.
But it has nothing to do with this research because those charlatans didn't take part in it.

Do you have either an alternative explanation for the observation of more similar scores for identical twins or evidence that the science in the paper is flawed?

If not you have nothing to say except that you don't like the results.
« Last Edit: 14/09/2015 12:55:32 by evan_au »
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