Are climate skeptics right that there is no link between CO2 levels and temperature?

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Offline agyejy

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I want to know why you think there is something to worry us.

That is why YOU think this.

From there we can try to convince each other of our view. But to just pass the buck and avoid doing this means that I will continue to have my view. I think you wish to change my view. To do so will involve putting yourself into the position of possibly being convinced the other way.


He very clearly stated this already. He understands the scientific processes and therefore trusts the what must be several thousand (if not tens of thousands) of qualified climate scientists that have dedicated their lives to the study of climate. The science behind human caused climate change is well established and widely available. In fact it is well established and supported that anyone that disagrees needs a very good reason for that disagreement (and conversely there is no real need to justify agreement beyond trust in the scientific method). Asking someone to justify their belief in the scientific method and the results derived from it is akin to asking them why they believe in gravity.

But by all means if you have specific criticisms concerning the science I am sure they can be addressed. In fact I've been doing just that for quite some time in this thread. Though it could potentially save as all some time if you simply looked for your question here:

https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?f=taxonomy

As it has probably already been addressed.

It is important to remember that temperature (and in my opinion CO2 level) is the effect, not the cause. The cause is redistribution of water, which is necessarily the essence of life. A small, nomadic population can follow the water, but the migration of a large, urban population will be resisted by other large, urban populations. 

It is demonstrably false that CO2 is not the cause of climate change and that has been fairly well established in this thread.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Which areas do you see as having negative effects from a small rise in temperatures?
A small rise in temperature may be no big deal, except where the behavior of plants and animals is strongly linked. That is, pretty much the entire temperate zone. Crop sprouting from seeds, bulbs and tubers is determined by temperature change, but animal migration and reproduction (including birds, bees and wild mammals) is also directed by day length.

A warm spring can produce early flowering that is not consummated by pollination from migratory insects. However those insects that hibernate or hatch in the spring may reach maturinty and die before the migratory insectivorous birds arrive. It's a remarkably delicate balance that gets in and out of kilter from year to year, but a steady trend can produce an unforseeable change, with medium-term potential for crop failure or insect devastation.   

Small changes in temperature can be associated with very large changes in tropical rainfall patterns or seasonal melts in the sub-arctic and mountains. Whilst relatively sophisticated  agronomies like Egypt can cope with a degree of flood variation, more marginal and population-stressed areas in the Indian subcontinent cannot tolerate much change in monsoon patterns.

It is important to remember that temperature (and in my opinion CO2 level) is the effect, not the cause. The cause is redistribution of water, which is necessarily the essence of life. A small, nomadic population can follow the water, but the migration of a large, urban population will be resisted by other large, urban populations.   

Well, to try to get to something more specific, which bits of the world do you see as suffering greatly due to a slightly warmer/wetter or dryer year than last?

Given the normal level of variation of anual climate I don't see the expected changes as anything beyond the scope of this variation. That nature is used to a level of surprise in the weather and will cope.

As to urban populations these do not rely upon the local food production to live they live by international trade. As such they are indeed suffering as a result of the use of food as fuel increasing prices by 70% but that will be the same where ever they go. The supension of international trade due to the restriction of the use of fossil fuel would of course bring very dire consequences.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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I want to know why you think there is something to worry us.

That is why YOU think this.

From there we can try to convince each other of our view. But to just pass the buck and avoid doing this means that I will continue to have my view. I think you wish to change my view. To do so will involve putting yourself into the position of possibly being convinced the other way.


He very clearly stated this already. He understands the scientific processes and therefore trusts the what must be several thousand (if not tens of thousands) of qualified climate scientists that have dedicated their lives to the study of climate. The science behind human caused climate change is well established and widely available. In fact it is well established and supported that anyone that disagrees needs a very good reason for that disagreement (and conversely there is no real need to justify agreement beyond trust in the scientific method). Asking someone to justify their belief in the scientific method and the results derived from it is akin to asking them why they believe in gravity.

But by all means if you have specific criticisms concerning the science I am sure they can be addressed. In fact I've been doing just that for quite some time in this thread. Though it could potentially save as all some time if you simply looked for your question here:

https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?f=taxonomy

As it has probably already been addressed.

It is important to remember that temperature (and in my opinion CO2 level) is the effect, not the cause. The cause is redistribution of water, which is necessarily the essence of life. A small, nomadic population can follow the water, but the migration of a large, urban population will be resisted by other large, urban populations. 

It is demonstrably false that CO2 is not the cause of climate change and that has been fairly well established in this thread.

A couple of years ago I was thrown off another science forum because I pointed out that Greenland was not melting to any great degree. That talk of 660Gt mass loss per year was drivrel.

The last figure I saw in a scientific paper was of 12.9Gt per year anual mass loss of Greenland's ice.

Linking to the not skeptical not science site you love is just the same as go away and read this vast load of gibberish used by other religious types.

This is a science forum. If the science of Global warming cannot be debated here then it something is very wrong.

I ask you to answer the thread about what it would take for you to consider the CAGW hypothesis dead. If your answer is that you need to wait for the high priests of Climate ScienceTM to say so then you are, in this area, not doing science but have moved to religion.

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Offline Bored chemist

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You will understand that not presenting anything which supports your view is not at all persuasive.

This is a science forum. There are people here who are good at science. By presenting the actual arguments you think/say are out there they could be thrashed through. Those who are wrong would be hammered by those in the know.

Your approach is the same as the religious when I challenge them;

Go and read a vastly long winded thing and go away.....


What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?

I want to know why you think there is something to worry us.

That is why YOU think this.

From there we can try to convince each other of our view. But to just pass the buck and avoid doing this means that I will continue to have my view. I think you wish to change my view. To do so will involve putting yourself into the position of possibly being convinced the other way.


Tim, you may remember saying something about the importance of answering question.
Well, it works both ways, as I said
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline agyejy

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Well, to try to get to something more specific, which bits of the world do you see as suffering greatly due to a slightly warmer/wetter or dryer year than last?

Given the normal level of variation of anual climate I don't see the expected changes as anything beyond the scope of this variation. That nature is used to a level of surprise in the weather and will cope.

As to urban populations these do not rely upon the local food production to live they live by international trade. As such they are indeed suffering as a result of the use of food as fuel increasing prices by 70% but that will be the same where ever they go. The supension of international trade due to the restriction of the use of fossil fuel would of course bring very dire consequences.


Characterizing the projected impacts of climate change as slight changes in temperature and rainfall is a grave disservice. Here is a slightly more comprehensive but still brief list of impacts:

http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Climate/Climate_Impacts/ProjectedEffectsGlobalWarming.html

I cursory google search on your part would reveal much more in depth information. That's all I'd do and frankly it isn't my job to do basic research you should have done before ever forming an opinion one way or another.


A couple of years ago I was thrown off another science forum because I pointed out that Greenland was not melting to any great degree. That talk of 660Gt mass loss per year was drivrel.

The last figure I saw in a scientific paper was of 12.9Gt per year anual mass loss of Greenland's ice.


Please source your 660 Gt claim. I cannot find reference to it and I suspect you misunderstood, misremember, or were fed misinformation. Real figures from the relevant scientific literature can be found below:

https://www.skepticalscience.com/greenland-cooling-gaining-ice-intermediate.htm

Quote

Linking to the not skeptical not science site you love is just the same as go away and read this vast load of gibberish used by other religious types.

This is a science forum. If the science of Global warming cannot be debated here then it something is very wrong.

This is how debate happens. Evidence is presented in the form of observations and peer reviewed articles from experts in the field. They and thus anyone that cites them have presented their evidence and made their case. It is now your turn to respond with specific criticisms of the already presented evidence.

Quote

I ask you to answer the thread about what it would take for you to consider the CAGW hypothesis dead. If your answer is that you need to wait for the high priests of Climate ScienceTM to say so then you are, in this area, not doing science but have moved to religion.


This is ridiculous. Trusting experts and peer reviewed science is not the same as religion. It would take an extraordinary amount of evidence in the form of observations to disprove anthropomorphic climate change but only because there is an extraordinary amount of evidence supporting it. Evidence that is by and large in the public domain and freely accessible. I don't have the time, expertise, or resources to do an in depth study of the climate but I can judge the credibility of climate research by looking at the data and arguments presented.

Apparently you have no interest in actual rational discourse on the matter based on your blanket dismissal of climate experts and their experimental verification.

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Offline alancalverd

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Well, to try to get to something more specific, which bits of the world do you see as suffering greatly due to a slightly warmer/wetter or dryer year than last?

Given the normal level of variation of anual climate I don't see the expected changes as anything beyond the scope of this variation. That nature is used to a level of surprise in the weather and will cope.


One year makes little difference. Indeed a self-styled climate scientist would dismiss it as "weather". But it's worth looking at phenomena like tree lines. Even in temperate areas like western Ireland, Wales and Scotland, there's a marked change in vegetation with altitude. Normal temperature lapse rate is around 3 degrees per 1000 ft, and we find a significant variation in natural vegetation and crop yelds over 500 ft, so a remorseless change of the order of 1.5 degrees over 100 years would indeed make a significant change in the agriculture of these islands.

Freezing water is hugely important. A slow freeze produces large ice crystals that can damage unadapted living tissue. The critical mean winter temperature range between alpine and lowland crops is only about 2 degrees. Again, vegetation will recover over one or two years, but a small shift in mean winter temperatures in these islands can alter the longtgerm viability of many species not only of plants but also insects.

Oddly, it's the temperate/sub arctic areas, what we consider stable, fertile and productive land like the British Isles and Northern Europe, that would see the most dramatic changes as the snow line retreats. We have already seen an increase in English wine production since 1950, not just a matter of taste and fashion, but a significant northward march of the potential for producing white and now even red wine in my lifetime. It may even return to Scotland before I'm too old to drink Scottish champagne.

Several species of wood-boring beetles have appeared in southern England from warmer climates. Previously, occasional imports in bulk timber did not survive their first winter, but the lack of freezing conditions (and, admittedly, the increase in domestic heating) have turned these curiosities into pests.

You might care to speculate on the mean isotherm around, say, the Sahara desert, or consider what would happen in India if three successive monsoons failed. Or read up on Icelandic history - marginal agriculture that has flipped from boom to bust a few times.
helping to stem the tide of ignorance

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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You will understand that not presenting anything which supports your view is not at all persuasive.

This is a science forum. There are people here who are good at science. By presenting the actual arguments you think/say are out there they could be thrashed through. Those who are wrong would be hammered by those in the know.

Your approach is the same as the religious when I challenge them;

Go and read a vastly long winded thing and go away.....


What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?

I want to know why you think there is something to worry us.

That is why YOU think this.

From there we can try to convince each other of our view. But to just pass the buck and avoid doing this means that I will continue to have my view. I think you wish to change my view. To do so will involve putting yourself into the position of possibly being convinced the other way.


Tim, you may remember saying something about the importance of answering question.
Well, it works both ways, as I said
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

I have studied it.

You  have, I hope, studied it.

Can you cite some actual science that says that there is a significant danger of something significant happeneing? Some sort of problem that would justify all the panic? That would do as a start.

But, I asked first, so why do you think there is something to worry about?

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Well, to try to get to something more specific, which bits of the world do you see as suffering greatly due to a slightly warmer/wetter or dryer year than last?

Given the normal level of variation of anual climate I don't see the expected changes as anything beyond the scope of this variation. That nature is used to a level of surprise in the weather and will cope.

As to urban populations these do not rely upon the local food production to live they live by international trade. As such they are indeed suffering as a result of the use of food as fuel increasing prices by 70% but that will be the same where ever they go. The supension of international trade due to the restriction of the use of fossil fuel would of course bring very dire consequences.


Characterizing the projected impacts of climate change as slight changes in temperature and rainfall is a grave disservice. Here is a slightly more comprehensive but still brief list of impacts:

http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Climate/Climate_Impacts/ProjectedEffectsGlobalWarming.html

I cursory google search on your part would reveal much more in depth information. That's all I'd do and frankly it isn't my job to do basic research you should have done before ever forming an opinion one way or another.


A couple of years ago I was thrown off another science forum because I pointed out that Greenland was not melting to any great degree. That talk of 660Gt mass loss per year was drivrel.

The last figure I saw in a scientific paper was of 12.9Gt per year anual mass loss of Greenland's ice.


Please source your 660 Gt claim. I cannot find reference to it and I suspect you misunderstood, misremember, or were fed misinformation. Real figures from the relevant scientific literature can be found below:

https://www.skepticalscience.com/greenland-cooling-gaining-ice-intermediate.htm

Quote

Linking to the not skeptical not science site you love is just the same as go away and read this vast load of gibberish used by other religious types.

This is a science forum. If the science of Global warming cannot be debated here then it something is very wrong.

This is how debate happens. Evidence is presented in the form of observations and peer reviewed articles from experts in the field. They and thus anyone that cites them have presented their evidence and made their case. It is now your turn to respond with specific criticisms of the already presented evidence.

Quote

I ask you to answer the thread about what it would take for you to consider the CAGW hypothesis dead. If your answer is that you need to wait for the high priests of Climate ScienceTM to say so then you are, in this area, not doing science but have moved to religion.


This is ridiculous. Trusting experts and peer reviewed science is not the same as religion. It would take an extraordinary amount of evidence in the form of observations to disprove anthropomorphic climate change but only because there is an extraordinary amount of evidence supporting it. Evidence that is by and large in the public domain and freely accessible. I don't have the time, expertise, or resources to do an in depth study of the climate but I can judge the credibility of climate research by looking at the data and arguments presented.

Apparently you have no interest in actual rational discourse on the matter based on your blanket dismissal of climate experts and their experimental verification.

I will not look at any link you post unless you quote the actual bit you wish to refer to. I suggest that if you do want to look at a specific issue within the whole AGW thing such as Greenland's ice loss you start a thread about it so we can keep the thread in some way concise.

Your attitude is to close down any discussion of any herasey against the global warming religion.

If you don't wish to take part don't.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Well, to try to get to something more specific, which bits of the world do you see as suffering greatly due to a slightly warmer/wetter or dryer year than last?

Given the normal level of variation of anual climate I don't see the expected changes as anything beyond the scope of this variation. That nature is used to a level of surprise in the weather and will cope.


One year makes little difference. Indeed a self-styled climate scientist would dismiss it as "weather". But it's worth looking at phenomena like tree lines. Even in temperate areas like western Ireland, Wales and Scotland, there's a marked change in vegetation with altitude. Normal temperature lapse rate is around 3 degrees per 1000 ft, and we find a significant variation in natural vegetation and crop yelds over 500 ft, so a remorseless change of the order of 1.5 degrees over 100 years would indeed make a significant change in the agriculture of these islands.

Well, yes but there is no sudden shock effect where any significant trouble happens.

Quote
Freezing water is hugely important. A slow freeze produces large ice crystals that can damage unadapted living tissue. The critical mean winter temperature range between alpine and lowland crops is only about 2 degrees. Again, vegetation will recover over one or two years, but a small shift in mean winter temperatures in these islands can alter the longtgerm viability of many species not only of plants but also insects.

Oddly, it's the temperate/sub arctic areas, what we consider stable, fertile and productive land like the British Isles and Northern Europe, that would see the most dramatic changes as the snow line retreats. We have already seen an increase in English wine production since 1950, not just a matter of taste and fashion, but a significant northward march of the potential for producing white and now even red wine in my lifetime. It may even return to Scotland before I'm too old to drink Scottish champagne.

Yes, good isn't it?

Quote
Several species of wood-boring beetles have appeared in southern England from warmer climates. Previously, occasional imports in bulk timber did not survive their first winter, but the lack of freezing conditions (and, admittedly, the increase in domestic heating) have turned these curiosities into pests.

OK, there are some very tiny, in comparison with the good bits, troubles with getting a warmer climate. They do manage to survive it in France though....

Quote
You might care to speculate on the mean isotherm around, say, the Sahara desert, or consider what would happen in India if three successive monsoons failed. Or read up on Icelandic history - marginal agriculture that has flipped from boom to bust a few times.

Yes, the present warm, wet conditions are helping a lot. Obviously the Monsoon is very important and unstable. Not having petrol to pump the wells in the dry years is a bad thing though. Atleast it is if you think humans dying is bad.

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Offline agyejy

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I will not look at any link you post unless you quote the actual bit you wish to refer to. I suggest that if you do want to look at a specific issue within the whole AGW thing such as Greenland's ice loss you start a thread about it so we can keep the thread in some way concise.

Well for starters you brought it up not me. You made a claim and I asked you to back that claim. Telling me that you won't bother to read any evidence I post and that you actually can't be bothered to actually support your claim paints a pretty clear picture of your willingness to actually debate anything. Beyond that this thread has in general become a catch all for criticisms of climate change science so there is really no compelling reason to split of the discussion at all.

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Your attitude is to close down any discussion of any herasey against the global warming religion.

If you don't wish to take part don't.


The only person closing down discussions here is you. You refuse to read the evidence provided to you. You denigrate large sections of the scientific community for no reason and with no evidence. You seem to be unable to distinguish between faith and being persuaded by evidence and reason. Your accusations that support of climate change amounts to irrational faith are very hypocritical given your refusal to even consider the evidence.

Additionally, I request that in the future you cease using the term global warming and definitely drop the religion part. Instead I would ask that you use the accepted terms global climate change or just climate change for short. Global warming is a mischaracterization of the science which is why it was changed. Given that I graciously agreed to not use the term denier because you find it rude I'm sure you can find it within yourself to make the adjustment because I find the terminology you use similarly rude.

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Offline Bored chemist

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You will understand that not presenting anything which supports your view is not at all persuasive.

This is a science forum. There are people here who are good at science. By presenting the actual arguments you think/say are out there they could be thrashed through. Those who are wrong would be hammered by those in the know.

Your approach is the same as the religious when I challenge them;

Go and read a vastly long winded thing and go away.....


What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?

I want to know why you think there is something to worry us.

That is why YOU think this.

From there we can try to convince each other of our view. But to just pass the buck and avoid doing this means that I will continue to have my view. I think you wish to change my view. To do so will involve putting yourself into the position of possibly being convinced the other way.


Tim, you may remember saying something about the importance of answering question.
Well, it works both ways, as I said
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

I have studied it.

You  have, I hope, studied it.

Can you cite some actual science that says that there is a significant danger of something significant happeneing? Some sort of problem that would justify all the panic? That would do as a start.

But, I asked first, so why do you think there is something to worry about?

this is getting tiresome.
I think there is something to worry about because a whole bunch of people who know about it think there is a problem
And also, while much of the science on which they base that isn't my field, some bits of it are.
Notably the (so called) greenhouse effect.

It's not clear why you think that all the climatologists are wrong.
However, perhaps you would like to answer my question.
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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You will understand that not presenting anything which supports your view is not at all persuasive.

This is a science forum. There are people here who are good at science. By presenting the actual arguments you think/say are out there they could be thrashed through. Those who are wrong would be hammered by those in the know.

Your approach is the same as the religious when I challenge them;

Go and read a vastly long winded thing and go away.....


What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?

I want to know why you think there is something to worry us.

That is why YOU think this.

From there we can try to convince each other of our view. But to just pass the buck and avoid doing this means that I will continue to have my view. I think you wish to change my view. To do so will involve putting yourself into the position of possibly being convinced the other way.


Tim, you may remember saying something about the importance of answering question.
Well, it works both ways, as I said
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

I have studied it.

You  have, I hope, studied it.

Can you cite some actual science that says that there is a significant danger of something significant happeneing? Some sort of problem that would justify all the panic? That would do as a start.

But, I asked first, so why do you think there is something to worry about?

this is getting tiresome.
I think there is something to worry about because a whole bunch of people who know about it think there is a problem
And also, while much of the science on which they base that isn't my field, some bits of it are.
Notably the (so called) greenhouse effect.

It's not clear why you think that all the climatologists are wrong.
However, perhaps you would like to answer my question.
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

Here is my position;

That the actual science produced by all but a very few, well M.Mann, says that there is nothing to worry about, that temperature increases will not be much, or much in the way of trouble and that there will generally be benefits from a slightly warmer world.

If you want me to think that there is indeed stuff to worry about what is it? And please don't just link to a alarmist blog but actually, in your own words actually say what it is you think is the threat. Otherwise I will have to consider you a sheep, not a thinking person.

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Offline agyejy

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Here is my position;

That the actual science produced by all but a very few, well M.Mann, says that there is nothing to worry about, that temperature increases will not be much, or much in the way of trouble and that there will generally be benefits from a slightly warmer world.

Citation required.

Quote

If you want me to think that there is indeed stuff to worry about what is it? And please don't just link to a alarmist blog but actually, in your own words actually say what it is you think is the threat. Otherwise I will have to consider you a sheep, not a thinking person.


That restriction is frankly idiotic. The Bored Chemist is not qualified to make predictions about future climatic changes and thus relies on the work of actual experts. There is no compelling reason for anyone here to paraphrase the work of climate scientists to you. Doing so can only potentially introduce errors and frankly it would take far too much time.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Well, I'm not qualified to speak on most of the issues related to climate change but I think straightforward common sense is enough to undermine Tim's complacency.

Much of the time, farmers in much of the world struggle to grow enough food.
Sometimes the weather is too dry and  sometimes it's too wet for the things they have planted.
That last bit is an important aspect but it's often overlooked.
So we get people saying "so what if it's a bit warmer in the UK- the French do OK and their weather is warmer."
Clearly that's true- but it ignores the fact that the French farmers plant different crops and at different times compared to the UK farmers.

And they can do that because they all know what weather to typically expect.

But the problem is that increased energy input to the Earth's atmosphere will create more extreme weather and make the prediction of " typical" weather much more uncertain.
So the farmers will more often face the problem of having planted the "wrong" crops.
There are similar issues with flooding, drought cold and so on.

Basically, messing with the weather makes it more difficult to feed ourselves.

Obviously there are also issues of property damage and people simply dying from the heat or cold.

To ignore those risks  and pretend that we can maintain "business as usual" is morally bankrupt.


And,once again...
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline puppypower

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There is a link between CO2 levels and temperature. However, the assumed assumptions, about this link,  appear to be exaggerated, as inferred by the observation that all the computers models are all predicting a temperature change that is too high. The greenhouse is not getting as hot as the assumptions predict. 

The windows of a greenhouse have two sides. However, only one side of the window is included in the assumptions. In the spring, a greenhouse allows the warmth from the sun to become trapped inside the greenhouse. However, say you are using a greenhouse to grow a cool weather plants, like lettuce, in the summer. The windows used in that greenhouse will allow light to pass, but will also help insulate the lettuce from the IR of the summer heat. These use thermal pane windows. 

Quote
During summers, thermal pane windows block heat entering into the house, and during winters, heat from inside is prevented from going outside. This helps in saving the energy used to cool and heat the house.

Over 50% of the energy from the sun comes to the earth as IR, which is the wavelength that CO2 blocks. The current assumption only traps the heat from the surface of the earth; spring green house. The assumptions appear to assume these windows are   transparent to the solar IR that drives the heat cycle of the earth. It is assumed impossible to grow lettuce in the summer in their greenhouse. If you use cheap windows, in your greenhouse, you will get what you pay for.

Water is a greenhouse gas and works using the principles of thermal pane windows; two way. Clouds will cause shade from the summer sun, which cools the surface of the earth. While clouds will also trap the heat on the earth's surface, during the night, when the sun is gone. This can prevent frost on crops. CO2 cannot tell the difference between solar IR and earth IR and will block both. Below a useful graph of the solar energy and the earth's surface energy that the two way windows of the greenhouse affect will face.



 
 

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Here is my position;

That the actual science produced by all but a very few, well M.Mann, says that there is nothing to worry about, that temperature increases will not be much, or much in the way of trouble and that there will generally be benefits from a slightly warmer world.

Citation required.

Quote

If you want me to think that there is indeed stuff to worry about what is it? And please don't just link to a alarmist blog but actually, in your own words actually say what it is you think is the threat. Otherwise I will have to consider you a sheep, not a thinking person.


That restriction is frankly idiotic. The Bored Chemist is not qualified to make predictions about future climatic changes and thus relies on the work of actual experts. There is no compelling reason for anyone here to paraphrase the work of climate scientists to you. Doing so can only potentially introduce errors and frankly it would take far too much time.

1, I do not need to have a citation for my own position!!! I can think for myself even if you cannot!

2, Appealing to authority is not, normally, in science, a very convincing way to support an argument.

Given I am asking for BChemist's reasons for believing what he says he does or indeed yours what is wrong with you answering?

It is the same as getting any reply to a question from a Born again Christian. Avoidance, appeal to authority and the go away and read this load of very long winded drivel.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Well, I'm not qualified to speak on most of the issues related to climate change but I think straightforward common sense is enough to undermine Tim's complacency.

Much of the time, farmers in much of the world struggle to grow enough food.
Sometimes the weather is too dry and  sometimes it's too wet for the things they have planted.
That last bit is an important aspect but it's often overlooked.
So we get people saying "so what if it's a bit warmer in the UK- the French do OK and their weather is warmer."
Clearly that's true- but it ignores the fact that the French farmers plant different crops and at different times compared to the UK farmers.

And they can do that because they all know what weather to typically expect.

But the problem is that increased energy input to the Earth's atmosphere will create more extreme weather and make the prediction of " typical" weather much more uncertain.
So the farmers will more often face the problem of having planted the "wrong" crops.
There are similar issues with flooding, drought cold and so on.

Basically, messing with the weather makes it more difficult to feed ourselves.

Obviously there are also issues of property damage and people simply dying from the heat or cold.

To ignore those risks  and pretend that we can maintain "business as usual" is morally bankrupt.


And,once again...
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

Thank you for your reply.

I take it you see increased variability of weather as the main problem with climate change.

My reply to this is that so far whilst the models say that a warmer world is a more extreme world there has been no suchh increase in varibility. That infact we have had very unusually stable weather over the last couple of decades.

Further, in the past, before trains etc, there were very often local famines. These very often attracted little attention from the chattering classes, they did not make the news because they were just too common. The main problem was that local shortages could not be made good from regions only a few hundred miles away due to the impossibility of transporting food across such distances.

Today the enriched CO2 atmosphere we have causes greatly increased plant growth and the ability to use the power of fossil fuel to transport our huge surpluses of food all over the world has made acute famine, in the politically stable world, a thing of the past.

Obviously the use of food as fuel causes many millions of deaths per year through increased food prices and acts to maintain the poverty of the world's poor by taking the money they would use to send their children to school. Surely a crime against humanity.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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What happened to my thread about CO2 making the Earth greener?

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Offline agyejy

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1, I do not need to have a citation for my own position!!! I can think for myself even if you cannot!

2, Appealing to authority is not, normally, in science, a very convincing way to support an argument.

This:

Quote

That the actual science produced by all but a very few, well M.Mann, says that there is nothing to worry about

Is a statement of fact which you need to support via citation. Where are the articles, what do they actually say, are there rebuttals, did they even make it into reputable peer reviewed climatology journals?

As for your second point you clearly don't understand what it means to make an appeal to authority:

Quote
Also Known as: Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam

Description of Appeal to Authority

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.
This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.

From: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Climate Scientists are obviously qualified experts on the climate of the Earth. Therefore making reference to climate scientists to support an argument about climate change is not an appeal to authority by definition.

Quote
Given I am asking for BChemist's reasons for believing what he says he does or indeed yours what is wrong with you answering?

The problem lies not with answering but you're ridiculous restrictions on what kind of answers you'll accept.

Quote

It is the same as getting any reply to a question from a Born again Christian. Avoidance, appeal to authority and the go away and read this load of very long winded drivel.

Resorting to insults now I see. I guess if you can call me a religious nut I can call you a denier.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Quote from: puppypower
There is a link between CO2 levels and temperature. However, the assumed assumptions, about this link,  appear to be exaggerated, as inferred by the observation that all the computers models are all predicting a temperature change that is too high. The greenhouse is not getting as hot as the assumptions predict. 

The windows of a greenhouse have two sides. However, only one side of the window is included in the assumptions. In the spring, a greenhouse allows the warmth from the sun to become trapped inside the greenhouse. However, say you are using a greenhouse to grow a cool weather plants, like lettuce, in the summer. The windows used in that greenhouse will allow light to pass, but will also help insulate the lettuce from the IR of the summer heat. These use thermal pane windows. 

Quote
During summers, thermal pane windows block heat entering into the house, and during winters, heat from inside is prevented from going outside. This helps in saving the energy used to cool and heat the house.

Over 50% of the energy from the sun comes to the earth as IR, which is the wavelength that CO2 blocks. The current assumption only traps the heat from the surface of the earth; spring green house. The assumptions appear to assume these windows are   transparent to the solar IR that drives the heat cycle of the earth. It is assumed impossible to grow lettuce in the summer in their greenhouse. If you use cheap windows, in your greenhouse, you will get what you pay for.

Water is a greenhouse gas and works using the principles of thermal pane windows; two way. Clouds will cause shade from the summer sun, which cools the surface of the earth. While clouds will also trap the heat on the earth's surface, during the night, when the sun is gone. This can prevent frost on crops. CO2 cannot tell the difference between solar IR and earth IR and will block both. Below a useful graph of the solar energy and the earth's surface energy that the two way windows of the greenhouse affect will face.

We've already been over why this is wrong. Please listen so that you can learn and not make sure silly mistakes:

Over 50% of the energy that comes from the sun, that reaches the earth, is in the form of infrared; IR. Since CO2 is sensitive to IR, doesn't that mean the CO2 will also trap heat in space; CO2 will keep some of the solar IR heat out in space?

As an analogy, water is also a very important greenhouse gas.  A cloudy night in the fall will prevent frost, due to the greenhouse affect trapping heat.

If you look at a cloud of water. A cloud can block and reflect solar energy entering the earth, away from the surface. A cloud gives us shade so it feel cooler. Water can also trap heat at night, so there is no frost on cool fall nights.

If we have a dry day, more solar heat will reach the surface, while at night the lower water content in the air allows the heat to escape faster; desert. The greenhouse gas, water, creates a two way affect. I would expect the same of CO2. 

A one way greenhouse assumption of CO2; only traps heat in, could explain why all the computer model predictions are always higher than experimental. They appear to assume CO2 can only trap heat in, but not keep heat out, like water does. If the models are 100-1200% to high in terms of temperature predictions, the trap out affect, appears to be very significant.

The affect should be similar to thermal pane glass. This keeps the heat out in the summer and it also keeps the heat in during the winter. It blocks IR with no direction preferences. It appears the greenhouse affect of CO2 makes use of thermo pane glass.

https://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/kids/basics/today/greenhouse-effect.html

The most basic of basic things about the greenhouse effect is that visible light from the Sun is absorbed by the surface of the Earth and then reemitted by the surface as infrared light. This is the infrared light that is trapped by clouds and greenhouse gases. No reputable climate scientist would ever make the mistake of assuming that greenhouse gases only absorb IR light coming from the surface.

The reason we call this the greenhouse effect is because this is exactly how greenhouses work. The glass of the greenhouse lets in visible light. The stuff in the greenhouse absorbs the visible light and emits IR light. The IR light is then trapped inside the greenhouse by the glass because the glass is much more reflective to IR than visible light. In short, visible light comes in and is converted to IR light which can't get out.

In short a greenhouse that lets in any direct sunlight will always be at a higher temperature than the area outside of it unless it has some form of air conditioner. Normal houses get around this by shading the windows so direct sunlight doesn't get into the house. Which means less heat is produced through the absorption of visible light.



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Offline Bored chemist

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Well, I'm not qualified to speak on most of the issues related to climate change but I think straightforward common sense is enough to undermine Tim's complacency.

Much of the time, farmers in much of the world struggle to grow enough food.
Sometimes the weather is too dry and  sometimes it's too wet for the things they have planted.
That last bit is an important aspect but it's often overlooked.
So we get people saying "so what if it's a bit warmer in the UK- the French do OK and their weather is warmer."
Clearly that's true- but it ignores the fact that the French farmers plant different crops and at different times compared to the UK farmers.

And they can do that because they all know what weather to typically expect.

But the problem is that increased energy input to the Earth's atmosphere will create more extreme weather and make the prediction of " typical" weather much more uncertain.
So the farmers will more often face the problem of having planted the "wrong" crops.
There are similar issues with flooding, drought cold and so on.

Basically, messing with the weather makes it more difficult to feed ourselves.

Obviously there are also issues of property damage and people simply dying from the heat or cold.

To ignore those risks  and pretend that we can maintain "business as usual" is morally bankrupt.


And,once again...
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

Thank you for your reply.

I take it you see increased variability of weather as the main problem with climate change.
 

Then you need to learn to read.
And,once again...
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline puppypower

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One problem with science is, science is beholden to others for its resources and funding. There are very few scientists who afford their own resources, so they are beholden to nobody. When one is beholden, truth does not always win out over necessity. One has to weigh the options. For example, a scientist working for a tobacco company will find it necessary to go along with the company line about cigarettes. This is part of being a good company man. In fact, in that company, a consensus of science will form based on the person who writes the checks. The same is true in climate science, which is funded by left wing priorities. One will expect the consensus to follow the money and needs of the deep pockets.

If someone like Trump becomes President of the USA, he may well alter the funding priorities when it comes to climate science. What you all see are many scientists changing their tune, based on the new funding priorities. It is like leaving cigarettes for oil, now oil is the best; new company consensus.

As an example, of mercenary science, which may have well been a trial ballon, consider the science of homosexuality. I am not making any value judgement, I am jus looking at how science is behaving. Today, you will not be able to find any science that does not blow warm air up the skirt of this issue. Any science that does not go along is taboo and will be deemed hate science; instead of denier science used for climate change. This is not how science is supposed to work. One can't come to the truth this way. This assumes truth is important to science.

If what is allowed to be studied and publish is decided for in advance, the layman might get the impression the science is settled. In truth, it is about political pressure and who has the resources; carrot and stick, deciding the consensus in mercenary science. Real science is not about catering to politics, it is about being objective to all the possibilities. This is not easy when science is beholden; carrot and stick. With climate science, the carrot is a lot of funding, while the stick is peer pressure for suggesting an alternative outside the politics.

To me, since it is important for science to come to the truth, I would split the resources in half and give half to each POV; pro and con. Allow both sides to give it their best, so we can come to the truth, independent of political pressure. This would allow career needs to correspond with unspoken hunches, so we can get to the truth.

I commend those who look at science as the search for truth, in nature, and not just a career path or company politics. Many had to work in the underground, at their own peril and expense. This is where we find the truth.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2016 12:25:23 by puppypower »

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Offline agyejy

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One problem with science is, science is beholden to others for its resources and funding. There are very few scientists who afford their own resources, so they are beholden to nobody. When one is beholden, truth does not always win out over necessity. One has to weigh the options. For example, a scientist working for a tobacco company will find it necessary to go along with the company line about cigarettes. This is part of being a good company man. In fact, in that company, a consensus of science will form based on the person who writes the checks. The same is true in climate science, which is funded by left wing priorities. One will expect the consensus to follow the money and needs of the deep pockets.

If someone like Trump becomes President of the USA, he may well alter the funding priorities when it comes to climate science. What you all see are many scientists changing their tune, based on the new funding priorities. It is like leaving cigarettes for oil, now oil is the best; new company consensus.

As an example, of mercenary science, which may have well been a trial ballon, consider the science of homosexuality. I am not making any value judgement, I am jus looking at how science is behaving. Today, you will not be able to find any science that does not blow warm air up the skirt of this issue. Any science that does not go along is taboo and will be deemed hate science; instead of denier science used for climate change. This is not how science is supposed to work. One can't come to the truth this way. This assumes truth is important to science.

If what is allowed to be studied and publish is decided for in advance, the layman might get the impression the science is settled. In truth, it is about political pressure and who has the resources; carrot and stick, deciding the consensus in mercenary science. Real science is not about catering to politics, it is about being objective to all the possibilities. This is not easy when science is beholden; carrot and stick. With climate science, the carrot is a lot of funding, while the stick is peer pressure for suggesting an alternative outside the politics.

To me, since it is important for science to come to the truth, I would split the resources in half and give half to each POV; pro and con. Allow both sides to give it their best, so we can come to the truth, independent of political pressure. This would allow career needs to correspond with unspoken hunches, so we can get to the truth.

I commend those who look at science as the search for truth, in nature, and not just a career path or company politics. Many had to work in the underground, at their own peril and expense. This is where we find the truth.

Well you've demonstrated a complete lack of understanding about how government funding of science works in countries that aren't repressive. I'll give you a hint the decisions on most of the scientists and projects that eventually get funded aren't made by any elected official. There are simply too many of them for that to ever be reasonable. Generally agencies with scientific advisory boards are given some money and those agencies decide where the money goes. People get positions in those agencies based mainly on their credentials and conflicts of interest are generally monitored. These agencies are fairly well insulated from any lobbying pressure. Furthermore, there literally was no political pressure behind climate science when it was first established. In fact there was, and continues to be, a large amount of lobbying against it. Furthermore, we're talking about scientists from many different countries. Countries that don't generally get along. Countries that would love nothing more than to one up one another by showing that their opponents have been lying. If global climate change was being falsified by western countries you can bet that China and probably India would be saying so very loudly. Those two countries in particular have absolutely nothing to gain and a very lot to lose going forward. You also seem to have no idea how the peer review process works or how a consensus is reached.

Oh and if you have to say you aren't making a value judgement when making a statement that should be a giant red flag that what you are about to say is potentially prejudiced. If you think you aren't prejudiced but still fell the need to say it then you probably need to reevaluate your position.

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Offline puppypower

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Oh and if you have to say you aren't making a value judgement when making a statement that should be a giant red flag that what you are about to say is potentially prejudiced. If you think you aren't prejudiced but still fell the need to say it then you probably need to reevaluate your position.

Where I said, I was not making a value judgement, was about the issue of homosexuality. However, I was making a value judgment about how certain directions of research, on this topic, have become taboo. Science is supposed to be neutral and willing to look at all sides. This example was to show how political pressure, can influence funding and possible research. This allows one to dictate the preponderance of data, for forming a consensus. Science can only infer based on the hard evidence that is available. One way to trick this system, is by not allowing some data to ever see the light of day; taboo research.

Another politically charged example was stem cell research. In this case, a conservative political view was able to influence the funding to this area of science. The result is the allowed research can only generate a range of possible data, which defaults the consensus, to only a segment of research. Beyond that it become only opinion, since the hard data is lacking. If one was pro-stem cell, since can't show any direct evidence, but may have to skate around, you are a denier to the layman. Common sense is not enough.

Manmade global warming and climate change are even more politically charged and divided. I bet you, I can ask people their political orientation, and infer their position of this subject, and be right 90% of the time. Culture is not that science literate to be so opinionated on climate science.  You will no longer see as much money going into coal, anymore, since the current administration ties coal politically to climate change, making it taboo and a dinosaur. 

I agree with you, that much of science funding is neutral. One reason is, most research is often abstract to the layman and does not impact people's emotions because of media or political analysis. But when any area of science achieves a level of political emotional appeal, this will impact the funding process. Politics can expand funding or cause it to dry up, compared to nonpolitical science, which will stay flat. The emotion used for manmade global warming is fear, which is why it appeals to the layman. This is the strongest emotion and can be used to trigger anyone to make things political.

Another example, common to construction industries, is they may have to do environmental impact studies. This is science that is mandated. There is a subjective element driving an objective endeavor. The government will not fund science to refute the premises of their regulations. That is a valid area of science. If you tried on your own expense, you would need lawyers, who are not scientists to act a middlemen. Real science is supposed to look under all the rocks to come to the truth, unhindered by the subjective areas of study.

Even in the military, certain weapon designs will get more money, for their science and R&D, compared to parallel one's. This is not always based on merit, but often on a quid quo pro system. Many of the people who benefit by this system are scared of Trump being president, since he has threatened to place science priority in the hands of Generals and Admirals, who may quite well see a different set of priorities for the science.

The fear induction, used by the politics of manmade global warming, is not being addressed by sciences of the mind; psychology. This induce fear  is the portal for the layman and climate change science. If you look at terrorism, this is also based on an induced fear. More people will die slipping on a bar of soap in the shower than terrorism in the USA, yet terrorism is given thousand time more funding. The priority of funding, in turn, makes it feel like a larger threat than the bar of soap in terms of the numbers. You would not get anywhere arguing more money is needed of sth science of soap in showers, comparing to terrorism. The politics will never give you that edge. It is not always about science. You are better off going with the terrorism consensus of fear, and maybe diverting a trickle of your funding to soap.

In terms of global warming, each time the model made a prediction, to fuel the fear, and the prediction did not pan out, why isn't the fear downgraded? The fear is needed for the politics of funding. If the fear was downsized, priories might change. What happens instead is a doubly down of the fear, with theatrics like a global summit. The trick of the political optics to make people assume the leaders know something. This is not science, but more like magic.

I am hoping Trump will change priorities by dispelling the fear that has been created. He should keep funding going, but balance it out to both sides of the issue, so a new consensus can form on balance data that can;t be seen as political. One will see the mercenary scientists jumping ship, since it will be OK to do so.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 13:29:56 by puppypower »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Manmade global warming and climate change are even more politically charged and divided. I bet you, I can ask people their political orientation, and infer their position of this subject, and be right 90% of the time. Culture is not that science literate to be so opinionated on climate science.
Indeed, and the political side that doesn't "believe" in AGW is the one that explicitly opposes teaching critical thinking in schools.
What does that tell you?

If yo were right about the idea that only the "politically supported" science got funding then there  wouldn't be  scienticic reasearch on both sides- but there is.
So your idea is wrong.
But seeing that requires critical thinking...
 And this "To me, since it is important for science to come to the truth, I would split the resources in half and give half to each POV; pro and con. Allow both sides to give it their best, so we can come to the truth, independent of political pressure." is obviously stupid for two reasons.
Firstly, why give 50% to each? If there were two research groups : one believes in unicorns and it trying to save them from extinction, and the other is trying to do the same for giant pandas, would you allocate the same resources to both?

But the bigger problem is what you are proposing to do is fund the antithesis of science.
In true science there are no groups who are "for" or "against" AGW. There are groups trying to find out the truth.
Just fund those and we will actually get an honest answer.


Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Well, I'm not qualified to speak on most of the issues related to climate change but I think straightforward common sense is enough to undermine Tim's complacency.

Much of the time, farmers in much of the world struggle to grow enough food.
Sometimes the weather is too dry and  sometimes it's too wet for the things they have planted.
That last bit is an important aspect but it's often overlooked.
So we get people saying "so what if it's a bit warmer in the UK- the French do OK and their weather is warmer."
Clearly that's true- but it ignores the fact that the French farmers plant different crops and at different times compared to the UK farmers.

And they can do that because they all know what weather to typically expect.

But the problem is that increased energy input to the Earth's atmosphere will create more extreme weather and make the prediction of " typical" weather much more uncertain.
So the farmers will more often face the problem of having planted the "wrong" crops.
There are similar issues with flooding, drought cold and so on.

Basically, messing with the weather makes it more difficult to feed ourselves.

Obviously there are also issues of property damage and people simply dying from the heat or cold.

To ignore those risks  and pretend that we can maintain "business as usual" is morally bankrupt.


And,once again...
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

Thank you for your reply.

I take it you see increased variability of weather as the main problem with climate change.
 

Then you need to learn to read.
And,once again...
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

Crickey this is hard work!

If you don't see extreme weather as the most dangerous thing about AGW what is the big issue, in your view?

I want to understand your view because you want me to change the way I live. You think it is wrong that we use fossil fuel to provide power. That this will cause problems. I am asking you what problems you think it will actually cause and you get extremely evaisive.

Once you have told me what it is you feel is the issue we can look at it but untill then we cannot discuss anything of substance.

I find this situation very common amongst those on the alarmist side. That they will adamantly tell me that we are in a dire situation but when pressed for details of the impending doom they run away. Is it that they actually don't want to look at the numbers but just want something to panic about? That the cult of the dooms day event is more important than any sort of truth?

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Offline Bored chemist

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I see the increased variability as something so obviously bad the the fact that I'm not qualified to discuss it professionally in detail as a non-issue.
However, exactly which bits of it are worst isn't really important, since it's pretty much all bad.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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I see the increased variability as something so obviously bad the the fact that I'm not qualified to discuss it professionally in detail as a non-issue.
However, exactly which bits of it are worst isn't really important, since it's pretty much all bad.

You are asking me to believe that there is something very bad about this global warming thing but are not at all willing to discuss it's problems.

I do not see a variability that is, so far, less than normal and at most slightly higher than today according to the models that don't work.

The overall effect of a slightly warmer world will definately be a slightly wetter world. I think that is not in question(?). This, combined with the effect upon plant fertility of increased CO2, will, and is, produce a far greener world. Surely this definate benefit is more than the possible negative of a slightly more variable climate?

I would very much like you to reply to the question of what it would take for you to nolonger believe that CO2 realese by humanity was a trouble.

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Offline Bored chemist

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"You are asking me to believe that there is something very bad about this global warming thing but are not at all willing to discuss it's problems. "
It's hard to discuss them when you refuse to accept that they exist.

"I do not see a variability that is, so far, less than normal and at most slightly higher than today according to the models that don't work. "
I can't help what you do, or don't see. But even a few years ago there was enough evidence to fill an hour of television about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01f893x

"The overall effect of a slightly warmer world will definately be a slightly wetter world. I think that is not in question(?). This, combined with the effect upon plant fertility of increased CO2, will, and is, produce a far greener world. Surely this definate benefit is more than the possible negative of a slightly more variable climate?
"
Not, it's not at all sure.
I already addressed that and you are complacently ignoring it.

" would very much like you to reply to the question of what it would take for you to nolonger believe that CO2 realese by humanity was a trouble."

And I'd very much like you to answer the question I have asked repeatedly.
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

Why do you think you are right and all the experts are wrong?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline jeffreyH

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The problem is the inter-connectedness of everything. What Tim doesn't appreciate is the delicate balance in the natural world. Ecosystems can be devastated by even subtle changes that seem too small to matter. Civilisations can be overturned by such changes.

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Offline puppypower

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Manmade global warming and climate change are even more politically charged and divided. I bet you, I can ask people their political orientation, and infer their position of this subject, and be right 90% of the time. Culture is not that science literate to be so opinionated on climate science.
Indeed, and the political side that doesn't "believe" in AGW is the one that explicitly opposes teaching critical thinking in schools.
What does that tell you?

If yo were right about the idea that only the "politically supported" science got funding then there  wouldn't be  scienticic reasearch on both sides- but there is.
So your idea is wrong.
But seeing that requires critical thinking...
 And this "To me, since it is important for science to come to the truth, I would split the resources in half and give half to each POV; pro and con. Allow both sides to give it their best, so we can come to the truth, independent of political pressure." is obviously stupid for two reasons.
Firstly, why give 50% to each? If there were two research groups : one believes in unicorns and it trying to save them from extinction, and the other is trying to do the same for giant pandas, would you allocate the same resources to both?

But the bigger problem is what you are proposing to do is fund the antithesis of science.
In true science there are no groups who are "for" or "against" AGW. There are groups trying to find out the truth.
Just fund those and we will actually get an honest answer.


I think you have it backward with respect to teaching critical thinking. The left teaches feeling first, not logic first. The result are expensive social problems.

A critical thinker would say that weather and climate change is not something that just appeared in the past 100 years. These things are part of what the earth has done for millions of years. The question I would ask, if we normalize the data gather methods, using the methods we use for weather 1M year ago; tree rings, ice core samples, how would the past compare to the present.

Modern data gathering gives us a second by second picture, which you can't see with tree rings. This will create the illusion that there is more variability today. Has anyone investigated normalizing the data gathering methods to see how well they compare? You can't tell day to day weather and rainbows by tree rings. But you can with photography and satellites.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Manmade global warming and climate change are even more politically charged and divided. I bet you, I can ask people their political orientation, and infer their position of this subject, and be right 90% of the time. Culture is not that science literate to be so opinionated on climate science.
Indeed, and the political side that doesn't "believe" in AGW is the one that explicitly opposes teaching critical thinking in schools.
What does that tell you?

If yo were right about the idea that only the "politically supported" science got funding then there  wouldn't be  scienticic reasearch on both sides- but there is.
So your idea is wrong.
But seeing that requires critical thinking...
 And this "To me, since it is important for science to come to the truth, I would split the resources in half and give half to each POV; pro and con. Allow both sides to give it their best, so we can come to the truth, independent of political pressure." is obviously stupid for two reasons.
Firstly, why give 50% to each? If there were two research groups : one believes in unicorns and it trying to save them from extinction, and the other is trying to do the same for giant pandas, would you allocate the same resources to both?

But the bigger problem is what you are proposing to do is fund the antithesis of science.
In true science there are no groups who are "for" or "against" AGW. There are groups trying to find out the truth.
Just fund those and we will actually get an honest answer.
I think you have it backward with respect to teaching critical thinking. The left teaches feeling first, not logic first. The result are expensive social problems.

The Right (note the capital letter btw) is trying to avoid teaching logic at all.
However if you think your point is true please supply some evidence for it- but obviously, not in this thread.

But, on the subject of " you have it backwards" perhaps you can explain something
There is no doubt that there's more CO2 in the air.
There's no doubt that we put it there (we know how much oil we burned essentially because we know how much profit the oil companies made; the figures tally).

So, how can AGW not happen?

It's like the people who don't believe in eveolution.
When you ask them how come it doesn't happen they start to look at their shoes and mumble.
Unless you say "God resets it every night" there's no way round the fact of evolution- never-mind the evidence that it happens; what could stop it doings so?

Well, in the same way,
Given the fact that CO2 absorbs IR as it does; what stops it being a greenhouse gas.
What stops more of it being a more effective greenhouse gas?
 (and please don't waste time talking about saturated transitions- I'm a spectroscopist).

If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.

Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline puppypower

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First of all, about 50% of the energy given off by the sun is in IR. This means extra CO2 not only keeps the heat in the earth, but it also IR out. My prediction is temperature should rise slower than all the models predict. This is what the hard data says.

One question to ask is, why did man made global warming rebrand itself into climate change? It was like Coke brand becoming the New Coke brand.  One likely reason is the temperature rise has been less than what is being predicted by the models, thereby lending doubt about other predictions and the strength of the CO2 affect. There is a door open in the greenhouse, that is really due to some CO2 cloth shrouded, keeping out heat.

Climate change was chosen as the new branding, because this is less quantitative and more qualitative. Anything can be called climate change. There is no clear objective standard, like temperature. This means if children see a rainbow for the first time, it could be due to climate change.

Another problem, that is more subtle is, modern weather and climate is monitored, in real time, globally. Whereas the weather and climate, more than 150 years ago, has to be inferred from things like ice core samples and tree rings. This type of data does not show the same variety, day to day. Modern tools will always show more stuff.

As an example of how this can impact optics and perception, for fun, I would like to make the prediction that man made global warming is responsible for more rainbows. If you do a Google search, "rainbows", under images, you can see all types of pictures of rainbows, nearly all of which were taken in the past 10 years. 

Next, try to find a picture of a rainbow from 500 years ago or say 100,000 year ago. There is no pictorial evidence that rainbows ever existed before the invention of color photography. 

We all know my fun claim is false and misleading. We can infer that rainbows existed in the distant past, based on the physics of light and water bubbles. But to convince the laymen, you will need to teach them the basic physics needed to allow them to make this inference. Good luck with that, if the paid consensus says the preponderance of the hard data says more rainbows in the past 100 years, compared to any time in the history of the earth.

Technically this is correct, since all we have before the invention of photography, is wives tales, anecdotes and inference that rainbows occurred, which is not hard data, per se. If you can't agree there is more hard data, today, then you are not a real scientist. I got you on a technicality of science.

Even if critical thinking people can accept the inference o rainbows before first color photo in 1861, how would quantify the inference, so you can compare the numbers to refute my claim? This is where we need to go even farther away from the layman. It is so much easier to count photos. Climate change was chosen because like rainbows, modern tools will have more hard data. While the path of inference days is riddled with holes that only experts can appreciate, who can be easily discredited.

This is why I suggested doing a comparison using only the crude tools that are used for ancient climate. Both will be limited in the same way, so we have apples to apples.

I saw a study where a scientists did just this and compared the last 1200 years. He found that the modern trends were within the parameters of the larger trend. I forgot where I saw it but this is recent. I don;t have time now, but I will try to find it.

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Offline Bored chemist

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"First of all, about 50% of the energy given off by the sun is in IR. This means extra CO2 not only keeps the heat in the earth, but it also IR out. "
Flat out wrong.
The CO2 that is the Earth's atmosphere is part of the Earth so, when the heat is absorbed by the CO2 in that atmosphere it is absorbed by the Earth. That's not "keeping it out", that's "keeping it IN"
But thanks for showing how little you are concerned about the truth in this matter.

"One question to ask is, why did man made global warming re brand itself into climate change? "
Another question is "how much wood could a wood chuck chuck?"
But asking that in the current circumstances is plainly trying to detract attention from the question you were asked.
So, why not stop talking cobblers and answer the question?

If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline agyejy

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First of all, about 50% of the energy given off by the sun is in IR. This means extra CO2 not only keeps the heat in the earth, but it also IR out. My prediction is temperature should rise slower than all the models predict. This is what the hard data says.

It's too bad for you that the greenhouse effect is about visible light being absorbed at the surface of the Earth and reradiated as infrared light (in addition to what Bored chemist said). Then some of that new infrared light is then trapped increasing the overall heat at the surface. This would be the third time I've told you this. If I have to continue to repeat myself my opinion of your desire to actually have a discussion about this is going to suffer.

Also, there is no actual hard data showing that the temperature rise is slower than the models. Here is a good explanation (far too complex to quote here):

http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models-intermediate.htm

The following is also useful:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/ipcc-global-warming-projections.htm

In short there is no data supporting your assertion.

Quote
One question to ask is, why did man made global warming rebrand itself into climate change? It was like Coke brand becoming the New Coke brand.  One likely reason is the temperature rise has been less than what is being predicted by the models, thereby lending doubt about other predictions and the strength of the CO2 affect. There is a door open in the greenhouse, that is really due to some CO2 cloth shrouded, keeping out heat.

Climate change was chosen as the new branding, because this is less quantitative and more qualitative. Anything can be called climate change. There is no clear objective standard, like temperature. This means if children see a rainbow for the first time, it could be due to climate change.

Except that isn't what happened at all:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-global-warming.htm

Quote
Another problem, that is more subtle is, modern weather and climate is monitored, in real time, globally. Whereas the weather and climate, more than 150 years ago, has to be inferred from things like ice core samples and tree rings. This type of data does not show the same variety, day to day. Modern tools will always show more stuff.

As an example of how this can impact optics and perception, for fun, I would like to make the prediction that man made global warming is responsible for more rainbows. If you do a Google search, "rainbows", under images, you can see all types of pictures of rainbows, nearly all of which were taken in the past 10 years. In fact, of the pictures of rainbow you will find, may correlate to the invention of the cell phone?

Next, try to find a picture of a rainbow from 500 years ago or say 100,000 year ago. There is no pictorial evidence that rainbows ever existed before the invention of color photography. 

We all know my fun claim is false and misleading. We can infer that rainbows existed in the distant past, based on the physics of light and water bubbles. But to convince the laymen, you will need to teach them the basic physics needed to allow them to make this inference. Good luck with that, if the paid consensus says the preponderance of the hard data says more rainbows in the past 100 years, compared to any time in the history of the earth.

Technically this is correct, since all we have before the invention of photography, is wives tales, anecdotes and inference that rainbows occurred, which is not hard data, per se. If you can't agree there is more hard data, today, then you are not a real scientist. I got you on a technicality of science.

Even if critical thinking people can accept the inference o rainbows before first color photo in 1861, how would quantify the inference, so you can compare the numbers to refute my claim? This is where we need to go even farther away from the layman. It is so much easier to count photos. Climate change was chosen because like rainbows, modern tools will have more hard data. While the path of inference days is riddled with holes that only experts can appreciate, who can be easily discredited.

This is why I suggested doing a comparison using only the crude tools that are used for ancient climate. Both will be limited in the same way, so we have apples to apples.

I saw a study where a scientists did just this and compared the last 1200 years. He found that the modern trends were within the parameters of the larger trend. I forgot where I saw it but this is recent. I don;t have time now, but I will try to find it.

Nope yet again:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/surface-temperature-measurements-advanced.htm

Specifically toward the bottom there is a comparison between some normally used paleo records and actual temperature measurements for the same time periods. The paleo records agree with each other and the modern measurements. Turns out scientists actually know what they are talking about and are generally very careful about data collection and interpretation. Of course anyone that actually understands how science is done already knows that.

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Offline puppypower

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The researchers from Sweden, Germany, and Switzerland have for the first time reconstructed the variations in water availability across the Northern Hemisphere seamless for the past twelve centuries. This allows for comparisons between various parts of Europe, Asia, and North America.

The study shows that hydroclimate extremes have been stronger and covered larger areas in some earlier centuries than during the twentieth century, explains lead author Fredrik Charpentier Ljungqvist from Stockholm University.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160406165534.htm

Manmade global warming, due to CO2, should mean more water in the atmosphere since the solubility of water in the atmosphere will increase with temperature. This group has shown there was actually more water in play, at other times of the past, compared to the present. However, this is not correlate to temperature. There is something being left out of the model, by those who know how to collect data. Collecting data is different from analyzing data.

Even if the temperature is going up, due to CO2, their study shows that temperature rise alone does not correspond to wide spread climate change, since climate change is connected to the water in play. In fact, the articles says they found worse droughts in cooler times.

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The scientists compared their reconstructed hydroclimate variations with a new temperature reconstruction they also developed, to understand links between the two. It turned out that only a few regions showed clear correlations between changes in temperature and hydroclimate. For instance, drought was most widespread during both the relatively warm twelfth century and the relatively cold fifteenth century.

There only appears to be more rainbows, today, than in the past, because it was assumed too difficult for renegade scientists to correlate the past under the peer pressure review process.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2016 12:48:14 by puppypower »

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Offline puppypower

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Let me discuss one more aspect of the optics for manmade global warming, that is more subtle and seems to fool even top notch scientists. The human brain is the most important tool of science. However, there is no rule in science that requires that the this brain instrument needs to be calibrated. What would happen if the GC of the chemist was not properly calibrate. He would see things that are not there and miss things that are there, even if he has the best of intent.

To show how one aspect needed for mind calibration, let me first compare pure science to applied science. I am more of an applied scientist, which is why I have so many theories for the same thing; contriver. Pure science faithfully collects data, from which the laws of science appear; correlate. Applied science is different. This type of science begins with the laws of science, as a platform, to create new things, that may not part of nature, but nevertheless may have practical use; tools.

A classic example is of the difference between the two is metallic aluminum. Aluminum cannot be found as a pure metal in nature. This is because aluminum will oxidize with so much heat output, there is hardly any natural process that can reverse this. The pure scientist will not find aluminum metal in nature. Applied science, on the other hand, can make metallic aluminum using electricity.

Say a pure scientists, gathering natural data, found some metallic aluminum. He is not passing any judgment, but systematically collecting the data. He brings it back to his colleagues and all assume this was natural. They are not aware this is a product of applied science, because this invention is new and still secretly protected by patents.

If this was a real natural discover, this discovery could have a ripple effect in terms of how pure science thinks the earth works. In other words, to get to metallic aluminum, the earth will need to be governed by some new laws, such as have a source of electricity. This need, could then lead some to think the iron core is sending out sparks to the surface. This could explain the return stroke of lightning, etc. I am just making this up, as an illustration of the ripple affect, that assuming  applied science is natural.

A pure scientist is not trained to extrapolate pure science, to serve the needs of industry and culture. His mind is more set around  collecting natural data and correlating this to what we know to about the natural universe. The applied scientist, is cut from a different cloth, and is not concerned about natural, other than to using this as a platform, for adding the human touch to nature. Anything is possible beyond that.

Certain problems can appear if either overlaps the other too much. The applied scientist can think he just invented something, only to find out this is natural. The applied chemistry may spend years synthesizing a new molecule that wakes you up, only to find out this is already in coffee; whoops! Or the pure scientist may think he found a new phenomena, that can change how we view nature, only to find out this is not natural. There is synthetic mechanism, and not any big ripple in natural science.

The latter is interesting, because this is how magic works. Magic is based on science, which extrapolate natural laws, by contrivance. The object of any trick is do what appears to extend the laws of nature. If his lovely assistant flies around the stage, then the laws of gravity, have just been blown wide open.

This magic tricks requires extrapolation of the known laws science; physical and psychological, so the output data of the experiment (trick) appears to generate data for the pure scientist, in each of us. The magician places metallic aluminum in the woods of the mind so it looks to belong there. The hope is the audience of layman pure scientists will extrapolate this to the logical natural limit; flying around the stage is possible. 

The layman can understand basic science, but he may not understand how to invent from this. Magic only needs you to understand the basics, such as gravity pulls downward. They don't expect the audience to be full of applied scientists working on an anti-gravity device and has eliminated many options. That person knows what to look for and will try to find the secret, if it does exist, to help his own research. This is not a guy the magician wants in the audience, especially if he is spoils the trick. It works better with layman natural scientists.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Let me discuss one more aspect of the optics for manmade global warming, that is more subtle and seems to fool even top notch scientists. The human brain is the most important tool of science. However, there is no rule in science that requires that the this brain instrument needs to be calibrated. What would happen if the GC of the chemist was not properly calibrate. He would see things that are not there and miss things that are there, even if he has the best of intent.

To show how one aspect needed for mind calibration, let me first compare pure science to applied science. I am more of an applied scientist, which is why I have so many theories for the same thing; contriver. Pure science faithfully collects data, from which the laws of science appear; correlate. Applied science is different. This type of science begins with the laws of science, as a platform, to create new things, that may not part of nature, but nevertheless may have practical use; tools.

A classic example is of the difference between the two is metallic aluminum. Aluminum cannot be found as a pure metal in nature. This is because aluminum will oxidize with so much heat output, there is hardly any natural process that can reverse this. The pure scientist will not find aluminum metal in nature. Applied science, on the other hand, can make metallic aluminum using electricity.

Say a pure scientists, gathering natural data, found some metallic aluminum. He is not passing any judgment, but systematically collecting the data. He brings it back to his colleagues and all assume this was natural. They are not aware this is a product of applied science, because this invention is new and still secretly protected by patents.

If this was a real natural discover, this discovery could have a ripple effect in terms of how pure science thinks the earth works. In other words, to get to metallic aluminum, the earth will need to be governed by some new laws, such as have a source of electricity. This need, could then lead some to think the iron core is sending out sparks to the surface. This could explain the return stroke of lightning, etc. I am just making this up, as an illustration of the ripple affect, that assuming  applied science is natural.

A pure scientist is not trained to extrapolate pure science, to serve the needs of industry and culture. His mind is more set around  collecting natural data and correlating this to what we know to about the natural universe. The applied scientist, is cut from a different cloth, and is not concerned about natural, other than to using this as a platform, for adding the human touch to nature. Anything is possible beyond that.

Certain problems can appear if either overlaps the other too much. The applied scientist can think he just invented something, only to find out this is natural. The applied chemistry may spend years synthesizing a new molecule that wakes you up, only to find out this is already in coffee; whoops! Or the pure scientist may think he found a new phenomena, that can change how we view nature, only to find out this is not natural. There is synthetic mechanism, and not any big ripple in natural science.

The latter is interesting, because this is how magic works. Magic is based on science, which extrapolate natural laws, by contrivance. The object of any trick is do what appears to extend the laws of nature. If his lovely assistant flies around the stage, then the laws of gravity, have just been blown wide open.

This magic tricks requires extrapolation of the known laws science; physical and psychological, so the output data of the experiment (trick) appears to generate data for the pure scientist, in each of us. The magician places metallic aluminum in the woods of the mind so it looks to belong there. The hope is the audience of layman pure scientists will extrapolate this to the logical natural limit; flying around the stage is possible. 

The layman can understand basic science, but he may not understand how to invent from this. Magic only needs you to understand the basics, such as gravity pulls downward. They don't expect the audience to be full of applied scientists working on an anti-gravity device and has eliminated many options. That person knows what to look for and will try to find the secret, if it does exist, to help his own research. This is not a guy the magician wants in the audience, especially if he is spoils the trick. It works better with layman natural scientists.
It might be better for you if you typed less.
You might make fewer mistakes that way.
So, for example, your point about an uncalibrated instrument- well- that's what laboratory inter comparisons and reference materials are for.
You analyse those, see that you are not getting the right answer and so you find out what the problem is.
You, on the other hand, know that you are out of step with science, but plough on anyway.

You are also flat out wrong about the pure vs applied science.
Aluminium was first isolated as a metal by Oersted- doing pure science. (There are also some reports of it occurring as a metal in nature- but that's hardly the point.)
There is no difference between pure and applied scientists in the way you imply.
So- you don't know what you are talking about.

You also seem to have got lost in your rant.
You started that posy by saying "Let me discuss one more aspect of the optics for manmade global warming, that is more subtle and seems to fool even top notch scientists. "
then you didn't say anything about it.
Are you an idiot?

At the end of the day you have forgotten to address the important issue:
If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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"You are asking me to believe that there is something very bad about this global warming thing but are not at all willing to discuss it's problems. "
It's hard to discuss them when you refuse to accept that they exist.

You claim that they exist. It is for you to back up this claim. I cannot talk about such things that you will not specify.

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"I do not see a variability that is, so far, less than normal and at most slightly higher than today according to the models that don't work. "
I can't help what you do, or don't see. But even a few years ago there was enough evidence to fill an hour of television about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01f893x

Somebody could easily make an hour long TV program about the world being flat.

Here is a study saying that our present expectation of normal waether/climate witjout any influence of CO2 is very much a rose tinted thing;


Quote
http://acecrc.org.au/news/antarctic-ice-cores-reveal-risks-for-water-supply/

“The study showed that modern climate records, which are available for the past one hundred years at best, do not capture the full range of rainfall variability that has occurred,” Dr Tozer said.[/size][/color]

Quote
"The overall effect of a slightly warmer world will definately be a slightly wetter world. I think that is not in question(?). This, combined with the effect upon plant fertility of increased CO2, will, and is, produce a far greener world. Surely this definate benefit is more than the possible negative of a slightly more variable climate?
"
Not, it's not at all sure.
I already addressed that and you are complacently ignoring it.

Do you think that a warmer, wetter world with more abundant CO2 would be a more fertile world for plant growth? Excluding other factors. So we can look at storms and droughts separately. So we can actually advance the discussion by agreeing what we agree on etc?

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" would very much like you to reply to the question of what it would take for you to nolonger believe that CO2 realese by humanity was a trouble."

And I'd very much like you to answer the question I have asked repeatedly.
"What do you want me to produce to support my view that you should listen to the people who have studied it?"

1. Predictions they made which were accuracte, with low margins for error which they got right.

and

2. Predictions they make which show something bad which would not be easily countered by the state in question spending the same on countering it as they presently spend upon traffic lights.


Quote
Why do you think you are right and all the experts are wrong?

I think some experts are wrong. I think lots of them are right. I think most of those who think that there is no significant trouble are saying stuff in a legal way that allows them to make noises that sound to the believers like they are part of the cult whilst being able to point to it in a few years and show that they never said anything untrue.

I live in a world where I am told that I will be sacked if I don't attach myslf to the "man safe" system of a harness and inertial laniard to work on the roof of the school I am working on. The harness is designed in such a way that if I was to fall in it it would hold me in such a way that I would be unable to breath. After 10 minutes I would be expected to be dead if suspended in it. I don't use the harness and even when I am unable to get away with not having it on I make sure that it is not securely attached to anything in the hope that if I do fall the thing will not snag and crucify me after tearing my scrotum appart. This often also happens.

Climbing harnesses allow you to fall 140m and climb back up to have another go. These are not allowed.

I live in a world where people tell me that the experts say that Bangladesh will be flooded and all the people will start a war to get away from the rising seas. This will happen due to a 1m rise in sea level over the next 100 years. Bangladesh gets at least 2cm of sediment dumped on it every monsoon.

Every bit of this AGW subject I look at falls appart.

Your avoidance of the questions is typical of somebody who knows really but is in deep denial.
« Last Edit: 14/05/2016 10:03:18 by Tim the Plumber »

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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The problem is the inter-connectedness of everything. What Tim doesn't appreciate is the delicate balance in the natural world. Ecosystems can be devastated by even subtle changes that seem too small to matter. Civilisations can be overturned by such changes.

You, and others, do not appreciate the robustness of nature.

The types of people who are the skeptics are the types of people who are not all that risk averse. Those who think the world will end due to slight changes are the same who have never taken a risk.

Here is a simple quiz;

What have you ever done in your live and career that was a deliberate risk which you took because you thought the reward was worth the risk?

My example; I renovated a house in Rotherham, investing my savings and using debt to make a sucess of the project. I also did the same in France but that has been a financial disaster.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Manmade global warming and climate change are even more politically charged and divided. I bet you, I can ask people their political orientation, and infer their position of this subject, and be right 90% of the time. Culture is not that science literate to be so opinionated on climate science.
Indeed, and the political side that doesn't "believe" in AGW is the one that explicitly opposes teaching critical thinking in schools.
What does that tell you?

If yo were right about the idea that only the "politically supported" science got funding then there  wouldn't be  scienticic reasearch on both sides- but there is.
So your idea is wrong.
But seeing that requires critical thinking...
 And this "To me, since it is important for science to come to the truth, I would split the resources in half and give half to each POV; pro and con. Allow both sides to give it their best, so we can come to the truth, independent of political pressure." is obviously stupid for two reasons.
Firstly, why give 50% to each? If there were two research groups : one believes in unicorns and it trying to save them from extinction, and the other is trying to do the same for giant pandas, would you allocate the same resources to both?

But the bigger problem is what you are proposing to do is fund the antithesis of science.
In true science there are no groups who are "for" or "against" AGW. There are groups trying to find out the truth.
Just fund those and we will actually get an honest answer.
I think you have it backward with respect to teaching critical thinking. The left teaches feeling first, not logic first. The result are expensive social problems.

The Right (note the capital letter btw) is trying to avoid teaching logic at all.
However if you think your point is true please supply some evidence for it- but obviously, not in this thread.

But, on the subject of " you have it backwards" perhaps you can explain something
There is no doubt that there's more CO2 in the air.
There's no doubt that we put it there (we know how much oil we burned essentially because we know how much profit the oil companies made; the figures tally).

So, how can AGW not happen?

It's like the people who don't believe in eveolution.
When you ask them how come it doesn't happen they start to look at their shoes and mumble.
Unless you say "God resets it every night" there's no way round the fact of evolution- never-mind the evidence that it happens; what could stop it doings so?

Well, in the same way,
Given the fact that CO2 absorbs IR as it does; what stops it being a greenhouse gas.
What stops more of it being a more effective greenhouse gas?
 (and please don't waste time talking about saturated transitions- I'm a spectroscopist).

If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.

Answer;

1, Water vapour does almost everything that CO2 does already.

2, The effect of CO2, even if we ignore the water vapour thing, is not enough to warrant any panic. The IPCC et al add strange positive feedback effects to the initial figures to push them upwards.

3, Even with these add-ons the numbers that come out of the IPCC do not scare me at all. The effects seem to be well within the capacity for humans to cope with with tiny changes to livestyle. Changes like taking the jumper off and buying a new garden chair.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Answer;

1, Water vapour does almost everything that CO2 does already.

2, The effect of CO2, even if we ignore the water vapour thing, is not enough to warrant any panic. The IPCC et al add strange positive feedback effects to the initial figures to push them upwards.

3, Even with these add-ons the numbers that come out of the IPCC do not scare me at all. The effects seem to be well within the capacity for humans to cope with with tiny changes to livestyle. Changes like taking the jumper off and buying a new garden chair.

2
It's true that water vapour absorbs IR- but not at the same wavelengths as CO2 so the effects both drive independently in the same direction.
2 if we don't ignore the water (and it seems we agree that's the sensible approach- since you raised it) then you have to account for what the effect will be.

You haven't even tried to show that additional CO2 doesn't cause additional warming- so let's assume that the denialist fairy doesn't undo that warming.
We add CO2 to the air- it gets a bit warmer.
That encourages the evaporation of more water - that increases the concentration of water in the air.
And, since (as we both agree) that is a potent greenhouse gas, we get even more warming.

Why do you try to write that off as "strange positive feedback effects" when it's pretty much the obvious outcome?

3
Extreme weather events already kill lots of people every year.
Your complacency threatens  even more lives.
Don't you consider people's lives to be important- as long as you can still waste energy as you always have?


And, at the end of the day, you still haven't answered my point.
If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Answer;

1, Water vapour does almost everything that CO2 does already.

2, The effect of CO2, even if we ignore the water vapour thing, is not enough to warrant any panic. The IPCC et al add strange positive feedback effects to the initial figures to push them upwards.

3, Even with these add-ons the numbers that come out of the IPCC do not scare me at all. The effects seem to be well within the capacity for humans to cope with with tiny changes to livestyle. Changes like taking the jumper off and buying a new garden chair.

2
It's true that water vapour absorbs IR- but not at the same wavelengths as CO2 so the effects both drive independently in the same direction.
2 if we don't ignore the water (and it seems we agree that's the sensible approach- since you raised it) then you have to account for what the effect will be.

You haven't even tried to show that additional CO2 doesn't cause additional warming- so let's assume that the denialist fairy doesn't undo that warming.
We add CO2 to the air- it gets a bit warmer.
That encourages the evaporation of more water - that increases the concentration of water in the air.
And, since (as we both agree) that is a potent greenhouse gas, we get even more warming.

Why do you try to write that off as "strange positive feedback effects" when it's pretty much the obvious outcome?

It has been much warmer in the past without this effect coming into play. The science of IR absorption and emission is beyond me. The degree to which the wavelengths are overlapping with the water that is already there, the amount of additional water, the degree that this would cause any more absorption or if that effect is already at maximum, I don't know.

All I can talk about is that this is a very complex system and I don't see anbody having a good robust understanding of it because I don't see anybody being very good at predicting it's opperations.

Just because a pretty theory says that the obvious result of increased CO2 says that the temperature will rise does not trump the fact that it has not risen during the period when we have vastly increased the amount we produce and thus the amount of CO2 in the air. Data trumps theory.


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3
Extreme weather events already kill lots of people every year.
Your complacency threatens  even more lives.
Don't you consider people's lives to be important- as long as you can still waste energy as you always have?

Over 35,000 people die each year in the UK alone due to pollution from diesel cars and trucks. This is a direct result of the fixation against CO2 and the race for low carbon vehicles rather than a sensable approach. Do you care about this at all?

I don't, much. That's because there are many millions of people dying as a result of increased food prices. Ten million is a figure I have seen in a paper but I cannot see the figure being so low. This is something I care a lot more about. I consider it to be a far greater vrime against humanity than WWII. This is due to the very conservative figure of at least 200 million deaths so far.


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And, at the end of the day, you still haven't answered my point.
If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.

I have no ambition to convince you that AGW is not happening. I don't see that it has over the last 18 years and would not be surprised if it turns out that it's 100% drivel but that will be beyond my level of science.

The significant question is not if it's real but to what degree it is going to happen. Thus I ask you the following, again;

Given the last 18 years of no signoficant warming can we dismiss the top half of the IPCC's predictions? If not what range of projected temperature increase do you think is now on the cards for 2100?

It would also be nice if you were to comment on the what it would take for you to consider the AGW thing dead in the thread about it.

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Offline Bored chemist

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It would also be nice if you were to comment on the what it would take for you to consider the AGW thing dead in the thread about it.[/color]
I already did.
As I said.
If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.

Saying it doesn't exist "I don't see that it has over the last 18 years" doesn't make you look good when the data disagrees with you.
You say "Just because a pretty theory says that the obvious result of increased CO2 says that the temperature will rise does not trump the fact that it has not risen during the period when we have vastly increased the amount we produce and thus the amount of CO2 in the air. Data trumps theory."
well, it sure does.


https://robertscribbler.com/2016/01/14/december-of-2015-at-1-4-c-above-1890-is-a-terrifying-new-jump-in-global-temperatures/

Pretending that reducing carbon emission vehicles from vehicles will somehow increase pollution doesn't make a lot of sense.

Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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It would also be nice if you were to comment on the what it would take for you to consider the AGW thing dead in the thread about it.[/color]
I already did.
As I said.
If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.

Saying it doesn't exist "I don't see that it has over the last 18 years" doesn't make you look good when the data disagrees with you.
You say "Just because a pretty theory says that the obvious result of increased CO2 says that the temperature will rise does not trump the fact that it has not risen during the period when we have vastly increased the amount we produce and thus the amount of CO2 in the air. Data trumps theory."
well, it sure does.


https://robertscribbler.com/2016/01/14/december-of-2015-at-1-4-c-above-1890-is-a-terrifying-new-jump-in-global-temperatures/

Pretending that reducing carbon emission vehicles from vehicles will somehow increase pollution doesn't make a lot of sense.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=66558.0

You have not made any coment on this thread. I would like you to make your comment.

Again! I do not have the opinion that global warming is not happenening at all. You are constructing a false argument, a strawman.

Petrol engines burn more fuel to make the car go than deisel engines. Thus there has, in Europe been a move to deisel pushed by the governments to reduce carbon emissions. YOU KNOW THIS! This has had the effect of greatly increasing harmful pollution. 35,000 deaths per year.

Your terrifying new jump in global temperatures has a trend of +0.74c per century!!! Who the hell is going to be terrified of that???

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Offline Bored chemist

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You seem to be claiming that almost the only thing killing people  is increased diesel use.
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2016/02February/Pages/Air-pollution-kills-40000-a-year-in-the-UK-says-report.aspx

The data I posted isn't supposed to terrify you: just stop you lying.

"You have not made any comment on this thread. I would like you to make your comment."
OK, here's a comment .
This thread would be shorter if you didn't ask  me to provide the same reply in different threads.

If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline alancalverd

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Just to inject a hint of sanity, life expectancy in civilised countries (and in the USA) has increased steadily since 1960, and respiratory disease as a cause of death has become less significant over the same period, which suggests that "diesel fumes are killing everyone" is a bit short of the truth.

And for the sake of clarity, it would be foolish to suggest that the climate isn't changing, since it always has done and is inherently unstable, but every attempt to predict the change from anthropogenic causes, seems to fail. The only question is whether this failure is due to excessive enthusiasm of the doomsayers, or an absence of any scientific basis for their predictions.
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Offline agyejy

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Just to inject a hint of sanity,

Why stop at sanity when we could also do with a bit of logic and empirical evidence? For instance:

every attempt to predict the change from anthropogenic causes, seems to fail.

Where is your evidence for this statement? Why do you believe we have failed to predict the changes from anthropogenic causes when basically every trained climate scientists (you know the people that are actually trained to study the climate) say the opposite? I mean I've posted more than enough evidence already supporting the validity of current climate models in terms of predicting current climate states but lets go over it again anyway.

For starters:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models-intermediate.htm (and since no that disagrees seems to be willing to take the time to actually read a link)

Quote from: The link above
There are two major questions in climate modeling - can they accurately reproduce the past (hindcasting) and can they successfully predict the future? To answer the first question, here is a summary of the IPCC model results of surface temperature from the 1800s - both with and without man-made forcings. All the models are unable to predict recent warming without taking rising CO2 levels into account. Nobody has created a general circulation model that can explain climate's behavior over the past century without CO2 warming.

Quote from: Same
A paper led by James Risbey (2014) in Nature Climate Change takes a clever approach to evaluating how accurate climate model temperature predictions have been while getting around the noise caused by natural cycles. The authors used a large set of simulations from 18 different climate models (from CMIP5). They looked at each 15-year period since the 1950s, and compared how accurately each model simulation had represented El Niño and La Niña conditions during those 15 years, using the trends in what's known as the Niño3.4 index.

Each individual climate model run has a random representation of these natural ocean cycles, so for every 15-year period, some of those simulations will have accurately represented the actual El Niño conditions just by chance. The study authors compared the simulations that were correctly synchronized with the ocean cycles (blue data in the left frame below) and the most out-of-sync (grey data in the right frame) to the observed global surface temperature changes (red) for each 15-year period.

...[There was a figure here please actually follow the link]

The authors conclude,

When the phase of natural variability is taken into account, the model 15-year warming trends in CMIP5 projections well estimate the observed trends for all 15-year periods over the past half-century.

Quote from: Still the same link
When Mount Pinatubo erupted in 1991, it provided an opportunity to test how successfully models could predict the climate response to the sulfate aerosols injected into the atmosphere. The models accurately forecasted the subsequent global cooling of about 0.5°C soon after the eruption. Furthermore, the radiative, water vapor and dynamical feedbacks included in the models were also quantitatively verified (Hansen 2007). More on predicting the future...

The above establishes that the models work in terms of both hindcasting and forecasting. Additionally the models fail to work without the inclusion of anthropogenic causes. Now if you happen to have any peer reviewed articles with empirical evidence that counters any of that than by all means let's see it. Of course there is more:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming-advanced.htm <- The sun can't account for the climatic changes
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-natural-cycle.htm <- General overview of why the current climatic changes are not from natural causes
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period-intermediate.htm <- General overview of why the rapid changes we are seeing are bad

So again I ask do you have any peer reviewed scientific articles with empirical evidence backing your claim the climate scientists are wrong?

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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You seem to be claiming that almost the only thing killing people  is increased diesel use.
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2016/02February/Pages/Air-pollution-kills-40000-a-year-in-the-UK-says-report.aspx

The data I posted isn't supposed to terrify you: just stop you lying.

"You have not made any comment on this thread. I would like you to make your comment."
OK, here's a comment .
This thread would be shorter if you didn't ask  me to provide the same reply in different threads.

If you want to convince me that AGW isn't happening, you need to explain what's stopping it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/diesel-fumes-biggest-health-catastrophe-since-black-death-as-london-exceeds-yearly-air-pollution-a6803876.html

http://fortune.com/2015/11/30/diesel-emissions-deaths-europe-ee/

Quote
More than 500,000 Europeans a year may be dying from conditions related to air pollution, the European Union’s environmental watchdog said in a new report Monday. The report is likely to further stoke the emissions controversy plaguing the continent’s automakers.

I take offencs at being called a liar when I have posted numbers that are commonly availible.

Your refusal to answer basic questions shows the depth of your denial.

Your constant use of the straw man that I am in any way telling you that humans do not cause any warming of the earth shows how much you will dodge the issues.

Your inability to answer the challenge of what would show the AGW hypothesis to be wrong or weak shows just how far away from any sort of scientific thinking you have reached on this subject, your religion.

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Offline Tim the Plumber

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Just to inject a hint of sanity, life expectancy in civilised countries (and in the USA) has increased steadily since 1960, and respiratory disease as a cause of death has become less significant over the same period, which suggests that "diesel fumes are killing everyone" is a bit short of the truth.

And for the sake of clarity, it would be foolish to suggest that the climate isn't changing, since it always has done and is inherently unstable, but every attempt to predict the change from anthropogenic causes, seems to fail. The only question is whether this failure is due to excessive enthusiasm of the doomsayers, or an absence of any scientific basis for their predictions.

Who said that deisel is killing every one?


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Offline alancalverd

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I just note the EU weasel words "may be dying". Usual drivel from an organisation that is constitutionally unable to tell the truth about anything.

Let's suppose there are 300,000,000 Europeans. All of them are going to die from something. About 6% will die from respiratory disease, i.e. 18,000,000 in total, at about 260,000 each year. So what does the figure of 500,000 relate to? How is it estimated? And what does the EU mean by "air pollution"? Smog in the street, secondary tobacco smoke, or industry-specific toxins? 
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