Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

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Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1050 on: 17/08/2008 12:12:48 »
Girlwind/ Guthrie, nice work.  Bizzy, I like the Wikipedia idea.

Sparx, anxiety was of course present in the POIS state. Outside of it I was always somewhat of an anxious person, but this is not uncommon.  I developed what might be a generalized anxiety from “fighting” the problem for so long with no results.

Concerning my results…

At times throughout my life I have had back trouble. Often once or twice a year I will throw my back out. I haven’t listed this as a symptom, but at times this has definitely happened P.O.

This previous week I had another NE, while continuing my clove a day garlic diet. Again, I had no mental symptoms, and remember for me the mental trouble has always been the main symptom. I did notice that my neck glands were slightly swollen, as if I had a minor cold. Unexpectedly one morning I woke with a sore neck, which is very odd for me. Then a couple of days later my back went out.  Whether the back/neck problems are POIS related I have no clue. 

I believe that the garlic is definitely doing something. Is it killing an organism? Is it moving mercury around? I really don’t have any idea, but it is my new drug… I am now a garliholic.  I am also still eating some raw onions, although my money is on the garlic.  I am also still consuming some flax oil,  it seems to help with energy especially when insomnia is sapping me.

Thinking back to when I believed a dairy free diet was helping me, this could very well have been around the time that I began adding cooked garlic to my diet.

 

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1051 on: 17/08/2008 15:12:21 »
Terrific! And I'm glad you said placebo effect. I was fooled by testosterone shot. It "worked" beautifully the first time, then pfffttt.
Placebo effect is good, though, it shows how badly the body/mind wants to recover!

I think the first shot of testosterone really does work and makes you feel so much better. But I too found that it quickly stops working, within 10 days. I think this is because it initially suppresses stress hormones such as cortisol and CRF, but the stress hormone circuit recovers back.

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Did your doctors monitor your Estradiol levels during your Testosterone replacement therapy ? The first shot, E2 levels might have risen slighty but after that E2 may have risen considerably.


If T shots are given once or twice a week it will shoot up your E2 levels since the liver cant handle this amount of T and thus aromtases too estrogen. Modern approach is T shots E2D or E3D to keep T levels more consistent, less rollercoaster effects and too keep E2 in check.



demografx, what was your T levels before your doctor started you on T ? Also did your Dr test for E2, LH, FSH, Free T3, 4x Cortisol, Dhea, Prolactin, Shbg too see what was the cause?



I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.

We know that prolactin surges after orgasm and that furthur depletes dopamine and
possibly giving us POIS suffers a massive Dopamine-adrenaline-epinephrine conversion which could possibly explain the anxiety some POIS sufferers experience after
orgasm and the increased Bp.


I will post the results on the board once there here as well as my 
 4 cortisol tests(cost $150) post orgasm.

I have a feeling our inability
too handle stress and also the exhaustion/fatigue the days after orgasm is linked too the adrenals so hopefully the cort test will confirm this.

I already know I have low dhea so that is one half of the equation confirmed for adrenal fatigue/burn out.


Neuros tested :


Serotonin
Dopamine
Norepinephrine
Epinephrine
GABA
PEA
Histamine
Glutamate
Creatinine

Results here in 2 weeks hopefully.

« Last Edit: 17/08/2008 15:15:16 by Michael8028 »

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1052 on: 17/08/2008 17:06:12 »

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.



Hey Michael8028--what lab will you be using for the neurotransmitter tests?

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1053 on: 17/08/2008 17:19:45 »

Dear all,

Just imagine, I am having a wonderful day
Due to a new formula:


Congratulations Coreman!

I've been having results with my formula too.
50 mg. 7 Keto DHEA 2X/day
1 tsp Maca 3X/per day
2 caps Siberian Ginseng 3X/day
1 gram Pantothenic acid 3-5X/day
B-100 caps 2X/day
2 Omega 3 Fish oil caps 1X/day
Magnesium chloride (transdermal oil) 2X/day
100 mg L-tryptophan before bed
Carbo restricted diet
and Garlic--as much as I can stand per day (thanks to John21)

Also, my CFS symptoms have been better lately, so my POIS is better as a result.
In my case, they are very interconnected.



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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1054 on: 17/08/2008 17:28:35 »
hi everyone,

I've been attempting to get an idea of how prevalent anxiety problems are amoung POIS sufferers by reading back through initial posts.

Anxiety is mentioned fairly often in association with POIS but it isn't clear whether anxiety is common before and/or after a POIS episode.

I've definitely had anxiety, due to CFS and related symptoms. The worse my energy is, the more restless and anxious I can be.
Usually the answer has been rest and adrenal restoration. Once my energy goes up, I don't have much in the way of anxiety,
unless there is some major stress or upset in my life. Because POIS seems to drain my adrenals, I will have anxiety with a POIS
episode. Though I am having some results and a lessening of POIS symptoms, due to the formula I mention above.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1055 on: 17/08/2008 18:26:13 »

demografx, what was your T levels before your doctor started you on T ? Also did your Dr test for E2, LH, FSH, Free T3, 4x Cortisol, Dhea, Prolactin, Shbg too see what was the cause?

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.


Wow, Michael, this is fascinating! I didn't know neurotransmitters could be measured like that.

My T level was normal. I asked the docs to put me on TRT strictly for POIS (they argued with me but finally relented). Sorry I don't have any more data on my TRT "cure" - which didn't work after the first shot...so I stopped. I must say my libido went over the top; now my libido is comparatively on par with a 100-year old eunuch [;D]
« Last Edit: 21/08/2008 03:24:25 by demografx »

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1056 on: 17/08/2008 19:04:22 »

demografx, what was your T levels before your doctor started you on T ? Also did your Dr test for E2, LH, FSH, Free T3, 4x Cortisol, Dhea, Prolactin, Shbg too see what was the cause?

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.


Wow, Martin, this is fascinating! I didn't know neurotransmitters could be measured like that.

My T level was normal. I asked the docs to put me on TRT strictly for POIS (they argued with me but finally relented). Sorry I don't have any more data on my TRT "cure" - which didn't work after the first shot...so I stopped. I must say my libido went over the top; now my libido is comparatively on par with a 100-year old eunuch [;D]

demografx, do you have the T number and ranges ?

Just about all doctors will say your hormones are normal if the hormones are within range.Back then, they had me believing my hormone levels were fine for a 22 yr old but after furthur research, my t level was normal for a 60-70 yr old.

Your E2 levels may have been low before starting T and after the first T shot it may have raised your E2 level too a healthy optimal level giving you the increased libido. After that it may have raised E2 way too high since I dont think your doc prescribed you any AI(Aromatse inhibitor) to control the E2 sides from T shots.

 A good way too judge healthy E2 levels is morning erections.If your getting daily morning erections then E2 levels are perfect, if not i would check E2(Estradiol).

Its good you didnt stay on Trt for long as you could of shut down your natural T production and then you would have to be on T shots for life
but that is, if your T levels were ok to begin with.


Why not ask your doc to be refered to an Endo and check the hormones above as well as the neuros ....this would take out alot of the guess work

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1057 on: 17/08/2008 19:26:15 »

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should show us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.



Hey Michael8028--what lab will you be using for the neurotransmitter tests?


Hi girlwind,(Nice video btw)

I ordered the neuro test from here :

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroscan_neurotransmitter_test.html

I see your taking Maca, pantothenic acid,B-100 caps 2X/day. These are awesome !

I take these for my adrenals too as well as vit c.

I have low dhea and low morning cortisol confirmed by saliva tests.

Have sent away my saliva kit for my afternoon, evening and late evening cortisol levels to see how bad or good my adrenals are doing the rest of the day.

BTW dhea orally 50mg a day can convert to bad estrogens messing the good to bad estrogen ratio. It depends on your liver. For no side effects from taking dhea take Dhea sublingual or rub dhea cream where the Dhea is not passed through the liver.

Although rubbing dhea cream wont work if one has Hypothyroidism as the cream wont be absorbed.


Alot of people with adrenal problems also have Hypothyroidism as the Thyroid hormone wont be received through the body when there is a lack of Cortisol which can cause anxiety etc

Im not sure if you posted your levels but what was your 4x cortisol and dhea results?

If you havent done so I would ask your Doc too check Free T3, TSH for Thyroid and Estradiol, Estrones and Progesterone too if your experiencing alot of anxiety.

If your Doc is no good, you can order these tests through ZRT labs, this is where I got mine done. You can either spit saliva through a tube or p.rick your finger for a blood spot and then all you do is send it away and they will post your results through letterbox in 2 weeks time or less.

It is expensive for most people but I think an investment too health is never too expensive.


« Last Edit: 17/08/2008 19:37:12 by Michael8028 »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1058 on: 18/08/2008 01:58:37 »

Its good you didnt stay on Trt for long as you could of shut down your natural T production and then you would have to be on T shots for life
but that is, if your T levels were ok to begin with.


Now you're scaring me. I was on TRT for some months. I was told by a top urologist that it could take 6+ months for my natural T production to come back strong. But I think there are complicating factors since I was low in libido due to depression and inactivity. I don't think numbers tell the whole story, and certainly not over the internet without a physician.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1059 on: 18/08/2008 02:04:36 »

(1) I ordered the neuro test from here :

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroscan_neurotransmitter_test.html

(2) ...order these tests through ZRT labs, this is where I got mine done...


Michael, you sound very knowledgeable; how do you know these people are good?

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Offline questforlife

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1060 on: 18/08/2008 02:33:29 »
Hi, I cannot tell you my relief to find this forum after much scouring the web for anything that could relate to all the symptoms of what I now know of as POIS.

I believe I have been suffering from POIS since puberty (I am now 31 years old).  I had thought it was a result of excessive masturbation as a young teenager.  I feel that my addictive personality trait led me to become hooked on the sensations of orgasm. 

As a result in my mid teenage years 15 upwards did I start experiences the symptoms described in this forum.  I remember vividly feeling very numb, like my feelings had simply shut down, or perhaps my mind had beomce blank with not knowing how to identfy feelings.

This i believe was the start of a trail of symptoms that left me feeling very unusual which I could not identify.  Feelings of being detached from mind to body, constant anxiety, stomach spasms, disorientation, headaches, constantly lethargic, brain fog (that was the worst). 

Needless to say since my teenage years I have been on quest to find the solution that has left me on an antidepressants for the last ten years, deteriorated social skills, inability to form long lasting relationships (inparticular sexual relations with a girlfriend) and slowly losing all love for life. 

What I am after is consistency.  POIS i believe leaves the us in a very inconsistent state. I am sure all of us know and have experienced moments where things could not feel better and then within days feeling the complete opposite through the symptoms of POIS.

Like the rest of you I too have been on this journey of self diagnosing.  I have been to doctors, consultant, acupuncturists, hypnotherapists, homeopaths, herbalist nutritionists etc.  All have their own ideas of solutions which all seem to lead me unfixed. 

My journey has been a process of elimination.  It has been this process of elimination that has arrived me to the following conclusions about areas that are effected by the illness:
In my experience I would would say the following is very relevant:
1.POIS seems to be linked to a neurotransmitter imbalances: I know this because seroxat (SSRI) which inhibits serotonin lessens the effect of the symptoms. Also I have experimented with Mucuna Pruriens which effects dopamine levels. This at first left me feeling fantastic.  However two weeks on from this I was left empty, almost in a trance like state.
2. POIS seems to be linked to hormones : I was foolish enough to experiment with a anabolic steroid called dianobol which took my testosterone levels through the roof but reduced most symptoms of POIS.  Im not sure if this would have effected DHEA levels, but I know it effects nitrogen levels in the body which gives the user a heightened sense of well being.  Dianobol in a strange way did give me that sense of well being and thus a feeling of normality.  I would like to add that it causes huge amount of damage to the liver and negatives far out weigh the positives of taking this illegal substance. 
3. POIS seems to be linked to the adrenal levels.  I find taking Licorice root herb most beneficial.  I can be very unresponsive in terms of physical reactions and licorice root tends to give me a 'charge' like i am being plugged back in. Strangely, I am not sure how the adrenals effect the stomach, but Licorice root also helps with chronic stomach muscle spasms.  It is when my stomach is at its worse (when not on licorice root) that my responsiveness seems non existent.   In relation to muscle spasms, I also suffer from facial muscle pain and muscle spasms, both of which licorice root help which.

It seems to me that POIS leaves me chemically imbalanced, whether that is serotinin, dopamine, adrenal, cortisol.

I have had a Androbalance test on my cortisol.  The results where that I was just within the lower part of the reference range:
7:30 - Cortisol 2.2   ref 1.5-15
12:00 - Cortisol 0.50  ref 0.30-5.0
18:00 - Cortisol 0.30 ref 0.30-5.0
22:00 - Cortisol 0.30 ref 0.20-2.5

Because of my facial muscular pains I am seeing a Maxillofacial consultant next week.  Could be interesting if he has to do a MRI scan if anything else shows up. I'm not sure for the scans work, it could be a red herring.  Either way if interesting I will post my findings here.


I would like to add, that on my journey, I have found the following to help with energy levels as well as maintaining good health (even though at times we feel like were three times our age)
1. Hemp seed oil - this has been described as the worlds super food.  It contain all essential 9 amino acids as well as the perfect balance of Omega 3 and 6. As well as minerals such as magnesium and calcium to name a few.  I would recommend this as I am starting to feel the benefit only after three weeks ( you feel the full benefit after 12 weeks.  Hemp seed oil is better than fish oil or flax see because its plasma cells are the same as our plasma cells in o0ur blood, allowing the goodness to get straight to work.  Its main benefits is that is restores the myelin sheath around nerves (this is like the plastic insulation around your bodies internal wires)
2. Magnesium Taurate is the best form of magnesium I have taken.  After much research I have found this form seems to ease some of the symptoms (especially my anxiety).
3. Zinc - i have read us men lose zinc on ejaculation

All of the above are just my findings and I hope you find it useful in anyway.  I am a great believer that what works for me might not work for you and likewise, but there is only good to come out of sharing what findings we have all made to piece this frustrating puzzle together.

I am so glad I found you all on this forum.  If there is one thing that keeps me going is the saying: if it doesn't kill us it will only make us stronger.

(sorry abut the essay!)






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Offline prosodye

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1061 on: 18/08/2008 15:38:02 »
(After writing this post and registering I noticed that the forum rules specify no sexual content. I was going to stop, but I did a search and found another post about it. I hope this type of discussion won't be deemed inappropriate.)


Hi. I would like to relate my very personal story of an unusual condition that I have been plagued with. I am close to 40 years old now, and ever since puberty I have had serious problems in the days immediately following ejaculation. My first symptom was acute back pain in the days following, at whatever age it was, perhaps around 14. After a few years it changed to an impaired cognitive condition, which I would describe as definite mental illness, in which thinking becomes very difficult, and it feels horrible in a way that can not be described. I'm sure specific neurotransmitters are depleted or something, but the cause of such a reaction is what I have never been able to understand. This has occurred following both nocturnal emissions and sexual activity. I avoid sex to keep my mind healthy, which means staying single and avoiding sexual imagery that might lead to a sexual dream and a nocturnal emission (they occur easily for me due to pronounced PE).

My biggest improvement in the condition occurred about 5 years ago when I stopped consuming milk products. I have no idea why or how this could be related, another weird piece of puzzle that I can not put together. I have searched the internet and haven't really found much to assist my understanding of this. I have found reference to reports of “post orgasmic illness syndrome” which sounds similar, but I don’t know the details of the cases involved.




John 


I can't believe somebody posted that, oh, it's wicked! Thank you John for that.
I've been using and abusing myself and with partners since a very young age, maybe 12 until a few years ago only, I'm horrified to say, being brought by very harsch parents, only child for 11 years, stuck in a bedroom for most of the time except for school, I was spending my time either reading (Telly was not allowed) or masturbating 6 or 7 times a day! Then it became nearly impossible to stop... eventually I managed to get away from that obsession completely a few years ago staying mainly celibate nearly all the time and being cautious as to not further deplete myself. My levels of energy are still really low and unintentional ejaculation at night with or without semen loss is hard to deal with.
I have hyperlordosis on the lumbar region, bad disc on the L5-S1 area with broken pars interarticularis, sacroileite with osteosclerosis, ...the whole place there in the lower back is a mess, which is not surprising after all that masturbation, and I developed slowly spondylolysthesis affecting the joints a little bit everywhere.
I stopped taking the whole load of NSAI etc maybe 4 years ago, and began meditating, sometimes as much as 10 hours a day and quit masturbation in september 2005, three years ago, which is not much.
At the same time I began changing my SAD diet. I had already stopped meat and fish and I slowly stopped gluten casein etc as well, to follow the "regime Seignalet", and my health improved dramatically.
 Writing down all the dates here gives me another awareness into my progression, it is the first time I think about how long I have been doing this or that!..
At the same time, before 2005, I was smoking loads of pot, I think it was the only thing that kept me going in spite of the extremely low energy, fuzzy brain, fear of social situations etc... and I quit smoking more or less at the same time when I quit masturbating. Geez I thought all that was so much longer ago...
I am now a raw foodist for 4 months or nearly, since the 25 April of this year, and it helps tremendously, having an alkaline system all the time... mostly thanks to green smoothies.
Still it does not resolve everything. I come involuntarily at night as soon as I go through too much cleaning, mostly from food ; if I fast, eat less, stop fruits, or stop fats, any small change now that purifies my system be it food , meditation or yoga, rapidly ends up in ongoing involuntary emissions at night, I have to be careful not to have a very pure diet! Even more so lately that I have been taking OxCgen and MMS ( the sodium chlorite turning in chlorine dioxide with the citric acid addition).  I can feel them having a very strong effect on the Candida, too strong an effect, the die-off is too severe, so I have ordered THreelac and Betain HCL, to approach it on another angle, as I am sure my years of SAD and sex have resulted in overblooming Candida, as the main problem inducing POIS, I always have itchy scalp, inner ears, anus... I have hope these will really help.
RAW chocolate with maca, suma, purple corn also help a lot. I also have a lot of raw spices from garlic to Cayenne.
There would be more to say but for a first post...
Thank you for reading, this forum is awesome.

Prosodye
« Last Edit: 18/08/2008 16:08:36 by prosodye »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1062 on: 18/08/2008 19:44:40 »
WELCOME questforlife and prosodye!

Thank you, thank you, for sharing your experiences and life history! I have had POIS for at least 30 years (I can't recall clearly before that) and I have not given up searching. I'm so glad because otherwise I wouldn't have found this POIS Forum!

Don't forget to look at (our very own) girlwind's POIS Video!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g
« Last Edit: 18/08/2008 19:47:48 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1063 on: 18/08/2008 20:02:52 »
SEVERE JET LAG (lasting DAYS and DAYS)
PERIODIC SEVERE DEPRESSION
EXTREME DIFFICULTY WITH MONDAY WORK RE-ENTRY (far beyond "Monday Blues" - can last till Thursday!)
DIFFICULTY SWITCHING ENVIRONMENTS (attach easily)
EXERCISE PRODUCES BAD EFFECT, e.g., anxiety...wired!!

Do any of these seem familiar? I wonder sometimes if the same crazy POIS mechanism is responsible or somehow associated with these symptoms.
« Last Edit: 18/08/2008 20:09:27 by demografx »

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1064 on: 19/08/2008 00:40:27 »

Its good you didnt stay on Trt for long as you could of shut down your natural T production and then you would have to be on T shots for life
but that is, if your T levels were ok to begin with.


Now you're scaring me. I was on TRT for some months. I was told by a top urologist that it could take 6+ months for my natural T production to come back strong. But I think there are complicating factors since I was low in libido due to depression and inactivity. I don't think numbers tell the whole story, and certainly not over the internet without a physician.

Sorry i did not mean to scare you but I will be honest as Iam rather worried about your situation.

Urologists are generally not up to date in the hormone fields from what i have read on peoples
experiences on the Anabolicminds and mesomorphosis forums.

Anti Aging medicine practitioners are more up to date today
from the peoples experiences in the above forums for hormonal/ adrenal,sexual, general well being problems.

I had an experience with an Uro as he did not feel the need to test any of the hormones that effect
Testosterone and libido. All he did was prescribe me iboprofen for the migraines post orgasm.

I had printed out several articles on what hormones to test for but he had a read of it for
20 secs and put it down.

I had asked him to check my Estradiol levels but he scoffed at it and said " What for? It is a female hormone ".

LOL !


At that time I didnt have the knowledge to come back with the reasoning ... but now I just say to myself
why on earth did my personal Doctor refer me to an Urologist for hormone/neuro problems and
one that doesnt check all the hormones/neuros that are related to overall well being and sexual health?

Your Urologist assumed that your own natural T production was strong enough to restart T on its own without any AI or HCG* and
after months of TRT without any AI to control E2 and any Hcg to keep your balls from making any T on its own.

All the while not testing you either via blood, urine, saliva for scientific data to prove what was really
going on inside your body.

When on T replacement, the body recognises the exogenous testosterone and signals the pituitary to stop sending
signals to LH and FSH to stop making its own testosterone. Thats why people on TRT will have out of the range low
numbers of LH and FSH since the body has plenty of T from the outside source and doesnt make any on its own.

Now I think i read you were getting the T shots done once every 2 weeks ?

If it was once every 2 weeks(caveman approach) this would have caused massive spikes in your Estradiol(E2) levels
furthur shutting down your own T production as your body sees the high amount of Estrogen
and that itself shuts down T. Also giving you the effects of high E2 which can cause emotional issues and plenty of others.


What iam really concerned about is, that why on earth did your Urologist not check your levels of at least:

Total Testosterone
Bioavailable Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estradiol
DHT
PSA (for more senior patients)
Prolactin

During t shots and 1 month after the Trt ?

There is no other way to know how your body is doing exactly without these tests.

You may be the lucky one and your E2 levels may have dropped to an optimal range and your LH and FSH
increased on its own without hcg/hmg and then your T production would be back up to the previous range before Trt
but we are just guessing with scientific data to prove.

My advice is to definetly get these hormones checked as it will tell you how your overall T production is doing
after your TRT without any Hcg or Ai to restart its own T production.

There will be an analysis done by a physician from ZRT on the test sheet provided as well as some
advice if your numbers are bad. Heres some of them :

http://www.zrtlab.com/Page.aspx?nid=401


I will upload a TRT article written by a Dr John Crissler who is a leading Anti Aging expert to back up
what Ive said above.

*HCG

Benefits of HCG supplementation:
1. Aesthetic maintenance of testicular size
2. Maintaining activity of testicular Leydig cells - promoting natural testosterone production - preventing primary hypogonadism
3. Improving sex drive greatly (perhaps more so than just with testosterone replacement

Written by a Physician, Psychiatrist, Behavioral Neuroendocrinology, Immunology, and Nutrition = Psychiatry in Dr Romeo B. Mariano.

I use the labs mentioned as it has been recommened by either Dr Mariano, Dr Shippen or Dr Crissler
on the Anabolicminds and mesomorphosis forums. They are regarded pretty highly in the Anti Aging field
and I do my best to read all of their posts to try pick up some knowledge from them.

Also many of the reputable posters on those forums recommended these labs and there is a few more to
pick from.

That took me over a hour as had orgasm today and was feeling the effects of POIS , got it done though.

Depression. I will look up on Dr Mariano & Dr Shippen & Dr Crisslers posts for what hormones,
neuros, lifestyles, diets etc that effects depression. I too suffered from this due to POIS.

My memory is bad today from POIS as Ive read up alot on this  but will re gather and post.




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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1065 on: 19/08/2008 00:52:06 »


TRT -A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS-


       by --John Crisler, DO

File to large so here is a link for you demografx :

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/men-s-health-forum/trt-a-recipe-success-19856.html

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Offline questforlife

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1066 on: 19/08/2008 01:07:14 »
Welcome Questforlife. Thnaks your for your very very good post.
About your cortisol test :
Did you made it days following after ejaculation ?
I think the flu-like state can be a sign of cortisol depletion.
My current diet help me to reduce symptoms.
Michael talked about a very interesting supplment : cortitrol.

I think we should test only one supplement at time if possible.

Scientific study on cortitrol :
http://www.nsekmall.com/images/datacenter/train/FORM23_1.pdf

Anxiety, panic attacks and hormones:
http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-howard.pdf

DHEA can be converted to cortisol



I did not do the tests within days of ejaculation.  I am thinking about having the tests done again as it has been almost 1 year since these results.  It would most definitely be interesting to see the difference especially if the tests are taken after ejaculation to see if cortisol levels are effected. Of course I will post my results for all who are interested to see. 

As from today I have started taking garlic supplement based on comment made on earlier posts in this thread (plus the fact it seems to have many other health benefits)

I will post my findings with any noticeable effects.

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1067 on: 19/08/2008 01:58:41 »
A good post about what hormones/neuros causes depression  by Dr Mariano :


Originally Posted by chip douglas


Q.

Dr. John told me that depression in and of itself increases pro inflammatory cytokines inhibiting both GH and Testosterone.

So this would mean Dysthymia can be a cause for low TT in the 400 range ?

Why then if depression can bring on low T, that we see so many men on TRT ?

My point among those men (if my above correlation is not wrong) with low T, part may originate from depression, while others from overt low T.

Marianco, would you be so kind as to shed some light on this, so I better understand which comes first ?

Thankfully

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A.

It is not really useful to determine which came first. It is more useful to determine what is deficient or in excess to indicate what treatment would be best.

Depression can have multiple contributing factors. There may be a genetic tendency for having low serotonin levels, for example. There may be problems involving other neurotransmitters, hormones, and immune system cytokines such as dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA, glutamate, PEA, thyroid hormone, estrogens, testosterone, progesterone, DHEA, etc., etc. Only one of these contributing factors is testosterone. Depression can reduce GH and testosterone production. However, depression is often the endpoint of multiple system problems occurring at the same time.

Testosterone decreases with age, generally past the age of 30 in men. Depression does not always occur. A low testosterone may not be due to depression so much as genetic fators and age and other hormone imbalances, etc.. Testosterone deficiency can thus be also a multiple system problem, aside from age-related decline.

In many patients, a multiple system treatment would best address their problems. It would be nice if adding testosterone will solve everything. But this obviously is not the case with many patients. They still have problems even with high testosterone levels.

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1068 on: 19/08/2008 02:04:41 »
Another precise and clear informative post by Dr Mariano on how and what
neuros/hormones causes depression :

Originally Posted by chip douglas

Q.
Hi Marianco,

In his last book titled : ''Younger you'', Dr. Eric Braverman http://www.pathmed.com/ writes that Serotonin deficiency will often lead to depression and and as a result lead to other health issues such as :

Accelerated calcification
Lower sex drive, triggering andropause and menopause
Lowering of Testosterone leading to andropause
Lower estrogen, progesterone
Weaken the immune system
Accelerate skin aging

A. By Dr Mariano

This is one of several possible pathways. But it is too vague - the links are not clearly made. The problem is that there is no explanation as to why this all occurs - for example, what pathways are involved.

Looking at things from my point of view - that the mind is a fluid circuit involving multiple chemical messengers and multiple possible metabolic cascades/pathways:

If one specifically kills off serotonin-producing neurons - for example, by using Ecstasy or Fenfluramine (part of the FenPhen tablet that is now off the market) - then one can envison one possible cascade (out of many):

1. A serotonin deficit leads to a reduction in thyroid hormone production (which depends on serotonin, one of many cofactors).
2. A serotonin deficit also leads to loss of control over norepinephrine production (since serotonin neurons help reduce norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons) - leading to an increase in norepinephrine production.
3. The reduction in thyroid hormone production leads to a reduction in steroid hormone production from the testes - particularly a reduction in testosterone production, then estrogen production.
4. The increase in norepinephrine production leads to an increase in ACTH production, which leads to an increase in adrenal cortex hormone production.
5. Over time the chronic increase in norepinephrine production leads to adrenal fatigue, and reduced adrenal cortex hormone production.
6. Adrenal fatigue leads to a reduction in progesterone, DHEA, Cortisol, Pregnenolone, Aldosterone, testosterone, estrogen production.
7. Adrenal fatigue, lower thyroid hormone levels, lower testosterone levels leads to even higher norepinephrine production.
8. Lower thyroid and adrenal hormone production leads to an increase in inflammatory versus anti-inflammatory signals on the immune system, leading to an increase in inflammatory responses.
9. The increase in inflammatory responses leads to the development of atherosclerosis - and calcification - of the arteries.
10. The increase in inflammatory responses versus antiinflammatory responses leads to weakening of the immune system - inflammation, for example, in barrier cells such as the skin, allows pathogenic bacteria and viruses an easier entry into the body. Inflammation precedes infections and various diseases.
11. The reduction in thyroid, DHEA, testosterone and the general increase in inflammatory signals leads to a reduction in IGF-1 production from growth hormone in the liver.
12. The reduced production of estrogens, IGF-1, and thyroid hormone leads to an increase aging of the skin.
13. Lower thyroid hormone can lead to lower serotonin, lower dopamine, lower GABA production, and a further increase in norepinephrine production.
14. Low thyroid, testosterone, GABA, dopamine, adrenal hormone production, and higher norepinephrine production can lead to a reduction in sex drive.

I do not necessarily agree with the notion that lowering sex drive triggers andropause or menopause, or that lowering testosterone leads to andropause. These are overgeneralizations.

Andropause is an age-related phenomenon - due to age-related decline in the pituitary’s ability to make LH or due to age-related decline in the testes’ ability to produce testosterone.

Andropause is not necessarily related to a serotonin deficit - since a serotonin deficit can occur at any age, be present due to genetics (thus one is born serotonin deficient), or be induced due to drug abuse or medication adverse effects, etc. If Andropause is specifically due to a serotonin deficit, this would lead to the nonsensical scenario of a male newborn with born with a serotonin deficit being diagnosed with andropause.

Similarly, menopause is an age-related phenomenon, not necessarily related to a serotonin deficit. Rather is is related to the end of the ovaries’ ability to produce eggs. Women are born with a limited number of eggs. If the last egg is ovulated or the egg-shell surrounded the woman’s eggs become so fibrous over time that the egg cannot get out, then menopause starts.

Also, the pathway delineated above is just one of several possible scenarios. Thus any given person may take a different path with a different outcome.

For example, if a serotonin deficit occurs, then dopamine production is unleashed since serotonin production leads to a reduction in dopamine production from dopamine producing cells. Serotonin and Dopamine are joined at the hip in production.

The increase in dopamine may then lead to an increase in testosterone production, an increase in sex drive, etc. An increase in testosterone production may then increase thyroid hormone production (though it can also reduce it in some men). The end-point may then be very different or is opposite to what was previously described.

Lower serotonin may lead to depressed mood, but then it can also lead to a non-depressed mood depending on how high dopamine and it’s metabolic cascades go. Lower serotonin may then alternatively lead to violent behavior in some people (e.g. in XYY chromasome disease, the men have lower serotonin levels and tend to be more violent).

Given the possible pathways involved, it would then be up to the physician treating the patient to try to see which pathways the patient may be going through. This allows the physician to then see where the pathophysiology of illness is, then custom design a treatment to address that particular patient’s situation. One has to dance with the patient's responses. To a physician, this is like playing jazz. The ability to improvise is the mark of a good physician.

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1069 on: 19/08/2008 02:09:37 »
An interesting post by Dr Mariano in how Fish oil can help depression as well
as other things :


Originally Posted by chip douglas
Q.

Is it known whether fish oils generally affect more serotonin over dopamine ? I know they can increase both, and which one will be most enhanced may vary from one individual to another, as with other supps. or drugs, but generally speaking, is what I'd like to know.

When i take fish oil, my well-being is enhanced significantly, I feel mellower, less in a hurry, my sex drive picks up, I have better concentration, and smile more. No doubt fish oil's good stuff.

Thanks

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A. By Dr Mariano

I haven't seen data one way or the other.

Fish Oil has numerous mechanisms of action. Directly increasing sertonin or dopamine is not one of them. An increase in dopamine or serotonin may be final effect in the chain of responses to the presence Fish Oil. However, I haven't seen measurements.

Fish Oil can help stabilize mood and reduce depression. Which of its numerous mechaisms of action does this is nto known to me yet.

The dose is important since Omega-3-fatty acids are in a balance with Omega-6-fatty acids when it comes to function. For example, Omega-3-fatty acids results in a reduction in inflammation, while Omega-6-fatty acid results in an increase in inflammation. Both functions need to be in a balance for wellness. Inflammation can be good or bad.

When treating bipolar disorder, for example, with fish oil, at a certain dose, it helps stabilize mood and reduce depression. At higher doses, it may destabilize mood and worsen a person's condition. Again, the watchword is balance.

---------------------------------------------------

I experience the same effects from the above poster chip douglas from taking fish oil plus it helps
tremendiously with my joints, tendons and overall inflammation.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1070 on: 19/08/2008 02:18:26 »
MICHAEL

I do recall now that my T-levels were tested before and after, and did PSA's during TRT. When T got too high, I quit the T. It just became a pain in the neck.

This was all my idea, it wasn't classic TRT. The docs agreed to my testing T against POIS. And privately, I wanted to try a boost in libido, which I got.

I'm in the same place as before, aging, low libido, ED. Too tired to try anything else at this stage.

Levitra cures 75% of my POIS, but after 30+ years of POIS I lean now toward near-celibacy. I don't even want 25% of that stupid POIS!

But I enjoy helping here. And I think there is something in "my Levitra story" that can help others.

Many thanks, Michael!  

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1071 on: 19/08/2008 02:20:20 »
demografx, I made a comment earlier on how E2 effects libido and overall sexual health.
Here is a post made by Dr Mariano on how Estradiol(E2) effects sex drive:

What estradiol level is best for any individual often needs to be determined by trial and error. It is unique for each individual. Most do best around 30 pg/ml. But some do best at lower and higher levels. For example, I have a 65 y.o. patient with a total testosterone of 840 ng/dl and an estradiol of 47 pg/ml. He's having the time of his life - able to make love numerous times each night - after more than a decade of having no sex. The estradiol level works for him without side effects. Some may do better with much loser levels of estradiol - the response is highly individualistic.



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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1072 on: 19/08/2008 02:21:51 »
MICHAEL

I do recall now that my T-levels were tested before and after, and did PSA's during TRT. When T got too high, I quit the T. It just became a pain in the neck.

This was all my idea, it wasn't classic TRT. The docs agreed to my testing T against POIS. And privately, I wanted to try a boost in libido, which I got.

I'm in the same place as before, aging, low libido, ED. Too tired to try anything else at this stage.

Levitra cures 75% of my POIS, but after 30+ years of POIS I lean now toward near-celibacy. I don't even want 25% of that stupid POIS!

But I enjoy helping here. And I think there is something in "my Levitra story" that can help others.

Many thanks, Michael!  


You are very much welcome demografx.

Oh boy ... 30 years of suffering POIS, that is pure torture and no wonder you have those feelings now.
Congrats on your success with Levitra. I will ask Dr Mariano how Levitra may possibly alter the neuro/hormone
pathways to help the POIS symptoms.

If you dont mind us knowing, how old are you now?

« Last Edit: 19/08/2008 02:25:03 by Michael8028 »

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Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1073 on: 19/08/2008 02:28:02 »
Terrific! And I'm glad you said placebo effect. I was fooled by testosterone shot. It "worked" beautifully the first time, then pfffttt.
Placebo effect is good, though, it shows how badly the body/mind wants to recover!

I think the first shot of testosterone really does work and makes you feel so much better. But I too found that it quickly stops working, within 10 days. I think this is because it initially suppresses stress hormones such as cortisol and CRF, but the stress hormone circuit recovers back.

I think I found the answer for this :

Post by Dr Mariano :

Conversely, when one is deprived of testosterone (and hence dopamine) for long periods of time due to hypogonadism, one can get a high during the first few weeks of testosterone treatment since the brain becomes supersensitive to dopamine when it has been deprived of it (e.g. making more dopamine receptors to pick up the weaker dopamine signals). Unfortunately, as the brain then gets use to the higher dopamine levels, it will develop some tolerance, and libido will drop off - though we often wish that hopefully a good amount remains.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1074 on: 19/08/2008 03:28:39 »

If you dont mind us knowing, how old are you now?


Michael, I'm 62 going on 18 [;D]

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1075 on: 19/08/2008 03:34:14 »

I will ask Dr Mariano how Levitra may possibly alter the neuro/hormone pathways to help the POIS symptoms.


Michael, thank you again! I am very much looking forward to Dr Mariano's thoughts!

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1076 on: 19/08/2008 04:23:08 »
Hello Coreman and others newcomers , thanks for this long list of new treatments !

Hi Questforlife, It's good to have your input here. I had the same experience with calcium/magnesium, natural supplement. It took me 3 weeks to feel a special effect (strenghtened nerves and better sleep in pois state). However at the same time calcium tends to give me more mental confusion, i don't know why. I tried to take dolomite which contain calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate (2/1) and it was overall a good experience. After that i saw dolomite may contain too much lead so i stopped.
Nutrition books are saying  calcium / phosphorus ratio should be 1/1. Cereals, meat, eggs contains a lot of phosphorus and no calcium. (perhaps we can consider meat and eggs are refined foods because we don't eat the bones and the shell !). They are talking about a special cure, good for some types of depressions: Wash an egg and put it (intact, with the shell) in pure lemon juice for one night, Then drink the resulting mixture each morning (perhaps for ten days i don't know). (I never tried this!) 

I remember that licorice shouldn't be taken for a long time because it can harm adrenals. I read this in a book a long time ago. Here is a link about this :
Note that DGL (deglycyrrhizinated licorice), a preferred extract, has had compounds harmful to the adrenal glands removed. http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1071.html

I have had facial muscle pain too. I think it was caused by fish oil supplement (one very rich in EPA). Very probably a homeopathic treatment taken two months before was also involved.

Also I want to say i have a 3 weeks of insomnia if i take only one pill of B-complex 50mg.
(I had also a bad experience of insomnia  with rhodiola, (herb supposed to help me). I can't drink coffee which give me irritability and insomnia..)
One of the best relief I found was to stop all supplements and added vitamins, minerals, additives in food (I read labels) . This has a calming effect and increase my quality of life. I don't say don't take supplements, but take a break sometimes to see how you feel without.

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1077 on: 19/08/2008 17:48:11 »

BTW dhea orally 50mg a day can convert to bad estrogens messing the good to bad estrogen ratio. It depends on your liver. For no side effects from taking dhea take Dhea sublingual or rub dhea cream where the Dhea is not passed through the liver.

Although rubbing dhea cream wont work if one has Hypothyroidism as the cream wont be absorbed.


Alot of people with adrenal problems also have Hypothyroidism as the Thyroid hormone wont be received through the body when there is a lack of Cortisol which can cause anxiety etc

Im not sure if you posted your levels but what was your 4x cortisol and dhea results?

If you havent done so I would ask your Doc too check Free T3, TSH for Thyroid and Estradiol, Estrones and Progesterone too if your experiencing alot of anxiety.


Hello Michael8028--I have tested my hormones (using the salivary tests) many times over the years and have a
pattern of low morning cortisol and low DHEA. I now take 7 Keto DHEA, because I had problems with the regular DHEA.
From the symptoms I had, I am assuming the problem was DHEA converting to "bad" estrogen. As I understand the
7 Keto DHEA bypasses the liver, which corresponds with what you've said above. I've never tried DHEA cream. Where do
you find that?

As for thyroid... I have had a pattern of "low normal" range thyroid, which I think was really a TOO LOW thyroid. (This
was confirmed by testing my first-thing-in-the morning basal body temperature, which was definitely too low at the
time.) To remedy the thyroid, I took kelp tablets 2X/day and after about a year, my thyroid actually tested in the high
normal range. So I stopped the kelp for a while and then backed down to 1 kelp tab 1X/day. I have not re-tested my
thyroid for a couple years and plan to do so soon. I usually get Free T3, T4, and TSH, as you mention above.

I will also try out the lab you mentioned for the saliva tests.

What is the best way to keep the thyroid in balance with the adrenals? Let me know what info you have on this.
« Last Edit: 19/08/2008 17:50:05 by girlwind »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1078 on: 20/08/2008 00:50:54 »
Demografx: Levitra might cause a release of nitric oxide in your system, which could help with a heart condition that may be aggravated by orgasm.  This correlates to Imre1's situation.


« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 00:54:05 by Counterpoints »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1079 on: 20/08/2008 01:03:08 »
I'd like to reiterate a point I made earlier.  I feel we really need to push for PET and other functional imaging scans while feeling symptomatic. These scans will almost certainly (and immediately!) shed light on whatever the underlying problem is.  These are the scans that are used to test the efficacy of anti-depressants, to diagnose and treat a large number of neurological (and psychiatric) problems, and to study the effects of orgasm!  You can use them to see brain activity.  If a doctor won't order it because POIS isn't a conventional reason to have a scan, we could pay for it ourselves.  It would cost at least $2000, but considering how much people spend on psychotherapy, etc., and the incredible potential such a scan has, I don't think this is a large price.   Please read about PET, fMRI (functional MRI), and SPECT, and the risks involved, and seriously consider pushing for one.  PET has the most promise, from what I know.





« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 01:11:16 by Counterpoints »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1080 on: 20/08/2008 01:43:53 »
Counterpoints, you make a very compelling case. But wouldn't we need someone who could read the results in relation to POIS? Or are the results straightforward/self-evident?

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1081 on: 20/08/2008 03:11:56 »
I don't know a lot about PET scans but it seems to be a good idea. I'll read on this. We'll have to determine who has the symptoms of most of us, and take several pois cases to confirm the results. I guess a doctor must give a prescription for this test and then he'll be able to interpret the results. A test out of pois and in pois would have been preferable to eliminate any condition not related to orgasm.
« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 03:15:09 by martin88 »

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1082 on: 20/08/2008 03:19:57 »

(1) I ordered the neuro test from here :

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroscan_neurotransmitter_test.html

(2) ...order these tests through ZRT labs, this is where I got mine done...


Michael, you sound very knowledgeable; how do you know these people are good?

This is one of my favorites unanswered questions here !

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1083 on: 20/08/2008 03:45:52 »
It should be quite easy to find people who would be willing to help interpret the results.  I know of several expert medical doctors who would be willing to do it.   In the US,  and in other countries, you can pay to have this scan done without having it ordered by a doctor; this is what we would likely need to do.  A general practitioner would not be willing (or likely able) to order these scans -- in fact, most would know very little about them.  They are generally research tools, and in medical practice, mostly used to diagnose and treat cancer -- PET shows brain metabolism, and cancerous tissue is very metabolically active.  A neurologist, of all doctors, would be most willing and able to order the scan.

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_Emission_Tomography
It is explains PET well at an introductory level.



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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1084 on: 20/08/2008 03:52:28 »

(1) I ordered the neuro test from here :

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroscan_neurotransmitter_test.html

(2) ...order these tests through ZRT labs, this is where I got mine done...


Michael, you sound very knowledgeable; how do you know these people are good?

This is one of my favorites unanswered questions here !

Martin, he answered the questions today at Post #191285.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1085 on: 20/08/2008 04:00:24 »
I don't know a lot about PET scans but it seems to be a good idea. I'll read on this. We'll have to determine who has the symptoms of most of us, and take several pois cases to confirm the results. I guess a doctor must give a prescription for this test and then he'll be able to interpret the results. A test out of pois and in pois would have been preferable to eliminate any condition not related to orgasm.

This sounds exciting, do we have any idea as to the cost?
« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 04:10:02 by demografx »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1086 on: 20/08/2008 04:55:00 »
Demo: If a doctor orders the test (as I said, it would likely have to be a neurologist -- a family doctor would hardly know anything about PET), your insurance would cover it.  We would not need a doctor's approval to have the scan done though -- we'd just have to pay.  I think this will be the case, since in order to have a doctor order the scan, you'd have to be referred to a very good neurologist who isn't worried about his reputation or politics: it's expensive, and so a doctor would be unlikely to order the scan for an unconventional reason.  PET uses radioactive tracers that are produced in cyclotrons.   These cost about $2000. 

I am going to look into paying for one for myself.   

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1087 on: 20/08/2008 05:08:22 »
Demo: If a doctor orders the test (as I said, it would likely have to be a neurologist -- a family doctor would hardly know anything about PET), your insurance would cover it.  We would not need a doctor's approval to have the scan done though -- we'd just have to pay.  I think this will be the case, since in order to have a doctor order the scan, you'd have to be referred to a very good neurologist who isn't worried about his reputation or politics: it's expensive, and so a doctor would be unlikely to order the scan for an unconventional reason.  PET uses radioactive tracers that are produced in cyclotrons.   These cost about $2000. 

I am going to look into paying for one for myself.  

So if we have a "study" done - selected from our membership here - in-POIS and out-of-POIS, we're looking at a 5-figure cost for just 5 people! I'm sure a few people here are looking at this and saying/thinking "gulp". Maybe I can play piano on a street corner..............
« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 05:10:33 by demografx »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1088 on: 20/08/2008 05:54:04 »
They have used these scans on large groups of people for various studies though.  If we could interest someone who is doing a study with PET scans, on sexual response, for example (this is common enough), then we wouldn't have to pay.

It's costly, yeah.  fMRI would be a lot cheaper, but I'm not sure if it would be as good.  I am going to look into this more.  I am fairly certain PET would be the best scan.  I am pretty sure PET would identify the underlying problem -- if that is the case, then $2000 is worth the return for me.  I'd say this is an avenue we as group should try to explore -- first by trying to get these scans without any cost to us. 

Also, I don't want to raise hopes too much, but there are some MD PhDs who have expressed interest in studying our situation, and have looked at this thread.  So we are not as isolated as it may seem.
« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 05:55:58 by Counterpoints »

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Offline Coreman

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1089 on: 20/08/2008 15:15:19 »
Congratulations Girlwind, your formula sounds good!
I also experienced a strong interconnection..

1. Going back to serotonin, I am also convinced that in some cases (like mine) low serotonin levels are a significant factor in P.O.I.S problems.

2. Besides, I'd like to share that I have a good experience with Cortitrol, after 6 days of taking. I experienced that after having taken 2 Cortitrol, a daytime emission (!) did not result in  the well-known feeling of "I am just about to fall asleep", which I found very interesting. I could get me through the day much easier, however, POIS symptoms appeared the next morning. It might have delayed something.
 

3. Tyrosine:  I've finished my test on Tyrosine, unfortunately, the positive results are negligible. It must have had a placebo effect. (Wikipedia was right, but I gave it a day in court.)   

It was really promising to read through the posts with new ideas. PET test is also a brilliant idea!

Take care,

Coreman.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1090 on: 20/08/2008 16:06:48 »

...I don't want to raise hopes too much, but there are some MD PhDs who have expressed interest in studying our situation, and have looked at this thread.  So we are not as isolated as it may seem.


Counterpoints, THANKS FOR THE GOOD NEWS!

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1091 on: 20/08/2008 16:51:46 »
COUNTERPOINTS, if someone wants a PET scan of in-POIS and then a 2nd scan out-of-POIS, would that cost $4,000?

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1092 on: 20/08/2008 17:34:52 »
COUNTERPOINTS, if someone wants a PET scan of in-POIS and then a 2nd scan out-of-POIS, would that cost $4,000?

The largest cost is the radioactive tracer they inject.  Once this in your system, they should be able to perform scans for a few hours.  So it would be possible for someone to have a scan symptom free, have an orgasm, watch what happens to the brain during orgasm, and take a look at what's happening when we feel symptoms.

So $2000 is the answer, if it's well organized.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1093 on: 20/08/2008 19:09:01 »
COUNTERPOINTS, if someone wants a PET scan of in-POIS and then a 2nd scan out-of-POIS, would that cost $4,000?

The largest cost is the radioactive tracer they inject.  Once this in your system, they should be able to perform scans for a few hours.  So it would be possible for someone to have a scan symptom free, have an orgasm, watch what happens to the brain during orgasm, and take a look at what's happening when we feel symptoms.

So $2000 is the answer, if it's well organized.

That's encouraging. Although sometimes my POIS symptoms don't get full-blown till a day later.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1094 on: 20/08/2008 19:19:09 »
LIBIDO

Mine is low. There are ways to improve it, but why? It just leads to you-know-what. So I remain low.

Sorry to be so negative, you know I'm mostly upbeat. But this is the only place I can vent with what's really going on in that part of my life. Thank you for letting me do that.
« Last Edit: 20/08/2008 19:26:16 by demografx »

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Offline Animus

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1095 on: 21/08/2008 00:50:42 »
Greetings,
I'm glad I found this discussion forum. I think I have POIS too, although I have a slightly different spin.
I've been through a lot in the last 5 years. I'm now 38 years old.
In January 2003, I bought and used a product called VigRX.  VigRX are those "penis pills" that enlarge the penis and increase the amount and intensity of the ejaculation.  It works by causing more blood to rush into the genitals during sexual excitement, and thereby slowly enlarging the penis over time because of the ballooning effect.

I found the product to be very effective. My penis increased in girth from about 3" to 5", although length was not affected.  My testicles enlarged to about twice their original size, and the sac became more pendulous. I ejaculated twice as much semen, and the quality of semen was whiter, thicker and ribbon-like.
But it soon began to feel that this added intensity was becoming very taxing to my system and that I was undergoing some rather dramatic systemic changes because of it.

Most troubling to me was:

1. Extreme exhaustion after ejaculation lasting days. Feeling utter weakness and intense sleepiness. I sometimes needed to sleep 16 hours after ejaculating. It took me up to 7 days to recover from an ejaculation.  during that time I was very weak.

2. Intense hunger and craving for protein, fats, and sweets. Weight gain. My food consumption increased a lot in the days after ejaculation. It felt like my body was trying to refuel from a complete drain of resources.  And the overall fat gain felt like again a hedge against this total depletion. Having previously been a rather well-balanced physical specimen- enjoying good fitness and vigour- I became something of a "sex-machine"! It felt like all my body's resources were being diverted to the genitals, and to semen production. My genitals became turbo-charged while the rest of me withered away and I became grossly out of balance.
I could actually feel a higher level of activity and movement in my testicles. They would also tend to ache a lot.

3. dizziness.  Inability to stand up alone with my eyes closed. I experienced a minor concussion one night when I fell over backward in the dark on the way to the bathroom. I could remain vertical and walk but I had to consciously keep correcting myself.

4. Hot flashes. Those are when the skin suddenly feels burning and feverish.

5. Increased perspiration. My shirts became soaked with sweat and the smell was much more pungent. Shirt armpits all got stained yellow. 

6. Poor digestion. I began to have constant diarrhea instead of hard, healthy stool. Stomach grumbled a lot. I to this day haven't had good healthy stool since 2003.

7. Jitteriness. Shakiness, feeling of overstimulation. This went along with the weakness. I felt a certain instability in my chest, instead of being relaxed. This effected my work, my relationships, and my ability to think and relax.

8. Inability to exercise.  Since taking VigRX I have not been able to run, bike, swim, lift weights, or do any aerobic activity.  Exercise causes me to become extremely weak for the next few days.  Also, it causes an intense stress to my body that is hard to recover from. I just don't have the internal resources to exert very much.  My body seems to save all that for sexual activity now.

9. Compromised immune system.  I began to catch colds much more easily, and catch flu.  Generally much more sickly. I needed to go to the hospital emergency room a few times.

10. Lack of control over my libido.  I would go through this cycle of intense sexual stimulation, where I would be compelled to masturbate or have sex.  It felt out of my control.

11. Belligerence. My personality changed dramatically. I think this was caused by the increase in testicle size, and the increase in testosterone. Although, interestingly, I was still within the normal range for testosterone levels, and for testicle size.  The normal range seems to be quite broad. But for my body it was too much.  Increased testosterone also caused my hairline to recede quickly.

12. Back and joint pain.  Feeling of deadness in my spine.  development of an  exaggerated curvature to my spine. Much neck problems. Pain and weakness in joints. I think this is also in common with the others who have posted here.

13.  Mental deterioration. Mental fogginess. I forgot how to spell words, and often couldn't find words to express myself. My writing also changed and I began to switch letters.

14. Mental depression.  In the days after ejaculation, I feel quite down and unable to socialize satisfactorally.

I've listed just the major symptoms, I think they match what others have felt with POIS.  But unlike some of you, I've not had POIS since puberty.  I developed a particularly strong version of it after taking VigRX- which caused in a way, a second puberty-  or a second major growth/ development of the genitals.

My life turned dramatically for the worse after all this happened. I no longer felt I was able to function in the world or take care of myself. I came near to really ending my life.  And I had to be hospitalized at a psychiatric ward.

Also, due to VigRX I developed an enlarged prostate- which causes incontinence.  The size of the prostate is directly effected by how much testosterone is produced.  Having enlared testicles causes enlargement of the prostate. Enlarged prostate can cause incontinence- and it did for me.  I became unable to control my bowel movements.  After my oriectomy, and the subsequent lessening of testosterone, it cured my incontinent urges. I'm also taking Flomax, a medicine to reduce the prostate- and that has worked quite well.

My understanding of the problem is that my sexual function became too demanding for my body.  My body in it's normal state couldn't support the amount of sexual activity that became demanded of it. And all these symptoms were a result of my body's greater expenditure of semen.  A lot of my problems were also caused by hormonal irregularity because of increased testicle size.
I reason that much of my problem is caused by the overproduction and overejaculation of semen. Or the production and ejaculation of semen beyond that which the body can comfortably tolerate.  There could be something to the orgasmic chemical release as well.  But I think the main cause is "overejaculation", and the cure for me is "dry ejaculation".

My solution was to remove the organs responsible for manufacturing semen.  The first and easiest to remove are the testes.
I had a "bilateral oriectomy".  This is the removal of both testicles. I experienced almost immediate relief after the surgery.  I went on a lowered dose of testosterone, which cured the dizziness, and the rampant libido, and the shakiness in my chest. It also cured the intense food cravings after ejaculation, and it cured the belligerence. My hairline returned to normal. It lessened the recovery time from 7 days to 2-3 days currently.

I also started taking a high dose of Prozac to combat the mental depression and cognitive problems.  That has helped me a lot also.

I still have the problems with exhaustion, back pain, diarrhea, inability to exercise, depression, and so on, after ejaculation. I have looked into what it would take to remove the other two organs which make semen.  Ultimately, I think that "dry ejaculation" will solve much of the problem. My body has not returned to normal levels of semen production, and it it still overproducing and over-expending due to the VigRX.

The testes are responsible really only for the sperm in semen, which comprises very little of the volume.  The majority of the seminal fluid is produced by the seminal vesicles and the prostate.
The next step for me, logically would be the removal the seminal vesicles, the cauterizing of the ejaculatory ducts, and perhaps the reduction of the prostate through a TURP.  These would cause me dry ejaculation.

I've arranged for this operation, but put it on hold because no one is recommending it, and it is expensive and time-consuming, and involves going out of the country. All of which I'm not sure is worth it right now, not yet.  But I keep the option open while I explore other options.

I'm curious what other people have done to effectively reduce their POIS symptoms.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1096 on: 21/08/2008 03:17:21 »
Animus, welcome to the POIS Forum. You can see a lot of what we've done to combat POIS by going through the previous posts (we're now on the 49th page of posts).
« Last Edit: 21/08/2008 18:13:29 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1097 on: 21/08/2008 03:38:12 »
Animus, girlwind, with help from guthrie put together a POIS YouTube you might like:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g
« Last Edit: 21/08/2008 18:14:59 by demografx »

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Offline Animus

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1098 on: 21/08/2008 07:00:51 »
Thank you for the welcome, demographx.  And the youtube presentation is very interesting.  I think it's very effective in describing the syndrome, and the issues surrounding it. Nice work!

I was wondering about the name of this disorder... Being post-orgasmic implies that it could effect women too- because as we know women too have orgasms.  But there aren't many women we know of with this problem, which leads me to think it might be called "post-ejaculatory illness syndrome".  Any thoughts on that? It seems to me the common cause is the ejaculation, perhaps, more than the orgasm?  But in men they are usually one and the same.

Any tips on how to change my username? I don't want that name searchable -- would like to protect my privacy!
Thanks.
« Last Edit: 21/08/2008 18:18:32 by demografx »

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Offline Guthrie

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1099 on: 21/08/2008 13:48:52 »
Actually, the person who made the youtube video--girlwind on this forum--is a woman!  So the name POIS seems to be an accurate one, even if many of the other currently-known cases are men.