[Ethos_]

I can agree that there is a dilation of the timing mechanism synchronisation to gravity of mass that is situated in a timeless 5th dimension of space-time.

As I understand your terminology, you're saying you agree that there is a time dilation of the timing device relative to the observer.

I'm going to bow out for a while, things are getting a little too congested with so many interested parties weighing in. One thought before I go however:

If the pace of time on that time dilated clock records a slowing down,  can't one also visualize the compression of length due to Lorentz contraction?

And the reason for that connection comes from how science views space and time. The current understanding regarding these two identities is; They can not be totally separated one from the other. It's the reason you'll see the term "space/time" spoken of so often. Today, science views space/time as more or less a single entity.

More on this later.......................................Ethos

 

[guest39538]

that is an incompleteness answer, I may have to quote Gobel.

Are you sure the answer is not  - a change in the rate of time of the caesium atom?

and should time not say timing or synchronisation?

As you may have noticed and are obviously choosing to ignore the fact, I did not mention caesium atom or any matter based anything neither did I mention timing or synchronisation.
If that was what I meant, than that is what I would have said.
I am answering your direct question with a direct and complete answer and would appreciate it if you did not try to assume I ever mean anything other than what I say. I have a wife who has that kind of thing more than adequately covered.

Lol good answer , but you know and I know very well what we refer to when talking time dilation, and relative motion to a gravitational field.


I will rephrase, how do you know that there is a change in time?

By what method ?


 A change in the rate of synchronisation of the caesium atom relative to a gravitational field, notice I have no need to mention time or even consider time with this one statement?

I would have to consider timing and timing synchronisation for sure, But I  am certain anything after 0 is history, and I  can not alter the rate of 0 with any thought experiment.

[guest39538]

I can agree that there is a dilation of the timing mechanism synchronisation to gravity of mass that is situated in a timeless 5th dimension of space-time.

As I understand your terminology, you're saying you agree that there is a time dilation of the timing device relative to the observer.

I'm going to bow out for a while, things are getting a little too congested with so many interested parties weighing in. One thought before I go however:

If the pace of time on that time dilated clock records a slowing down,  can't one also visualize the compression of length due to Lorentz contraction. And the reason for that connection comes from how science views space and time. The current understanding regarding these two identities is; They can not be totally separated one from the other. It's the reason you'll see the term "space/time" spoken of so often. Today, science views space/time as more or less a single entity.

More on this later.......................................Ethos

Thank you for the conversation, and yes one  has to compare length contraction with time dilation, and yes the way science view space-time is weird imo, I observe people sort of have two views, some people seem to explain it as light, and others explain it as minkowski space-time, the interwoven manifold, but people miss the fact that space-time meaning the space between masses, is a virtual representation of time and for vector use.

The actual time in space is not existing until the space is occupied by something that needs, a need for time. i.e us


Consider this, the past , the now, the future all move with the earth and leave no trace of history in the path behind it.

[timey]

I would have to consider timing and timing synchronisation for sure, But I  am certain anything after 0 is history, and I  can not alter the rate of 0 with any thought experiment.

Box, you are talking about the here and now.  You cannot measure the here and now.

Space Flow... I also like the wife comment (chuckle)

[guest39538]

Box, you are talking about the here and now.  You cannot measure the here and now.

Space Flow... I also like the wife comment (chuckle)

So you must agree that any effect of a measurement can not affect the here and now?


You can not measure the future either, you can only record the past .

[Space Flow]

Lol good answer , but you know and I know very well what we refer to when talking time dilation, and relative motion to a gravitational field.

I have to strongly disagree with this statement.
I know very well what I refer to when talking time dilation.
I do not know what you refer to when talking time dilation.

I will rephrase, how do you know that there is a change in time?

I do not actually know anything, about anything except for the one thing I can not deny, that is that I am conscience. I exist. That is the only thing I know. Every thing else outside of that one fact is only an approximation to a truth composed of available evidence that has in some way made itself aware to my consciousness.
I do not either know or believe anything outside my own conscious being.
So having got that out, lets answer your question.
I have enough evidence accumulated over a lifetime of learning and experience to think that the closest approximation to the truth that will fit nicely with minimum discord into the jigsaw puzzle that is my internal view of reality is; that time itself is seen to dilate in any frame I observe to be in relative motion compared to me.
No other view that I have come across yet makes my reality work the way that I see it working.

You see I do not for an instant suggest that this is the way reality actually is. Tomorrow I may gain data, that explains things better and fits into my overall picture better than the current model. At such a time this present model will get dumped like a hot potato. And I still will not consider that I know the truth of it. Just a closer approximation that gives my internal view better definition.

[Space Flow]

A change in the rate of synchronisation of the caesium atom relative to a gravitational field, notice I have no need to mention time or even consider time with this one statement?

I would have to consider timing and timing synchronisation for sure, But I  am certain anything after 0 is history, and I  can not alter the rate of 0 with any thought experiment.

Without clear and concise explanations of what these incoherent attempts at communication are, I have to say that to me this is just gibberish..

[guest39538]

Lol good answer , but you know and I know very well what we refer to when talking time dilation, and relative motion to a gravitational field.

I have to strongly disagree with this statement.
I know very well what I refer to when talking time dilation.
I do not know what you refer to when talking time dilation.

I will rephrase, how do you know that there is a change in time?

I do not actually know anything, about anything except for the one thing I can not deny, that is that I am conscience. I exist. That is the only thing I know. Every thing else outside of that one fact is only an approximation to a truth composed of available evidence that has in some way made itself aware to my consciousness.
I do not either know or believe anything outside my own conscious being.
So having got that out, lets answer your question.
I have enough evidence accumulated over a lifetime of learning and experience to think that the closest approximation to the truth that will fit nicely with minimum discord into the jigsaw puzzle that is my internal view of reality is; that time itself is seen to dilate in any frame I observe to be in relative motion compared to me.
No other view that I have come across yet makes my reality work the way that I see it working.

You see I do not for an instant suggest that this is the way reality actually is. Tomorrow I may gain data, that explains things better and fits into my overall picture better than the current model. At such a time this present model will get dumped like a hot potato. And I still will not consider that I know the truth of it. Just a closer approximation that gives my internal view better definition.

Interesting views, however ,

space and distance exist , therefore I am.


I do not know about you , but if somebody punched me in the face, I am sure my senses shows me I am real, and the fact I can move freely and can change my own path being different to a rock, makes me believe we are quite real.  But I certainly understood your views and could certainly argue a ''matrix'' type state myself.


I understand you believe the knowledge provided of time dilation, but the thing is in no experiment do we show a change in time, we just show a change in rate of something compared to something.

[guest39538]

A change in the rate of synchronisation of the caesium atom relative to a gravitational field, notice I have no need to mention time or even consider time with this one statement?

I would have to consider timing and timing synchronisation for sure, But I  am certain anything after 0 is history, and I  can not alter the rate of 0 with any thought experiment.

Without clear and concise explanations of what these incoherent attempts at communication are, I have to say that to me this is just gibberish..

What does science observe in the Keating experiment!

A change in the rate of synchronisation of the caesium atom relative to a gravitational field,


Ok?

[timey]

So you must agree that any effect of a measurement can not affect the here and now?


You can not measure the future either, you can only record the past

A measurement of time is to record sequential events.  We can measure events happening in the here and now, at which point they become history, and we can anticipate, based on the history of events, what may happen in the future.

However, in the world of quantum it is observed that to measure an event does indeed seem to have an effect on the here and now.

[guest39538]

So you must agree that any effect of a measurement can not affect the here and now?


You can not measure the future either, you can only record the past

A measurement of time is to record sequential events.  We can measure events happening in the here and now, at which point they become history, and we can anticipate, based on the history of events, what may happen in the future.

However, in the world of quantum it is observed that to measure an event does indeed seem to have an effect on the here and now.

The here and now is zero/naught/0

In ten minutes time the here and now will still be 0.

The rate of here and now is 0

Let me prove this to you


Count to 5

12345

count to 5 again but re-moving 1 and replacing it with 0

02345

remove 2 and replace

00345

remove 3 and replace

00045

remove 4 and replace

00005

remove 5 and replace

00000


Can you see that 0 is always equal to the position of 1?
11111
12345
00000


added - just consider, you can't measure time, you can only observe time.

[Space Flow]

What does science observe in the Keating experiment!

A change in the rate of synchronisation of the caesium atom relative to a gravitational field,


Ok?

And what do you attribute such an observed change to?
What is the cause of this observed behavior according to you?

[guest39538]

What does science observe in the Keating experiment!

A change in the rate of synchronisation of the caesium atom relative to a gravitational field,


Ok?

And what do you attribute such an observed change to?
What is the cause of this observed behavior according to you?

I attribute the change of rate of the caesium atom being relative to motion relative to another body and bodies motion, and the cause of behaviour is the motion of accleration , an object at rest in a constant gravity inertial reference frame, i..e an object on earth Fn=a9.82m/s=N , this is constant, you are changing the constant of a9.82m/s to create an off-set


added - Hard explain, when an object accelerates away from the ground , the force decreases the masses gravity acceleration. Your making mass acceleration invert .

[timey]

A measurement of time is to record sequential events.  We can measure events happening in the here and now, at which point they become history, and we can anticipate, based on the history of events, what may happen in the future.

However, in the world of quantum it is observed that to measure an event does indeed seem to have an effect on the here and now.

The here and now is zero/naught/0

In ten minutes time the here and now will still be 0.

The rate of here and now is 0

Let me prove this to you


Count to 5

12345

count to 5 again but re-moving 1 and replacing it with 0

02345

remove 2 and replace

00345

remove 3 and replace

00045

remove 4 and replace

00005

remove 5 and replace

00000


Can you see that 0 is always equal to the position of 1?
11111
12345
00000


added - just consider, you can't measure time, you can only observe time.

Erm, nope!  You can observe the here and now, 'this instant', and a measurement of time is a record of here and nows, which become history as you record them.  The future is an anticipation of here and nows to come.

A change in the rate of time is a dilation or contraction of the rate that sequential events occur at, but the here and now remains the here and now within those dilations or contractions.

I do not know why you describe this here and now as being zero.

[guest39538]

A measurement of time is to record sequential events.  We can measure events happening in the here and now, at which point they become history, and we can anticipate, based on the history of events, what may happen in the future.

However, in the world of quantum it is observed that to measure an event does indeed seem to have an effect on the here and now.

The here and now is zero/naught/0

In ten minutes time the here and now will still be 0.

The rate of here and now is 0

Let me prove this to you


Count to 5

12345

count to 5 again but re-moving 1 and replacing it with 0

02345

remove 2 and replace

00345

remove 3 and replace

00045

remove 4 and replace

00005

remove 5 and replace

00000


Can you see that 0 is always equal to the position of 1?
11111
12345
00000


added - just consider, you can't measure time, you can only observe time.

Erm, nope!  You can observe the here and now, 'this instant', and a measurement of time is a record of here and nows, which become history as you record them.  The future is an anticipation of here and nows to come.

A change in the rate of time is a dilation or contraction of the rate that sequential events occur at, but the here and now remains the here and now within those dilations or contractions.

I do not know why you describe this here and now as being zero.

You must have missed the why thread, most members agreed with me .   Consider that anything after 0 is history, try it, try to do any measurement after zero with out it being instant history.

[Space Flow]

I attribute the change of rate of the caesium atom being relative to motion relative to another body and bodies motion, and the cause of behaviour is the motion of accleration , an object at rest in a constant gravity inertial reference frame, i..e an object on earth Fn=a9.82m/s=N , this is constant, you are changing the constant of a9.82m/s to create an off-set

I would ask you to expand on that please. And in expanding that explanation reference the fact that the effect has been shown to be measurable with one clock stationary on the Ground floor of a building, with the other clock stationary on the top floor of the same building.

[guest39538]

I attribute the change of rate of the caesium atom being relative to motion relative to another body and bodies motion, and the cause of behaviour is the motion of accleration , an object at rest in a constant gravity inertial reference frame, i..e an object on earth Fn=a9.82m/s=N , this is constant, you are changing the constant of a9.82m/s to create an off-set

I would ask you to expand on that please. And in expanding that explanation reference the fact that the effect has been shown to be measurable with one clock stationary on the Ground floor of a building, with the other clock stationary on the top floor of the same building.

I have not heard of that fact, and that would affect my reasoning. If indeed two stationary clocks, in the same building , one on the ground floor and the second on a upper floor, and the effect is observed, then I can only conclude that difference is because gravity is weaker at a distance and the upper clock is experienced less strength.  However they both would experience the same constant of Newtons and Fn unless things weigh slightly less at altitude,

I am not sure, something to with calibration maybe.

[alancalverd]

Surely the special relativity effects only apply to the accelerated reference frame?

Exactly the opposite. SR concerns only the special case of constant velocity. The more general case of nonzero acceleration or position in a graviational field is called general relativity.

[alancalverd]

then I can only conclude that difference is because gravity is weaker at a distance and the upper clock is experienced less strength. 

The light is beginning to dawn! Welcome to the rational world, friend.

[Space Flow]

Quote from: timey on Today at 06:21:58

Surely the special relativity effects only apply to the accelerated reference frame?

Exactly the opposite. SR concerns only the special case of constant velocity. The more general case of nonzero acceleration or position in a graviational field is called general relativity.

Thank you for answering timey Alan. I am trying to concentrate on Thebox.