Is geoengineering destroying life?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #50 on: 10/04/2016 20:47:57 »
Why do you think this is nonsense
The true conspiracy theory is the non-sense idea that "contrails, or condensation trails, are "streaks of condensed water vapor created in the air by an airplane or rocket at high altitudes".
please include actual physics in your answer.

I had a look at the evidence it was poor.
I have seen better from students.
Nobody disputes the toxicity of ash.
But there is no evidence of the "goengineeering" you speak of, and if there were it would raise the question you keep failing to answer.
Why are "they" poisoning themselves?
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #51 on: 11/04/2016 00:55:15 »
MDPI is a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal ...

A publication who sends the authors of published papers an invoice [$300-$1500] ...
[attachment=21398]
http://www.mdpi.com/editorial_process

cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_press
« Last Edit: 11/04/2016 01:09:38 by RD »

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #52 on: 11/04/2016 11:46:34 »
Why do you think this is nonsense
The true conspiracy theory is the nonsense idea that "contrails, or condensation trails, are "streaks of condensed water vapor created in the air by an airplane or rocket at high altitudes".

Water vapor do not condense to create artificial clouds.

Quote from: Bored chemist
I had a look at the evidence it was poor.
I have seen better from students.
Nobody disputes the toxicity of ash.
But there is no evidence of the "goengineeering" you speak of, and if there were it would raise the question you keep failing to answer.
Why are "they" poisoning themselves?

You fail to understand that "we" are responsible for our governments actions. How could you even understand more complex phenomenons like geoengineering? Your arrogance is not an appropriate method to discuss and learn on a science forum.
The bliss of ignorance is deeper in the region of tyranny.

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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #53 on: 11/04/2016 20:21:56 »
Water vapor do not condense to create artificial clouds.

Pressure changes can cause invisible transparent water-vapour in the air to condense into visible white clouds , which can be trails , see ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices#Aerodynamic_condensation_and_freezing

« Last Edit: 11/04/2016 20:25:24 by RD »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #54 on: 11/04/2016 20:30:58 »

Water vapor do not condense to create artificial clouds.

You fail to understand that "we" are responsible for our governments actions. How could you even understand more complex phenomenons like geoengineering?
Your arrogance is not an appropriate method to discuss and learn on a science forum.

Artificial clouds have been produced since at least as far back as the cloud chamber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_chamber
they are now used for studying fast particles, but the original point was to create artificial clouds for weather studies.
So, once again, it would be good if you did the research before postign stuff that was nonsense.

"You fail to understand that "we" are responsible for our governments actions. "
No I am not.
And the point is moot.
Why would "they" or "we" be deliberately poisoning ourselves?

I'm fairly arrogant;but I'm not arrogant enough to dismiss the whole of science- which is what you are doing her.
If you feel that arrogance is a problem you need to stop displaying even more of it than I do.
"How could you even understand more complex phenomenons like geoengineering? " I do understand it and i therefore understand why your claims are nonsense.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #55 on: 11/04/2016 21:39:36 »
Pressure changes can cause invisible transparent water-vapour in the air to condense into visible white clouds , which can be trails ,

The use of a (ultrasonic?) nozzle to spray the aerosols from planes and generate artificial clouds has been documented. See: http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/GRLreview2.pdf 

Quote
Options for dispersing gases from planes include the addition of sulfur to the fuel, which would release the aerosol through the exhaust system of the plane, or the attachment of a nozzle to  release  the  sulfur  from  its  own  tank  within  the  plane,  which  would  be  the  better  option.   
...
Unlike the small jet fighter planes, the KC-135 and KC-10 are used to refuel planes mid-flight and already have a nozzle installed.

You seem to be confusing a "contrail" with a "chemtrail"...
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #56 on: 11/04/2016 21:53:46 »
Pressure changes can cause invisible transparent water-vapour in the air to condense into visible white clouds , which can be trails ,

The use of a (ultrasonic?) nozzle to spray the aerosols from planes and generate artificial clouds has been documented. See: http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/pdf/GRLreview2.pdf 

Quote
Options for dispersing gases from planes include the addition of sulfur to the fuel, which would release the aerosol through the exhaust system of the plane, or the attachment of a nozzle to  release  the  sulfur  from  its  own  tank  within  the  plane,  which  would  be  the  better  option.   
...
Unlike the small jet fighter planes, the KC-135 and KC-10 are used to refuel planes mid-flight and already have a nozzle installed.

You seem to be confusing a "contrail" with a "chemtrail"...
No. Broadly speaking the suggestion of using ultrasonic nozzles has been documented.
Just because someone looked at the possibility of doing something is no reason to believe that it is actually in use.
There's one notable point from that report "Using existing U.S. military fighter and tanker planes, the
annual costs of injecting aerosol precursors into the lower stratosphere would be several billion
dollars" So it would cost a lot of money.
Why bother?
Well, this is just about plausible " to cool the planet and reduce global warming. "
But they still wouldn't use dimethyl sulphate would they?

"You seem to be confusing a "contrail" with a "chemtrail"... "
There's a simple difference.
Contrails actually exist, but chemtrails don't
 (except in things like the smoke trails used in air shows and a very small number of cloud seeding events)
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #57 on: 11/04/2016 22:52:22 »
Contrails actually exist, but chemtrails don't



Ignorance is bliss... How could one pretend geoengineering (chemtrails) is not a on-going clandestine activity to mitigate global warming? We need to educate the masses about the potentially toxic effects of geoengineering on public health, unless we consent to be poisoned on a daily basis.

Quote
Climate engineering, also referred to as geoengineering or climate intervention,[1] is the deliberate and large-scale intervention in the Earth’s climatic system with the aim of limiting adverse climate change

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_engineering
« Last Edit: 13/04/2016 16:31:45 by tkadm30 »
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #58 on: 12/04/2016 03:17:09 »
[attachment=21421]


If chemical smoke was being released from the airliner, why is there a gap between the engines and the white trails ? , ( the kind of gap which would occur if they were due to condensation ).

BTW the white smoke from a single "Red Arrow" uses 45 litres of diesel per minute.
Q. theoretically, how much alleged chemical must the airliner be carrying to produce 4 chemtrails for say six hours. A ~60,000Kg, which is more than the weight of all the passengers.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2016 03:54:32 by RD »

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #59 on: 12/04/2016 11:35:44 »
If chemical smoke was being released from the airliner, why is there a gap between the engines and the white trails ? , ( the kind of gap which would occur if they were due to condensation ).

The "gap" effect could be the result of silver iodide vapor emitted from the heat of burning charcoal. Coal fly ash is a natural source of charcoal...

Quote
To produce silver iodide smoke, charcoal is burned in a stream of air. The heat of burning charcoal vaporizes the silver iodide at the surface. The resultant silver iodide vapor is rapidly condensed and diluted by the moving air stream to form an invisible smoke.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=QB4SBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=silver+iodide+fly+ash&source=bl&ots=oYKza0-8bS&sig=q_s0aq58A6Ij5W-R2SoH-gzNnCU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI59Lm7IjMAhVix4MKHQ1pDYYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=silver%20iodide%20fly%20ash&f=false

More evidences here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0095852250900043

N.B: the use of silver iodide smoke to create artificial clouds is not new. See Project Stormfury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Stormfury
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Offline RD

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« Last Edit: 12/04/2016 16:30:34 by RD »

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #61 on: 12/04/2016 20:41:33 »
Cloud seeding with silver iodide is not pseudoscience. The only apparent missing link is the fact that coal fly ash may be used to vaporize the silver iodide.

Quote
Cloud seeding is no longer considered a fringe science, and is considered a mainstream tool to improve rain precipitation and snow. New technology and research has produced reliable results that make cloud seeding a dependable and affordable water-supply practice for many regions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding#Effectiveness
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #62 on: 12/04/2016 21:19:42 »
If chemical smoke was being released from the airliner, why is there a gap between the engines and the white trails ? , ( the kind of gap which would occur if they were due to condensation ).

The "gap" effect could be the result of silver iodide vapor emitted from the heat of burning charcoal. Coal fly ash is a natural source of charcoal...

Quote
To produce silver iodide smoke, charcoal is burned in a stream of air. The heat of burning charcoal vaporizes the silver iodide at the surface. The resultant silver iodide vapor is rapidly condensed and diluted by the moving air stream to form an invisible smoke.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=QB4SBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=silver+iodide+fly+ash&source=bl&ots=oYKza0-8bS&sig=q_s0aq58A6Ij5W-R2SoH-gzNnCU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI59Lm7IjMAhVix4MKHQ1pDYYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=silver%20iodide%20fly%20ash&f=false

More evidences here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0095852250900043

N.B: the use of silver iodide smoke to create artificial clouds is not new. See Project Stormfury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Stormfury
There's some really spectacular wrongness there.
Planes do not run on carcoal
Cola fly ash has little or no carbon (that was burned off to leave ash- hence the name) and so it certainly isn't much like charcoal.
Also CFA isn't natural.
Silver iodide doesn't boil below bright red to white hot- so the back end of the engines would melt if you tried to vapourise it.
There's every chance that it would decompose on vaporisation too- especially in the presence of water vapour. (That's why they used charcoal- not much water- unlike the exhaust from a jet engine.)
It's also expensive and as corrosives as anything if its damp.

"the use of silver iodide smoke to create artificial clouds is not new."
I suspect that you are getting muddled- AgI is used (at least experimentally) for seeding clouds to form rain- but it's not much good at making clouds in the first place.

And you seem to be saying that contrials are made of invisible smoke- I have news for you- they are visible.

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #63 on: 13/04/2016 11:34:47 »
Cola fly ash has little or no carbon (that was burned off to leave ash- hence the name) and so it certainly isn't much like charcoal.
Incorrect. Fly ash contains charcoal.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash#Chemical_composition_and_classification

Quote from: Bored chemist
And you seem to be saying that contrials are made of invisible smoke- I have news for you- they are visible.

Wrong. Chemtrails rapidly dissipate to form artificial clouds. Although they might be confused with "contrails", due to disinformation, contrails don't condense and are emitted from the wingtips of a plane. Chemtrails are not released from commercial planes. Your confusion and ignorance of geoengineering are evidences that the state-sponsored brainwashing is alive and well!  [:-X]

« Last Edit: 13/04/2016 14:47:26 by tkadm30 »
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Offline RD

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #64 on: 13/04/2016 15:40:02 »
Chemtrails are not released from commercial planes ...
And yet you posted a picture of a [Quatar] airliner [Reply#57] with the word "chemtrails" under it.
The only chemical smoke which is harming your [mental] health is the type you choose to inhale.

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #65 on: 13/04/2016 16:33:39 »
I changed that picture. I hope you're happy now...
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #66 on: 13/04/2016 19:47:21 »
Cola fly ash has little or no carbon (that was burned off to leave ash- hence the name) and so it certainly isn't much like charcoal.
Incorrect. Fly ash contains charcoal.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash#Chemical_composition_and_classification

Quote from: Bored chemist
And you seem to be saying that contrials are made of invisible smoke- I have news for you- they are visible.

Wrong. Chemtrails rapidly dissipate to form artificial clouds. Although they might be confused with "contrails", due to disinformation, contrails don't condense and are emitted from the wingtips of a plane. Chemtrails are not released from commercial planes. Your confusion and ignorance of geoengineering are evidences that the state-sponsored brainwashing is alive and well!  [:-X]
Did you read the wiki page you cited? Here's what it says
"Ash used as a cement replacement must meet strict construction standards, but no standard environmental regulations have been established in the United States. 75% of the ash must have a fineness of 45 µm or less, and have a carbon content, measured by the loss on ignition (LOI), of less than 4%."
And what I said was "Coal fly ash has little or no carbon".
Well, compared to charcoal, which is largely carbon, 4 % or less is little or none.

You keep saying things like this
"Wrong. Chemtrails rapidly dissipate to form artificial clouds."
and you keep not being able to provide any evidence to back it up.
Do you understand  why that is a problem?
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #67 on: 13/04/2016 20:31:18 »
You keep saying things like this
"Wrong. Chemtrails rapidly dissipate to form artificial clouds."
and you keep not being able to provide any evidence to back it up.
Do you understand  why that is a problem?

On what planet do you live? Aren't you aware that the climate is being deliberately modified with chemtrails?
Furthermore, there's sufficient scientific literature to assert that geoengineering is real. This is a fact, not a conspiracy theory. The only hypothesis which still needs to be validated is that this activity could be toxic (cancerogenic) to humans. The research of Dr. Marvin Herndon is controversial because it shed some light on this problem. However, denying the complete existence of chemtrails is pure ignorance. Please try to show some respect to the directly observable effects of geoengineering and consider the evidences that you may be a victim of disinformation. 
« Last Edit: 14/04/2016 18:41:27 by tkadm30 »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #68 on: 13/04/2016 22:11:35 »
You keep saying things like this
"Wrong. Chemtrails rapidly dissipate to form artificial clouds."
and you keep not being able to provide any evidence to back it up.
Do you understand  why that is a problem?

On what planet do you live? Aren't you aware that the climate is being deliberately modified with chemtrails?
Furthermore, there's sufficient scientific litterature to assert that geoengineering is real. This is a fact, not a conspiracy theory. The only hypothesis which still needs to be validated is that this activity could be toxic to humans. The research of Dr. Marvin Herndon is controversial because it shed some light on this problem. However, denying the complete existence of chemtrails is pure ignorance. Please try to show some respect to the directly observable effects of geoengineering and consider the evidences that you may be a victim of disinformation. 

Ok, lets sort something out here. There is some small amount of usage of things like silver iodide to seed clouds and that's geoengineering in a sense.
There's evidence for that- it woks (poorly) it's expensive.
There is also some anecdotal evidence that the former Soviet union used cement as a means to disperse clouds so that they didn't rain on their parades.
It's also not very effective, but, at least, it's a lot cheaper than AgI.

You seem to not understand that such intervention is weather modification, rather than what you claim- which is climate modification.

But you seem to be wittering on about fly ash (which you are trying to pretend is like charcoal) and sulphate aerosols.
Well, if "the government" decided that it wanted sulphate aerosols it could hypothetically produce them by screwing up jet engines with corrosive chemicals.
Or it could simply relax the requirements for flue gas desulphurisation.
Do you have some plausible reason why they are doing it the expensive, impractical way?
Do you have any plausible reason why they are doing it at all?

What you seem not to understand is that the scientific literature tells you what is possible.
It does not tell you what is actually being done.

And, for the record, dimethyl sulphate is still just not stable in water. It never was, it never will be.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #69 on: 13/04/2016 23:42:11 »
Ok, lets sort something out here. There is some small amount of usage of things like silver iodide to seed clouds and that's geoengineering in a sense.
There's evidence for that- it woks (poorly) it's expensive.
There is also some anecdotal evidence that the former Soviet union used cement as a means to disperse clouds so that they didn't rain on their parades.
It's also not very effective, but, at least, it's a lot cheaper than AgI.

Good. I think you made progresses in your understanding of geoengineering.  [;)]

Quote from: Bored chemist
You seem to not understand that such intervention is weather modification, rather than what you claim- which is climate modification.

That is basically the same thing: geoengineering is the deliberate modification of the weather on a global scale. Wikipedia now refer to it as "climate engineering"...


Quote from: Bored chemist
But you seem to be wittering on about fly ash (which you are trying to pretend is like charcoal) and sulphate aerosols.
Well, if "the government" decided that it wanted sulphate aerosols it could hypothetically produce them by screwing up jet engines with corrosive chemicals.
Or it could simply relax the requirements for flue gas desulphurisation.
Do you have some plausible reason why they are doing it the expensive, impractical way?
Do you have any plausible reason why they are doing it at all?
Climate change is a political problem. The real reason why climate change is occuring is debatable. However, coal fly ash reuse could be profitable. I think this is yet another reason they must use this substance for geoengineering purpose: it's a cheap and practical way to spray sulfuric acid in the troposhere.   

Quote from: Bored chemist
What you seem not to understand is that the scientific literature tells you what is possible.
It does not tell you what is actually being done.
Indeed. The research from Dr. Marvin Herndon tells us why coal fly ash is the possible particulate being sprayed:
Quote
Although seemingly unacknowledged in publicly accessible reports and in scientific literature as potential material for geoengineering, coal fly ash is one major global waste product stream with the appropriate grain-size distribution for aerosolized tropospheric spraying that is readily available at extremely low cost and with existent processing and transport infrastructure.
http://nuclearplanet.com/ijerph-error_corrected.pdf

Quote from: Bored chemist
And, for the record, dimethyl sulphate is still just not stable in water. It never was, it never will be.
Wrong. dimethyl sulfate is water soluble. Also, monomethyl sulfate decomposes itself in water to sulfuric acid. This is probably the method used to spray sulfuric acid into the troposhere by using low-cost coal fly ash particulates to react with water.

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/dimethyl%20sulfate#section=Stability-and-Reactivity

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/6412#section=Reactivities-and-Incompatibilities&fullscreen=true
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #70 on: 14/04/2016 21:14:05 »

That is basically the same thing: geoengineering is the deliberate modification of the weather on a global scale. Wikipedia now refer to it as "climate engineering"...




Quote from: Bored chemist
And, for the record, dimethyl sulphate is still just not stable in water. It never was, it never will be.
Wrong. dimethyl sulfate is water soluble.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/dimethyl%20sulfate#section=Stability-and-Reactivity

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/6412#section=Reactivities-and-Incompatibilities&fullscreen=true

Weather is not the same as climate.
Stop pretending otherwise.
And you are now arguing with yourself since the web page you site says very clearly
"Reactivity Alerts

Water-Reactive"
about dimethyl sulphate.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #71 on: 14/04/2016 21:59:12 »
And you are now arguing with yourself since the web page you site says very clearly
"Reactivity Alerts

Water-Reactive"
about dimethyl sulphate.

The reaction is production of sulfuric acid. Dimethyl sulfate is water soluble. Please don't ignore this fact.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/dimethyl%20sulfate#section=Reactivities-and-Incompatibilities
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #72 on: 15/04/2016 21:03:43 »
Weather is not the same as climate.
Stop pretending otherwise.

I assume that climate modification (geoengineering) imply modifiying the weather on a global basis.

And for the record, dimethyl sulfate is water soluble.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #73 on: 16/04/2016 00:22:11 »
Weather is not the same as climate.
Stop pretending otherwise.


And for the record, dimethyl sulfate is water soluble.
Nobody cares
Nobody said it wasn't
The only relevant bit is that dimethyl sulphate is not stable in the presence of water and falls apart with a half life of a couple of hours.

Why are you wittering on about whether or not it is soluble?
And you are now arguing with yourself since the web page you site says very clearly
"Reactivity Alerts

Water-Reactive"
about dimethyl sulphate.

The reaction is production of sulfuric acid. Dimethyl sulfate is water soluble. Please don't ignore this fact.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/dimethyl%20sulfate#section=Reactivities-and-Incompatibilities
nobody is ignoring either fact.
It's just that you were talking bollocks about the purported importance of it being a carcinogen.
 But it falls apart in the presence of water- so it's simply not going to last long enough to cause cancer is it?
That's teh relevant fact, and you are the one ignoring it.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #74 on: 16/04/2016 10:46:10 »
The only relevant bit is that dimethyl sulphate is not stable in the presence of water and falls apart with a half life of a couple of hours.

Dimethyl sulfate convert itself to monomethyl sulfate in the presence of ammonia, a substance naturally occuring in the troposphere.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282201015_Dimethyl_sulfate_in_particulate_matter_from_coal-_and_oil-fired_power_plants

Quote from: Bored chemist
Why are you wittering on about whether or not it is soluble?

The water solubility of dimethyl sulfate in tropospheric aerosol particulates may decrease water pH and contaminate rainwater with monomethyl sulfate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain

It's just that you were talking bollocks about the purported importance of it being a carcinogen.
 But it falls apart in the presence of water- so it's simply not going to last long enough to cause cancer is it?
That's teh relevant fact, and you are the one ignoring it.

No. dms and monomethyl sulfate are both carcinogenic compounds (chemical weapons).

If the "coal fly ash" hypothesis is true, this could mean geoengineering is a large-scale attempt to induce genocide using an experimental method and military-grade chemical agents.
« Last Edit: 16/04/2016 12:03:08 by tkadm30 »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #75 on: 16/04/2016 14:39:16 »
Monomethyl- and dimethyl- sulphates are not stable in water.
No matter how often you mention them, they don't hang round.

You seem not to understand that coal ash is made at very high temperatures in the presence of air.
If there were any dimethyl sulphate in it, then it would boil and/ or burn off  before it left the furnace.
So, no alkyl sulphates are present in coal ash.
If there were any present, they would be destroyed by water.

So there is no plausible "coal ash hypothesis".

And even if there were, you would still need to explain why he politicians are poisoning everyone- including themselves.
« Last Edit: 16/04/2016 14:46:51 by Bored chemist »
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #76 on: 16/04/2016 16:56:09 »
Monomethyl- and dimethyl- sulphates are not stable in water.
No matter how often you mention them, they don't hang round.
Wrong. dms and monomethyl-sulfate react in presence of water to produce sulfuric acid.

Quote from: Bored chemist
You seem not to understand that coal ash is made at very high temperatures in the presence of air.
If there were any dimethyl sulphate in it, then it would boil and/ or burn off  before it left the furnace.
So, no alkyl sulphates are present in coal ash.
If there were any present, they would be destroyed by water.
Coal fly ash reuse for clandestine geoengineering imply the injection of coal fly ash nanoparticles using a nozzle
in the troposphere.

Quote from: Bored chemist
So there is no plausible "coal ash hypothesis".

Wrong. You're denying again important scientific research on the potential toxicity of geoengineering. This denialism is a concern if you think public health is an issue.
 
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #77 on: 17/04/2016 11:00:18 »
Monomethyl- and dimethyl- sulphates are not stable in water.
No matter how often you mention them, they don't hang round.
Wrong. dms and monomethyl-sulfate react in presence of water to produce sulfuric acid.

Quote from: Bored chemist
You seem not to understand that coal ash is made at very high temperatures in the presence of air.
If there were any dimethyl sulphate in it, then it would boil and/ or burn off  before it left the furnace.
So, no alkyl sulphates are present in coal ash.
If there were any present, they would be destroyed by water.
Coal fly ash reuse for clandestine geoengineering imply the injection of coal fly ash nanoparticles using a nozzle
in the troposphere.

Quote from: Bored chemist
So there is no plausible "coal ash hypothesis".

Wrong. You're denying again important scientific research on the potential toxicity of geoengineering. This denialism is a concern if you think public health is an issue.
 
"Wrong. dms and monomethyl-sulfate react in presence of water to produce sulfuric acid. "
I have been saying that all along.
You are the one who was saying something else.
So I'm right and you have finally caught up with me.

"Coal fly ash reuse for clandestine geoengineering imply the injection of coal fly ash nanoparticles using a nozzle
in the troposphere. "
If there were any evidence of them doing this- and there is none- it would still not contain any dimethyl or monomethly sulphate.

"Wrong. You're denying again important scientific research on the potential toxicity of geoengineering. This denialism is a concern if you think public health is an issue."
Only in the same way that it is "denialism" to point out that there is no need to worry about poop from flying unicorns landing on you.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #78 on: 17/04/2016 13:00:42 »
"Wrong. dms and monomethyl-sulfate react in presence of water to produce sulfuric acid. "
I have been saying that all along.
You are the one who was saying something else.
So I'm right and you have finally caught up with me.

The release of sulfuric acid in the troposhere contributes to acid rain precipitation.

Quote from: Bored chemist
"Coal fly ash reuse for clandestine geoengineering imply the injection of coal fly ash nanoparticles using a nozzle
in the troposphere. "
If there were any evidence of them doing this- and there is none- it would still not contain any dimethyl or monomethly sulphate.

The evidences are documented on Wikipedia. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_sulfate_aerosols_%28geoengineering%29

Again, the most likely sulfate aerosol precursor is coal fly ash. Commercial planes don't emit SO2 particles from their engines.

Quote from: Bored chemist
"Wrong. You're denying again important scientific research on the potential toxicity of geoengineering. This denialism is a concern if you think public health is an issue."
Only in the same way that it is "denialism" to point out that there is no need to worry about poop from flying unicorns landing on you.

Geoengineering is a failure from our governments to look at the real causes of climate change. There's no reason humans should share responsability by getting poisoned on a daily basis for climate change. The denial of geoengineering effects on public health is promoting ignorance, deception and disinformation.

So I guess you prefer believing in pseudo-scientific voodoo and flying unicorns rather than understanding peer-reviewed evidences of the toxicity of geoengineering? 
« Last Edit: 17/04/2016 13:16:34 by tkadm30 »
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #79 on: 17/04/2016 13:58:24 »
Is there any chance of you settling down an working out what you are talking about?
Have you forgotten that your original point was that dimethyl sulphate is carcinogenic?
It is, but since there's none of it present, that doesn't matter.

It's true that sulphates in air promote aerosol formation- but there's no reason to leap from that to the idea that anyone is actually deliberately doing geoengineering with them on anything but an experimental scale.

Once again, you keep leaping from
"something is not technically impossible"  to
"someone is doing it"
Even though there's no evidence for that.

And, for what it's worth, even the article you cite says that using high sulphur (cheap) fuel in jets would be the easy way to do it.
Who would pay for energy needed to get powdered rock into the air when you can do the same thing- better- for free?
You are not thinking this through- please try to do so.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #80 on: 17/04/2016 14:25:37 »
Is there any chance of you settling down an working out what you are talking about?
Have you forgotten that your original point was that dimethyl sulphate is carcinogenic?
It is, but since there's none of it present, that doesn't matter.

This is clearly not true. Lee's study demonstrated the presence of dimethyl sulfate in coal fly ash.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7350652

The fact that you must consider is that dimethyl sulfate was formerly recognized as a chemical weapon.

Quote from: Bored chemist
It's true that sulphates in air promote aerosol formation- but there's no reason to leap from that to the idea that anyone is actually deliberately doing geoengineering with them on anything but an experimental scale.
What are you smoking? Geoengineering is far beyond the experimental scale. It is considered a "clandestine" operation since its use has been officially prohibited by the UN biodiversity treaty, except by the U.S.

Quote from: Bored chemist
And, for what it's worth, even the article you cite says that using high sulphur (cheap) fuel in jets would be the easy way to do it.
Who would pay for energy needed to get powdered rock into the air when you can do the same thing- better- for free?

Geoengineering is a profitable way to reuse coal fly ash. I believe the corporations are quite interested in generating revenues from geoengineering.
« Last Edit: 17/04/2016 14:29:19 by tkadm30 »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #81 on: 17/04/2016 15:48:40 »
It's not a credible assertion- even if there's a paper about it- because the stuff would boil or burn off during the process of making ash.
If you can find a full version of the paper I will have a look to see where the mistake is.
Seriously- that ash is red hot when it's made and the sulphate esters boil a good couple of hundred degrees lower than that.
How is it possible?


Lots of things were considered as chemical weapons- including nitric acid- which is naturally present in rain water.
Nobody is saying that dimethyl sulphate is anything but a very nasty carcinogen.
But since there's no credible source of it in fly-ash and even if there were it would be destroyed by water, there's no need to worry about it.

" Geoengineering is far beyond the experimental scale. It is considered a "clandestine" operation since its use has been officially prohibited by the UN biodiversity treaty, except by the U.S."
Ah! that explains everything- it's a "secret"
OK
First question- how do you know about it if it's such a secret?
It's obviously not your field of expertise so it can't be because you are some government scientist breaking the wall of silence.

Secondly, why are they doing it at all?
As you say, the international consensus is that it's a bad idea.


"Geoengineering is a profitable way to reuse coal fly ash."
Who pays?
As I have said, it would be much easier to just relax the requirements for flue gas stripping.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #82 on: 17/04/2016 18:03:15 »
It's not a credible assertion- even if there's a paper about it- because the stuff would boil or burn off during the process of making ash.
If you can find a full version of the paper I will have a look to see where the mistake is.
Seriously- that ash is red hot when it's made and the sulphate esters boil a good couple of hundred degrees lower than that.
How is it possible?

Coal fly ash is a dried powder. The burning process of coal is different from the process of tropospheric injection which uses a nozzle to spray the aerosol as a vapor.

Quote from: Bored chemist
Lots of things were considered as chemical weapons- including nitric acid- which is naturally present in rain water.
Nobody is saying that dimethyl sulphate is anything but a very nasty carcinogen.
But since there's no credible source of it in fly-ash and even if there were it would be destroyed by water, there's no need to worry about it.

The toxicity of dimethyl sulfate exposure require further research. The presence of dimethyl sulfate in coal fly ash is a hard evidence that dms is a chemical agent in airborne particulate matter.

Quote from: Bored chemist
" Geoengineering is far beyond the experimental scale. It is considered a "clandestine" operation since its use has been officially prohibited by the UN biodiversity treaty, except by the U.S."
Ah! that explains everything- it's a "secret"
OK
First question- how do you know about it if it's such a secret?
It's obviously not your field of expertise so it can't be because you are some government scientist breaking the wall of silence.

Secondly, why are they doing it at all?
As you say, the international consensus is that it's a bad idea.


"Geoengineering is a profitable way to reuse coal fly ash."
Who pays?
As I have said, it would be much easier to just relax the requirements for flue gas stripping.
I don't think geoengineering (chemtrails) is much a secret now. The real purposes and functions of geoengineering remains however to be validated. Likewise, the toxic effects of geoengineering on human health is highly controversial and poorly understood.
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #83 on: 17/04/2016 18:58:22 »
"Coal fly ash is a dried powder. The burning process of coal is different from the process of tropospheric injection which uses a nozzle to spray the aerosol as a vapor."

Yes it's pretty dry.
That's because any water that might have been there will have boiled off in the furnace.
And yet you seem to say that dimethyl sulphate will magically avoid boiling off.
How is that possible?

"The burning process of coal is different from the process of tropospheric injection which uses a nozzle to spray the aerosol as a vapor."
Yes they are different
Burning coal actually happens.
They make the ash into cement.
There is no credible reason to believe that they spray it round.
And you need to learn the difference between a vapour and an aerosol.

"The toxicity of dimethyl sulfate exposure require further research. "
Why?
Everyone knows that it's very toxic- and a known carcinogen.

"The presence of dimethyl sulfate in coal fly ash is a hard evidence that dms is a chemical agent in airborne particulate matter."
Well, no.
At best it's debatable evidence because they strip the ash out and don't send much of it into the air.
Then there's the questionable presence of dimethyl sulphate in that ash,
Then there's the fact that dimethyl sulphate has probably never been used in anger as a chemical weapon.

"I don't think geoengineering (chemtrails) is much a secret now. "
Unicorns are not secret either,and for the same reason.


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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #84 on: 17/04/2016 19:49:06 »
"Coal fly ash is a dried powder. The burning process of coal is different from the process of tropospheric injection which uses a nozzle to spray the aerosol as a vapor."

Yes it's pretty dry.
That's because any water that might have been there will have boiled off in the furnace.
And yet you seem to say that dimethyl sulphate will magically avoid boiling off.
How is that possible?

There's no boiling which occurs with ultrasonic nozzles. The coal fly ash is released through the troposphere producing sulfate aerosols (SO2).

Quote from: Bored chemist
"The burning process of coal is different from the process of tropospheric injection which uses a nozzle to spray the aerosol as a vapor."
Yes they are different
Burning coal actually happens.
They make the ash into cement.
There is no credible reason to believe that they spray it round.
And you need to learn the difference between a vapour and an aerosol.
Chemtrails actually happens whether you like it or not. The evidences are directly observable and verifiable through scientific literature.

Quote from: Bored chemist
"The toxicity of dimethyl sulfate exposure require further research. "
Why?
Everyone knows that it's very toxic- and a known carcinogen.

"The presence of dimethyl sulfate in coal fly ash is a hard evidence that dms is a chemical agent in airborne particulate matter."
Well, no.
At best it's debatable evidence because they strip the ash out and don't send much of it into the air.
Then there's the questionable presence of dimethyl sulphate in that ash,
Then there's the fact that dimethyl sulphate has probably never been used in anger as a chemical weapon.

Wrong. DMS was first used by the Germans during WW1.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #85 on: 17/04/2016 20:11:46 »
"There's no boiling which occurs with ultrasonic nozzles. "
nobody said it did.
Were you deliberately missing the point?

"Chemtrails actually happens whether you like it or not. The evidences are directly observable and verifiable through scientific literature."
prove it

"DMS was first used by the Germans during WW1. "
that's interesting; can you provide a reference?
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #86 on: 17/04/2016 20:25:01 »
"There's no boiling which occurs with ultrasonic nozzles. "
nobody said it did.
Were you deliberately missing the point?

No. I think you're confusing actual contrail vapor and a aerosol emitted for geoengineering purpose.

Quote from: Bored chemist
"Chemtrails actually happens whether you like it or not. The evidences are directly observable and verifiable through scientific literature."
prove it
It's already done. The evidences that Dr. Marvin Herndon proposes are helping science to progress toward the truth.

Quote from: Bored chemist
"DMS was first used by the Germans during WW1. "
that's interesting; can you provide a reference?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfate#History
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #87 on: 17/04/2016 21:43:19 »
I saw the wiki page but it doesn't cite evidence.
It refers to two pages
https://www3.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/di-sulfa.html
and
http://www.kumed.com/medical-services/poison-control/~/media/Imported/kumed/documents/dimethyl-20sulfate.ashx
but neitehr of those mentions warfare
So, once again, do you have any actual evidence?

Also, this may seem like a silly question, but do you understand that fire is hot?
OK,let me know when you get lost.
If you have something like water or dimethyl sulphate- which is rather volatile, and you put it in a fire- which is hot- the material boils away.
In the case of dimethyl sulphate the vapour that forms is combustible.

So the ash that is left behind does not contain dimethyl sulphate
So coal fly ash does not contain dimethyl sulphate.

Are you still with me?  Did you understand all that?

If not please let me know which bits you can not grasp and I will see if I can explain them.




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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #88 on: 18/04/2016 00:39:41 »

Also, this may seem like a silly question, but do you understand that fire is hot?
OK,let me know when you get lost.
If you have something like water or dimethyl sulphate- which is rather volatile, and you put it in a fire- which is hot- the material boils away.
In the case of dimethyl sulphate the vapour that forms is combustible.

So the ash that is left behind does not contain dimethyl sulphate
So coal fly ash does not contain dimethyl sulphate.

This is a bogus analysis of how coal fly ash gets vaporised. Theres no heat or burning occuring with ultrasonication. It would be unsafe in my opinion to burn coal to obtain fly ash in flight. I believe the compound used for geoengineering is coal fly ash powder. The dimethyl sulfate is produced once the aerosol condense with water to form a gas. DMS is a by-product of coal fly ash reacting with water vapor.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #89 on: 18/04/2016 12:53:03 »
Here's a picture showing how coal fly ash get processed in coal power plants:



And here's a patent which describe a method for injecting Welsbach materials into the atmosphere:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F5003186

NB: Aluminium oxide (which is found in coal fly ash) is a Welsbach material which "absorbs strongly the long-wavelength infrared radiation released by the earth".



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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #90 on: 20/04/2016 20:25:25 »

Also, this may seem like a silly question, but do you understand that fire is hot?
OK,let me know when you get lost.
If you have something like water or dimethyl sulphate- which is rather volatile, and you put it in a fire- which is hot- the material boils away.
In the case of dimethyl sulphate the vapour that forms is combustible.

So the ash that is left behind does not contain dimethyl sulphate
So coal fly ash does not contain dimethyl sulphate.

This is a bogus analysis of how coal fly ash gets vaporised. Theres no heat or burning occuring with ultrasonication. It would be unsafe in my opinion to burn coal to obtain fly ash in flight. I believe the compound used for geoengineering is coal fly ash powder. The dimethyl sulfate is produced once the aerosol condense with water to form a gas. DMS is a by-product of coal fly ash reacting with water vapor.

Stop yacking on about it being vapourised. Practically nobody vaporises coal ash- the boiling point is stupidly high. Why would you bother?
Why would you even talk about it?


So, what I posted is not "a bogus analysis of how coal fly ash gets vaporised" because it's not an analysis of something that never happens.
Have you got that?

OK lets start again.
Do you understand that fire is hot?

So, the very hot ash will not contain DMS.
Have you got that?
Coal ash does not contain stuff that would boil and or burn off in a fire.

So you have to make up some explanation of how it gets there.
And the best you can come up with is  this "The dimethyl sulfate is produced once the aerosol condense with water to form a gas. DMS is a by-product of coal fly ash reacting with water vapor."
And that's obviously stupid.
Since water destroys DMS, it doesn't make it.

Why don't you stop, take the time to learn some science and then come back and apologise for cluttering up the forum?
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #91 on: 20/04/2016 21:57:42 »
Since water destroys DMS, it doesn't make it.

Not true. monomethyl sulfate (methyl sulfuric acid) is produced from the hydrolysis of DMS.

Quote
Dimethyl sulfate hydrolyzes slowly in cold water but rapidly in warm water and acidic solutions. The hydrolysis occurs stepwise, initially forming methyl sulfuric acid, then sulfuric acid and methanol.

https://www.chemours.com/Dimethyl_Sulfate/en_US/tech_info/chem_properties.html

I think you're acting plain silly in ignoring the fact that DMS is a sulfate aerosol precursor.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #92 on: 21/04/2016 20:48:28 »
Since water destroys DMS, it doesn't make it.

Not true. monomethyl sulfate (methyl sulfuric acid) is produced from the hydrolysis of DMS.

Quote
Dimethyl sulfate hydrolyzes slowly in cold water but rapidly in warm water and acidic solutions. The hydrolysis occurs stepwise, initially forming methyl sulfuric acid, then sulfuric acid and methanol.

https://www.chemours.com/Dimethyl_Sulfate/en_US/tech_info/chem_properties.html

I think you're acting plain silly in ignoring the fact that DMS is a sulfate aerosol precursor.
Are you deliberately trolling, or just not bright enough to understand that water destroys dimethyl sulphate and so it doesn't manufacture it?

The DMS which is really a sulphate aerosol precursor us dimethyl sulPHIDE.
It's produced in nature by things like decaying seaweed.

And it's oxidised and hydrolysed to form sulphuric acid (and things like CO2, methanol and formaldehyde).
There might even be some dimethyl sulphate made along the way, but it won't last because it will be destroyed by water.
If someone were adding dimethyl sulphate to teh iar it would 9quite quickly) react to form sulphuric acid which does promote aerosol formation.
Now, since I have never said otherwise, it's plainly inaccurate for you to say "I think you're acting plain silly in ignoring the fact that DMS is a sulfate aerosol precursor."

What I'm saying is that nobody is adding dimethyl sulphate to the atmosphere.
In particular, they are not adding it  by adding coal fly ash - because coal fly ash hasn't got dimethyl sulphate in it.
And among  the reasons foir this is that
if you wanted aerosols of sulphates- three's an easy way to get sulphate into the air. Just relax teh requirements for scrubbing flue gases.
On the other hand,iit is known to cause problems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain

If you want to add it further up you could add some sulphur compounds to jet fuel.
In fact it's easier than that, you could (again) relax teh requirements to remove the sulphur.
And you could add it as any of lots of sulphur containing chemicals- but dimethyl sulphate would be a stupid cjoice- when it gets wet (and everything does) it would produce sulphuric acid. You don't want that in fuel tanks on planes.
And it's horribly toxic an and expansive.

So, nothing you hav suggested makes any real sense





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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #93 on: 22/04/2016 10:59:18 »
Have you thought about what they could be possibly spraying if we assume that the coal fly ash hypothesis is wrong?

This is why science is critical to the understanding and progress of truth. Believing that chemtrails are composed of water vapor simply make no sense. This theory (propaganda) is scientifically invalid.

If you want me to accept your ideas then provide a solution for this problem. Otherwise, the coal fly ash hypothesis is a reasonable and legitimate postulate.
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #94 on: 16/10/2016 21:54:04 »
Why does geoengineering/chemtrails topics keeps getting moderated or
blocked on this forum?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #95 on: 17/10/2016 09:37:59 »
Why does geoengineering/chemtrails topics keeps getting moderated or
blocked on this forum?


Because it's a science website and you haven't produced any evidence that the topics ( as you describe them) actually exist.
For example, you have yet to produce any evidence that he trails behind aircraft are anything other than  water.

This has been explained to you at length: what can we do to help you understand?
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #96 on: 17/10/2016 10:28:00 »
Please tell me the purpose of spraying plain water vapor if you consider this an "evidence"?

Otherwise I'm not sure you understand the concept of stratospheric aerosol injection.

Thank you.

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #97 on: 17/10/2016 14:25:45 »
How do you expect them to burn a hydrocarbon like jet fuel without producing water vapour?
This has been pointed out to you before.

It's not that I don't understand stratospheric injection: the problem is that you have provided no evidence that it takes place on anything but a minuscule research scale.
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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #98 on: 17/10/2016 16:08:29 »
How do you expect them to burn a hydrocarbon like jet fuel without producing water vapour?
This has been pointed out to you before.

It's not that I don't understand stratospheric injection: the problem is that you have provided no evidence that it takes place on anything but a minuscule research scale.

A persistent aerosol emitted from a nozzle has nothing to do with commercial jet engine combustion. So either the military use a nozzle to inject aerosols or the nanoparticles are mixed with the military jet fuel.   
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Re: Is geoengineering destroying life?
« Reply #99 on: 17/10/2016 17:40:20 »
How do you expect them to burn a hydrocarbon like jet fuel without producing water vapour?
This has been pointed out to you before.

It's not that I don't understand stratospheric injection: the problem is that you have provided no evidence that it takes place on anything but a minuscule research scale.

A persistent aerosol emitted from a nozzle has nothing to do with commercial jet engine combustion. So either the military use a nozzle to inject aerosols or the nanoparticles are mixed with the military jet fuel.

Can you get it into your head that there is no evidence for the nozzles.
There is no evidence for nanoparticles (except as the smoke from coal fired power stations)
There is no evidence for the persistent aerosols (otehr than clouds of water droplets)
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