Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13350 on: 27/05/2011 03:11:55 »
Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).

Demo,
I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.
Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.

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Offline Vincent M

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« Reply #13351 on: 27/05/2011 04:27:39 »

Demo, personally I think your remaining 20% is most likely caused by semen and if you eliminated semen production you would eliminate that 20%. However I base that mainly on Animus's successful surgery and his case is still only one case no matter how successful it was meaning there may be a possibility it won't work for everyone with POIS....
...
...
Perhaps this means fenugreek reduces POIS by reducing sperm production. Demo, did you say you tried fenugreek? If it didn't work for you maybe it's because you weren't producing sperm at the time.


VM, thank you!

And I will try fenugreek, daveman also suggested it.

But since I have Zero-sperm now, I wonder if it could still work?

My hunch is that if you try fenugreek it will just make you tired, but maybe it'll work since there's really no way I can know at this point. But the study said fenugreek lowered testosterone in the rats, and if you have low testosterone levels already then it might hurt you rather than help. I'm beginning to suspect that my normal testosterone levels were too high, which is why my anxiety was reduced when i started taking fenugreek, but that still doesn't explain why fenugreek helps with my physical POIS pains such as joint & muscle pain and eye burning unless those pains were caused by high anxiety.

It took me about two weeks to realize that fenugreek was having a positive impact on me. Also I'm not sure if fenugreek would still work for me without the garlic & milk I take with it, but I did go about a week without fenugreek and just took garlic w/ milk and felt awful the entire week. Then merely a couple days after I began taking fenugreek again I felt a lot better (maybe 30% relief from POIS, maybe more).
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13352 on: 27/05/2011 07:22:29 »
VincentM, How did you come across Fenugreek? Are there any sources on the internet that explain it's medicinal use?

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Offline Habibou

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« Reply #13353 on: 27/05/2011 10:51:48 »
Have you ever talk about increasing the semen production to see if the POIS is worst?
I saw that zinc + arginine worked for many people... i know it isn't a great test but it can make the research improve...  [:D]

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Offline Nightingale

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« Reply #13354 on: 27/05/2011 11:07:27 »
From our friend, Stefanie, at NORD


Dear Demo,

Despite what initially appeared to be enthusiasm on the part of Vesselin Dimov, MD, University of Chicago, and his colleague, Againdra K. Bewtra, MD, Creighton University,  I have not heard back from either of them after Dr. Dimov contacted me.
I did make two attempts at follow-up, but to no avail.  They both have excellent credentials, but they apparently are not interested in pursuing evaluations and testing.

There are others on my growing list of researchers who may be quite interested in evaluating men from the forum. So -- it's onward and upward!  There is no turning back! :-)

I will let you know as I hear from other physicians/researchers.

In the meantime, I understand that there have been discussions about a research grant sponsored by your group.  Excellent!!!!!  I am going to be sending information to you about NORD's research grant program for rare disorders -- our program may suit your needs perfectly! :-)





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Stephanie is so cool, glad to have her on our team!!

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13355 on: 27/05/2011 13:09:52 »

Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).



Demo,

I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.

Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.



Amazing! Your considerations above go a long way to confirm my longstanding hunch that my POIS is somehow related to my semen regeneration speed: in my depth-of-POIS-agony days - for 30+ years - my regen speed was like molasses. With testosterone treatment, my regen speed is RAPID, and my POIS has been whittled down drastically!

Just my hunch.


« Last Edit: 27/05/2011 15:28:34 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13356 on: 27/05/2011 15:33:11 »

Stephanie [from NORD] is so cool, glad to have her on our team!!


Yes she is, and so am I (glad to have her)!!
« Last Edit: 27/05/2011 17:45:16 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13357 on: 27/05/2011 15:40:02 »
Quote
To the French-speaking members: is this a good or bad translation from Google?

Some mistakes but it's correct.

I've contacted Alui by MP. I've proposed to use french (or other languages )in private messages but to keep english mainly on the forum. It's a good idea to open topics on ohter languages on the Pois Center forum.


Thank you, B_Jim!

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13358 on: 27/05/2011 20:13:01 »

Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).



Demo,

I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.

Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.



Amazing! Your considerations above go a long way to confirm my longstanding hunch that my POIS is somehow related to my semen regeneration speed: in my depth-of-POIS-agony days - for 30+ years - my regen speed was like molasses. With testosterone treatment, my regen speed is RAPID, and my POIS has been whittled down drastically!

Just my hunch.




Yes, I think putting it in terms of semen regeneration is intuitive for me too. And I think this could be a viable second theory to the auto-immune allergy theory proposed by Dr.Waldinger.

Incidentally, I'd like to send him a DVD copy of the TLC show. I noticed he has an address posted on his POIS website. Shall I try to send it there?...

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13359 on: 27/05/2011 20:47:15 »
Whoops, Animus, I almost forgot!! Yes, please send it there!

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Offline Vincent M

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« Reply #13360 on: 27/05/2011 20:48:51 »
VincentM, How did you come across Fenugreek? Are there any sources on the internet that explain it's medicinal use?

I found out about fenugreek here at the nsf forum and decided to try it since there were some people here who did quite well on it. I also tried Relora for the same reason, but I think it just made me tired however I did only take it for about 4 days.

I did a quick google search and it seems there are very few studies that have been done on fenugreek, but people claim it helps with diabetes and male hairloss and makes women produce more breast milk and some other things too but I forget what they are.
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13361 on: 27/05/2011 22:02:08 »
Animus, it would be great if the 2 POIS physician-authors also get the DVD, Dr Goldmeier and Dr Dexter, on our Collaborator's List.

If that's  asking a lot, let me know how I can assist. Or, since they're both in London we could simply alert them to the summer TLC airing?

Thank you very much for taking care of Dr Waldinger!

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13362 on: 27/05/2011 22:06:36 »
Daveman, should we add our Collaborator's List to the Newcomer Welcome Post?
http://72.52.181.21/collaborator_list.php

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13363 on: 27/05/2011 22:07:54 »

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Offline Wibin

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« Reply #13364 on: 27/05/2011 23:42:06 »
Hello, my name is Jamie, and I’m a male POIS sufferer. Whoa, that sounded tacky but I just had to say it out loud. [:D]

Much of what and how I felt after an O I attributed to POIS before even knowing about its existence. The thread here confirmed my understanding of my own reaction to stimuli. I, however, am not here to discuss about my problems, which to me are important of course  [:D], but rather to add to the insights, suggestions and theories regarding POIS.

First of all, my theories as to why I have POIS, or stronger withdrawal from euphoria than people on average (after all, question is of extent of the downfall) and how some supplements/medications affect me:

•   I’m a celiac, as in gluten intolerant. I had, however, been eating gluten for the first good 22 years of my life (I’m 27 now). My reactions to gluten were very slight in nature, and the tests came back negative. After abstaining from gluten, I, however, have a strong reaction to it (prickly feeling or it actually hurts). Thus many can be gluten intolerant without even knowing it. This is important in regards to POIS because this can severely affect the absorption of the notoriously badly absorbing amino-acids. Even after going gluten-free for years. Two of the amino-acids, phenylalanine and tyrosine are the key here. So POIS sufferers may have problems creating replacements with bad absorption (for one reason or another).
•   I have been diagnosed with ADD. This was shortly after realizing connection behind POIS and orgasms. I told the doc the first time I went to his office about this. He thought nothing of it; said he had not heard of it, basically shrugging it off. But I didn’t pursue it further. This is because:
•   a. the ability to concentrate far from perfect even when abstaining for months. Thus POIS is likely not to be the underlying cause, but definitely one of the main symptoms and triggers.
b. I got what I wanted: prescription meds. Bupropion. 
•   Prolactin could be a variable here. By taking meds and supplements (mentioned below) I can correct my ADD or brain fog, but still feel uninterested. I would assume prolactine? Period not wanting to have sex coincides with POIS symptoms lasting up to a week.
•   Underlying cause being the body adjusting to higher (temporary) levels of dopamine resulting in chronic deficiency. This can be due to over masturbating or smoking when developing (teenager years).

Bupropion: this has had a tremendous effect on my ADD (attention deficit disorder). I can concentrate better and I wake up fresh instead of groggy. Also, I stay awake better during daytime and as a result I fall asleep faster. This also increasing the effects of orgasms and thus makes POIS far worse! The effect is very strong in lengthening the o, or perhaps I should say that I get multiple Os (like 3-5) in a short amount of time (15seconds -1 minute). I can tingle up to four hours afterwards. This maybe just me. However, Bupropion also gets me on the rebound faster. Typically I suffer approximately 4 days while without the med it can be up to week and a half before feeling full of energy again. Thus it is likely to have something to do with Norepinephrine or Dopamine. This is definitely the main cause of my soddy feeling, be it POIS or ADD.

My POIS symptoms are as follows:
•   Lethargy and disinterest in anything.
•   Sleepiness, grogginess, brain fog.
•   Socially disconnect, verbal impairment
•   flu-like symptoms (feverish + dry throat)
•   I feel physically sick sometimes after one hour and lasts approximately 3 hours.
•   Trying to sleep all day, but not succeeding. (mentally tired)

These are in addition to my ADD which mainly affects reading and concentrating (thus not affecting stuff you really enjoy doing or conversing with people). However, I believe ADD and POIS is the same case in my case, as with some of the other POIS sufferers no doubt. In POIS the orgasm is the trigger, causing havoc on an unbalanced system with slower than usual recovery.

What has helped with me:
Tyrosine/phenylalanine – this is a temporary fix for the sleepiness or lethargy and brain fog. However, I’m not that interested in doing anything really and become passive (or depressed to a slight degree). You have to take a lot (1000mg) and often (2-3 times a day). Acetyl-tyrosine is much more effective for me, but I may get a headache from it. The resulting dopamine also reduces the amount of prolactin that can be a factor in POIS.

DHEA and or pregnanone – this helped, but only slightly. I think I become cranky from them so I generally avoid. DHEA, however, appears to have a positive effect on social features when out of POIS (more assertive from testosterone?).

St. John’s wort – this works for what Tyrosine doesn’t work for. Generally better outlook on life but does’t really improve concentration. I take 300 mg on POIS days, and yes, it does work without having to take something like 900 mg every day for at least 3 weeks before positive effects as is the norm as anti-depressants. Taking 900 mg too late in the day will affect falling asleep, leaving me with a feeling of being “content” but buzzy (brain fog). These effects are present even when taken sporadically, and on the whole positive when treating POIS symptoms even if I can become “slower”. This is likely to be serotonin effect, so it may play a part although not the main performer in this stage.

Sam-E – it works in a similar manner to bupropion or tyrosine. I have to look into it further, but I suggest everyone trying it and reporting on it.

Amino-acids – amino-acid supplements. ALL of them. I got a large pack of Amino-acids (Now foods amino-acid complete), both essential and non-essential. Taking on the upper limits or over it does have a positive effect!  [:0]So I hope you’ll look into the amino-acid deficiency theory. Amino-acids are, after all, the building blocks for most of the chemicals created by the human body. Not only tyrosine and phenylalanine, but others too.

These are largely aligned with what others have discovered.

Some things I take for POIS without being quite sure if they work:
Ginko gilboa: Should be good.
Rhodiola rosea: I’d like feedback on this. It increases dopamine. Only take it in the mornings. And take on the upper limits! I take 1x500mg (3%) and that is at its lowest dose with some effect.
Now trying Zinc, fenugreek and PhosphatidylSerine too thanks to this forum. Especially Phosphatidyl Serine seems promising!

Some things that I feel are utter bollocks (but these are just my educated opinions with medical knowledge running within the family and my own experience of my body):
Allergy to sperm. (ok, maybe for some, but really rare)
Anything to do with semen. (women have POIS too)
Testosterone. It may help through secondary methods, but I doubt it’s a lack of testosterone. The actual problems lie elsewhere as I cannot trace the connections within the body. DHEA may indeed be effective, but that’s the nature of it as a “mother of all hormones”. I could be wrong too, but hey! After all it's a free country even in being wrong! I just find that there is too much emphasis on T in treating POIS. [???]
Anything to do mental state. I read a lot that having sex with a partner is better for POIS than masturbating. This is probably more to do with moving more, breathing heavily/exercising when having actual sex. Also I find that the orgasm is of different type as you are concentrating on something different. I would even go as far as to say that the o is stronger when masturbating as you get a stronger ”flush” when you concentrate more on feeling as it happens further reinforcing the good feeling and giving a few more Os for 5-10 seconds. General gratification is of course far lower with masturbation as it is mostly just the actual O part.

I hope this is of some help to someone.
Greets & good luck!

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Offline Kingkong

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« Reply #13365 on: 28/05/2011 01:18:19 »
Bonjour Alui, je suis un francophone du Canada, Quebec. Nous pouvons échanger sur ce forum ou autrement. à vous de me faire savoir la facon de communiquer.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13366 on: 28/05/2011 01:40:21 »
From our friend, Stefanie, at NORD


Hello Demo, et al,

I'm happy to advise you that Dr. Ves Dimov, from the University of Chicago, sent an email earlier today. 

He remains interested in participating in the evaluation of men with POIS, and will be collaborating with his colleague from Creighton University in Nebraska, Dr Bewtra.

As some of you may already know, Dr. Bewtra has started an initial evaluation process.  He has done some preliminary evaluating and testing on one or two men from your group.

Dr. Nguyen, who I believe is a Fellow in Creighton's Department of Allergy and Immunology, assisted in those preliminary evaluations. He and Dr. Bewtra are planning to write a report and hopefully  present their initial findings at the upcoming ACAAI annual scientific meeting (American College of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology).  I believe this meeting takes place in early November.

They are obviously viewing POIS seriously, and devoting behind-the-scenes time and effort to it.

(FYI, a "Fellow" is a MD in an advanced specialty training program.)

Dr. Dimov and Dr. Bewtra are highly-regarded allergists/immunologist with outstanding academic qualifications.  Their interest, and the potential submission and presentation of a report by Dr. Bewtra and his Fellow, Dr Nguyen at the ACAAI annual scientific meeting, are definitely steps in the right direction for all of you!

The wheels of research can seem painfully slow at times, but don't let that discourage you -- at all!!  Real research is worth waiting for. 

POIS is just getting its wings. :-)


Sincerely,
 
Stefanie Putkowski, RN, BSN
Clinical Information Specialist
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55 Kenosia Avenue
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Phone: 203.744.0100
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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13367 on: 28/05/2011 01:55:19 »


alui, and Wibin, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!




Here are some POIS resources which may be helpful to you:

Our new POIS Forum - architectural genius: "daveman" - for detailed subject-by-subject discussion!
http://www.POISCenter.com/forums/index.php
THIS POIS thread here at Naked Science Forum will also always remain open for newcomers, for general unstructured discussion, and historical research of the 10,000+ postings here since 2007.

The Learning Channel's (TLC)  feature TV presentation on POIS, featuring our member here at this forum, "Animus". It was aired on May 22, 2011. Here is a link to the file for that TV documentary, "Desperate Measures", which can be downloaded and played. The segment starts at about 12:20..
http://www.fileserve.com/file/cUtJa9R/TITLE01.mp4

Our POIS Information Website, built by "mat780", is here:
http://sites.google.com/site/POISwebsite/

The POIS Information Website is home to the famous POIS Forum Compendium, written by "Pyropeach", and contains theories already discussed here and treatments that have both worked and failed.

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g

Our new POIS chatroom (realtime chat). Invite or visit another member(s) there, ANY TIME. We can all get to know each other better:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/POIS/chat


* Most recent POIS Research Studies, 2011 *

Send Dr. Waldinger an email, and he will send you the copies of both articles. At a later date, he will send you a POIS questionnaire to fill in. He gets busy, so If you do not receive a timely reply, please contact me or "daveman" and we will expedite.
His email:
prof.dr.waldinger.pois@gmail.com

Prof. dr. Marcel D. Waldinger's website:
http://www.post-orgasmic-illness-syndrome.com/en/index.html


First POIS Research Study, 2002

We have a copy of the first formal medical investigation on POIS by Prof. dr. Marcel D. Waldinger,MD,PhD, and Dr. Dave Schweitzer, MD.

  
Recent POIS Research Study, 2010

CASE REPORT
Postorgasm Illness Syndrome - A Spectrum of Illnesses
Jane Ashby, MRCP, and David Goldmeier, MRCP
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg316781#msg316781


British Medical Journal Case Report, 2010

Case study by Dr. Selwyn Dexter of a patient with a headache-featured POIS symptom treated with progesterone/norethisterone.
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2010/bcr.10.2009.2359.short?rss=1


How to get any or all of the above 3 studies: for a PDF copy, send me a Private Message (PM) with your regular email address (use "AT" instead of "@" ) and I'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around my name, i.e., "demografx".


New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show our credibility to the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition: POIS has scientific underpinnings and POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapeutic community. All of this information can greatly help you to fight the immediate reaction of some doctors: so just tell them, "IT'S NOT 'ALL IN OUR HEADS'! "

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum, which has already been referenced in respectable sources such as the Journal of Sexual Medicine (Dr. Waldinger's study), British Medical Journal and wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postorgasmic_illness_syndrome

For over 4 years, our POIS forum has attracted over 200 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, research on an additional 200 sufferers elsewhere on the internet, plus over 1,000,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!



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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13368 on: 28/05/2011 01:59:41 »



alui, and Wibin, this post will help you find information about POIS that we have already discussed, by tailoring a Google search to this forum:


SEARCH THE FORUM WITH GOOGLE

We have an overwhelming amount of data: more than 4 years' worth of posts (over  10,000 posts!) from 200+ Forum members, and an additional 200 POIS sufferers found elsewhere on the Internet by Member B_Jim.

In the Google search box, type
whatever-it-is-you're-interested-in-finding-out[space]POIS[space]site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

for example, I tried
nocturnal emission POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

and 740 results came up for "nocturnal emission" within the Forum.

be careful with spaces (you can use them before the word "site") and no-spaces (everything after the word "site")

Google even provides you results with the Message# for each result. But Message #'s do change, so be patient and look for the approximate Message#.





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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13369 on: 28/05/2011 02:30:45 »

XXX I have to look into it further, but I suggest everyone trying it and reporting on it.


Please refrain from making general medical recommendations over the internet without having seen a patient (even if you were a medical practitioner). Your own experience can be shared. Thanks for cooperating.
« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 06:28:23 by demografx »

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13370 on: 28/05/2011 03:02:09 »
Whoops, Animus, I almost forgot!! Yes, please send it there!

 [;D] [;D]

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13371 on: 28/05/2011 03:04:18 »
Animus, it would be great if the 2 POIS physician-authors also get the DVD, Dr Goldmeier and Dr Dexter, on our Collaborator's List.

If that's  asking a lot, let me know how I can assist. Or, since they're both in London we could simply alert them to the summer TLC airing?

Thank you very much for taking care of Dr Waldinger!

Yes, I'd be happy to do that.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13372 on: 28/05/2011 06:24:39 »
Many thanks, Animus!

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Offline Vandemolen3

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« Reply #13373 on: 28/05/2011 11:58:17 »
Great news about Dr. Nguyen, Dr. Dimov and Dr. Bewtra!

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Offline Vandemolen3

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« Reply #13374 on: 28/05/2011 11:59:36 »
Yesterday I had an O. Today is day 1. And I feel better than normal. I think I have 25 % less POIS. But I don't know in how far this is the effect of injections. Because I was eroused a very long time and then I had the O. In this case there is always less seed in the sperm. That could be a reason. And the other thing is that I just came back from a holiday from Asia (lot's of vitamin D). I will try it about a week with a quick O. I will let you know. But I can't wait to get my new injection about 3 weeks.
An O. again. And again I think 25% less symptoms. Mainly less rash in my mouth and nose.

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Offline carlitto

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« Reply #13375 on: 28/05/2011 13:33:49 »
Yesterday I had an O. Today is day 1. And I feel better than normal. I think I have 25 % less POIS. But I don't know in how far this is the effect of injections. Because I was eroused a very long time and then I had the O. In this case there is always less seed in the sperm. That could be a reason. And the other thing is that I just came back from a holiday from Asia (lot's of vitamin D). I will try it about a week with a quick O. I will let you know. But I can't wait to get my new injection about 3 weeks.
An O. again. And again I think 25% less symptoms. Mainly less rash in my mouth and nose.

Thanks to you Van and to Willem, we will finally be able to judge if POIS is an allergy or not... hopefully in a year from now.

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Offline Vandemolen3

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« Reply #13376 on: 28/05/2011 13:52:37 »
Thanks to you Van and to Willem, we will finally be able to judge if POIS is an allergy or not... hopefully in a year from now.
Thanks Carlito. I hope to tell you about a few months at the end of 2011.

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Offline daveman

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« Reply #13377 on: 28/05/2011 16:11:21 »

Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).



Demo,

I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.

Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.



Amazing! Your considerations above go a long way to confirm my longstanding hunch that my POIS is somehow related to my semen regeneration speed: in my depth-of-POIS-agony days - for 30+ years - my regen speed was like molasses. With testosterone treatment, my regen speed is RAPID, and my POIS has been whittled down drastically!

Just my hunch.




Well, you don't regenerate at all. So that could be the 80% of it, just as it was with Animus (more or less).

And perhaps the 20% could be removed by eliminating semen.

It's still important to discover the mechanism of the suffering.

It still could be auto-immune, or some kind of systemic, hormonal drain. And, although in Animus's case and your case, your POIS is reduced/cured, sterilization is not an optimal cure for most. Reversible sterilization could be. But it seems that only complete semen elimination provides 100% relief. Is that reversibly possible?

But better would be stopping the negative effect that sperm or semen cause.

Sorry that I'm being so finicky here. But it's all the difference in the world, especially for an otherwise healthy, intelligent 20 yr old with the desire for a future with dignity.

I'm saying there's a debate here. And perhaps we don't have enough information to say one way or the other. I understand what your saying Animus. And it could be. But it could also be auto-immune with the same situation.

What do we need to do to resolve the debate, rather than just talk about what we think? Don't take this as a smart-assed question... I'd really like to get past this somehow.

« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 16:28:49 by daveman »
How does Murphey do it??

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13378 on: 28/05/2011 18:51:04 »



Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).



Demo,

I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.

Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.



Amazing! Your considerations above go a long way to confirm my longstanding hunch that my POIS is somehow related to my semen regeneration speed: in my depth-of-POIS-agony days - for 30+ years - my regen speed was like molasses. With testosterone treatment, my regen speed is RAPID, and my POIS has been whittled down drastically!

Just my hunch.




Well, you don't regenerate at all...


Sorry to disagree, Dave, but I most certainly DO regenerate...............semen!

And the process certainly feels absolutely identical to my "sperm generation days".

The key is that when I feel "FULL" (analogous to a car's tank of gas), I am POIS-FREE. And this holds true equally with my sperm-semen as well as my zero-sperm-semen eras.

I can say this unequivocally because I have been observing it for 35 years.

All observed during high fertility years (I have 2 strapping grown men for sons), and all during testosterone treatment, and all during whatever period I lost sperm, evidenced by my recent Semen Analysis Laboratory Report.

I believe that the biological process of semen-only regeneration is identical to semen-with-sperm regeneration.



« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 19:05:04 by demografx »

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Offline pyropeach

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« Reply #13379 on: 28/05/2011 19:50:32 »



Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).



Demo,

I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.

Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.



Amazing! Your considerations above go a long way to confirm my longstanding hunch that my POIS is somehow related to my semen regeneration speed: in my depth-of-POIS-agony days - for 30+ years - my regen speed was like molasses. With testosterone treatment, my regen speed is RAPID, and my POIS has been whittled down drastically!

Just my hunch.




Well, you don't regenerate at all...


Sorry to disagree, Dave, but I most certainly DO regenerate...............semen!

And the process certainly feels absolutely identical to my "sperm generation days".

The key is that when I feel "FULL" (analogous to a car's tank of gas), I am POIS-FREE. And this holds true equally with my sperm-semen as well as my zero-sperm-semen eras.

I can say this unequivocally because I have been observing it for 35 years.

All observed during high fertility years (I have 2 strapping grown men for sons), and all during testosterone treatment, and all during whatever period I lost sperm, evidenced by my recent Semen Analysis Laboratory Report.

I believe that the biological process of semen-only regeneration is identical to semen-with-sperm regeneration.





You're both right, I think, we don't regenerate semen, but we in another sense we do.  We definitely can't say we constantly generate the actual fluid semen because the actual fluid is secreted by four glands (seminal vesicles, prostate glands, cowper's glands, testicles) only during ejaculation.  As semen exits the body, it begins from the seminal vesicles and gets components added to it from the remaining glands along its path.  In other words, if we were continuously generating seminal fluid, we'd be continuously ejaculating, which would be....interesting.  Anyways...I can surely attest to experiencing no symptoms as soon as I feel like my sperm supply has fully regenerated, I suppose this could go hand in hand with "semen regeneration".  But saying "semen regeneration" is misleading, I think.  40% to 60% of semen is secreted by the seminal vesicles, so I think its better to say there may be some sort of fatigue associated with the seminal vesicles, kinda like what we used to talk about with adrenal fatigue.  Seminal vesicles are just another set of glands that need time to regenerate after excretion, so its possible these glands just don't regenerate as quickly as people without POIS, or its just extremely taxing for our bodies to regenerate these glands.
« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 19:58:19 by pyropeach »

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13380 on: 28/05/2011 21:03:23 »
I'm saying there's a debate here. And perhaps we don't have enough information to say one way or the other. I understand what your saying Animus. And it could be. But it could also be auto-immune with the same situation.




daveman,
Thank you for making that point. I think it's important. I wonder how one would explain demo's improvement along the allergy theory. How would you explain that?
Also I would like to understand how testosterone could improve an allergic reaction.

Similarly, one can see my solution in terms of the allergy theory- in that semen elimination took away the allergen...?
« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 21:27:53 by Animus »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13381 on: 28/05/2011 21:14:29 »
Pyropeach, wow, just as soon as I thought I was getting a small handle on my own POIS mechanisms, you come along and introduce.....Science!

Sigh....back to the drawing board!  [:)]

Sincerely, many thanks for the enlightenment.

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13382 on: 28/05/2011 21:18:14 »
Anyways...I can surely attest to experiencing no symptoms as soon as I feel like my sperm supply has fully regenerated...

I can attest to that feeling too.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #13383 on: 28/05/2011 21:25:28 »
Pyropeach, somewhere along the way, I "lost" my sperm count.

But the subjective feeling of "regeneration" is still the same.

Would you explain that as illusory on my part? (And I take absolutely no offense at all if that is what you believe).

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Offline pyropeach

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« Reply #13384 on: 28/05/2011 21:47:56 »
Pyropeach, wow, just as soon as I thought I was getting a small handle on my own POIS mechanisms, you come along and introduce.....Science!

Sigh....back to the drawing board!  [:)]

Sincerely, many thanks for the enlightenment.

Can't help it Demo...I'm a biomedical engineer.  I just thought I could clarify "regeneration" to help bring the debate to a close.

Pyropeach, somewhere along the way, I "lost" my sperm count.

But the subjective feeling of "regeneration" is still the same.

Would you explain that as illusory on my part? (And I take absolutely no offense at all if that is what you believe).

Demo, I'm sorry to hear that you lost your sperm count...could that be related to your T-patches?  Well, it is possible that after so many years of regenerating after orgasm, our minds are just conditioned to feel regenerated after a certain time period, like Ivan Pavlov's concept of "conditioned reflex".  Clearly you're not generating sperm anymore, so the only thing left is your seminal vesicles and other glands involved in semen production to regenerate...maybe we should look more into those glands.  Its possible what we're feeling is seminal vesicle regeneration and we can sense when our semen glands are fully charged. 



Similarly, one can see my solution in terms of the allergy theory- in that semen elimination took away the allergen...?

This is definitely consistent with the auto-immune theory.  Animus, didn't you mention that you can still ejaculate, only much less than before and only experience very mild POIS symptoms?  If that's true, I guess its possible you're just partially depleting the seminal glands, making it that much quicker for them to regenerate resulting in milder and shorter lived symptoms.

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Offline daveman

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« Reply #13385 on: 28/05/2011 21:51:38 »



Animus, do you see any connection between your surgery = 100% POIS-free and my TRT = 80% POIS-free?

(Keep in mind my 'mysterious' Zero-sperm-count - a mystery as to when it occurred).



Demo,

I've thought about this a little more...

One possible explanation is that we cannot efficiently or healthily produce the semen which we've lost due to ejaculation.

Once the semen is ejaculated, it may cause the body to go into semen replacement mode (I do not know if this is true). However, if it were true, and semen replacement is the issue, maybe something which helps semen replacement also helps alleviate POIS. Perhaps the Testosterone therapy for you, helps with your semen replacement.

And for me, the surgery removed my ability to produce and ejaculate semen, so my body no longer replaces it.

Not producing sperm anymore could be lessening your POIS too because you're not replacing that either.



Amazing! Your considerations above go a long way to confirm my longstanding hunch that my POIS is somehow related to my semen regeneration speed: in my depth-of-POIS-agony days - for 30+ years - my regen speed was like molasses. With testosterone treatment, my regen speed is RAPID, and my POIS has been whittled down drastically!

Just my hunch.




Well, you don't regenerate at all...


Sorry to disagree, Dave, but I most certainly DO regenerate...............semen!

And the process certainly feels absolutely identical to my "sperm generation days".

The key is that when I feel "FULL" (analogous to a car's tank of gas), I am POIS-FREE. And this holds true equally with my sperm-semen as well as my zero-sperm-semen eras.

I can say this unequivocally because I have been observing it for 35 years.

All observed during high fertility years (I have 2 strapping grown men for sons), and all during testosterone treatment, and all during whatever period I lost sperm, evidenced by my recent Semen Analysis Laboratory Report.

I believe that the biological process of semen-only regeneration is identical to semen-with-sperm regeneration.





Edit: The following posts were written before reading all following posts.. but here theya are anyways [;)]

I don't disagree with what you say at all, in fact as far as regenerating semen, I even acknowledged that such is the reason for your current 20% symptoms.

Its just that I'm tired of arguing whether it's auto-immune related or regeneration related.

There are opposing views EVEN among the highest of experts!

Someone has to stop this sh..t!

What do we need to discover to resolve the questions? You, I and the group in general have our layman's views, Waldinger, Bewtra, Goldmeier et all also have theirs. Man I'm tired of it.

What do we need to do to know for sure???

That's not a rhetorical question. Can we make up a list of things that need to be known?

Anybody?
« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 22:09:37 by daveman »
How does Murphey do it??

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Offline daveman

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« Reply #13386 on: 28/05/2011 22:00:36 »
I'm saying there's a debate here. And perhaps we don't have enough information to say one way or the other. I understand what your saying Animus. And it could be. But it could also be auto-immune with the same situation.




daveman,
Thank you for making that point. I think it's important. I wonder how one would explain demo's improvement along the allergy theory. How would you explain that?
Also I would like to understand how testosterone could improve an allergic reaction.

Similarly, one can see my solution in terms of the allergy theory- in that semen elimination took away the allergen...?

Testosterone is a feedback hormone. It says, hey, I've got enough sperm! When it's low, like after ejac. the system says... oohh-ohh, I have to produce sperm.

So when "T" is taken, it reduces and even stops sperm production. If we are alergic to sperm, the allergy stops because we don't produce sperm. That's the idea with the use of male contraceptive methods to reduce/stop POIS.

As far as the remaining 20% that Demo has, could be semen allergy(?). Females are allergic to the proteins in semen more than they are allergic to sperm.

So who knows. Both reasons are possible. Allergy or regeneration.

I just want to, for once and for all, stop guessing!!!



« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 22:02:12 by daveman »
How does Murphey do it??

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Offline daveman

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« Reply #13387 on: 28/05/2011 22:05:21 »
Anyways...I can surely attest to experiencing no symptoms as soon as I feel like my sperm supply has fully regenerated...

I can attest to that feeling too.

Well it sure seems like it. But you can't take your sperm count in your head! LOL

« Last Edit: 28/05/2011 22:10:49 by daveman »
How does Murphey do it??

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Offline B_Daniel

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« Reply #13388 on: 28/05/2011 22:14:05 »
I'm enjoying discussions on this topic.  i'm not trying to throw my thoughts in anyone's face debating auto-immune vs regeneration here, but I'm pretty excited about all this and would like to drop in my 2 cents.  I think it's both, hand-in-hand. 

I've always subscribed to the auto-immune theory, but I've never felt fully satisfied with the explanation on why (and how) the allergic reaction flips on shortly after ejaculation.  I think the main take on this is that we're allergic to the semen flowing through the urethra....  But to me there's gotta be more to it.  As I know well, I sometimes look at porn and get near the "O" but am very careful not to cross the point of no return.  When I do this, my symptoms may flare up briefly (1 day or less), but my symptoms only really strike after an Orgasm.  But my semen still definitely flows through my Urethra when I'm doing that as evidenced by the pre-fluid.    

This thought that our symptoms go hand-in-hand with our Semen Production/Regeneration period seems intuitive to me.  Another data point of mine to support this  is that before I found this post, I knew that my good days were the days where I had withheld from orgasms for a long enough time that I was ready to burst.  So for a long time, I associated the uneasy feeling of wanting to ejaculate as being what cleared my brain to think, be witty, outgoing, have energy.  

So, in other words, Demo, I agree that when I'm "full", I'm POIS-free.  Which lends credence to my thought of not auto-immune vs regeneration, but just a more fine-tuned/ detailed auto-immune theory: Perhaps POIS sufferers have an allergic reaction to the regeneration of semen.

Lastly, pyropeach, to your point, ya, you're right it wouldn't be the regeneration of seminal fluid as we see it, but it would likely by the regeneration of fluid in one of these glands.  What if it were only 1 gland that we're allergic to and we could take a special pill to cease production in that 1 gland and all the pain and anguish we've been dealing with for years would just float away, Ahhhhh!!!  [;D] [;D] [;D]
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.

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Offline GoingCrazy

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« Reply #13389 on: 28/05/2011 22:29:53 »
sorry for not reading prior posts, or maybe forgetting something because I just O'd a couple of times today and I am dealing with half-brain working syndrome after orgasm so excuse me if I say anything wrong... haha.  

But it is still an argument, I can have a good day, but anytime I am stimulated, after that their is recovery time.  Like what was said above.  It just doesn't make any sense to me.  I think I am allergic to the stimulation itself, I don't know about sperm.  It's in the same part of my brain where I am stimulated that I feel POIS afterwards.  Last night, I haven't O'd for about a week, and got myself to the point where I had almost orgasmed, but immediately after that I felt terrible.  This morning I indulged.  I just can't connect the sperm-brain connection, unless when I am stimulated the sperm travels to my brain.

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Offline Guthrie

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« Reply #13390 on: 28/05/2011 22:31:05 »
But my semen still definitely flows through my Urethra when I'm doing that as evidenced by the pre-fluid.    

This is not quite right.  I think we should distinguish between three different potential allergens: 1) sperm, 2) ejaculate-semen, 3) pre-ejaculate fluid.

So, when you masturbate, while stopping before ejaculation, pre-ejaculate (3) flows through your urethra, but semen (2) does not flow through your urethra.

We know that some people develop a POIS episode just from 3, without the occurrence of 1 or 2.  And, for instance, in Demo's case, he still has POIS symptoms after getting rid of 1, while 2 and 3 remain for him.  

Thus, even if we also want to think about 'regeneration' theories, we should still be sure to take into account and distinguish the various elements that can potentially be contributing to an auto-immune reaction.

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Offline Guthrie

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« Reply #13391 on: 28/05/2011 22:37:18 »
anytime I am stimulated, after that their is recovery time.  Like what was said above.  It just doesn't make any sense to me.  I think I am allergic to the stimulation itself, I don't know about sperm.

Perhaps we should add a fourth potential element: the internal hormones/chemicals/substances that are released internally when someone gets stimulated/aroused.  Since these might be part of the same basic sexual-response system as sperm, semen, and pre-ejaculate, it could stand to reason that they might also contribute to POIS for some people. 

In this case, though, as in the case of those who react to pre-ejaculate, it might not be accurate to call it merely Post-orgasmic illness syndrome.  It seems to be, more broadly, an instance of Pre-and-Post-Orgasmic Illness syndrome, for some people.

So, to coin an acronym: PAPOIS!

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Offline pyropeach

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« Reply #13392 on: 28/05/2011 22:40:58 »

What do we need to discover to resolve the questions? You, I and the group in general have our layman's views, Waldinger, Bewtra, Goldmeier et all also have theirs. Man I'm tired of it.

What do we need to do to know for sure???

That's not a rhetorical question. Can we make up a list of things that need to be known?

Anybody?

Daveman, I wholeheartedly agree.  If ya ask me, the auto-immune theory is the one we should focus on because honestly, it's the only working theory we have with ACTUAL scientific evidence that was conducted by ACTUAL experts. Besides, we can't be straddling between two theories, lets just pick one and go with it for as long as it takes us.  

Assuming this theory is true, what we need to know now is exactly what substances in semen is causing the allergic reaction.  Forgive my POIS tattered memory, but didn't Waldinger include anything mentioned what EXACT substances in semen could cause an auto-immune reaction?  If not, I think that is where our investigation should proceed.  If we can determine exactly what in semen is causing this POIS, then we may be able to find a way to counter this substance(s).  Who knows...it might be just a pill away...


Lastly, pyropeach, to your point, ya, you're right it wouldn't be the regeneration of seminal fluid as we see it, but it would likely by the regeneration of fluid in one of these glands.  What if it were only 1 gland that we're allergic to and we could take a special pill to cease production in that 1 gland and all the pain and anguish we've been dealing with for years would just float away, Ahhhhh!!!  [;D] [;D] [;D]

B_Daniel...that is a very interesting thought! I'd say we may be able to rule out the Cowper's gland since its role is to secret pre-ejaculatory fluid, which, to my knowledge, does not trigger POIS.

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Offline Vandemolen3

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« Reply #13393 on: 28/05/2011 22:45:15 »
This is not quite right.  I think we should distinguish between three different potential allergens: 1) sperm, 2) ejaculate-semen, 3) pre-ejaculate fluid.

So, when you masturbate, while stopping before ejaculation, pre-ejaculate (3) flows through your urethra, but semen (2) does not flow through your urethra.

We know that some people develop a POIS episode just from 3, without the occurrence of 1 or 2.  And, for instance, in Demo's case, he still has POIS symptoms after getting rid of 1, while 2 and 3 remain for him.  

Thus, even if we also want to think about 'regeneration' theories, we should still be sure to take into account and distinguish the various elements that can potentially be contributing to an auto-immune reaction.
You are right. Only after ejaculation the semen goes into the urethra. And it is the semen that does the harm, not that other aqueous solution. The reason that some of us, including me, get a few symptoms with only arousal is maybe because the prostate is already producing semen.

When you have a daily O. the sperm gets more aqueous. This is normal. Less semen. But on day 1 of POIS it is not wise for me to have another O. That means that I get sick for more than 1 week. But if I abstain for weeks, when I have an O. my POIS-symptoms are no so big. But there is a lot of semen in the sperm. Maybe I get less sick because my urethra is 100% ok.

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Offline Mer

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« Reply #13394 on: 28/05/2011 23:45:32 »
Hello everyone:

Could anyone please let me know how to get rid of the brain fog sooner after it appears? It lasts like up to 6 days until I get a wet dream. Basically I also can`t get rid of wet dreams and have not experienced a period above 7 days without an ejaculation.

These symptoms are very strange for me beside other POIS symptoms. That is, I breathe very slowly after ejaculation and I take about 1/4th of the oxygen volume than normal days. I sweat a lot and sneeze more often. I think the extreme headache might happen because of lower oxygen intakes. Could the extreme fatigue cause lower diaphragm expansion and contraction? Why after doing a heavy exercise like swimming for 2 hours/ skiing, breathing gets much easier?
My hair gets a wired shape a few hours after an 'O'. It gets flattened on my head and doesn`t stand straight only after a few days. Lots of pimples (white ones) and red spots on my face appear.
I have been taking loratadine 10 mg for a month and it hasn`t helped. Only multivitamin containing multi-minerals helps a little bit toward brain fog.

If I could get rid of the brain fog, I wouldn`t care as much about other symptoms.

Adding to that, I get the symptoms even before an ejaculation. I have noticed even during a sexual contact or even an erection/arousal I get the symptoms. So, I think absentees will not help me much as a short arousal can cause the symptoms to appear.

Sorry, if my sentences are not very organized. I am writing this while having the symptoms.


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Offline pyropeach

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« Reply #13395 on: 28/05/2011 23:50:22 »

[Hair] gets flattened on my head and doesn`t stand straight only after a few days.




I get this...I thought it was just me.  Welcome to the POIS forum Mer!

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Offline GoingCrazy

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« Reply #13396 on: 29/05/2011 01:11:57 »
I've been noticing some strange "bubbles" forming before my fingernails on about 6 of 10 fingers.  Also I get this reoccurring strange bubble that forms inside my mouth on the upper left corner of my cheek.  It seems to contain some blood after it is broken.  I'm PRETTY SURE I don't have an STD, because I'm very young and afflicted with this illness, and somewhat of a virgin.  Alright, the point is does anybody else experience this or is this just a independent POIS phenomenon?

Also, I tend to resist not stimulating myself when I go over a few days of not orgasming.  I'm going to try not to touch as much as possible, because it is definitely causing a mini POIS reaction of sorts.  It's like for every high their is a low, but this low is just beyond what a non-pois person might think.  Has anybody resisted even "touching" up until an NE?
« Last Edit: 29/05/2011 01:20:44 by GoingCrazy »

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Offline GoingCrazy

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« Reply #13397 on: 29/05/2011 01:16:40 »
Mer If you are like me and describe the brain fog being like a sensation of cotton inside the forehead, than I really don't know what to say.  I've been trying to drink a lot of water, and also trying cranberry juice.  It's just really a matter of trying things and some might have an affect, and some may not.  I remember trying water and drinking a lot in a short amount of time and that helped, but some times it didn't.

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13398 on: 29/05/2011 01:37:09 »

This is definitely consistent with the auto-immune theory.  Animus, didn't you mention that you can still ejaculate, only much less than before and only experience very mild POIS symptoms? 

No. This is not true at all. In fact I have said the just opposite recently in the last few pages. Please check my previous comments.
« Last Edit: 29/05/2011 01:47:54 by Animus »

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Offline Animus

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« Reply #13399 on: 29/05/2011 02:01:05 »


Its just that I'm tired of arguing whether it's auto-immune related or regeneration related.

There are opposing views EVEN among the highest of experts!

Someone has to stop this sh..t!
...Man I'm tired of it.

What do we need to do to know for sure???

That's not a rhetorical question. Can we make up a list of things that need to be known?

Anybody?

Daveman,
I appreciate your passion, but please ... can you tone it down a little? We are not going to make progress if we close the door on anything too quickly. This is a complex issue, and investigating science is complex, takes a lot of organization, years of work, and level-headedness. We can't let our passions get in the way of being rational and systematic. I think your suggestion for making a list is excellent.
« Last Edit: 29/05/2011 07:56:31 by Animus »