Science and God - Does it mix ?

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #100 on: 30/04/2004 01:04:51 »
Nicely said  Justy......but I suppose he/she/it could say with as much passion as you have that he/she/it is just giving he/she/its point of view just like everybody else....I wouldn't take it to heart so much...everyone has their right to their own opinion just like you have, like we all have and can express it accordingly. From an athiests point of view I suppose a lot of the posts on this thread are also offensive, like they are being preached to. I think what God is actually saying that this website is fundamentally about Scientific subjects, excluding deities..........well..that's my 2 cents worth anyway...I'm not saying I agree or disagree just defending 'Gods' right to equally state an opinion.........one more thing....LETS HAVE A POLL.......

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #101 on: 30/04/2004 01:10:35 »
........also with regards to your point about big wonderful jugs.., you most probably wouldn't find porn on a site like this...well...I suppose we could start a thread called Porn and Science does it mix ?....I suppose there is always going to be a strong conflict of interest when two subjects such as science and god are brought up...In some cases one is considered the antithesis of the other .......

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #102 on: 30/04/2004 01:27:38 »
...Justy....mate...hope you don't think I'm being confrontational..I'm not...no no no.....I just felt that the way god has provoked a reaction in you, others could well be as easily provoked by the religious attitudes of others here.....Hey !!..I think I'd make a good arbiter....how ever, I must admit I am an athiest but I'm trying to be objective and just seeing that god is one person giving their subjective point of view.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #103 on: 30/04/2004 06:10:41 »
its all good neil...  we can still be friends (until we die and I go to hevan and you burn in the firey pits of hell [}:)])  but even then I'll still write
[8D]
(totally joking)

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!
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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #104 on: 30/04/2004 12:01:53 »
Phew !!..Thanks Justy !!..me and my neuroses !!....last thing I wanted to do was upsetmy fly fancier mate the Lord of The Flies !!!..Hey....how come you haven't changed your title yet ?

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #105 on: 01/05/2004 07:31:03 »
I put a request in the chat section, but haven't gotten a reply.  isn't that what you're supposed to do?

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!
<font color="maroon"></font id="maroon">How much CAML do you have in your toes? [;)]

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #106 on: 01/05/2004 11:27:28 »
If you email Chris at chris@thenakedscientist.com that should sort it !!

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

Edit: I put in the naked scientist address as the other one is more personal and the webtrawlers that go through the net would pick it up; and just like me, he start getting junk offering viagra, porn passwords etc... (sorry to gatecrash your post there neil me old buddy!)
« Last Edit: 01/05/2004 11:52:55 by Exodus »
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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #107 on: 01/05/2004 12:27:05 »
Thanks Richy....I was actually kinda thinking that I ought to have sought you out and ask first!!!..sorry...but I'm glad my partner in crime was watching over my shoulder.......You Voyeur you !!!

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline Exodus

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #108 on: 01/05/2004 15:54:20 »
no probs!

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #109 on: 01/05/2004 19:12:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by GOD

I do not recognise your choice of Hydrogen or eternal Alien !!!

To be concise instead of elaborate. One view as to the absolute uncreated origin of the cosmos is a great cloud of Hydrogen, there are others that I lesser well know. {Multiple dimensions, 12-14} And some believe in an uncreated self existing God, which to us is an alien.

and I can see no viable historicity at all. And why should I have to consider that an alien exists in that primordial place above time ?...show me a burning bush !!..show me Noahs Ark !!
It is not done among scholars and academics of the field of history to claim the non historicity of Christ... Moses lived too. For example in some deserted towns they unearthed pork bones and found evidence that shortly after there was no more consumption of pork but lamb instead... You can test the middle easterners for common DNA, ie Abraham's... From the Exodus on the Bible has evidences which are scientific. Ancient Kings' all had historians, it is part of civil life. We can compare Isreal's with Assyria's and Rome's...

Really, our western Justice systems are based on the Bible! It is well examined and scrutinized!!! Solomon is a bit hard to prove. We sure know the temple mount is there. I accept your skepticism tho. I did'nt always believe it.

Don't we usually like to ponder the idea of life elsewhere in exotic places {like other dimensions}...? We know of no simpler dimensions than our four. If there are others than they'd be above time, wouldn't they? Such aliens are the stuff of popular novels, as in Vonnegut's "The Slaughterhouse Five". You are only invited to consider it.


The Bible is a great work of fiction and that is all it is
The Bible is more well known and studied than for you to write that. Like other civilizations Israel kept records and they are used by archeologists among non believers. Israel was often brutally attacked yet survived as a nation!

this site is not for preaching
I did not start any of these threads which are preachy.

The bottom line is that you are so inherently filled with the belief that there has to be a supernatural being behind the creation of the universe that there is no compromise in your thought process whatsoever....why do you have this indelible mindset ?..Just tell us all WHY there has to be a creator..why why why ?
I had a poor upbringing. I remember a natural uplifting turn of events. Yet I could see that as I sinned I became sadder. At 18 thinking I would soon die and wanting to turn away from sins I was convicted, trembled and prayed and diciplined myself to turn.

I then experienced a knowing of a presence before me which I was sure was Jesus. It was as if He passed His hand thru my heart and lifted off a foul burden of ill conscience and sadness. I was forgiven and exuberent. There was an internal witness of God and memorable change. A knowing and a heart and conscience experience.

This was followed by many experiences in which my secret thoughts were revealed and my secret questions were answered spontaneously and on prerecorded broadcasts. A simple example involved a young man desribing an aircraft I had mentally only designed, that was after prayer, to comfort me.  People far apart would talk about the same issues with me and once  two unrelated evangelists quoted one of my prayers and it's modification...

I experienced fear and sin driven off after a prayer for Jesus blood. I was refreshed inwardly by a small drink of living water and two others claimed they could see this water in me.

I saw people manifesting demons and felt the numbing presence of God's Spirit.

As in the Gospel [Gethsamane], I have many times drawn back and fallen to the ground before I AM...,...


Titanscape
« Last Edit: 01/05/2004 19:20:36 by Titanscape »
Titanscape

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Offline Donnah

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #110 on: 03/05/2004 20:17:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

its all good neil...  we can still be friends (until we die and I go to hevan and you burn in the firey pits of hell [}:)])  but even then I'll still write
[8D]
(totally joking)

Justin, you'll have to email Neil.  A letter would burn.  ;-)
"Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms." - Audrey Hepburn

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #111 on: 03/05/2004 22:11:58 »
Justy could always right it on an asbestos board !!

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'
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Offline Reconnect

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #112 on: 04/05/2004 00:21:25 »
Modern science and religion are flawed by the same belief in true and false.

These opposites are answers but not solutions, one is not anymore true or false than the other.
Cause and effect is flawed, organic life comes into being under a particular set of conditions.

The bible or other material from the past are attempts to convay understandings that we have had for a long time.
We are losing this connection with understanding by claiming things in actual existance are no longer real.

Does god exist?  Of course!  Your contemplation brings this entity into being!  

If it exists in your mind it is alive in the actual existance of reality.

Those who do not believe in god or science are blind!

















Two rights don't make a left, but three do.
Two rights don't make a left, but three do.

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #113 on: 04/05/2004 06:13:09 »
wow.... in all my years listening to people debate this subject I never considered that point of view!

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!
<font color="maroon"></font id="maroon">How much CAML do you have in your toes? [;)]

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Offline Reconnect

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #114 on: 04/05/2004 13:46:04 »
I believe this is how the great pyramid was built, it shows that the human race was in touch (eccentricly) with nature many thousands of years ago.

newbielink:http://www.thepump.org [nonactive]

We place our modern view on an object and when it doesnt fit we blame the object and not our view.

You can watch the road but not see a car.

You can listen to the road but not hear a car.

You hear with you senses and see with your mind.

Embedded in the eye is the ear, and embedded in the ear is the eye.

Its a 2 way thing, the relationship brings them in to being.



Two rights don't make a left, but three do.
Two rights don't make a left, but three do.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #115 on: 26/07/2005 21:32:32 »
Just briging this thread up to the top so that all religious stuff can be debated here instead of the 'god poll' thread....cheers everybody.

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #116 on: 27/07/2005 01:59:05 »
Dangerous topic this.
I got involved in another one on another forum few years back.
Tempers and emotions RAN WILD.
Language and threats went too far and I believe some members were even banned from the forum.
Sometimes it can be hard to stay out of some topics, but on this occasion its lessons learnt.



« Last Edit: 27/07/2005 02:01:09 by ukmicky »

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Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #117 on: 27/07/2005 02:11:39 »
The evidence is there for evolution- even so that it needs to be considered the status quo.
Does this mean that religionists need to feel defensive? No. It is not possible to prove the nonexistence of God. Faith is supposed to be a good thing- if you believe, more power to you. Just do not insist that I believe, or that my tax money be utilized to enforce the viewpoint of your religious sect. Remember,love thy neighbor and turn your other cheek to thine enemy.
It is absurd in one sense for science and religion to struggle for power. If we were more tolerant and flexible, we would comprehend that there is no inherent contradiction between the two.

chris wiegard
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Offline Bilbisaur

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #118 on: 27/07/2005 11:33:18 »
Fresh discussions from other places:

This thread has basically become an argument of semantics. What you and others have shown and expressed here are conjectures, based on observations, made by men who are not you. Not one of you can claim you have observed, first-hand, the workings of the living universe. The Bible, is a record of conjectures based on occurences, also observed by men. Scientists observed their surroundings and made ussumptions based on the way they percieved data. You read these links and books and they appealed to your thinking, although you did not witness the mechanics. Men in the Bible observed miracles and percieved the glory of God. I read the Bible and knew it to be the truth, although I have not, thus-far, been blessed to observe a miracle. Take for example the story of Jesus feeding the masses(according to the account the crowd was quite sizable, certainly in the hundreds)with four fish and two loaves of bread. Having no cause to impugn the credability of this incident, having not witnessed it, for the purposes of this example, assume the story is true. Explain to me in a scientific manner, how can this be achieved? Assuming the story is true, it is not scientificly possible. So the question really should be, which record of the origion appeals to you? Who do you trust?

I have to say it is ironic. Terribly contradictory.

He says "based on observations, made by men who are not you.", when he himself said the Bible was "observed by men".

So that person knows what is the truth just because he read the Bible? Just because he read the Bible, it is the truth and evolution is wrong. So now it's a struggle of the first book for babies huh?


Indications are the argument against BOTH sides. I want to see an appropriate reply with absolutely NO indications in it, no second guessing, hard proof. You replied to me with ideas that are not absolute proof, or incredulously strong proof, but just strongly assume an idea. If you reply with "How can you prove god exists with no absolute proof" then the same must apply to you; stop throwing out either, and give the strongest of proof, just proof. This whole thread is "This suggests a god" vs "This suggests the scientific theories", quit suggesting, there are many topics that are proven, in which case, I beleave the actual extent of evolution to be proven (when I say actual extent, as in to the extent that has no second guessing).


Plus he didn't read someone's 24 links to information.

If and when when scientists finally prove the theory of Evolution, God will still be as real to me as the day before they proved it.

This means that Christians can't be swayed. So I can believe in supernatural turtles when Taoism is correct, and they will still be as real to me as the day before Taoism was proved.

Sorry for the sarcastic/angry tone but when you're brought to a Christian blog by your sister but forced to not post anything you can't help but feel angry at that trick.

Please give your comments =)

________________________________________________
The Bible has flaws but is still correct
Evolution has flaws but is still wrong
Any logic or justice in that?
________________________________________________
The Bible has flaws but is still correct
Evolution has flaws but is still wrong
Any logic or justice in that?

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #119 on: 27/07/2005 12:53:39 »
Strongly religious people do not evolve their ideas, as a rule they want to keep things as they think they are or should be.

Darwin says only adaptation (fitness) can lead to survival. Christianity is in steep decline, and can only hope to prolong its existence by keeping in touch with the education system (by having their 'theories' enforced in the curriculum on an equal footing with evolution theory).

So, on the face of it, it would seem that Darwin has already proved his point (although he was very religious himself), and Christianity is already resorting to 'cheating' (by having their message 'enforced' in schools).

If they are prevented to do so, I predict their natural near-extinction in a few decades only, or if they are allowed to influence the youth any further, somewhat longer, but not more than a century or so.

So no, even if science is partly evolved from the same roots as religion, even more than scientists would like to think, the two in my view are not compatible in their current form.
Pure 'repeat-after-me' religion must go, but the same goes for all repeat-after-me schools of thought.

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
Errare humanum esd.-- Biggus D.

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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #120 on: 29/07/2005 03:51:26 »
I'll bite on this rather divisive topic. Like the emergency room guy, I have seen an automobile accident victim (a good friend of mine) come out of shock after a 60 second prayer. The nurse could not get a pulse and reported just "thready" before being asked to leave the room with the doctors. When they returned 60 seconds later, my friend still had 2 broken ribs and a broken femur, but her pulse was stong and steady. Those that know emergency medicine, will know that she was now out of danger.

This is not an explanation or an argument for conversion to my religion (which will remain unnamed). It is just to point out that there is still a lot that we don't know, and we don't understand. And keeping an open mind is very scientific. Most religions are about a pholosiphy of life, a way of living and treating your fellow human beings. Obviously not all religions are equal in this task. But many good people and good scientists belive they have a responsibility to be more than just a materialist. That does not make them bad scientists.

There is also the question of mental and moral stability. I have seen nut cases in churches and disparing people with no spirituality. To me what makes the difference in a man/woman is not what happens to him, but how he deals with the adversity that life deals out. Here some religions have been beneficial. Yesuah ben Joseph offered a few pointers in his teachings: 1) check the fruit of a religion - good trees produce good fruit 2) try it out and see if it works for you, and 3) for those spritually inclined, pray for an answer.

He also didn't believe that his followers would ever be more than seasoning in the world, so religion is not for everyone. But there will be many good and honest people who are not followers of his particular religion. Live with it, and yes, accept the diversity of mankind. And as I read it: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for their's is the kingdom of heaven", since righteousness is truth, all scientists have a free pass to heaven...

David
David

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Offline gary_lankford

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #121 on: 29/07/2005 05:41:48 »
Very good, David!

What is man?  A body…  Arms and hands, legs and feet, head and shoulders, ears, eyes, nose and mouth, a torso, and genitals…  Muscles, liver, kidneys, stomach, heart, brain, cartilage, bone, guts and blood…  A mass of differentiated cells…  Proteins, fats, carbohydrates, water, mineral depositions…  Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur, calcium, sodium, phosphorus, chlorine…  Atomic particles: protons, neutrons, electrons spinning…  Or clouds…  

Man, more nothing than something, and yet solid to his own touch, understanding his surroundings to the limit of his understanding.  Having “personality,” able to conceive his own origin, believing that he exists in fact, because he holds his own presence as proof, yet he is as improbable as any conception.  The man, so improbable cedes, perhaps, the possibility of forces beyond his understanding, but glibly denies “personality” to the very forces which make him possible; forces that stand self-evident and yet far beyond man's understanding.

What need has He to prove to you that He exists?  It is for you to prove His existence to yourself, by seeking Him.

Mat 7:7 “Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you.


Gary Lankford
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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #122 on: 29/07/2005 06:20:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by David Sparkman

I'll bite on this rather divisive topic. Like the emergency room guy, I have seen an automobile accident victim (a good friend of mine) come out of shock after a 60 second prayer. The nurse could not get a pulse and reported just "thready" before being asked to leave the room with the doctors. When they returned 60 seconds later, my friend still had 2 broken ribs and a broken femur, but her pulse was stong and steady. Those that know emergency medicine, will know that she was now out of danger.

This is not an explanation or an argument for conversion to my religion (which will remain unnamed). It is just to point out that there is still a lot that we don't know, and we don't understand. And keeping an open mind is very scientific. Most religions are about a pholosiphy of life, a way of living and treating your fellow human beings. Obviously not all religions are equal in this task. But many good people and good scientists belive they have a responsibility to be more than just a materialist. That does not make them bad scientists.

There is also the question of mental and moral stability. I have seen nut cases in churches and disparing people with no spirituality. To me what makes the difference in a man/woman is not what happens to him, but how he deals with the adversity that life deals out. Here some religions have been beneficial. Yesuah ben Joseph offered a few pointers in his teachings: 1) check the fruit of a religion - good trees produce good fruit 2) try it out and see if it works for you, and 3) for those spritually inclined, pray for an answer.

He also didn't believe that his followers would ever be more than seasoning in the world, so religion is not for everyone. But there will be many good and honest people who are not followers of his particular religion. Live with it, and yes, accept the diversity of mankind. And as I read it: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for their's is the kingdom of heaven", since righteousness is truth, all scientists have a free pass to heaven...

David



Thank you for answering. I didn't expect people to 'bite' really, since I'm no fisherman. Only hoped for someone to come with arguments of faith instead of religious ones. The difference between faith and religion for me is that the former is purely personal and cannot be abused really, and the latter certainly isn't, and I wonder if it was ever created for anything BUT an instrument of abuse on a far larger scale than the personal. If I remember correctly the root of religare has to do with binding, like pages in a book, similarly to the fasces rods bound together to give us... the symbol that was taken over by Mussolini's fascists. Most Roman-Catholic church paraphernaila and nomenclature is taken straight from the Roman Empire, btw. The 'Pontifex Maximus' or 'Divine' Bridgebuilder - the title of the pope, indicating his succession of Christ in that function on Earth was the title of the highest Roman priest, etc. etc.

So the two are distinct, and the latter is highly suspect in my view, a kind of 'cosa nostra' of middle men between you and God, with similar ties into every part of normal peoples lives, from birth to death, and as unavoidable as taxes.

OK, back to your experience. The human psyche is divided along different strata, and the 'rational', lucid every day side is only one of them. Another can be hypnotised, falls for the placebo effect, and will drop dead in Africa when a juju priest points a wooden stick at them, or begin to sweat when they feel 'guilt', which is a social or cultural emotion, and needs to be cultivated in a person, it does not appear easily by itself. Now that latter emotion is my main gripe with 'religion' since that is exactly what is plays upon, in many different ways.

So faith is important, and personal and should not be twisted into some kind of social instrument of abuse or 'interest group' creating either a powerstructure that leeches wealth and human capabilities without giving anything in return, by playing on people's emotional and existential needs.

So if you have a personal relationship with God, and it's enhanced by sharing it with others, fine by me. Start a powerbroker game or filling in your hidden political agenda by pouring money and pressure on political figures to 'enhance' your worldviews, and you're not a believer anymore, you're just trying to improve your tribe's position in THIS world, not the next.

And start sniping abortion doctors, and you're just an organised terrorist, in my view, fit to be dumped forever in a Private Guantanamo all by yourself.

Not a man of God, since God is all there is. All.

And never just what YOU think, or desire. That's the essential blasphemy and original sin, if you want my opinion. Think you're called to the job?

Walk on water.




Errare humanum esd.-- Biggus D.

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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #123 on: 29/07/2005 13:08:39 »
Walking on water is easy, the second time...

David
David

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #124 on: 29/07/2005 13:37:10 »
Don't forget the holes in your feet from your crucifixion. [:)]

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
Errare humanum esd.-- Biggus D.

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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #125 on: 29/07/2005 20:31:20 »
Yea, well the holes came afterwards, but I was thinking about that Chris Columbus trick of standing an egg on end. The second time is always easier than the first time, 'cause you know the "trick" (correct approach to the problem as we engineers like to say).

Miricals arn't magic in my book, they are just an application of the principles and laws of the universe. Magic is just a name given to stuff we don't understand. Try showing a liberal arts guy how you can take a line, rotate and integrate it and get the formula for the area of a circle, rotate the circle though the third demension and get the volume of a sphere. It is wonderful magic for all those who struggled though high school geomerty.

Right now I am just trying to find where I left my anti-grav belt. [:)]

David
« Last Edit: 29/07/2005 20:32:16 by David Sparkman »
David

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #126 on: 29/07/2005 20:59:25 »
I'm sorry, I thought you meant at your Second Coming.

I think it was Asimov who said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, exactly because you indeed do not know how it works - at all. Not a clue.

Careful with anti-grav belts, they don't work in space where you'd be using centrifugal forces to *mimick* gravity, and jumping off a goody height in one of those large stations while jauntily flipping on your belt will be your last conscious act. Won't work. You'd go splot.

So indeed, you'd be hit dead as if by magic. Lack of properly understanding the technology involved.

Understanding how boson density works makes walking on water much easier, of course.
Almost like cheating. [:)]

[edit dybo]
« Last Edit: 29/07/2005 21:01:30 by chimera »
Errare humanum esd.-- Biggus D.

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Offline gary_lankford

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #127 on: 29/07/2005 21:14:01 »
Go David!

Kinda like light theory.  It should be obvious that wave theory and particle theory are just models that fairly well explain the behavoir of light under varying conditions, but that light will finally be explained by a single model along lines that no man has yet conceived; probably neither as waves or particles.  The ideas of waves and particles are just models we apply because we are familiar with them from our physical surroundings.  They are metaphors for our observations of light.  

You would think that "scientists" (truth seekers) would be the most open in seeking things that are beyond understanding, instead they are among the most dogmatic and close-minded.  Then they deny that they are religious.  Religion is just a way of life adherred to consistently.  Something we should all try to avoid?
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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #128 on: 29/07/2005 21:36:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by gary_lankford

Religion is just a way of life adherred to consistently.



So's being a serial killer.

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
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Offline gary_lankford

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #129 on: 29/07/2005 22:05:30 »
Exactly my point Chimera.

Religion, everyone has one, but few in their practice stand on truth, and even fewer act on it.

Surely, you see that the religion of serial killers is not to seek truth; in that, they have alot in common with say, inquisitors.
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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #130 on: 01/08/2005 06:22:06 »
Funny, although the larger picture is not pretty, quite a few Inquisitors were rather restrained people, and had to keep the eager public from acting it all out on their own - without a trial altogether. You'd also be surprised how many inquisition trials were simply about getting to the money and lands of the victims, or to get them out of the political picture, so not much religion.

My main point is that 'steadfastness' is not a virtue by itself. It's nothing more than a romantic notion of reliability I guess, hiding the fact that without a consistent approach to novelty in your life you are not really living, but trying to force the rest of the world to stick to your idealised version of it, even if it never existed as such.

We all know the real name of the golden heydays of Christian values: the Middle Ages. If you don't agree with this, tell me who *ruled* Europe then with full worldly powers and on all levels of society:

Buddhists?
« Last Edit: 01/08/2005 06:26:14 by chimera »
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Offline Bilbisaur

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #131 on: 01/08/2005 14:38:49 »
quote:
You would think that "scientists" (truth seekers) would be the most open in seeking things that are beyond understanding, instead they are among the most dogmatic and close-minded. Then they deny that they are religious. Religion is just a way of life adherred to consistently. Something we should all try to avoid?


from what i'd read, Bishop Wilberforce verbally attacked Darwin and his friends during a debate without even considering how evolution worked. We know that you can't morph into supernatural flying turtles holding blankets in one day (unless you're a nutcase[:D]). So technically the Christian church started it first.

Oh and one thing which I observed is that only Christianity seems to be in the brutal fight with science. I haven't seen Hindus, Taoists, etc coming in o0

quote:
We all know the real name of the golden heydays of Christian values: the Middle Ages. If you don't agree with this, tell me who *ruled* Europe then with full worldly powers and on all levels of society:

Buddhists?


lol [:D] Reminds me, I once said somewhere that Buddhism was some kind of moral teachings rather than a religion (it doesn't really have a god, unless u count the Taoist version about him in the west o.0) My sis was like "Are you sure? It sounds very selfish to me" Was tempted to reply but she's... her. >=(

ah the thing that got me into evolution was because of my sis, she always preaches and when someone asks her further she just goes "because it's already wrong/right"

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Evolution has flaws but is still wrong
Any logic or justice in that?
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Evolution has flaws but is still wrong
Any logic or justice in that?

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #132 on: 01/08/2005 15:28:27 »
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbisaur


lol [:D] Reminds me, I once said somewhere that Buddhism was some kind of moral teachings rather than a religion (it doesn't really have a god, unless u count the Taoist version about him in the west o.0)


That's largely correct, I think. Buddhism's more a school of philosophy than anything else, which is why I can at least in part subscribe to its ideas. The difference in outlook on whether there is a sole divine being or that god is everywhere (pantheism) is normally found in almost any religion/theology. With hare krishna's you can tell if they're monotheists btw, since those have one bead of hair on the top of their heads - the pantheists are all-shaven.

Oh, in Christianity you USED to have pantheist 'factions' too.

Those, they burned separately.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2005 15:28:48 by chimera »
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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #133 on: 02/08/2005 08:50:56 »
Don't confuse Classical Pantheism with Naturalistic or Scientific Pantheism.. and definately never with Panentheism! [:D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheist

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Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #134 on: 02/08/2005 09:31:13 »
Panentheism and Pantheism are like Cantor's sets of infinities in that respect: 'All is the set that contains all other sets" - and immediately someone asks "Does the set include itself"?

I'm always inclined to joke: "Yes, but not on Sundays". [:)]

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
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Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #135 on: 10/08/2005 09:09:24 »
hmmmm......nah!
I dont believe i evolved from some God Damn Flea-Infested Ape!
But that's just my opinion.[:p]

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #136 on: 10/08/2005 18:42:48 »
No one thinks we evolved from Apes, they are as "highly evolved" as us, they are just different! We evolved from common hominid/primate ancestors which a long time ago split into the various types of primates. Neanderthals were around at the same time as humans.... they almost certainly had language and skills similar to our own; they just weren't cut out for such radical environmental change and were too specialised. I even read one paper that said there was another species of hominid on some remote island when organised human civilisation began! If that is true we should really think better of the animals around us.

The only difference between you and an Ape right now are: less hair, the ability to produce speech and standing up all the time. Apes have language skills it’s just they lack the anatomy to produce any spoken language. They produce less sophisticated tools than us because they haven’t been walking upright like us for as long. Plenty of hominids I can think of with fleas [;)] don’t be thinking you are so high an’ mighty, it’s a matter of 2% genetic difference between us and chimpanzees/bonobos. Plus Bonobos have complex social interactions, and are the only other animal known to use sex for pleasure/social bonding like humans. We aren’t so different regardless if you believe in evolution or not. It’s about time people realised they are not separate from the rest of nature!

Looking wider a field Dolphins are even more interesting they clearly have complex language skills; they can even communicate in 3D through sonar. The fact that they can learn a completely different way of communicating when dealing with human scientists is staggering, do you know a single word/concept in dolphin language? They live in large organised social groupings and interact with other species in symbiotic relationships very similar to how humans use other animals!

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 10/08/2005 18:55:40 by Ultima »
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Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #137 on: 10/08/2005 18:49:01 »
Do they Really?
lol![:D]

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Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #138 on: 10/08/2005 18:51:16 »
I was just thinking about bonobos,dirty bunch they are[:)]

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #139 on: 10/08/2005 19:03:37 »
Oh great way to go Amerikakakka http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4136690.stm
Without evolution how do you explain new things being created??? We can see the process and it's through genetics not the hand of God???

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« Last Edit: 10/08/2005 20:35:45 by Ultima »
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Offline Bass

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #140 on: 12/08/2005 05:36:13 »
The Shrub has just trashed several generations of scientific research with one ill-informed remark.

Prediction is difficult, especially the future.  -Niels Bohr
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Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #141 on: 12/08/2005 10:35:38 »
Hey who you callin' a Shrub you......Swine!

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Offline rutcar

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #142 on: 14/08/2005 21:47:55 »
you cant take religious texts literally as this was not how they were intended to be taken. it is true that these stories are morally rich and and are valuable in that sense, somewhat like the parables. it would be foolish however to believe stories such as adam and eve word for word. as for the whole big bang thing being triggered by god and it not being random, however i put it to you: it had to happen randomly and was destined to, just like an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite amount of time will type the works of sheadsperre

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science is religion

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Offline ScientificAngel

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #143 on: 23/08/2005 09:58:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by pencilhead

HOW?  I know we've heard this over and over again.  Never a dry subject,unless your dry and never change your beliefs.  You change a person daily learn new things hopefully they change and effect you someway or another.  What are you thoughts about EVOLUTION?
[8)][8)][8D][8D][:D][:D][:)][:)][:p][:p][:o)][:I][:I][:I]



Statistically evolution is almost impossible.
Evey gene mutation has to be great but I don't think it can be enough......
If we have to believe that we all discend from a single batterium
then I don't believe in evolution statistically.......
I believe in a great God creation, maybe statistically it would be more correct.
We only need to believe in Jesus Resurrection........
Is it more probable?

I know He is God but scientifically it's very difficoult to show... it........


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earth scientifically from Jupiter...
God will give 12 new
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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #144 on: 23/08/2005 20:19:12 »
The whole point is that Evolution isn’t statistical! Plus a lot of the ordered complexities of life are emergent from the fundamental properties of the materials we are made of, such as: phospholipids forming a permeable bi-layer when exposed to water. This is an obvious example, but it is likely far more subtle effects are in place that we are not fully aware of.
Mutation is almost always destructive, random and relatively infrequent. Evolution works on the cross-over of genes between Mother/Father to Daughter/Son. If you had a perfect birth with no genes mutating the child would still be a different organism with traits from both parents and new ones that emerge from the fusion of the parents.

How does the resurrection of Jesus Christ explain biodiversity and the rapid specialisation of organisms to new environments? What's more probable, someone came back from the dead (the son of God no less), or with time genetic traits benefit certain organisms in certain environs!

Plus it's more incredible than descending from single celled life. We ultimately descend from self replicating concentrations of biological chemicals. These eventually formed more complex structures when they bumped in to each other. Ultimately forming what you see today. Life is like the rest of the universe but backwards: with time things go from unordered chaos to ordered perfection. On reflection that statement is not entirely true. After the big bang things were messy for a while, but now we have galactic clusters; galaxies bump in to each other and form new galaxies different than ones before... On every scale the same emergence of new from old is apparent!

Because a process is to complex to fully comprehend, doesn't mean that it's origins can't be explained simply.

To Quote Richard Dawkins:
quote:

From "The Blind Watchmaker":

We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully 'designed' to have come into existence by chance. How, then, did they come into existence The answer, Darwin's answer, is by gradual, step-by-step transformations from simple beginnings, from primordial entities sufficiently simple to have come into existence by chance. Each success­ive change in the gradual evolutionary process was simple enough, rela­tive to its predecessor, to have arisen by chance. But the whole sequence of cumulative steps constitutes anything but a chance process, when you consider the complexity of the final end-product relative to the original starting point. The cumulative process is directed by nonrandom survival.



Evolution doesn't go against the concept of God; it just goes against the literal interpretation of creation from the Bible. If more highly religious people took the time to make an informed decision about evolution, there wouldn't be any argument!  

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 23/08/2005 20:36:45 by Ultima »
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Offline ScientificAngel

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #145 on: 23/08/2005 22:29:32 »
Can a bacterium's dna become a man's dna with the cross-over?
After all the number of genes cannot change with the cross-over.......





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Offline daveshorts

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #146 on: 24/08/2005 00:19:59 »
Well a bacterium reproduces asexually most of the time so no.

Howver this is where mutations come in - a gene is just identified by a certain code of DNA at the start and end so you just need a mistake in the copying of some junk DNA (that doesn't code for a gene) to this code to create a new gene (they also quite often get copied twice by mistake).

99% of the time these mutations do nothing important and just increase the variety in the gene pool, most of the rest of the time it affects the animal negatively, but just occasionally it helps - these are the animals that survive and go onto breed and make up the next generation.

repeat for a few billion years and you will see some pretty big changes.

quote:
I dont believe i evolved from some God Damn Flea-Infested Ape!

You may not, however if your alternative theroy is that you were created by some sort of deity, it must have been a pretty lazy one as you are 97-99% similar genetically. This would indicate that the deity designed each animal by minor changes to the last. This wouldn't exactly indicate how an omniscient deity would design things, (as they could go directly for more optimised designs) unless they were trying to pretend it was by evolution, or aren't actually omniscient...

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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #147 on: 24/08/2005 01:04:13 »
There are some interesting science that most people don't know about that can cause geneic mutation. Obviously radiation can cause damage and changes to DNA. And there have been some nearby supernova's in human history that could have caused a lot of damage.

But a more common form of genetic damage was pointed out by Dr. Linus Pauling back in the 1960's, and earned him a Nobel Peace prize. Radiation high in the atmosphere generates C14 (Carbon 14) a radioactive form of Carbon. Pauling pointed out that nuclear air blasts were also generating large amounts of C14.

The problem with C14 is that Carbon is one of the constituants of DNA. Should a C14 atom decay radioactivly, it changes into Nitrogen. Changing from 4 bonding electrons to 3 bonding electrons, causes the DNA molecule to break. The broken pieces can result in a non-functioning DNA strand, in some mutation, or in a cancerious cell. Most of the time (since it occures about 3 times per second in each of us) the damage is benin. A spontanious cancer is the second most probable, and a sucessful genetic mutation is the rarist.

P.S. Linus convinced the world powers to stop nucelar air tests due to the increased risk of cancer, and that is why he won the peace prize.

David
David

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #148 on: 24/08/2005 23:14:10 »
quote:
Can a bacterium's dna become a man's dna with the cross-over?
After all the number of genes cannot change with the cross-over.......


Eukaryotic and Prokaryotic cells are separate evolutions of a similar thing. They are not distinguished by just the genetics but by the things “bumping” into each other as I mentioned before. Eukaryotic cells are likely the result of the accidental and beneficial merging of many early prokaryotic cells over time. Yes given enough time it is possible that a bacterium could evolve into something as complicated as a human. But it would take the accidental amalgamation of more than one bacterium to from more complex structures internally to the cell. As I also mentioned before you get membranes forming as an innate property of the lipids present, if you imagine that membranes plus biological chemical contents is essentially the first and most basic form of life. You start here. Then when the contents of the membrane becomes more than it’s “tensile strength” can withstand it breaks apart and forms two or more copies of it’s self. This is life at its most basic. Then by accident more complicated molecules get added into one of the membranes chemical mixture, this then goes on and is shared between the next “generation”. As time goes by some membranes will be full of very complicated organic compounds that will begin to interact and form other structures. By chance two membranes might collide when splitting and share there contents. This sharing allows a population to be similar enough to interact with each other externally to the “cell” you then start to see intercellular things going on and ultimately multi celled life. It is only a matter of time for this to happen. Granted the very early stages are random and subject to probability, but once you reach a certain level of complexity this no longer holds true. Once you have a genetic structure that “stores” information for reconstructing complex chemicals you have what we would call life and not just a bunch of greasy bubbles floating around.
This is true for computer programs. Everything you see on your computer screen right now is very simple maths happening very fast. Ultimately from the simple stored information that a programmer has inputted the desired behaviour becomes apparent; once the instructions are executed over many cycles. You get artificially intelligent things happening once the code can write and change itself, very much how genes work in life.

This isn’t strictly Darwinian evolution this is more of a complexity theory take on evolution. Stuart Kauffman has written some nice stuff about the subject, which is pretty much what im regurgitating poorly, now. Self-organisation like this is a very useful tool in computing as well, and only now is beginning to be used. I’m thinking of doing something in this field for my dissertation. Investigating the stability of retroviral genes in genomes of other organisms; using A.I. techniques to form an emergently complex computer model.



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Offline ScientificAngel

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #149 on: 25/08/2005 14:05:09 »
I don't know this theory.
But what is your opinion, is your theory more probable
than others?
What's its probability?
I know from a lot of scientists that evolution can(could, my opinion) be infinite casual gene mutations.
When I have studied this evolution theory then I
have considered the Creation at once.








God can give to us 4 new
earth scientifically from Jupiter...
God will give 12 new
earth from Jupiter
with 4 little black holes and 4 little suns...!