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Michelson/Morley proved that there was no ether drift and Einstein showed that there was an interpretation of the transportation of energy that did not require it.....................We are now told that there is dark matter and dark energy which we cant see or measure if so why not an ether?
As to the mechanical nature of the Lorentzian ether, it may be said of it, in a somewhat playful spirit, that immobility is the only mechanical property of which it has not been deprived by H A Lorentz. It may be added that the whole change in the conception of the ether which the special theory of relativity brought about, consisted in taking away from the ether its last mechanical quality, namely, its immobility.The space-time theory and the kinematics of the special theory of relativity were modelled on the Maxwell-Lorentz theory of the electromagnetic field. This theory therefore satisfies the conditions of the special theory of relativity, but when viewed from the latter it acquires a novel aspect. The electromagnetic fields are not states of a medium, and are not bound down to any bearer, but they are independent realities which are not reducible to anything else, exactly like the atoms of ponderable matter. This conception suggests itself the more readily as, according to Lorentz's theory, electromagnetic radiation, like ponderable matter, brings impulse and energy with it, and as, according to the special theory of relativity, both matter and radiation are but special forms of distributed energy, ponderable mass losing its isolation and appearing as a special form of energy.More careful reflection teaches us however, that the special theory of relativity does not compel us to deny ether. We may assume the existence of an ether; only we must give up ascribing a definite state of motion to it, i.e. we must by abstraction take from it the last mechanical characteristic which Lorentz had still left it. We shall see later that this point of view, the conceivability of which I shall at once endeavour to make more intelligible by a somewhat halting comparison, is justified by the results of the general theory of relativity.
But on the other hand there is a weighty argument to be adduced in favour of the ether hypothesis. To deny the ether is ultimately to assume that empty space has no physical qualities whatever. The fundamental facts of mechanics do not harmonize with this view. For the mechanical behaviour of a corporeal system hovering freely in empty space depends not only on relative positions (distances) and relative velocities, but also on its state of rotation, which physically may be taken as a characteristic not appertaining to the system in itself. In order to be able to look upon the rotation of the system, at least formally, as something real, Newton objectivises space. Since he classes his absolute space together with real things, for him rotation relative to an absolute space is also something real. Newton might no less well have called his absolute space "Ether"; what is essential is merely that besides observable objects, another thing, which is not perceptible, must be looked upon as real, to enable acceleration or rotation to be looked upon as something real.
Thank you space flow for your reply. I was however alluding to an ether WITH mechanical properties. Although being a retired civil engineer rather than a physicist I fully understand SR, its maths and posits. I am NOT a time dilation denier, but I do think there could be another explanation other than adding another dimension space time. My concept of time is that time makes things exist. Every thing in the universe moves, when movement stops things simply cease to exist in our reality. If there is matter in space that is not moving it will have no time component and not be detectable to anything in the real cosmos. Can not energy being applied to this matter make it real by moving it? This would explain how mass energy equivalence might work. So is it not possible for a photon to create a tiny piece of real matter as it goes, passing on energy not by radiation but by conduction and in the process creating a totally immeasurable but never the less real mechanical ether. This might also explain how entanglement could work. Information transmitted instantly would not require the ether to 'wake up' as there would be no time element. Having worked on model analysis and sea wave energy projects I have a great reluctance to abandon dimensional symmetry. Space time strikes me as being a mix of sugar and salt.
Photons try to maintain lowest potential by moving at C. Since they also interact with matter and the inertial reference of our universe, this adds constant potential for the friction/displacement of space-time/aether.
classical Latin aether upper regions of space, heaven, ethereal matter surrounding a deity, inhabitants of heaven, air, sky, upper air, light of day, in post-classical Latin also any of various chemical compounds analogous to diethyl ether (1760 in aether nitrosum , or earlier) < ancient Greek αἰθήρ heaven, sky, air < the base of αἴθειν to kindle, burn, shine (see aethionema n.); compare αἴθρα fair weather < the same base.
I. In literal, physical senses. 1. In ancient cosmological speculation: an element conceived as filling all space beyond the sphere of the moon, and being the constituent substance of the stars and planets and of their spheres (sphere n. 2a). Now hist.Ether was variously regarded as a purer form of fire or of air, or as differing in kind from all of the four elements. By some it was imagined to be the constituent substance, or one of the constituents, of the soul.[▸a1398 J. Trevisa tr. Bartholomaeus Anglicus De Proprietatibus Rerum (BL Add. 27944) (1975) I. viii. ii. 447 By þat name ethera is vndirstonde al þe space þat is fro þe mone anon to þe sterres..in þe whiche space beþ roundenes and cercles [of] þe seuene planetis.]▸a1398 J. Trevisa tr. Bartholomaeus Anglicus De Proprietatibus Rerum (BL Add. 27944) (1975) I. viii. v. 455 Isidir seiþ þe ouere parties of fuyre and of ayer hatte ether.1573 T. Cooper Briefe Expos. f. 89, All that is aboue vs is deuyded into two partes, the one called Aether, which is the vpper part of the Firmament wherein the Starres & Planets are, the other called the Aire.
2. Chiefly literary. a. The clear sky; the upper regions of space beyond the clouds; the medium supposed to fill the upper regions of space, as the air fills the lower regions.1587 Sir P. Sidney & A. Golding tr. P. de Mornay Trewnesse Christian Relig. ix. 139 What will hee answere to Plato, who saith that the Heauen or Skye is called Aether.
b. spec. The refined medium supposed to surround God or the gods in heaven; the refined element supposed to be breathed in heaven or by the gods.1689 W. Sherlock Pract. Disc. Death i. §2. 52 Gross earthly Bodies, as we now carry about with us, cannot live and subsist in those pure regions of Light and Glory, which God inhabits; no more than you can lodge a stone in the Air, or breathe nothing but pure Æther.
c. Air; the gaseous substance that is breathed; a form of this.1713 Guardian 1 May 2/2 They sucked in so condensed and poisonous an Aether.
3. a. Physics. An extremely rarefied and elastic substance formerly thought to permeate all space, including the interstices between the particles of ordinary matter, and (in later use) to be the medium by whose vibrations light and other electromagnetic radiation is propagated. Also more fully luminiferous ether. Now hist.Later views of the ether were that it provided an absolute frame of reference for the universe, with respect to which Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism or other field equations are valid, but that it possibly lacked any material properties. Following the negative result of the Michelson–Morley experiment (see Michelson–Morley n. 1) in 1887, and the proposal of the special theory of relativity by Einstein in 1905 (which assumed that there is no such frame of reference), the concept was gradually discarded.1644 K. Digby Two Treat. i. xxxii. 281 The Ether..like an immense Ocean, tossed with all varieties of motion.1693 R. Bentley Boyle Lect. vii. 31 These Phænomena are produced either by the intervention of air or Æther or other such medium, that communicates the Impulse from one Body to another.a1727 I. Newton Opticks (1730) iii. i. 326 Æther (like our Air) may contain Particles which endeavour to recede from one another.1778 Dict. Arts & Sci. Æther, an imaginary fluid, supposed by several authors, both ancient and modern, to be the cause of gravity, heat, light, muscular motion, and, in a word, of every phænomenon in nature..Perrault represents it as 7200 times more rare than air; and Hook makes it more dense than gold itself.1802 T. Young in Philos. Trans. (Royal Soc.) 92 14 A luminiferous Ether pervades the Universe, rare and elastic in a high degree.1872 T. H. Huxley Lessons Elem. Physiol. (ed. 6) ix. 219 The vibrations of ether..constitute the physical basis of light.1887 A. A. Michelson & E. W. Morley in Amer. Jrnl. Sci. 34 341 It appears..reasonably certain that if there be any relative motion between the earth and the luminiferous ether, it must be small.1910 Pop. Sci. Monthly Aug. 112 Einstein abandons the ether, which he declares to be the totally unnecessary conception.1951 E. T. Whittaker Hist. Theories Aether & Electr. (ed. 2) I. p. v, It seems absurd to retain the name ‘vacuum’ for an entity so rich in physical properties, and the historical word ‘aether’ may fitly be retained.1995 C. Sagan Demon-haunted World xxiii. 391 Many physicists were deeply troubled by the demise of the ‘luminiferous’ aether. They had needed some mechanical model to make the whole notion of the propagation of light in a vacuum..understandable.2008 Sci. News 19 July 2/3 The Higgs simply must exist. It's as sure a bet as the existence of ether was at the end of the 19th century.
b. colloq. The atmosphere or space as the medium through which radio or television is broadcast. Now also: the Internet or other computer network as the medium of digital communication.1917 Pop. Sci. Monthly July 3/1 Each actor is equipped with a tiny wireless telephone transmitter, and his speech is sent through the ether by ‘radio’ to a receiving station.
4. Any of various extremely rarefied or intangible substances imagined or inferred to exist; cf. aura n. 2, 3. Now hist.In later use influenced by sense 3a.1691 E. Taylor J. Behmen's Theosophick Philos. xvi. 22 The Elements themselves pass into their Ethers.
5. Chem. a. A sweet-smelling, volatile, flammable liquid made by distilling ethanol with sulphuric acid and used as a solvent, as an intermediate in chemical synthesis, and (esp. formerly) as a general anaesthetic. Also called diethyl ether.Systematic names: diethyl ether (cf. sense 5c), ethoxyethane; (CH3CH2)2O. Also called (esp. formerly) common ether, ethyl ether, ethylic ether, sulphuric ether, etc.: see the first element.1730 A. S. Frobenius in Philos. Trans. 1729–30 (Royal Soc.) 36 286 Æther then is certainly the most noble, efficacious and useful Instrument in all Chymistry and Pharmacy,..inasmuch as Essences and essential Oils are extracted by it immediately, without so much as the Mediation of Fire, from Woods, Barks, Roots, [etc.].
b. Any of a large number of neutral, volatile organic compounds (chiefly esters but also including halides, anhydrides, etc.) prepared in a similar manner to diethyl ether, typically by the reaction of ethanol or another alcohol with an acid or with a salt or other compound in the presence of sulphuric acid. Now chiefly hist. except as in sense 5c.Freq. with modifying word indicating the source compound, as acetic ether, butyric ether, chloric ether, citric ether, muriatic ether, nitric ether, nitrous ether, oenanthic ether, tartaric ether, etc. For these and also compound, petroleum ether: see the first element.1756 W. Cullen in Ess. & Observ. (Philos. Soc. Edinb.) II. 155 In another experiment made with the nitrous æther, when the heat of the air was about 53 degrees, we set the vessel containing the æther in another a little larger containing water.
c. Any of a class of organic compounds (typified by diethyl ether) having a molecule in which two alkyl or aryl groups are linked by an oxygen atom.Ethers have the general formula R2O (with identical groups R) or R′OR″ (with different groups). Frequently in names, with modifying word(s) indicating the groups present, as dimethyl ether, ethyl methyl ether, ethyl phenyl ether, etc. crown ether: see the first element.[1852 Rep. Brit. Assoc. 1851 i. 130 If the term, compound ether, be retained at all, it should be restricted to bodies like those produced by Williamson, in which a simple ether is united with an ether radical, as the oxide of ethyl with methyl or with amyl.]
II. fig. Chiefly literary. 6. Something likened to ether (esp. in senses 3, 4); the distinctive quality or character that seems to surround or be generated by a person, thing, or place; aura, ambience, atmosphere.1791 J. Boswell Life Johnson anno 1763 I. 228 My mind was..strongly impregnated with the Johnsonian æther.1793 Scots Mag. Aug. 373/1 The luminous æther of his life was not obscured by any shade dark enough to be denominated a defect.
From Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“burn; fire”). Cognate with Latin aestus, aestās, poss. aedis and Sanskrit इन्द्धे (inddhé, “to light, set on fire”).
1. I ignite, kindle, light 2. (passive) I burn, blaze
From Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“burn; fire”). Cognate with Latin aestās, poss. aedis, Ancient Greek αἴθω (aíthō)), Old English ād (“pyre”).
1. heat 2. fire 3. tide 4. surge of the sea 5. (figuratively) passion 6. (figuratively) hesitation
1. tidal marsh or opening 2. creek 3. estuary of a river 4. air shaft of a mine
Originally "place with a hearth," from Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“burn; fire”). Cognate with Latin aestus, aestās, Ancient Greek αἴθω (aíthō)), Old English ād (“pyre”).
1. temple, shrine 2. tomb 3. room 4. sing. dwelling (of gods) pl. house, abode (for people)
Derived terms • aedicula • aedifico • aedificium • aedilis
1. fire, funeral pyre
From Middle English anelen, onelen, from Old English anǣlan, onǣlan (“to set fire to, ignite, heat, inspire, incite, kindle, inflame, enlighten, burn, consume”), from Proto-Germanic *ana (“on”) + Proto-Germanic *ailijaną (“to burn”), from Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“to burn”). Related to Old English onāl (“burning, incense, that which is burnt”), Old English āl (“fire, burning”), Icelandic eldur (“fire”), Swedish eld (“fire, flame”), Danish ild (“fire”).
From earlier *aillan, from Pre-Germanic *oidlom, *h₂eydʰlom, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“to burn”).
From Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“to burn, shine”), apparently continuing an extension *h₂ey-dʰh₁- (“to put to the fire”). Related to Ancient Greek αἴθω (aíthō, “to ignite, kindle”).
1. fire, pyre
Anglicized form of the Irish saints' name Aodhán, and of the Scottish Gaelic Aodhàn, diminutives of Aodh (literally "fire", the name of a Celtic sun god).
From Old Irish Áed, from áed (“fire”).
From áed (“fire”).
From Proto-Celtic *aydus, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂eydʰ- (“to burn, kindle”).
I don't know what all that is about what I meant in laymen's terms when I asked the question was whether a mechanical ether could possibly exist despite Einstein, Michelson, Morley etc. Now a secondary related question is :- If there is sufficient free matter in space( electrons, positrons and neutrinos) to create a space temperature of 2.8 degrees K? Alternatively if dark matter exists as being 80% of total matter wouldn't that create a much higher temperature unless its thermal mass was incredibly small? Some form of mechanical ether would satisfy the temperature question.
Is there is sufficient free matter in space (electrons, positrons...) to create a space temperature of 2.8 degrees K?
enough neutrinos ....to create a space temperature of 2.8 degrees K?
Matter has physical substance.
Quote from: jeffreyH on 11 January 2016, 10:10:49Matter has physical substance.Or more to the point, "matter" defines "physical substance" (and visa versa if you want, I guess)? Space-time being just the concept of the ruler(s) we use to measure/denote the dimensions of matter and the dimensions of a place where matter could be.
Quote from: dwightf on 12/01/2016 04:47:27Quote from: jeffreyH on 11 January 2016, 10:10:49Matter has physical substance.Or more to the point, "matter" defines "physical substance" (and visa versa if you want, I guess)? Space-time being just the concept of the ruler(s) we use to measure/denote the dimensions of matter and the dimensions of a place where matter could be.Here I would have to strongly dis-agree.Physical substance is defined by having physical properties and a physical influence.This in our accepted view of reality is not just a property of matter.If you take a volume and extract all the matter and all the Energy, the volume can still be defined by physical attributes. It can by todays understanding of physics still have a shape that can be changed by gravity in GR.It would still require time to physically cross this "empty of everything matter", space.Matter is only one of the ways of defining "Physical Substance".
I absolutely agree I'm not a fan of space/time either, but an ether whilst being mechanical would have to be totally mobile either as some form of super fluid or be switched on and off in tiny quantities that wouldn't register anywhere on an interference experiment no matter how accurate.
and to be quite clear.[attachment=20767]c represents light or sight, because if A follows B with a telescope, and B follows A with a telescope, the simultaneous moment remains a linearity.
added - and just in case you don't understand that. We see the Photon leaving the sun and arriving at the exact same time , we see the photon leaving, because we don't actually see the Photon leaving, we see directly through the Photon's.