Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Quote from: Craig W. Thomson on Today at 15:20:29
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You're right, the earth is not a COMPLETELY closed system, but it can be "rounded off" to a closed system for practical purposes. Of course, the only way to escape earth is by rocket, meteorites occasionally get through, that's about it. Other than that, it is essentially a closed system....

FFSEither the Earth is a closed system or it's not.
And since we are talking about greenhouse gases it's pretty damned obvious that you have to treat it as an open system. Do you not understand that the earth can gain and lose energy?
And that's why
we need to consider the heat we get every day from the Sun and why
 we can largely ignore the heat that was added- and lost- over the last 200 years.
And, while it's been pointed out before, just to reiterate"
Of course, I don't need to actually do any math or understand any physics to know that, when several billion people apply combustion to 100 million years worth of fossil fuels in a mere 150 years, that's going to produce more than "not very much" heat."

That's like saying I don't need maths to say there are six legs on a donkey.It's technically true that I don't need maths to say it- but if I could use maths I'd realise it wasn't true and I'd not say it.

While we are at it, re." The first and second laws of thermodynamics have nothing to do with causality. "
I think you will find that causality and the second law are rather closely related- via "time's arrow".

But you actually need to understand entropy to realise that .
Maybe like someone who studied thermodynamics as part of university chemistry, rather than someone who doggedly muddles the 1st and 2nd laws without realising that they don't apply to an open system like that under discussion.

Why don't you just stop being wrong about everything.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2016 20:53:20 by Bored chemist »
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Offline puppypower

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What caused the earth to warm from the last ice age to the present?  Did this much global warming, for such a long period of time, destroy the planet? If you look at the map below, why isn;t the entire earth now under water with the amount of melting that occurred? What is left is chicken feed but that much is supposed to count for much more.



One mantra, connected to manmade global warming and climate change is "we are destroying the planet". Based on warming from the last ice age, this is not real, unless destroy the planet has a new PC definition, that is detached from formal science. Why does't science formally refute, destroy the planet theory, since this is not proven science? It appears consensus science is content to allow misunderstanding for some unknown reason.

How does CO2 destroy the planet, since this theory is not being refuted by the consensus of science? Will the planet become another asteroid belt? Is there some insider information that is being withheld to prevent panic?
« Last Edit: 31/03/2016 13:15:55 by puppypower »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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But you actually need to understand entropy to realise that .
Maybe like someone who studied thermodynamics as part of university chemistry, rather than someone who doggedly muddles the 1st and 2nd laws without realising that they don't apply to an open system like that under discussion.

Why don't you just stop being wrong about everything.
I understand entropy just fine. Like I said, I have a dog-eared copy of Jeremy Rifkin's book Entropy: Into the Greenhouse World that I've read at least 4 times since 1988. Why don't you stop pretending you understand it better than I do?

I've got news for you, pal. I have a college degree, so I am familiar with the idea that lots of people graduate and still don't understand what they studied. I think maybe you are one of those.

This is my second physics forum in 3 years, so I'm also familiar with the idea that lots of crackpots and failures with science degrees tend to gravitate toward public forums after being spurned by actual scientists, and they like to pick on laymen like me to make themselves feel better.
« Last Edit: 31/03/2016 15:01:41 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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And since we are talking about greenhouse gases it's pretty damned obvious that you have to treat it as an open system. Do you not understand that the earth can gain and lose energy?
False. If I locked you in a small, airtight room, that's a closed system. Breathe, and the CO2 content goes up. Try burning a pile of wood in there and you're going to see what makes it a closed system.

I'm going to let you open a window, but only 1/16 of an inch. That's enough to consider it an open system. Now let's lock a few more people in there with you, and have them set fire to a few more piles of wood. That system now contains several hot, choking people.

Sorry, the earth doesn't have a window we can open to let in some fresh air. The appropriate analogy is that the earth's window is open, but only a crack, and it cannot be adjusted. That's what I meant when I said it is "essentially a closed system," and that is correct.

And anyway, I strongly suspect that if I had said, "The earth is an open system," you would have taken the opposite point of view simply because you like to argue.
« Last Edit: 31/03/2016 15:20:22 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Why don't you just stop being wrong about everything.
Why don't you just start being right about something.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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I think you will find that causality and the second law are rather closely related- via "time's arrow".
Your bias as an alleged chemist is showing.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Feynman_EP_Annihilation.svg/2000px-Feynman_EP_Annihilation.svg.png

Uh, oh. Looks like particles are moving backward in time. Are you sure you really want to go there? You already look pretty silly discussing your area of expertise, and I know A LOT more about physics than chemistry.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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What caused the earth to warm from the last ice age to the present?  Did this much global warming, for such a long period of time, destroy the planet?
When the first bacteria evolved, the earth's atmosphere had a chemical composition. As the bacteria multiplied, they changed the composition of that atmosphere by feeding on one substance and creating waste products. As bacteria evolved into more complex life forms, those had to be adapted to the new atmosphere being created. In fact, when plant cells first evolved photosynthesis, they changed the composition of the atmosphere drastically, killing most species. Remaining species had to find ways to cope with the new atmosphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

Here's the point: Yes, a species can be so successful that it changes the entire atmosphere. The atmosphere's contents are determined in part by the complex web of life on Earth. There are lots of checks and balances that provide the atmosphere's contents stability. Species fit into niches and don't normally overrun the entire planet, which helps stabilize the atmosphere's contents. Humans are different. We learned how to control fire only recently in geological terms, and now there are more than 7 billion people relying primarily on the release of stored solar energy from fossil fuels for their livelihood, releasing lots of CO2 as we do, and chopping down forests in the process to make room for cities and farmland, and grazing land for almost a billion and a half cattle that make their own greenhouse contributions, comparable to an automobile as they weigh almost half a ton and eat almost 25 pounds of grass a day each. I don't know what it is today, but about 25 years ago, I was shocked to learn the Earth was losing about one Indiana-sized state worth of forest land every year, over a hundred square miles a day. That's important, because forests are the best way to take CO2 back out of the system. That's what coal deposits are: ancient forests that trapped the sun's energy, and CO2 in the process. In a very real sense, when we burn coal, we're turning the atmosphere back into what it was before those ancient forests helped make it livable for today's life forms.

http://nas-sites.org/americasclimatechoices/files/2012/10/Figure-14.png

It doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that the invention of fire, the Industrial Revolution, and the explosion of human population from a few million to a few billion coincide with the dramatic spike at the end of that chart. All the previous information in that chart indicates that the news media should have been reporting on a cooling trend for the last two decades, not telling us we've experienced yet another year of record high temperatures.
« Last Edit: 31/03/2016 16:06:41 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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That's like saying I don't need maths to say there are six legs on a donkey. It's technically true that I don't need maths to say it- but if I could use maths I'd realise it wasn't true and I'd not say it.
As far as I can see, you've basically made the argument here that chopping a donkey's leg off a little bit at a time isn't eventually going to affect the way it walks, you're stubborn as a mule, and your third leg gets stiff when you pretend to be an authority.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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What caused the earth to warm from the last ice age to the present?  Did this much global warming, for such a long period of time, destroy the planet?
When the first bacteria evolved, the earth's atmosphere had a chemical composition. As the bacteria multiplied, they changed the composition of that atmosphere by feeding on one substance and creating waste products. As bacteria evolved into more complex life forms, those had to be adapted to the new atmosphere being created. In fact, when plant cells first evolved photosynthesis, they changed the composition of the atmosphere drastically, killing most species. Remaining species had to find ways to cope with the new atmosphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

Here's the point: Yes, a species can be so successful that it changes the entire atmosphere. The atmosphere's contents are determined in part by the complex web of life on Earth. There are lots of checks and balances that provide the atmosphere's contents stability. Species fit into niches and don't normally overrun the entire planet, which helps stabilize the atmosphere's contents. Humans are different. We learned how to control fire only recently in geological terms, and now there are more than 7 billion people relying primarily on the release of stored solar energy from fossil fuels for their livelihood, releasing lots of CO2 as we do, and chopping down forests in the process to make room for cities and farmland, and grazing land for almost a billion and a half cattle that make their own greenhouse contributions, comparable to an automobile as they weigh almost half a ton and eat almost 25 pounds of grass a day each.

Today the rain forrests of he world are being chopped down to plant sugar crops. This is used to make bio-diesel. Well done the green movement.

Quote
I don't know what it is today, but about 25 years ago, I was shocked to learn the Earth was losing about one Indiana-sized state worth of forest land every year, over a hundred square miles a day. That's important, because forests are the best way to take CO2 back out of the system. That's what coal deposits are: ancient forests that trapped the sun's energy, and CO2 in the process. In a very real sense, when we burn coal, we're turning the atmosphere back into what it was before those ancient forests helped make it livable for today's life forms.

Yes those numbers were all the rage back then. Then they put up a satelite and found that the Amazon was not being chopped down very much at all. The greenies had made it all up. Then we had climate change appear.

Quote
http://nas-sites.org/americasclimatechoices/files/2012/10/Figure-14.png

It doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that the invention of fire, the Industrial Revolution, and the explosion of human population from a few million to a few billion coincide with the dramatic spike at the end of that chart. All the previous information in that chart indicates that the news media should have been reporting on a cooling trend for the last two decades, not telling us we've experienced yet another year of record high temperatures.

Them can you explain the medeval warm and the holocene optimal, in the bronze age, where it was even warmer?

I think the world is more optimal for humanity and life in general with a bit of a warmer world.

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Offline jeffreyH

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When the first bacteria evolved, the earth's atmosphere had a chemical composition.

So you mean before that no chemicals existed?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Bored chemist

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I think you will find that causality and the second law are rather closely related- via "time's arrow".
Your bias as an alleged chemist is showing.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Feynman_EP_Annihilation.svg/2000px-Feynman_EP_Annihilation.svg.png

Uh, oh. Looks like particles are moving backward in time. Are you sure you really want to go there? You already look pretty silly discussing your area of expertise, and I know A LOT more about physics than chemistry.
Yes! I'm sure I want to go there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time
rather than on some random tangent about Feynman diagrams (which, BTW, have precious little to do with entropy)
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Offline Bored chemist

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But you actually need to understand entropy to realise that .
Maybe like someone who studied thermodynamics as part of university chemistry, rather than someone who doggedly muddles the 1st and 2nd laws without realising that they don't apply to an open system like that under discussion.

Why don't you just stop being wrong about everything.
I understand entropy just fine. Like I said, I have a dog-eared copy of Jeremy Rifkin's book Entropy: Into the Greenhouse World that I've read at least 4 times since 1988. Why don't you stop pretending you understand it better than I do?

I've got news for you, pal. I have a college degree, so I am familiar with the idea that lots of people graduate and still don't understand what they studied. I think maybe you are one of those.

This is my second physics forum in 3 years, so I'm also familiar with the idea that lots of crackpots and failures with science degrees tend to gravitate toward public forums after being spurned by actual scientists, and they like to pick on laymen like me to make themselves feel better.
"I understand entropy just fine. Like I said, I have a dog-eared copy of Jeremy Rifkin's book Entropy: Into the Greenhouse World that I've read at least 4 times since 1988."
Speaking of 1988, here's a film clip from then (or thereabouts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j3adcbEwSM

"Why don't you stop pretending you understand it better than I do?"
I'm not pretending- I keep demonstrating it and then you wander off to some other nonsense.
"I've got news for you, pal. I have a college degree, so I am familiar with the idea that lots of people graduate and still don't understand what they studied. I think maybe you are one of those."
and, once again, get a mirror. Come to think of it, get a refund.

"This is my second physics forum in 3 years"
This isn't a physics forum.

"I'm also familiar with the idea that lots of crackpots and failures with science degrees tend to gravitate toward public forums after being spurned by actual scientists, and they like to pick on laymen like me to make themselves feel better."
Feel free to make up your mind are you a scientist or a layman.

And I'm not picking on you to make me look good- if I was doing that I wouldn't have posted the bit about playing chess with a pigeon.
I'm picking on you because you keep polluting this site with nonsense.
I am a scientist by the way, it's what I'm paid for by her majesty's government; but I'm not allowed to say which bit- that's why this isn't posted under my real name)
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Offline Bored chemist

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That's like saying I don't need maths to say there are six legs on a donkey. It's technically true that I don't need maths to say it- but if I could use maths I'd realise it wasn't true and I'd not say it.
As far as I can see, you've basically made the argument here that chopping a donkey's leg off a little bit at a time isn't eventually going to affect the way it walks, you're stubborn as a mule, and your third leg gets stiff when you pretend to be an authority.
No,  the actual point I made which is that you can't be expected to do science if you are innumerate.

But if you want to stretch that silly argument then the argument I made was that if you cut the donkey's hair from time to time but someone else is attacking it with a meat cleaver, the's the guy with the cleaver that is going to trouble the donkey more.
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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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No,  the actual point I made which is that you can't be expected to do science if you are innumerate.

But if you want to stretch that silly argument then the argument I made was that if you cut the donkey's hair from time to time but someone else is attacking it with a meat cleaver, the's the guy with the cleaver that is going to trouble the donkey more.
Yes, I'm a donkey, you're the guy with a meat cleaver who can't add 1 plus 1/15,000, Jeffrey H. is the guy who can't read. Any other empty barrels care to make a sound?
« Last Edit: 01/04/2016 13:24:56 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Them can you explain the medeval warm and the holocene optimal, in the bronze age, where it was even warmer?

I think the world is more optimal for humanity and life in general with a bit of a warmer world. [/color]
I think the world is more optimal for humanity and life in general without you spouting off unsubstantiated opinions.

The medieval warm period was caused by people chopping down trees to fuel industry. Of course, back then, pretty much everything was made of wood: Plates, bowls, spoons, buckets, troughs, pails, houses, furniture, roads, bridges, factories, plows, wagons, etc. Wood was burned for heat, and trees were cut down to make charcoal for factories. Then, Black Death ensued, killing about 1/3 of the human population, mostly in Asia and Europe, which caused the economy to grind to a halt, followed by a cooling period when people weren't cutting down and burning trees so fast. That is known as the Little Ice Age.

We are currently in the Medieval Worm Period, when flat earth climate change deniers populate science forums.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Yes! I'm sure I want to go there.

rather than on some random tangent about Feynman diagrams (which, BTW, have precious little to do with entropy)
Wrong on two counts.

A Fish Called Wanda is a random tangent.

When particles interact as per creation/annihilation events pictured in Feynmann diagrams, YES, there IS entropy.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Them can you explain the medeval warm and the holocene optimal, in the bronze age, where it was even warmer?

I think the world is more optimal for humanity and life in general with a bit of a warmer world. [/color]
I think the world is more optimal for humanity and life in general without you spouting off unsubstantiated opinions.

The medieval warm period was caused by people chopping down trees to fuel industry.

1, Industry was not there. Industry happened during the industrial revolution.

2, If the earth's climate was that sensitive to tiny amounts of CO2 we would be boiling now we have added many many more times those amounts.

3, What about the bronze age Holocen Optimal? So called because it was considered the optimal climate for humans.


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Of course, back then, pretty much everything was made of wood: Plates, bowls, spoons, buckets, troughs, pails, houses, furniture, roads, bridges, factories, plows, wagons, etc. Wood was burned for heat, and trees were cut down to make charcoal for factories. Then, Black Death ensued, killing about 1/3 of the human population, mostly in Asia and Europe, which caused the economy to grind to a halt, followed by a cooling period when people weren't cutting down and burning trees so fast. That is known as the Little Ice Age.

Black death happened 50 years after the little ice age started.

Quote
We are currently in the Medieval Worm Period, when flat earth climate change deniers populate science forums.

Talking drivel is not scientific. Stop it.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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1, Industry was not there. Industry happened during the industrial revolution.

2, If the earth's climate was that sensitive to tiny amounts of CO2 we would be boiling now we have added many many more times those amounts.

3, What about the bronze age Holocen Optimal? So called because it was considered the optimal climate for humans.

Talking drivel is not scientific. Stop it.
1. False. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology

2. False, that's hyperbole, also known as "talking drivel," which is not scientific.

3. Bronze Age ?? You said there was no industry until the Industrial Revolution, now you're citing ancient industry.

So, you not only don't understand physics, chemistry, biology or math, I guess now we can add history to the list. Maybe you should stick to talking about something you are familiar with, like pipes and toilets.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2016 14:23:08 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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1, Industry was not there. Industry happened during the industrial revolution.

2, If the earth's climate was that sensitive to tiny amounts of CO2 we would be boiling now we have added many many more times those amounts.

3, What about the bronze age Holocen Optimal? So called because it was considered the optimal climate for humans.

Talking drivel is not scientific. Stop it.
1. False. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_technology
Technology is a different idea to industry. You really have a problem thinking clearly don't you.

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2. False, that's hyperbole, also known as "talking drivel," which is not scientific.
No, if the impact of the tiny changes in CO2 level that would have resulted from the slight amount of wood burnt and trees cut down or regrown was enough to cause significant climate changes then we should be boiling now. By which I mean we would be seeing the oceans boiling at the surface.

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3. Bronze Age ?? You said there was no industry until the Industrial Revolution, now you're citing ancient industry.
No. I am citing ancient climate changes. There was no industry back then. Why was it so warm?

Quote
So, you don't understand physics, chemistry, biology, math or history. Maybe you should stick to talking about something you are familiar with, like pipes and toilets.

You pollute this forum with gibberish and make it very difficult to have adult conversations. I strongly request the nutters are corralled into a separate sub forum and allowed out when they can think.

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Offline jeffreyH

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No,  the actual point I made which is that you can't be expected to do science if you are innumerate.

But if you want to stretch that silly argument then the argument I made was that if you cut the donkey's hair from time to time but someone else is attacking it with a meat cleaver, the's the guy with the cleaver that is going to trouble the donkey more.
Yes, I'm a donkey, you're the guy with a meat cleaver who can't add 1 plus 1/15,000, Jeffrey H. is the guy who can't read. Any other empty barrels care to make a sound?

Hey Craig. Maybe you can teach me how to read. Maybe start here and then move on to more sophisticated models using some of that calculus you love so much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_model
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Just to let you know Craig I worked for 8 years developing hydrological modeling software. Look up hydrology if the term is new to you. So I spent an awful lot of time with climatologists. I also did sewer flow modeling and analysis, but that is a different story. There's your intro for another rash of insults. Look it's on a plate waiting for you.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2016 17:11:03 by jeffreyH »
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Bored chemist

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You're the guy with a meat cleaver who can't add 1 plus 1/15,000,
Since there was never any call to do that sum three is no way you could know whether I can do it or not is there?
No.
OK so it's another strawman.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Yes! I'm sure I want to go there.

rather than on some random tangent about Feynman diagrams (which, BTW, have precious little to do with entropy)
Wrong on two counts.

A Fish Called Wanda is a random tangent.

When particles interact as per creation/annihilation events pictured in Feynmann diagrams, YES, there IS entropy.
the particular quote from the file (about a minute into that clip)
"Apes don't read philosophy. Yes they do; they just don't understand"
it is  not a random tangent, it's a reply to your implication that this
"I understand entropy just fine. Like I said, I have a dog-eared copy of Jeremy Rifkin's book Entropy: Into the Greenhouse World that I've read at least 4 times since 1988."
has any baring on the matters under discussion.
You may own a book.
You might even read it.
But you still know nothing about entropy.

If you want to show that I'm wrong and that you are right about this "When particles interact as per creation/annihilation events pictured in Feynmann diagrams, YES, there IS entropy."
Just tell me what the entropy change is for that reaction.
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Offline alancalverd

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No. I am citing ancient climate changes. There was no industry back then. Why was it so warm?[/color]

Because the Romans invented underfloor heating and introduced it to Britain, and being greedy bastards without the essential hardiness of woad-clad Brits they cut down all the trees and set fire to them thus causing massive global warming so they could grow grapes and introduce malaria to East Anglia in order to weaken the invading Norse and Saxon hordes. Really, the historical ignorance of you deniers is appalling. You'll  be telling us next that the 12th century global cooling wasn't a punishment from God for the invention of Protestantism and Bruno's challenging of Papal authority.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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No. I am citing ancient climate changes. There was no industry back then. Why was it so warm?[/color]

Because the Romans invented underfloor heating and introduced it to Britain, and being greedy bastards without the essential hardiness of woad-clad Brits they cut down all the trees and set fire to them thus causing massive global warming so they could grow grapes and introduce malaria to East Anglia in order to weaken the invading Norse and Saxon hordes. Really, the historical ignorance of you deniers is appalling. You'll  be telling us next that the 12th century global cooling wasn't a punishment from God for the invention of Protestantism and Bruno's challenging of Papal authority.

LOL! I am unsure whether to reply in kind with an attack on your ideas and your person, to keep it in the same style as the rest of the thread, or to try to point out useful stuff. I'll do the latter just to be alternative;

If you want to have a science forum you will have to be harsh with your allowance of idiocy. It's sort of OK to have a load of simple questions asked by those who have not done any science but this needs to be in it's own section otherwise more advanced discussions will be drowned out by the noise.

It is never OK to allow a science forum to become a platform for drivel. Not only will this legitimize the drivel for the mad but it does not allow the inportant points of the thread to be hammered out. In this thread B.Chemist is on the warmist side of the argument. I would like to quiz him about why he considers all this to be at all dangerous to humanity. Because he is legitimately spending his time defending his good science from a nutter he is able, or even is forced to, avoid the more difficult questions. The debate is fouled up by the presence of loud nutters.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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The debate is fouled up by the presence of loud nutters.
Yes, and the loudest nutter has a penchant for posting in blue.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Technology is a different idea to industry. You really have a problem thinking clearly don't you.

You pollute this forum with gibberish and make it very difficult to have adult conversations. I strongly request the nutters are corralled into a separate sub forum and allowed out when they can think.
The industry of the time is determined by the technology of the time. Learning to control fire to cook food or clear farm land is still "technology" and "industry" for ancient man.

You have too many gaps in your knowledge to criticize anyone for not being able to think. I suggest you read a science book and maybe even take some science courses before you come here running off at the mouth with your pseudoscience and argumentative nonsense.

Again, burning stuff creates heat and CO2. The CO2 helps the atmosphere trap that extra heat.

If you're saying anything other than that, YOU'RE polluting the forum with gibberish and need to be corralled in a separate sub-forum.

At least Bored Chemist and alancalverd are using cherry-picked science facts to prop up their flimsy arguments and nitpick at the details of climate change. You don't even have that.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2016 15:42:50 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline jeffreyH

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Tell me Craig when did you last see any environmental data close up? Ever done any base flow regression analysis? Selected any storm events from rainfall data. Or maybe contributed to the 100 year flood assessment? Our MD was the president of The British Hydrological society. He organised international conferences not only on hydrology but climate change. Don't stereotype or make sweeping generalisations. They come back to bite you.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Again, burning stuff creates heat and CO2. The CO2 helps the atmosphere trap that extra heat.

At least Bored Chemist and alancalverd are using cherry-picked science facts to prop up their flimsy arguments and nitpick at the details of climate change. You don't even have that.
The point is not that the CO2 traps the tiny little bit of heat generated directly by burning fossil fuels. The point is that it traps all heat- including a share of the 15000 times more heat that we get from the sun.

I'm still waiting for you to address this
If you want to show that I'm wrong and that you are right about this "When particles interact as per creation/annihilation events pictured in Feynmann diagrams, YES, there IS entropy."
Just tell me what the entropy change is for that reaction.
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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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I'm still waiting for you to address this
If you want to show that I'm wrong and that you are right about this "When particles interact as per creation/annihilation events pictured in Feynmann diagrams, YES, there IS entropy."
Just tell me what the entropy change is for that reaction.
See? That's why I asked you if you were sure you wanted to go there.

Lots of those diagrams indicate "one way" processes. Normally, particles decay from heavier, less stable particles to lighter, more stable particles. You're not going to see any Feynman diagrams of processes going the other way unless you've added energy to the system somehow, and probably a lot of it, such as with a particle accelerator.

Entropy is often said to be the "arrow of time," and this is why. Big Bang nucleosynthesis was the cascading of all the mass/energy in its highly ordered, "singularity particle" state into more and more stable forms of mass and energy that are spread out and diffuse. Energy naturally wants to spread out, not stay crammed together in one place. The entropy law, among other things, reflects this tendency.

Remember the log? Burn it, and you get heat, ash and smoke. Together, those things technically equal the log. That's the 1st Law. Collecting the ash, smoke and heat back together to make a log takes more energy than you got burning it. That's the 2nd Law. Using a particle accelerator to create a heavy particle that hasn't existed in large numbers since the Universe was a few seconds old is a bit like putting ashes, smoke and heat back together to get a log. Think about how much energy it takes just to get a new particle or two out of an accelerator, enough to power whole cities.

In a sense, "creating" a heavier particle in a particle accelerator by colliding a lot of mass and energy at a single point is like "turning back the clock," because everything in the early universe was much closer together back then, so it still had a temperature and density similar to the conditions at that impact point in the particle accelerator.

In short, when you see a Feynman diagram, rest assured, the entropy law is being expressed somewhere, quite possibly right there in the diagram itself.

Is there anything else you would like to know?

« Last Edit: 02/04/2016 16:52:40 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Don't stereotype or make sweeping generalisations. They come back to bite you.
Here's a stereotype I read about in the news:

http://www.businessinsider.com/proof-republicans-really-are-dumber-than-democrats-2012-5

« Last Edit: 02/04/2016 17:12:45 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Technology is a different idea to industry. You really have a problem thinking clearly don't you.

You pollute this forum with gibberish and make it very difficult to have adult conversations. I strongly request the nutters are corralled into a separate sub forum and allowed out when they can think.
The industry of the time is determined by the technology of the time. Learning to control fire to cook food or clear farm land is still "technology" and "industry" for ancient man.

You have too many gaps in your knowledge to criticize anyone for not being able to think. I suggest you read a science book and maybe even take some science courses before you come here running off at the mouth with your pseudoscience and argumentative nonsense.

Again, burning stuff creates heat and CO2. The CO2 helps the atmosphere trap that extra heat.

If you're saying anything other than that, YOU'RE polluting the forum with gibberish and need to be corralled in a separate sub-forum.

At least Bored Chemist and alancalverd are using cherry-picked science facts to prop up their flimsy arguments and nitpick at the details of climate change. You don't even have that.

The word industry, today, refers to the organised use of labour to make stuff and to provide services.

Before the industrial revolution it was used to refer to working hard.

Industry and technology are separate ideas.

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Offline alancalverd

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Again, burning stuff creates heat and CO2. The CO2 helps the atmosphere trap that extra heat.
That's not what the IPCC says. How dare you contradict the consensus of the world's best-paid climate "scientists"?
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline agyejy

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From a purely black body radiation standpoint (neglecting albedo and emissivity) without its atmosphere the Earth would have a mean surface temp of 255 K or -18.15 C/-0.67 F. This is pretty much 100% from just the incoming solar radiation. The actual measured mean surface temp of Earth is 287 K which is a difference of about 32 K. The sun delivers approximately 783,000,000 terawatt hours of energy to the Earth over the course of the year and all this energy takes us from 3 K (the blackbody temperature of the universe) to 255 K for an increase of 252 K. This means it takes 3,110,000 TWh per year to increase mean global temperature by a single degree K and this is a significant underestimate because the rate at which energy is radiated away increases non-linearly with increasing temperature. So in reality the amount of energy is much higher than this. Now the greenhouse effect has added about 32 K so adjusting for that we get 2,760,000 TWh per year to increase mean global temperature by a single degree K. As of 2011 the world used about 150,000 TWh of energy per year (this counts all possible ways of consuming energy). So even taking into account the greenhouse effect and assuming all of this energy ends up as heat eventually the net increase of Earth's mean surface temperature due to just the actual heat humans produce is on the order of 0.05 K and of course this temperature increase would be basically a one time increase i.e we have to use this much energy each year just to maintain the unnatural extra 0.05 K increase if we stop it goes back to just the plain sun value. Thus, we would have seen the mean surface temperature increase by 0.05 K over pre-industrial values with slight yearly increases tied directly to increases in energy consumption which currently stand at about 3,000 TWh per year or 0.001 K per year.

So the takeaway from that is that if the heat generated by humans was a significant contributor to changes in global temperature than the total change should have been on the order of 0.05 K since say 1880 to today with a change of about 0.001 K per year. (Remembering that we've easily overestimated the impact of energy on temperature.) What we've actually seen is an increase of 0.8 K with yearly increases of about 0.02 K which are somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 times the overestimated values of direct heating by humans. Does human activity directly heat the Earth? Of course it does. Is that effect significant? No it is easily 20 times smaller than the observed changes. Personally I believe the evidence for anthropomorphic climate change but I also understand that the direct heating of the Earth by the human use of energy is not significant.

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Offline Bored chemist

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I'm still waiting for you to address this
If you want to show that I'm wrong and that you are right about this "When particles interact as per creation/annihilation events pictured in Feynmann diagrams, YES, there IS entropy."
Just tell me what the entropy change is for that reaction.
See? That's why I asked you if you were sure you wanted to go there.

Lots of those diagrams indicate "one way" processes. Normally, particles decay from heavier, less stable particles to lighter, more stable particles. You're not going to see any Feynman diagrams of processes going the other way unless you've added energy to the system somehow, and probably a lot of it, such as with a particle accelerator.

Entropy is often said to be the "arrow of time," and this is why. Big Bang nucleosynthesis was the cascading of all the mass/energy in its highly ordered, "singularity particle" state into more and more stable forms of mass and energy that are spread out and diffuse. Energy naturally wants to spread out, not stay crammed together in one place. The entropy law, among other things, reflects this tendency.

Remember the log? Burn it, and you get heat, ash and smoke. Together, those things technically equal the log. That's the 1st Law. Collecting the ash, smoke and heat back together to make a log takes more energy than you got burning it. That's the 2nd Law. Using a particle accelerator to create a heavy particle that hasn't existed in large numbers since the Universe was a few seconds old is a bit like putting ashes, smoke and heat back together to get a log. Think about how much energy it takes just to get a new particle or two out of an accelerator, enough to power whole cities.

In a sense, "creating" a heavier particle in a particle accelerator by colliding a lot of mass and energy at a single point is like "turning back the clock," because everything in the early universe was much closer together back then, so it still had a temperature and density similar to the conditions at that impact point in the particle accelerator.

In short, when you see a Feynman diagram, rest assured, the entropy law is being expressed somewhere, quite possibly right there in the diagram itself.

Is there anything else you would like to know?


Yes, I'd like you to answer the question I asked.
(Please stop talking about irrelevant stuff like logs- just answer the question I actually asked)
Please calculate the entropy change for the annihilation reaction you showed the diagram for.
(as a hint, I have already told you twice)

I'm really looking forward to you posting the result of the calculation.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Bored chemist

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From a purely black body radiation standpoint (neglecting albedo and emissivity) without its atmosphere the Earth would have a mean surface temp of 255 K or -18.15 C/-0.67 F. This is pretty much 100% from just the incoming solar radiation. The actual measured mean surface temp of Earth is 287 K which is a difference of about 32 K. The sun delivers approximately 783,000,000 terawatt hours of energy to the Earth over the course of the year and all this energy takes us from 3 K (the blackbody temperature of the universe) to 255 K for an increase of 252 K. This means it takes 3,110,000 TWh per year to increase mean global temperature by a single degree K and this is a significant underestimate because the rate at which energy is radiated away increases non-linearly with increasing temperature. So in reality the amount of energy is much higher than this. Now the greenhouse effect has added about 32 K so adjusting for that we get 2,760,000 TWh per year to increase mean global temperature by a single degree K. As of 2011 the world used about 150,000 TWh of energy per year (this counts all possible ways of consuming energy). So even taking into account the greenhouse effect and assuming all of this energy ends up as heat eventually the net increase of Earth's mean surface temperature due to just the actual heat humans produce is on the order of 0.05 K and of course this temperature increase would be basically a one time increase i.e we have to use this much energy each year just to maintain the unnatural extra 0.05 K increase if we stop it goes back to just the plain sun value. Thus, we would have seen the mean surface temperature increase by 0.05 K over pre-industrial values with slight yearly increases tied directly to increases in energy consumption which currently stand at about 3,000 TWh per year or 0.001 K per year.

So the takeaway from that is that if the heat generated by humans was a significant contributor to changes in global temperature than the total change should have been on the order of 0.05 K since say 1880 to today with a change of about 0.001 K per year. (Remembering that we've easily overestimated the impact of energy on temperature.) What we've actually seen is an increase of 0.8 K with yearly increases of about 0.02 K which are somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 times the overestimated values of direct heating by humans. Does human activity directly heat the Earth? Of course it does. Is that effect significant? No it is easily 20 times smaller than the observed changes. Personally I believe the evidence for anthropomorphic climate change but I also understand that the direct heating of the Earth by the human use of energy is not significant.
Thanks for doing the maths for us.
I don't think it will make any difference to Craig, but the rest of us will now accept that the direct effect from heating is small and the big change comes from something else.
Of course, some won't accept that it's the greenhouse effect, even though we have trebled the amount of one of the two biggest greenhouse effect gases (the other is too variable to model well)- but that's a different problem.
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Offline jeffreyH

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Don't stereotype or make sweeping generalisations. They come back to bite you.
Here's a stereotype I read about in the news:

http://www.businessinsider.com/proof-republicans-really-are-dumber-than-democrats-2012-5

I'm not American so I didn't bother to read the link. You are cherry picking parts of post to avoid answering any challenge.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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(Please stop talking about irrelevant stuff like logs- just answer the question I actually asked)
Burning logs is related to the thread topic. Your question is not. Answer it yourself.


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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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I'm not American so I didn't bother to read the link. You are cherry picking parts of post to avoid answering any challenge.
You present no challenge to anyone. Your posts are devoid of useful information.


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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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I don't think it will make any difference to Craig, but the rest of us will now accept that the direct effect from heating is small and the big change comes from something else.
What makes no difference to me is you arguing which part is small and which part is large. I don't care. I only said, they are both factors. They ARE both factors. agyejy proved my point.

The heat is a factor because the extra carbon dioxide helps keep it here. It doesn't just escape into space, so yes, it IS a factor, no matter how small you claim that factor is.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2016 14:29:34 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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The word industry, today, refers to the organised use of labour to make stuff and to provide services.

Before the industrial revolution it was used to refer to working hard.

Industry and technology are separate ideas.
Can't hold your own in a scientific debate, so now you're nitpicking about etymology? Pathetic.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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If you want to have a science forum you will have to be harsh with your allowance of idiocy. It's sort of OK to have a load of simple questions asked by those who have not done any science but this needs to be in it's own section otherwise more advanced discussions will be drowned out by the noise.
Have you even taken one college science course? You don't seem to recognize your own idiocy, hypocrite. Why don't you take your industry vs. technology argument to the kids table instead of drowning out our adult climate change discussion with nonsense?

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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The point is not that the CO2 traps the tiny little bit of heat generated directly by burning fossil fuels. The point is that it traps all heat- including a share of the 15000 times more heat that we get from the sun.
FALSE.

CO2 molecules absorb and re-emit heat, but not necessarily right back in the direction it came from. CO2 molecules aren't stationary, but rather tumble through space. Depending on the orientation of a CO2 molecule at the time of emission, that infrared photon might come back to earth, or it might escape into space. CO2 does NOT trap ALL the heat, just some. More CO2 traps more heat, but still not all of it.

You're a regular geyser of misinformation, aren't you?
« Last Edit: 03/04/2016 14:49:41 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Bored chemist

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(Please stop talking about irrelevant stuff like logs- just answer the question I actually asked)
Burning logs is related to the thread topic. Your question is not. Answer it yourself.

Make up your mind.
You are the one who said entropy is important to the topic and you are the one who introduced the Feynman diagram.
If it's not relevant, why did you do that?
Anyway, since you claim to be such an expert on entropy, and it's a trivial calculation why don't you just answer the question and tell us what the entropy change for the reaction actually is?

Also, I already answered it twice.
I'm just checking if you have any idea what the answer is.
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Offline Bored chemist

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I don't think it will make any difference to Craig, but the rest of us will now accept that the direct effect from heating is small and the big change comes from something else.
What makes no difference to me is you arguing which part is small and which part is large. I don't care. I only said, they are both factors. They ARE both factors. agyejy proved my point.

The heat is a factor because the extra carbon dioxide helps keep it here. It doesn't just escape into space, so yes, it IS a factor, no matter how small you claim that factor is.


You seem to have forgotten what you said in the first place that kicked off the debate.
It's the bit where Tim told you the difference between big an small and you pretended it wasn't.
No, the amount of heat produced directly by human activity is utterly tiny in comparison with the heat budget of nature.
FALSE. The earth's life forms spent hundreds of millions of years taking solar energy OUT of the system. That's what oil and coal are: dead plants and animals.


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Offline Bored chemist

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The point is not that the CO2 traps the tiny little bit of heat generated directly by burning fossil fuels. The point is that it traps all heat- including a share of the 15000 times more heat that we get from the sun.
FALSE.

CO2 molecules absorb and re-emit heat, but not necessarily right back in the direction it came from. CO2 molecules aren't stationary, but rather tumble through space. Depending on the orientation of a CO2 molecule at the time of emission, that infrared photon might come back to earth, or it might escape into space. CO2 does NOT trap ALL the heat, just some. More CO2 traps more heat, but still not all of it.

You're a regular geyser of misinformation, aren't you?
Way to go on missing the point there.
it's as if you do it deliberately.
Anyway, the CO2 traps heat from all sources- not just the tiny bit produced by burning fuels.
So, yes it does trap all heat.
I didn't say it trap "all the heat" that's something you made up and pretended I said.
You really need to stop strawmanning or you will end up looking like this guy
http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07
« Last Edit: 03/04/2016 15:21:45 by Bored chemist »
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Offline agyejy

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What makes no difference to me is you arguing which part is small and which part is large. I don't care. I only said, they are both factors. They ARE both factors. agyejy proved my point.

The heat is a factor because the extra carbon dioxide helps keep it here. It doesn't just escape into space, so yes, it IS a factor, no matter how small you claim that factor is.

You've quite severely missed the point. The numbers I calculated were a very large overestimate. For starters only about 60% of the energy humans use ends up as waste heat. Therefore the numbers I gave are at least two times bigger than they actually are in reality. The real numbers are definitely closer to 0.025 K total and 0.0005 K per year or closer to a factor of 40 than a factor of 20. I purposefully overestimated so badly to conclusively demonstrate that the impact of direct heating is so small that it is literally not measurable. For example try and find a commercially available thermometer with a precision of 0.01 K (or C as they are equivalent) that works above cryogenic temperature ranges. There are several very expensive units designed for cryogenic temperatures that are specifically marketed to scientists but no one would ever use these to measure ambient temperature and if you did they wouldn't be nearly as accurate as when measuring cryogenic temperatures. At best the thermometers used to measure ambient temperatures have an accuracy of 0.1 K (which again is the same as C) so the impact of direct heating due to human energy use literally is not measurable which means scientifically speaking it is completely ignored in all climate models and calculations.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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You seem to have forgotten what you said in the first place that kicked off the debate.
It's the bit where Tim told you the difference between big an small and you pretended it wasn't.
No, the amount of heat produced directly by human activity is utterly tiny in comparison with the heat budget of nature.
FALSE. The earth's life forms spent hundreds of millions of years taking solar energy OUT of the system. That's what oil and coal are: dead plants and animals.
I pretended it wasn't what? The difference between big and small? That statement makes no sense. Do you even think about what you are posting, or do you just rattle off any sort of nonsense you like?

You're wrong. Every lump of coal in the ground represents solar energy that did not enter the atmosphere or warm the ground under a tree, but rather was stored in plants via photosynthesis. After hundreds of millions of years, those dead trees add up to a lot of stored solar energy. Releasing it all at once adds up to something significant ENOUGH. To suggest otherwise is preposterous.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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For starters only about 60% of the energy humans use ends up as waste heat.

The real numbers are definitely closer to 0.025 K total and 0.0005 K per year or closer to a factor of 40 than a factor of 20.
Citation, please.

Oh, never mind:

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/08/26/us-wastes-61-86-of-its-energy/

At any rate, Japanese car companies had several models that got more than 50 mpg, way back in the early 1980's. Now, after two and a half decades of technological development, we can barely squeeze 40 mpg out of a hybrid. Guess who's to blame for that? I'll give you a hint: highly profitable oil companies.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2016 15:40:39 by Craig W. Thomson »