Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14250 on: 09/08/2011 14:45:26 »
Hi,

I'm very happy some of you have had success with Niacin. Definitely I'm going to try it myself soon. But as i'm also interested in a long-term cure, i still have some questions about the allergy theory.

Basically i'd like to know if any of you tried the standard method some clinics offer in case of semen allergy:

"At the University of Cincinnati, we treat semen allergy by desensitizing women to their sexual partner's semen with injections similar to regular allergy shots. We take ejaculate from the woman's sexual partner and separate the large and small proteins. The woman is skin tested to these proteins to determine which ones she react to. She is then desensitized over several hours to the proteins she reacted to in the skin test. The injections are given every 10 to 15 minutes at increasing concentrations. After the desensitization has been completed, ejaculate is instilled into the woman's vagina. If she has no symptoms, then the treatment has been successful."

It does not sound very different to Dr. Waldinger methods. And it can be done in a lot of clinics...

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Offline TIMRIL

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« Reply #14251 on: 09/08/2011 15:57:57 »
Hello everyone,

A friend of mine has been suffering on a daily basis from physical symptoms identical to those of POIS, for about ten years already. He was diagnozed with Fibromyalgia (which has no treatment as far as I know. At least he didn't find one).

Yesterday he told me that he has been sufferring from the symptoms (I guess more than usual, he didn't elaborate) also after ejaculating, and that he believes he has POIS.

Through out the years he has had lots of tests and turned to lots of specialists who took his money and didn't really help him. When he discovered that POIS existed and that he was not alone or crazy, he turned to his doctors who dismissed his claims explaining that its all psychological and that he should see a psychologist (which he does!).

From what I read untill now, I strongly believe that there is a connection between the POIS and the Fibromyalgia.

My question is that (and thank you for reading so far! [;)]):
Does any of you suffer from those symptoms (especially physical, but not only) also without having ejaculated? even for only a period?

TNX a lot!

Timri.

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Offline daveman

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« Reply #14252 on: 09/08/2011 16:54:46 »
Hi,

I'm very happy some of you have had success with Niacin. Definitely I'm going to try it myself soon. But as i'm also interested in a long-term cure, i still have some questions about the allergy theory.

Basically i'd like to know if any of you tried the standard method some clinics offer in case of semen allergy:

"At the University of Cincinnati, we treat semen allergy by desensitizing women to their sexual partner's semen with injections similar to regular allergy shots. We take ejaculate from the woman's sexual partner and separate the large and small proteins. The woman is skin tested to these proteins to determine which ones she react to. She is then desensitized over several hours to the proteins she reacted to in the skin test. The injections are given every 10 to 15 minutes at increasing concentrations. After the desensitization has been completed, ejaculate is instilled into the woman's vagina. If she has no symptoms, then the treatment has been successful."

It does not sound very different to Dr. Waldinger methods. And it can be done in a lot of clinics...

There are several methods of desensitization that can be considered, and that have been talked about here, among which are sub-lingual, skin-***** (both superficial and sub-dermal), and intra-lymphatic. Any of these procedures can be quite dangerous if practiced without supervision becasue of the danger of shock. It may appear that this danger is low, but the consequences can easily be deadly.

The process you mention is directed more at the semen protein components than at the sperm component, and up to now, it is still not sure which is the culprit. It could be one, the other or both, or different for each person.

I don't remember now, but one of our friendly doctors is dedicated more closely to the desensitization that you mention. Can someone refresh my memory as to which one it is?

This seems to be a rush desensitization, as some of the others that I mentioned can take months, sometimes years.

We are enthiused about the possibility for desensitization, but it is still a new potential and there have been very few cases among men with POIS that have actually had positive results, not enough to be assured that it is a real cure for all yet.

Results in women are very difficult to translate to results in men with POIS, BUT there is hope.

We have started a fund for a more in depth investigation by THE industry's experts through the National Organization for Rare Diseases. For this fund we need to rais a minimum of $33,500. In the first few weeks we raised $2500. Find more information about this at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.0

This is our parallel forum with its very own HOME http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php We also have desensitization discussions.


« Last Edit: 09/08/2011 17:09:45 by daveman »
How does Murphey do it??

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14253 on: 09/08/2011 17:54:24 »
Thanks a lot Daveman for the answer. I suppose the results are slower with this method than with Waldinger's, but the good part is that this method can be tried in hospitals with medic supervision. I mean, not everyone can travel to Germany...Anyway, i'm going to check the new Forums! Thanks again

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14254 on: 09/08/2011 19:41:13 »

TIMRIL, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!




Here are some POIS resources which may be helpful to you:

Our new POIS Forum - architectural genius: "daveman" - for detailed subject-by-subject discussion!
http://www.POISCenter.com/forums/index.php
Our 4-year-old POIS thread here at Naked Science Forum will also always remain open for newcomers, for general unstructured discussion, and historical research of the 10,000+ postings here since 2007.

The Learning Channel's (TLC)  feature TV presentation on POIS, featuring our member here at this forum, "Animus". It was aired on May 22, 2011. Here is a link to the file for that TV documentary, "Desperate Measures", which can be downloaded and played. The segment starts at about 12:20..
http://www.fileserve.com/file/cUtJa9R/TITLE01.mp4

Our POIS Information Website, built by "mat780", is here:
http://sites.google.com/site/POISwebsite/

The POIS Information Website is home to the famous POIS Forum Compendium, written by "Pyropeach", and contains theories already discussed here and treatments that have both worked and failed.

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g

Our new POIS chatroom (realtime chat). Invite or visit another member(s) there, ANY TIME. We can all get to know each other better:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/POIS/chat


POIS Research Studies, 2011

These 2 papers reveal Dr. Waldinger's POIS autoimmune hypothesis and suggests one possible avenue of treatment.

First POIS Research Study, 2002

We have a copy of the first formal medical investigation on POIS by Prof. dr. Marcel D. Waldinger,MD,PhD, and Dr. Dave Schweitzer, MD.

  
Recent POIS Research Study, 2010

CASE REPORT
Postorgasm Illness Syndrome - A Spectrum of Illnesses
Jane Ashby, MRCP, and David Goldmeier, MRCP
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg316781#msg316781


British Medical Journal Case Report, 2010

Case study by Dr. Selwyn Dexter of a patient with a headache-featured POIS symptom treated with progesterone/norethisterone.
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2010/bcr.10.2009.2359.short?rss=1


How to get any or all of the above 5 studies: send me or "daveman" a Private Message (PM) with your regular email address (use "AT" instead of "@" ) and we'll send you back the PDF(s).

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, i.e., "demografx", or "daveman".


New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show our credibility to the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition: POIS has scientific underpinnings and POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapeutic community. All of this information can greatly help you to fight the immediate reaction of some doctors: so just tell them, "IT'S NOT 'ALL IN OUR HEADS'! "

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum, which has already been referenced in respectable sources such as the Journal of Sexual Medicine (Dr. Waldinger's study), British Medical Journal and wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postorgasmic_illness_syndrome

For over 4 years, our POIS forum has attracted over 200 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, research on an additional 200 sufferers elsewhere on the internet, plus over 1,300,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!



SEARCH THE FORUM WITH GOOGLE

We have an overwhelming amount of data: more than 4 years' worth of posts (over  10,000 posts!) from 200+ Forum members, and an additional 200 POIS sufferers found elsewhere on the Internet by Member B_Jim.

In the Google search box, type
whatever-it-is-you're-interested-in-finding-out[space]POIS[space]site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

for example, I tried
nocturnal emission POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

and 740 results came up for "nocturnal emission" within the Forum.

be careful with spaces (you can use them before the word "site") and no-spaces (everything after the word "site")

Google even provides you results with the Message# for each result. But Message #'s do change, so be patient and look for the approximate Message#.


« Last Edit: 09/08/2011 19:43:33 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14255 on: 09/08/2011 21:23:15 »


I'm in POIS too, so I could only come up with this idea for a T-shirt:






If you're curious about the above, see the discussion which starts with B_Daniel's post at:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.msg2156#msg2156   [:)]


Can someone look up what it costs to print 100 T-Shirts, let's say just one color, this one above as an example?

I'm in Chile, a quote here wouldn't make sense. One from the US maybe.


I sent you 2 quotes (from 2 different T-shirt printers), for quantity 100 x 1-color. First one is $6.85 each, has a nice shirt pocket.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14256 on: 09/08/2011 21:39:59 »
Is Levitra still a POIS treatment contender?


I think it's interesting that XN is a vasodilator just like Levitra.  Demo, what are your thoughts?



Limejuice, I'm really no longer certain what to think about Levitra and POIS.


This morning, I awoke at 5:30 AM at "the tail end of POIS". I felt better, but not out-of-POIS.

I wanted to cancel my 10:30 AM appointment, but first I thought I'd try 2 things:


(1) Forced sleep. I took 2 Benadryl.

(2) I took 5 mg. Levitra (no sex, just the Rx) -
              (Limejuice's question-post above helped to make me think about it)

I awoke at 10:00 AM. Felt VERY refreshed (unusually so, considering the yukky-POIS-feeling  just a few short hours ago!) .

It worked!

I felt "stimulated" from the Levitra and the dreamy sleep (who knows what the heck I was dreaming about? [;D])

This got me thinking once again about my semen regeneration theory...is THAT what was hastening my POIS cure today??

Or was it vasodilation as Limejuice suggested??

Tune in next episode for "The Mysterious Multiple Cures Of Demografx"!ů [:)]
« Last Edit: 09/08/2011 21:45:33 by demografx »

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14257 on: 09/08/2011 22:06:25 »
Demografx,

What you say makes sense to me. I believe POIS makes some kind of change to the circulatory system. One of my main symptoms is that after O, i feel a change in my scalp, heart, and abdominal veins. I don't know if POIS makes them to contract or dilate. It feels like a migraine to the whole body.

Also, under POIS, i loose my sexual potency, and become some kind of impotent. So, it makes a lot of sense that Levitra helps. It would be very nice to know if POIS either makes our blood vessels to dilatee or contract.

Then we could think of an strategy. I mean, maybe aborting that dilation, or that contraction in the first place.

If we take a look at this page: http://www.relieve-migraine-headache.com/abdominal-migraine.html

we can see beta-blockers are proposed for abdominal migraines.
« Last Edit: 09/08/2011 22:18:24 by Quasar »

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Offline Vincent M

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« Reply #14258 on: 09/08/2011 22:33:56 »
Hello everyone,

A friend of mine has been suffering on a daily basis from physical symptoms identical to those of POIS, for about ten years already. He was diagnozed with Fibromyalgia (which has no treatment as far as I know. At least he didn't find one).

My question is that (and thank you for reading so far! [;)]):
Does any of you suffer from those symptoms (especially physical, but not only) also without having ejaculated? even for only a period?

Timri.

To answer your question, pois is certainly very similar to fibromyalgia for me. After I orgasm my sensitivity to pain is so high that even walking hurts for a while. It feels like almost every nerve in my body is inflamed. Fenugreek helps this a lot, however, and allows me to recover almost fully from this dramatic sensitivity to pain within 30 min if I spend that time laying down after orgasm. My brainfog & general exhaustion take longer to recover from.
« Last Edit: 09/08/2011 22:38:52 by Vincent Marcus »
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

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Offline FinalPanic

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« Reply #14259 on: 09/08/2011 22:41:50 »
Hello everyone,

A friend of mine has been suffering on a daily basis from physical symptoms identical to those of POIS, for about ten years already. He was diagnozed with Fibromyalgia (which has no treatment as far as I know. At least he didn't find one).

Yesterday he told me that he has been sufferring from the symptoms (I guess more than usual, he didn't elaborate) also after ejaculating, and that he believes he has POIS.

Through out the years he has had lots of tests and turned to lots of specialists who took his money and didn't really help him. When he discovered that POIS existed and that he was not alone or crazy, he turned to his doctors who dismissed his claims explaining that its all psychological and that he should see a psychologist (which he does!).

From what I read untill now, I strongly believe that there is a connection between the POIS and the Fibromyalgia.

My question is that (and thank you for reading so far! [;)]):
Does any of you suffer from those symptoms (especially physical, but not only) also without having ejaculated? even for only a period?

TNX a lot!

Timri.

If it helps I have been a lousy sleeper for nearly 30 years and often have feelings of being out of sorts on a daily basis - the various feelings are identifiable and worryingly I have pet names for them to describe to myself how I feel. It sounds obsessive but it is something I just put up with and as such generally get on with my life. I have blamed these uncomfortable feelings of being 'under the weather' on my poor sleep - hence Nytol on occasion can really help me. I had recently stated that I felt my POIS was improving - but here I am, day three and it has been the worst day. Days one and two were not too bad at all - but today has floored me somewhat - the disappointment at how I feel serves to make things worse too. I still have nagging thoughts that as I seem to run at a constant energy low and that my POIS was just further depletion of 'resources'. But the more I read here I now think I am just unlucky and have two conditions that are possibly not related but complement each other very well - bad luck for me.

So in answer to your question - yes it could be said that I have do have an underlying and continual feeling of POIS also - but I have no idea why and after 30 years I have not been taken seriously ill, died or been seriously incapacitated through this - it is just an inconvenience I have to manage. Buy by god I want rid of it.

Dr. David Goldmeier's team in the UK have written to me to tell me they are very busy and will write to me again in about 6 weeks - hopefully with an appointment - I will update as this progresses.

I just feel like something 'tripped' one day and I just need to press that big ol' reset button to put me all back square - trouble is just don't know how!!

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Offline FinalPanic

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« Reply #14260 on: 09/08/2011 22:46:55 »
Demografx,

What you say makes sense to me. I believe POIS makes some kind of change to the circulatory system. One of my main symptoms is that after O, i feel a change in my scalp, heart, and abdominal veins. I don't know if POIS makes them to contract or dilate. It feels like a migraine to the whole body.

Also, under POIS, i loose my sexual potency, and become some kind of impotent. So, it makes a lot of sense that Levitra helps. It would be very nice to know if POIS either makes our blood vessels to dilatee or contract.

Then we could think of an strategy. I mean, maybe aborting that dilation, or that contraction in the first place.

If we take a look at this page: http://www.relieve-migraine-headache.com/abdominal-migraine.html

we can see beta-blockers are proposed for abdominal migraines.

Was just reading about Niacin flushes - seems to be related to what you suggest and hence reversal of effect?

"Niacin causes flushing by dilating (expanding) the blood vessels on the surface of the skin. Although this side effect of niacin is harmless, it is often severe enough for people to stop taking niacin."

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14261 on: 09/08/2011 22:47:18 »

i wish some billionaire in this world already has POIS and he reads this forum and donates all the money needed for the NORD research in 1 shot....


Haha that would be great!  But there are about 1,000 billionaires in the world.  So what's that?  About .00001% if my math is right.  And then about 1% or less of the population has POIS.  So the odds of someone with pois ALSO being a billionaire... not so high  :P.  

Nope, I think we're gonna have to all pull together and fund this research ourselves.  The good news is that the goal is very attainable!  With everyone giving what they can, we can totally do this!



Guys! You're shooting too high!!

We don't need a DonaldWarrenTrumpGatesBillBuffett!!!!

ALL WE NEED IS ONE AFFLUENT POISer WHO CAN WRITE A CHECK FOR $30,000!!!!!

So..................we only need - NOT a billionaire - - - - but a "$100,000aire" with POIS!!!!!

About 15% of all US households earn over $100,000 per year.

That's roughly 15 MILLION US MEN EARNING OVER $100,000 PER YEAR.

IF 1% HAVE POIS................

THAT REPRESENTS 150,000 AFFLUENT POISERS IN THE US ALONE!!!

OK YOU SAY IT'S ONLY 1/2 OF 1% WITH POIS?

THAT STILL REPRESENTS 75,000 AFFLUENT POISers  OUT THERE WHO COULD WRITE THAT CHECK!!!!

LET'S GO FIND 'EM!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT.....................to hedge our bet, let's do what B_Daniel suggests and let's bet on ourselves first!!! :) :) :) :) :)

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Offline FinalPanic

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« Reply #14262 on: 09/08/2011 23:05:51 »
Well as a follow up to the Fibromyalgia post I have read through this: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Fibromyalgia/Pages/Symptoms.aspx (UK Health Service website) - the suffers posts at the foot of the article very much reflect our bewilderment at POIS - symptoms seem so similar - could we be low level sufferers of the illness and orgasm just kicks it off to a higher level? Has this been discussed on here - or am I too far off track with this now?

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14263 on: 10/08/2011 00:15:26 »
Demografx,

What you say makes sense to me. I believe POIS makes some kind of change to the circulatory system. One of my main symptoms is that after O, i feel a change in my scalp, heart, and abdominal veins. I don't know if POIS makes them to contract or dilate. It feels like a migraine to the whole body.

Also, under POIS, i loose my sexual potency, and become some kind of impotent. So, it makes a lot of sense that Levitra helps. It would be very nice to know if POIS either makes our blood vessels to dilatee or contract.

Then we could think of an strategy. I mean, maybe aborting that dilation, or that contraction in the first place.

If we take a look at this page: http://www.relieve-migraine-headache.com/abdominal-migraine.html

we can see beta-blockers are proposed for abdominal migraines.

Was just reading about Niacin flushes - seems to be related to what you suggest and hence reversal of effect?

"Niacin causes flushing by dilating (expanding) the blood vessels on the surface of the skin. Although this side effect of niacin is harmless, it is often severe enough for people to stop taking niacin."

Absolutely. Niacin flush seems to dilate blood vessels, so taken before orgasm, it could abort the vasocongestion an orgasm causes:

Before having an O, our blood vessels are contracted because of adrenaline, etc. When we have the O, we also have sudden local spikes in blood pressure in different areas of the body. After having the O, sometimes we get a facial flush because of histamine/serotonin, and blood vessels dilate.

┐What if our blood vessels are not enough elastic (or too much contracted) and the local spikes in blood are too high? Then, our blood vessels dilate too much. They overreact!

This is how i think the Levitra, and the Niacin flush work:

They dilate blood vessels before having an O, so the spike in blood pressure is less intense, and blood vessels don't have to overreact, they don't have to over-dilate.

I think a dilation from Levitra / Niacin flush is very different from a dilation from a sudden blood pressure spike coming from contracted blood vessels (orgasm):

In the first case, we have a dilation from nitric oxide and niacin.

In the second case, we have a dilation from an unhealthy spike, coming from blood too low in oxygen, and the key ingredients are histamine and serotonin, which are more aggresive and more prone to migraines.

So, to sum up, it makes a lot of sense that Niacin an Levitra are somehow working. We could think of more vasodilators. Not all of them are going to work, or course.

I can think of beta blockers. But they act more like preventing contraction. They are not exactly vasodilators. So, depending on the beta blocker, they could be more or less effective to us.

Take a look at this:

"The first generation of beta-blockers were non-selective, meaning that they blocked both beta-1 (β1) and beta-1 (β2) adrenoceptors. Second generation beta-blockers are more cardioselective in that they are relatively selective for β1 adrenoceptors. Note that this relative selectivity can be lost at higher drug doses. Finally, the third generation beta-blockers are drugs that also possess vasodilator actions through blockade of vascular alpha-adrenoceptors."

But remember: beta blockers don't work instantly, they need some days.

Some examples of 3rd generation beta blockers: Carvedilol, Bisoprolol, Nebivolol, Metoprolol.

Look at this: "Nebivolol, a new third-generation ▀1-selective blocker, which in addition to ▀1-adrenergic receptor inhibition also increases endothelial nitric oxide (NO) release, thereby inducing peripheral vasodilatation"

And also this one: "Carvedilol:

The use of beta blockers for migraine prevention is not new. The evidence for the use of this pharmacologic class was well established with propranolol, timolol, atenolol, and nadolol. The use of novel beta blockers, such as carvedilol, for the prophylactic treatment of migraine is a new concept because it offers additional alpha-1 blocking and antioxidant properties. This nonselective alpha-1 and beta-1 antagonist reduces blood pressure by reducing peripheral vascular resistance with no alteration of heart frequency or cardiac debit.[41] The results are a very favorable adverse event profile, which may represent an appeal in migraine prevention because traditional beta blockers have limiting side effects. Of the 68 patients who completed the study, 40 (59%) experienced a 50% reduction in monthly migraine attack frequency at the third month of treatment."


Also, Angiotensin II receptor antagonists are very interesting: they block the activation of angiotensin II AT1 receptors. Blockade of AT1 receptors directly causes vasodilation, reduces secretion of vasopressin, and reduces production and secretion of aldosterone, amongst other actions. The combined effect reduces blood pressure.

Here they compare a 3rd generation beta blocker with an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist:

http://www.docguide.com/sexual-activity-hypertensive-men-treated-valsartan-or-carvedilol-crossover-study

Erectyle disfunction is a complain with betablockers, but it is not with Valsartan (angiotensin II receptor antagonist).

Take a look at this: Angiotensin II is a natural substance in your body that affects your cardiovascular system in many ways, such as by narrowing your blood vessels. This narrowing can increase your blood pressure and force your heart to work harder

Now that i think about it....i remember that after having an O, one of the symptoms is that i can feel my heart pumping harder. The pumping is quite more strong and noticeable.

Another alternative are Alpha blockers: "They relax certain muscles and help small blood vessels remain open. They work by keeping the hormone norepinephrine (noradrenaline) from tightening the muscles in the walls of smaller arteries and veins. Blocking that effect causes the vessels to remain open and relaxed. This improves blood flow and lowers blood pressure.

Because alpha blockers also relax other muscles throughout the body, these medications can help improve urine flow in older men with prostate problems."


Another alternative i can think of as now is nitric oxide supplements (NO2) taken an hour before having an O. They use to sell them for boybuilding. Finally, another one interesting could be indomethacin (it is used to treat sexual headaches), but i think someone in the forum tried it without too much success.



« Last Edit: 10/08/2011 01:10:44 by Quasar »

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Offline Counterpoints

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« Reply #14264 on: 10/08/2011 01:03:25 »
I had quite a carefully thought out post about a POIS theory, asking for comments, and it seems to have been buried very quickly by intro posts, etc., and forgotten.  And before that I had had asked a question about niacinamide and it was also ignored.  This sort of thing seems to be happening lately as the number of new posters has been increasing, and the welcome posts have been getting longer, etc.

To help with the conversation in this thread, I suggest just linking to the full welcome post. For example, the new welcome could be:

"Welcome <name>,

Please see this link for a full introduction to this thread:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg364636#msg364636

We look forward to your posts!
"

And we could use tinyurl to make the url more manageable.  What do you think Demo (and others)?

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14265 on: 10/08/2011 01:49:23 »



Hello everyone,

A friend of mine has been suffering on a daily basis from physical symptoms identical to those of POIS, for about ten years already. He was diagnozed with Fibromyalgia (which has no treatment as far as I know. At least he didn't find one).

Yesterday he told me that he has been sufferring from the symptoms (I guess more than usual, he didn't elaborate) also after ejaculating, and that he believes he has POIS.

Through out the years he has had lots of tests and turned to lots of specialists who took his money and didn't really help him. When he discovered that POIS existed and that he was not alone or crazy, he turned to his doctors who dismissed his claims explaining that its all psychological and that he should see a psychologist (which he does!).

From what I read untill now, I strongly believe that there is a connection between the POIS and the Fibromyalgia.

My question is that (and thank you for reading so far! [;)]):
Does any of you suffer from those symptoms (especially physical, but not only) also without having ejaculated? even for only a period?

TNX a lot!

Timri.



TIMRIL, there are over 300 posts here addressing fibromyalgia.

Maybe they can help:
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=fibromyalgia+POIS+site:http%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=64480e3e283e02ba&biw=1045&bih=471



« Last Edit: 10/08/2011 01:51:41 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14266 on: 10/08/2011 01:58:36 »






Hi,

I'm very happy some of you have had success with Niacin. Definitely I'm going to try it myself soon. But as i'm also interested in a long-term cure, i still have some questions about the allergy theory.

Basically i'd like to know if any of you tried the standard method some clinics offer in case of semen allergy:

"At the University of Cincinnati, we treat semen allergy by desensitizing women to their sexual partner's semen with injections similar to regular allergy shots. We take ejaculate from the woman's sexual partner and separate the large and small proteins. The woman is skin tested to these proteins to determine which ones she react to. She is then desensitized over several hours to the proteins she reacted to in the skin test. The injections are given every 10 to 15 minutes at increasing concentrations. After the desensitization has been completed, ejaculate is instilled into the woman's vagina. If she has no symptoms, then the treatment has been successful."

It does not sound very different to Dr. Waldinger methods. And it can be done in a lot of clinics...




Interesting, Quasar.


We've had a number of very interesting discussions here about Dr Bernstein and the University of Cincinnati.


Here is a search on "Cincinnati" on all the previous POIS posts in this forum.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=cincinnati+POIS+site:http%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=64480e3e283e02ba&biw=1045&bih=471


And here are some results using "Bernstein" as the search criterion:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=bernstein+POIS+site:http%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=64480e3e283e02ba&biw=1045&bih=471



« Last Edit: 10/08/2011 02:00:12 by demografx »

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Offline daveman

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« Reply #14267 on: 10/08/2011 02:04:45 »


I'm in POIS too, so I could only come up with this idea for a T-shirt:






If you're curious about the above, see the discussion which starts with B_Daniel's post at:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.msg2156#msg2156   [:)]


I got a couple of quotes for 100 T-Shirts

[attachment=15088]


This was the most expensive. Donors could look at buying this $7.22 T-Shirt for a minimum of $100, proceeds going to NORD, something like that.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2011 02:09:05 by daveman »
How does Murphey do it??

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14268 on: 10/08/2011 03:03:50 »

Demografx,

What you say makes sense to me. I believe POIS makes some kind of change to the circulatory system. One of my main symptoms is that after O, i feel a change in my scalp, heart, and abdominal veins. I don't know if POIS makes them to contract or dilate. It feels like a migraine to the whole body.

Also, under POIS, i loose my sexual potency, and become some kind of impotent. So, it makes a lot of sense that Levitra helps. It would be very nice to know if POIS either makes our blood vessels to dilatee or contract.

Then we could think of an strategy. I mean, maybe aborting that dilation, or that contraction in the first place.

If we take a look at this page: http://www.relieve-migraine-headache.com/abdominal-migraine.html

we can see beta-blockers are proposed for abdominal migraines.

Was just reading about Niacin flushes - seems to be related to what you suggest and hence reversal of effect?

"Niacin causes flushing by dilating (expanding) the blood vessels on the surface of the skin. Although this side effect of niacin is harmless, it is often severe enough for people to stop taking niacin."



Absolutely. Niacin flush seems to dilate blood vessels, so taken before orgasm, it could abort the vasocongestion an orgasm causes:

Before having an O, our blood vessels are contracted because of adrenaline, etc. When we have the O, we also have sudden local spikes in blood pressure in different areas of the body. After having the O, sometimes we get a facial flush because of histamine/serotonin, and blood vessels dilate.

┐What if our blood vessels are not enough elastic (or too much contracted) and the local spikes in blood are too high? Then, our blood vessels dilate too much. They overreact!

This is how i think the Levitra, and the Niacin flush work:

They dilate blood vessels before having an O, so the spike in blood pressure is less intense, and blood vessels don't have to overreact, they don't have to over-dilate.

I think a dilation from Levitra / Niacin flush is very different from a dilation from a sudden blood pressure spike coming from contracted blood vessels (orgasm):

In the first case, we have a dilation from nitric oxide and niacin.

In the second case, we have a dilation from an unhealthy spike, coming from blood too low in oxygen, and the key ingredients are histamine and serotonin, which are more aggresive and more prone to migraines.

So, to sum up, it makes a lot of sense that Niacin an Levitra are somehow working. We could think of more vasodilators. Not all of them are going to work, or course.

I can think of beta blockers. But they act more like preventing contraction. They are not exactly vasodilators. So, depending on the beta blocker, they could be more or less effective to us.

Take a look at this:

"The first generation of beta-blockers were non-selective, meaning that they blocked both beta-1 (β1) and beta-1 (β2) adrenoceptors. Second generation beta-blockers are more cardioselective in that they are relatively selective for β1 adrenoceptors. Note that this relative selectivity can be lost at higher drug doses. Finally, the third generation beta-blockers are drugs that also possess vasodilator actions through blockade of vascular alpha-adrenoceptors."

But remember: beta blockers don't work instantly, they need some days.

Some examples of 3rd generation beta blockers: Carvedilol, Bisoprolol, Nebivolol, Metoprolol.

Look at this: "Nebivolol, a new third-generation ▀1-selective blocker, which in addition to ▀1-adrenergic receptor inhibition also increases endothelial nitric oxide (NO) release, thereby inducing peripheral vasodilatation"

And also this one: "Carvedilol:

The use of beta blockers for migraine prevention is not new. The evidence for the use of this pharmacologic class was well established with propranolol, timolol, atenolol, and nadolol. The use of novel beta blockers, such as carvedilol, for the prophylactic treatment of migraine is a new concept because it offers additional alpha-1 blocking and antioxidant properties. This nonselective alpha-1 and beta-1 antagonist reduces blood pressure by reducing peripheral vascular resistance with no alteration of heart frequency or cardiac debit.[41] The results are a very favorable adverse event profile, which may represent an appeal in migraine prevention because traditional beta blockers have limiting side effects. Of the 68 patients who completed the study, 40 (59%) experienced a 50% reduction in monthly migraine attack frequency at the third month of treatment."


Also, Angiotensin II receptor antagonists are very interesting: they block the activation of angiotensin II AT1 receptors. Blockade of AT1 receptors directly causes vasodilation, reduces secretion of vasopressin, and reduces production and secretion of aldosterone, amongst other actions. The combined effect reduces blood pressure.

Here they compare a 3rd generation beta blocker with an Angiotensin II receptor antagonist:

http://www.docguide.com/sexual-activity-hypertensive-men-treated-valsartan-or-carvedilol-crossover-study

Erectyle disfunction is a complain with betablockers, but it is not with Valsartan (angiotensin II receptor antagonist).

Take a look at this: Angiotensin II is a natural substance in your body that affects your cardiovascular system in many ways, such as by narrowing your blood vessels. This narrowing can increase your blood pressure and force your heart to work harder

Now that i think about it....i remember that after having an O, one of the symptoms is that i can feel my heart pumping harder. The pumping is quite more strong and noticeable.

Another alternative are Alpha blockers: "They relax certain muscles and help small blood vessels remain open. They work by keeping the hormone norepinephrine (noradrenaline) from tightening the muscles in the walls of smaller arteries and veins. Blocking that effect causes the vessels to remain open and relaxed. This improves blood flow and lowers blood pressure.

Because alpha blockers also relax other muscles throughout the body, these medications can help improve urine flow in older men with prostate problems."


Another alternative i can think of as now is nitric oxide supplements (NO2) taken an hour before having an O. They use to sell them for boybuilding. Finally, another one interesting could be indomethacin (it is used to treat sexual headaches), but i think someone in the forum tried it without too much success.






Very interesting!

I am getting major POIS relief from testosterone.

And I also take metropolol, Levitra, and Niaspan (extended release Niacin).

I hope that I'm not over-dilating!!!

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14269 on: 10/08/2011 11:03:20 »

Very interesting!

I am getting major POIS relief from testosterone.

And I also take metropolol, Levitra, and Niaspan (extended release Niacin).

I hope that I'm not over-dilating!!!

Great! That should be helpful. However, metropolol can cause erectile dysfuntion, while nebivolol doesn't: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17324145

I think both Nebivolol (B1 receptor blocker) and carvedilol (B1,B2 and Alpha1 blocker) are very good at Nitric Oxide Release, specially Nebivolol:

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/107/21/2747.short
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1089860308000426

Also, the dose for Carvedilol needed is lower than metropolol: http://www.journalclub.org/2004/11/14/n20

"Nebivolol has proved to be as efficient as any other antihypertensive drugs (e.g. calcium channels blockers, angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors, and older ▀-blockers. It also has a good tolerability
and fewer adverse events compared with older betablockers"


Having read some articles, i would recommend Nebivolol over other 3rd generation beta-blockers for POIS.

Carvedilol seems to be more aggressive than Nebivolol. And Metropolol seems to be less effective than the other two.

Also, Valsartan (Angiotensin II receptor antagonist) seems to be as effective as Nebivolol: http://www.dicle.edu.tr/fakulte/tip/dergi/yayin/372/01.pdf

Both, Valsartan and Nebivolol seem to improve Nitric Oxide, and have fewer side effects than others.

The natural alternative is taking L-Arginine, but i think it's not very effective.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2011 11:10:20 by Quasar »

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Offline TIMRIL

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« Reply #14270 on: 10/08/2011 15:04:05 »



Hello everyone,

A friend of mine has been suffering on a daily basis from physical symptoms identical to those of POIS, for about ten years already. He was diagnozed with Fibromyalgia (which has no treatment as far as I know. At least he didn't find one).

Yesterday he told me that he has been sufferring from the symptoms (I guess more than usual, he didn't elaborate) also after ejaculating, and that he believes he has POIS.

Through out the years he has had lots of tests and turned to lots of specialists who took his money and didn't really help him. When he discovered that POIS existed and that he was not alone or crazy, he turned to his doctors who dismissed his claims explaining that its all psychological and that he should see a psychologist (which he does!).

From what I read untill now, I strongly believe that there is a connection between the POIS and the Fibromyalgia.

My question is that (and thank you for reading so far! [;)]):
Does any of you suffer from those symptoms (especially physical, but not only) also without having ejaculated? even for only a period?

TNX a lot!

Timri.



TIMRIL, there are over 300 posts here addressing fibromyalgia.

Maybe they can help:
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=fibromyalgia+POIS+site:http%3A%2F%2Fthenakedscientists.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=64480e3e283e02ba&biw=1045&bih=471





Oh wow, tnx, I have no idea why I didn't think of doing that myself... thank you very much!

By the way, while looking for information, I found this:
http://www.mycandidacleanse.com/could-pois-post-orgasmic-illness-syndrome-be-candida/
I guess you all know already what there is to know about POIS, but just in case...

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Offline Vincent M

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« Reply #14271 on: 10/08/2011 15:14:25 »
I had quite a carefully thought out post about a POIS theory, asking for comments, and it seems to have been buried very quickly by intro posts, etc., and forgotten.  And before that I had had asked a question about niacinamide and it was also ignored.  This sort of thing seems to be happening lately as the number of new posters has been increasing, and the welcome posts have been getting longer, etc.

To help with the conversation in this thread, I suggest just linking to the full welcome post. For example, the new welcome could be:

"Welcome <name>,

Please see this link for a full introduction to this thread:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg364636#msg364636

We look forward to your posts!
"

And we could use tinyurl to make the url more manageable.  What do you think Demo (and others)?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

By the way the reason I personally didn't respond to your post about sex/porn addiction is because this topic was recently discussed on the other forum and I feel it is sort of a dead end theory at least for me. Besides I seriously doubt those of us who only have an orgasm once a week are addicted to porn or sex. But anyway I've already put all my thoughts on that topic into the other forum.
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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« Reply #14272 on: 10/08/2011 19:04:14 »
I had quite a carefully thought out post about a POIS theory, asking for comments, and it seems to have been buried very quickly by intro posts, etc., and forgotten.  And before that I had had asked a question about niacinamide and it was also ignored.  This sort of thing seems to be happening lately as the number of new posters has been increasing, and the welcome posts have been getting longer, etc.

To help with the conversation in this thread, I suggest just linking to the full welcome post. For example, the new welcome could be:

"Welcome <name>,

Please see this link for a full introduction to this thread:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg364636#msg364636

We look forward to your posts!
"

And we could use tinyurl to make the url more manageable.  What do you think Demo (and others)?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

By the way the reason I personally didn't respond to your post about sex/porn addiction is because this topic was recently discussed on the other forum and I feel it is sort of a dead end theory at least for me. Besides I seriously doubt those of us who only have an orgasm once a week are addicted to porn or sex. But anyway I've already put all my thoughts on that topic into the other forum.

I was going to add it is better to post something you want giving lots of attention to on the other forum. As this forum attention shiftes in the same direction it is hard to give attention to a new topic when there is still exictment about a certain topic.

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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« Reply #14273 on: 10/08/2011 19:32:10 »
I dont know who brought this up but somebody just said niacin helps their other allegy.
this supports the allergy theory of niacin. it uses up the histamine necessary to cause allergic reaction from orgasm.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14274 on: 10/08/2011 22:08:39 »
I agree with CCconfucius that "... it is better to post something you want giving lots of attention to on the other forum. As this forum attention shiftes in the same direction it is hard to give attention to a new topic when there is still exictment about a certain topic."

Thanks, CC! [:)]

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Offline Guthrie

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« Reply #14275 on: 11/08/2011 01:33:32 »
this supports the allergy theory of niacin. it uses up the histamine necessary to cause allergic reaction from orgasm.

Check this out:
(from: http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T120793.html )

Quote
Niacin, taken orally as nicotinic acid, can produce redness, warmth, and itching over areas of the skin; this "niacin flush" usually occurs when doses of 50mg or more are taken and is a result of the release of histamine by the cells, which causes vasodilation. This reaction is harmless; it may even be helpful by enhancing blood flow to the "flushed" areas, and it lasts only 10-20 minutes. When these larger doses of niacin are taken regularly, this reaction no longer occurs because stores of histamine are reduced.

So, it may be that it is OK to take niacin regularly--that is, even if you build up tolerance so that it no longer causes a flush, it might still be able to prevent POIS because it is still 'using up' the histamine.

But, I guess we'd have to test that -- someone for whom niacin helps their POIS would need to try taking the niacin on a regular basis (i.e. every day, rather than only on O-days), and see if the helping-effect is diminished by the regular-basis ingestion, or whether the helping-effect is still preserved.

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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« Reply #14276 on: 11/08/2011 03:14:02 »
This is a possible niacin solution for those always in pois because of NES.
If you are always in pois because NES, start using niacin at night right before going to sleep, so when you do have an NE it wont cause pois.  But inorder to prevent you from using it for a whole week ( or as long as it takes you to recover if it is over a week) start taking niacin four days after your orgasm until you heal when you do heal have an orgasm with niacin to prevent pois.   Wait four days without niacin and have an orgasm using niacin on the fourth day. That way you are not uisng niacin everyday and reducing your chances of NEs. 

*  The reason why i use four days is because that is when i start having NEs after orgasm.

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Offline Counterpoints

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« Reply #14277 on: 11/08/2011 15:24:58 »
I had quite a carefully thought out post about a POIS theory, asking for comments, and it seems to have been buried very quickly by intro posts, etc., and forgotten.  And before that I had had asked a question about niacinamide and it was also ignored.  This sort of thing seems to be happening lately as the number of new posters has been increasing, and the welcome posts have been getting longer, etc.

To help with the conversation in this thread, I suggest just linking to the full welcome post. For example, the new welcome could be:

"Welcome <name>,

Please see this link for a full introduction to this thread:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg364636#msg364636

We look forward to your posts!
"

And we could use tinyurl to make the url more manageable.  What do you think Demo (and others)?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Thanks. I would like a response by Demografx about the solution to the intro post being way too long, which was indeed the main point of my above post. (The solution being a very short intro post, with a link to a longer one).  Any given page may have 3 massive intro posts on it, and very little other content.  The thread is getting very hard to read because of this, and I think we can fix this with a short intro and a link.

Along those lines, I also suggest (to everyone) when responding to a massive post, not quoting the whole post, but just quoting the relevant parts, or the first few sentences.

These two things should greatly help the readability of this thread.

By the way the reason I personally didn't respond to your post about sex/porn addiction is because this topic was recently discussed on the other forum...

Many of us do not read the other forum.... and I am sorry to hear it is hurting the ability to discuss new topics in this thread.  I do agree with CC's point, though, that the other forum is more suited to changes of topic.

Besides I seriously doubt those of us who only have an orgasm once a week are addicted to porn or sex. But anyway I've already put all my thoughts on that topic into the other forum.

I disagree, and I don't think the logic here makes that much sense...  I have orgasm less than once a week, but of course that was not always the case.  Many alcoholics, etc., will not drink alcohol for years.  That does not mean they are no longer addicted. In fact, imagine that an alcoholic DID still have alcohol once a week, rather than quitting entirely.  I am sure that would be quite a terrible experience.  If POIS is like an addiction, a problem is that we are addicted to a natural process in our bodies, which makes it very very hard to escape from.  It's not like we can say, 'OK no more orgasm or sexual stimuli ever'.  It's something that's not as much in our power.

This addiction theory seems to relate to Marnia's theory... The problem, though, is she seems to think this applies to pretty much everyone.  But I don't think POIS is just a more extreme version of what everyone experiences... I think it's something quite different.

It also relates to the neurochemical theories, which in my opinion, intuitively seems more likely than allergy/immune route.

However, I am seeing a real research immunologist soon, so I will be able to report back on that! :)
« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 16:40:44 by Counterpoints »

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Offline Counterpoints

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« Reply #14278 on: 11/08/2011 15:28:38 »
So, it may be that it is OK to take niacin regularly--that is, even if you build up tolerance so that it no longer causes a flush, it might still be able to prevent POIS because it is still 'using up' the histamine.

I don't think POIS is about histamine though.  Have antihistamines worked for anyone? 

Though perhaps it is also depleting other things involved in immune reactions..

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14279 on: 11/08/2011 17:33:04 »
Hi,

I'm waiting for approval of my user in the new forums. Once i get that, i would like to make a post about the Circulatory System. In fact is similar to the Vasospasm theory a member has already posted.

I really believe in this theory. Keep in mind that poor blood circulation in the brain can have severe cognitive symptoms. It can even resemble allergic reactions. There are brain areas related to Sneeze, etc. And also, keep in mind that a problem in the circulatory system can also affect the liver, heart, stomach, etc, so the endocrine system becomes affected too.

Niacin flush and levitra seem to work to some members, and i think it's because it's vasodilating properties. But not all vasodilatons are going to work. We should find what are the best ones. I think, at least in theory, that Valsartan and Nebivolol are two beta-blockers that should work quite well, because the have strong vasodilating properties AND they release Nitric Oxide. They should work much better to us than propranolol, for example.

Some questions you may ask:

+ ┐Why do we have more inelastic blood vessels than normal people? The answer could be that we have these inelastic vessels only in key areas that precipitate POIS, and the problem only shows when we put our circulatory system into  a stress test (as having an O.). Also, it could be they are perfectly elastic, but they contract too much.

+ ┐Why do we have blood vessels too contracted before having an O.? The answer could be: because of a nitric oxide deficit, or because of a too high sensisivity to adrenaline, neurotransmitter imbalances, etc.

+ ┐After having an O., do our blood vessels become, ironically, too dilated? I think that Yes, because of the spike in blood pressure from the O, and the release of inflamating hormones and other substances (histamine, serotonin, etc)

Also, we can combine this circulatory strategy with an hormonal balacing strategy.

I give you an example of a regimen i would like to try: 

Niacin (before sex, and/or every day)
+
Nebivolol (every day; it needs some weeks to work)
+
Levitra (check compatibility if taken with beta-blockers)
+
Testosterone (a lot of member are in the low-normal range)
+
(Finasteride: optional) (sex can affect DHT levels). Did not work for some members
+
Bioflavonoids (take every day) (Reduces blood vessel fragility and vascular permeability): rutin, quercitin...
+
Vitamin C + Vitamin B12 + Vitamin D3 (vitamins for energy and antioxidants)

I hope you like it!

Finally, take a look at this sentence i've found:  "Vascular permeability was stimulated by a nonspecific pro-inflammatory agent (carrageenan), by drugs that disrupt endothelial cells junction (histamine, serotonin or bradykinin)".

Some Nsaids reduce vascular permeability and inflamation, like Indomethacin. But i think some members already tried it. Remember Nsaid can be tough on the stomach, so it is wise to take them with food and a stomach protector.
« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 20:12:34 by Quasar »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14280 on: 11/08/2011 19:21:10 »




There has been a suggestion to post only the link to the welcome post when a new member introduces him/herself for the first time on NSF.  However, there will be no generalizing of our WELCOME POST. Each new member will continue to receive a warm, personal welcome.

DEMO





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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14281 on: 11/08/2011 19:33:32 »


I'm in POIS too, so I could only come up with this idea for a T-shirt:






If you're curious about the above, see the discussion which starts with B_Daniel's post at:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.msg2156#msg2156   [:)]


I got a couple of quotes for 100 T-Shirts

[attachment=15088]


This was the most expensive. Donors could look at buying this $7.22 T-Shirt for a minimum of $100, proceeds going to NORD, something like that.


The expensive one is mine. I liked the idea of the shirt pocket! [;D]

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Offline Guthrie

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« Reply #14282 on: 11/08/2011 19:37:10 »
There has been a suggestion to post only the link to the welcome post when a new member introduces him/herself for the first time on NSF.  However, there will be no generalizing of our WELCOME POST. Each new member will continue to receive a warm, personal welcome.

DEMO

Demo -- I'm a bit unclear -- couldn't you continue to give the warm, personal welcome, but one which would not need to list all of the lengthier listing of articles, google-searching, etc.  I.e. there can still be a briefer, "Welcome, [specific person], etc." but then with a link to a designated place on the new forum that lists all the specific details?  That would seem to preserve the 'personal' side, and cut down on the length.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14283 on: 11/08/2011 20:19:32 »



Guthrie, for YOU I'll think about it. [:)]

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14284 on: 11/08/2011 20:22:14 »

BTW, Guthrie, I also send the same message intact as a PM (Private Message). Part of the personalization _is_ the length. But I promised you I would keep thinking.

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Offline Pharaoh

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« Reply #14285 on: 11/08/2011 20:53:56 »
So, it may be that it is OK to take niacin regularly--that is, even if you build up tolerance so that it no longer causes a flush, it might still be able to prevent POIS because it is still 'using up' the histamine.

I don't think POIS is about histamine though.  Have antihistamines worked for anyone? 

Though perhaps it is also depleting other things involved in immune reactions..

I was prescribed antihistamines (Allegra 180mg/day and Cyproheptadine 4 mg/day) and not only didn't they work, but I suffered from suicidal thoughts during POIS.  I am convinced that the serotonin/dopamine levels are significantly suppressed causing the depression/brain fog/anxiety/anti-social symptoms we experience.

Regarding your previous post about masturbation addiction, this was my hypothesis before I came across this forum and POIS.  I was clearly addicted to pornography and masturbation, and similar to your experience, if I even come across an adult movie title while browsing the cable guide on tv, I immediately feel a rush and elevated heart rate.  There are a number of studies suggesting that pornography and masturbation "rewires" the brain.  The effect is mechanically similar to cocaine addiction and withdrawal.  I wonder, however, how so many men with wives are suffering from this condition.  It would be interesting to have a poll to identify how many of us at one point prior to experiencing POIS symptoms would consider ourselves addicted to masturbating to pornography.  I am seeing my Endocrinologist next Tuesday and will have a long discussion with him about Niacin and Levitra. 


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Offline Hoping

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« Reply #14286 on: 11/08/2011 21:24:47 »
There has been a suggestion to post only the link to the welcome post when a new member introduces him/herself for the first time on NSF.  However, there will be no generalizing of our WELCOME POST. Each new member will continue to receive a warm, personal welcome.

DEMO


Demo -- I'm a bit unclear -- couldn't you continue to give the warm, personal welcome, but one which would not need to list all of the lengthier listing of articles, google-searching, etc.  I.e. there can still be a briefer, "Welcome, [specific person], etc." but then with a link to a designated place on the new forum that lists all the specific details?  That would seem to preserve the 'personal' side, and cut down on the length.

Long-time, no-post. At any rate, I like this idea!

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14287 on: 11/08/2011 21:26:26 »
So, it may be that it is OK to take niacin regularly--that is, even if you build up tolerance so that it no longer causes a flush, it might still be able to prevent POIS because it is still 'using up' the histamine.

I don't think POIS is about histamine though.  Have antihistamines worked for anyone? 

Though perhaps it is also depleting other things involved in immune reactions..

I was prescribed antihistamines (Allegra 180mg/day and Cyproheptadine 4 mg/day) and not only didn't they work, but I suffered from suicidal thoughts during POIS.  I am convinced that the serotonin/dopamine levels are significantly suppressed causing the depression/brain fog/anxiety/anti-social symptoms we experience.


About the serotonin/dopamine levels, did anyone get it tested in blood? I think so. It would be interesting to know  serotonin and dopamine blood levels before an O., and after an O.

And also, very important, to have a brain SPECT showing serotonin and dopamine levels. This is crucial. But it is difficult to justify to a doctor such an expensive technique...

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Offline Hoping

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« Reply #14288 on: 11/08/2011 21:45:03 »
Hi everyone,
I recently posted my testosterone lab results in the other forum. To avoid double-posting and to encourage the use of the other forum, I'll just post the link here.

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=17.msg2262#msg2262

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Offline FinalPanic

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« Reply #14289 on: 11/08/2011 22:24:26 »
On the subject of contracting blood vessels causing headaches after male orgasm - this is something I was aware of way before hearing about POIS there's plenty on the web about it, such as:

http://www.embarrassingproblems.com/problem/headache-during-sex


Maybe it is all related and POIS is a stronger form of the same issue. But I cannot fathom the way this now works for me I am now in day four of POIS and seemingly have got slightly worse each day. Yet a week before I was fine on the day and next day was up and about at the local ice rink skating and feeling all but cured (as if by some miracle and nothing else). Alas it was not to be as POIS has had its vengance. Just does not make sense, I cannot see that I have an allergy with varying severity. I think something is triggered during orgasm and then needs to re-set - this may take a day or a week hence my experiences. Maybe the time for the blood vessels to settle back down. Just like nervous tension or panic attacks these things can last minutes or days for no good reason. I am currently so fatigued - I find a 10 minute snooze helps recharge me during the day, but a nights sleep seemingly does not? All so weird.

Probably just the ramblings of a mad man - but we all still have POIS - so who knows...............is POIS a symptom with many different causes?
« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 22:27:20 by FinalPanic »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14290 on: 11/08/2011 22:30:22 »



I like this [short Welcome Post]  idea!


Hoping (and as i mentioned to Guthrie privately), I think the welcome message needs be repeated in its entirety each time -- not only for the newbie's sake but because one never knows when a reporter or researcher will suddenly visit the site. And for the lurkers, who represent the majority of viewers here!

The welcome message contains important information that might be seen for the very first time, and may result in something great!

IMHO, there's no reason to shorten the welcome message.

Now let's please move on to more important topics. Like POIS. Thank you!  [:)]






« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 23:24:47 by demografx »

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14291 on: 11/08/2011 23:36:42 »
On the subject of contracting blood vessels causing headaches after male orgasm - this is something I was aware of way before hearing about POIS there's plenty on the web about it, such as:

http://www.embarrassingproblems.com/problem/headache-during-sex


Maybe it is all related and POIS is a stronger form of the same issue. But I cannot fathom the way this now works for me I am now in day four of POIS and seemingly have got slightly worse each day. Yet a week before I was fine on the day and next day was up and about at the local ice rink skating and feeling all but cured (as if by some miracle and nothing else). Alas it was not to be as POIS has had its vengance. Just does not make sense, I cannot see that I have an allergy with varying severity. I think something is triggered during orgasm and then needs to re-set - this may take a day or a week hence my experiences. Maybe the time for the blood vessels to settle back down. Just like nervous tension or panic attacks these things can last minutes or days for no good reason. I am currently so fatigued - I find a 10 minute snooze helps recharge me during the day, but a nights sleep seemingly does not? All so weird.

Probably just the ramblings of a mad man - but we all still have POIS - so who knows...............is POIS a symptom with many different causes?

In migraine, vasoconstrictors are used to abort an already started migraine (triptans). Instead, vasodilators (most beta-blockers) are used to prevent them.

Remember that we had had some success with Niacin and Levitra, which have a vasodilatory action.

So, we should look for beta-blockers with a powerful vasodilatory action.

I have done some research, and Nebivolol seems to be the one that has less side effects (it does not cause erectile dysfunction). It is as effective as Metoprolol. I think Demografx is taking metoprolol, so he can tell us if it's helping. I recommended him to switch to Nebivolol.

But i don't think a beta blocker is going to be 100% of the cure. But if we combine it with Niacin, and other hormones and vitamin supplements...maybe we can have a good combo.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2011 00:10:03 by Quasar »

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Offline Vincent M

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« Reply #14292 on: 12/08/2011 00:17:35 »

The welcome message contains important information that might be seen for the very first time, and may result in something great!

IMHO, there's no reason to shorten the welcome message.

Now let's please move on to more important topics. Like POIS. Thank you!  [:)]

I suppose I now agree with Demo for the reason that members familiar with the welcome message can simply scroll past it when they see it. It doesn't waste any time since it's not like you have to read the entire message each time you see it. Just takes maybe a second to scroll past it. But more importantly it provides new visitors all the info they need to know about the forum at a glance.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2011 00:20:24 by Vincent Marcus »
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

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Offline Vincent M

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« Reply #14293 on: 12/08/2011 00:34:31 »
Counterpoints, I had forgotten that not everyone has time to read the other forum and I apologize for that.

It seems to me that you think POIS sufferers have at one time in each of their pasts had an above average frequency of orgasms/porn-viewing. I suppose this would have to be explored.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2011 00:45:41 by Vincent Marcus »
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14294 on: 12/08/2011 00:37:45 »

The welcome message contains important information that might be seen for the very first time, and may result in something great!

IMHO, there's no reason to shorten the welcome message.

Now let's please move on to more important topics. Like POIS. Thank you!  [:)]

I suppose I now agree with Demo for the reason that members familiar with the welcome message can simply scroll past it when they see it. It doesn't waste any time since it's not like you have to read the entire message each time you see it. Just takes maybe a second to scroll past it. But more importantly it provides new visitors all the info they need to know about the forum at a glance.

Thanks for the support!

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14295 on: 12/08/2011 04:50:33 »

On the subject of contracting blood vessels causing headaches after male orgasm - this is something I was aware of way before hearing about POIS there's plenty on the web about it, such as:

http://www.embarrassingproblems.com/problem/headache-during-sex


Maybe it is all related and POIS is a stronger form of the same issue. But I cannot fathom the way this now works for me I am now in day four of POIS and seemingly have got slightly worse each day. Yet a week before I was fine on the day and next day was up and about at the local ice rink skating and feeling all but cured (as if by some miracle and nothing else). Alas it was not to be as POIS has had its vengance. Just does not make sense, I cannot see that I have an allergy with varying severity. I think something is triggered during orgasm and then needs to re-set - this may take a day or a week hence my experiences. Maybe the time for the blood vessels to settle back down. Just like nervous tension or panic attacks these things can last minutes or days for no good reason. I am currently so fatigued - I find a 10 minute snooze helps recharge me during the day, but a nights sleep seemingly does not? All so weird.

Probably just the ramblings of a mad man - but we all still have POIS - so who knows...............is POIS a symptom with many different causes?



In migraine, vasoconstrictors are used to abort an already started migraine (triptans). Instead, vasodilators (most beta-blockers) are used to prevent them.

Remember that we had had some success with Niacin and Levitra, which have a vasodilatory action.

So, we should look for beta-blockers with a powerful vasodilatory action.

I have done some research, and Nebivolol seems to be the one that has less side effects (it does not cause erectile dysfunction). It is as effective as Metoprolol. I think Demografx is taking metoprolol, so he can tell us if it's helping. I recommended him to switch to Nebivolol.

But i don't think a beta blocker is going to be 100% of the cure. But if we combine it with Niacin, and other hormones and vitamin supplements...maybe we can have a good combo.



This seems to be one of the most promising discussion directions currently.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2011 04:52:23 by demografx »

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Offline Starsky

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« Reply #14296 on: 12/08/2011 12:43:10 »
I have a feeling that Niacin Pills give me a stronger flush than Xanthinol Nicotinate.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2011 17:06:08 by Starsky »

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Offline Quasar

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« Reply #14297 on: 12/08/2011 14:44:49 »

On the subject of contracting blood vessels causing headaches after male orgasm - this is something I was aware of way before hearing about POIS there's plenty on the web about it, such as:

http://www.embarrassingproblems.com/problem/headache-during-sex


Maybe it is all related and POIS is a stronger form of the same issue. But I cannot fathom the way this now works for me I am now in day four of POIS and seemingly have got slightly worse each day. Yet a week before I was fine on the day and next day was up and about at the local ice rink skating and feeling all but cured (as if by some miracle and nothing else). Alas it was not to be as POIS has had its vengance. Just does not make sense, I cannot see that I have an allergy with varying severity. I think something is triggered during orgasm and then needs to re-set - this may take a day or a week hence my experiences. Maybe the time for the blood vessels to settle back down. Just like nervous tension or panic attacks these things can last minutes or days for no good reason. I am currently so fatigued - I find a 10 minute snooze helps recharge me during the day, but a nights sleep seemingly does not? All so weird.

Probably just the ramblings of a mad man - but we all still have POIS - so who knows...............is POIS a symptom with many different causes?



In migraine, vasoconstrictors are used to abort an already started migraine (triptans). Instead, vasodilators (most beta-blockers) are used to prevent them.

Remember that we had had some success with Niacin and Levitra, which have a vasodilatory action.

So, we should look for beta-blockers with a powerful vasodilatory action.

I have done some research, and Nebivolol seems to be the one that has less side effects (it does not cause erectile dysfunction). It is as effective as Metoprolol. I think Demografx is taking metoprolol, so he can tell us if it's helping. I recommended him to switch to Nebivolol.

But i don't think a beta blocker is going to be 100% of the cure. But if we combine it with Niacin, and other hormones and vitamin supplements...maybe we can have a good combo.



This seems to be one of the most promising discussion directions currently.

Thanks demografx! So, i think it's time i start buying some of these drugs. How much niacin are you taking everyday? Do you take a little more the day you plan to have an O.?

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Offline cornelius

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« Reply #14298 on: 12/08/2011 15:03:46 »
The welcome message contains important information that might be seen for the very first time, and may result in something great!
IMHO, there's no reason to shorten the welcome message.

I suppose I now agree with Demo for the reason that members familiar with the welcome message can simply scroll past it when they see it. It doesn't waste any time since it's not like you have to read the entire message each time you see it. Just takes maybe a second to scroll past it. But more importantly it provides new visitors all the info they need to know about the forum at a glance.

The welcome message is an absolutely fantastic part of the community that has built up here. I speak as someone who spends most of my life in a mental fog in which I find navigating this thread completely overwhelming. The welcome post is a great summary and place to start for people who are like me -- and it should stay that way.

On the other hand, it would be better if it were shorter, for the mere reason that it's pretty overwhelming as it is! Fewer links, for example to the Pyropeach PDF would make it easier to comprehend immediately (the PDF already has loads of other links and info). Try reading it from the perspective of someone who loses track of long sentences, paragraphs beyond 3 lines and skips beyond the post if he gets frustrated :(  (it took me years to realise that this was happening to me)


It seems to me that you think POIS sufferers have at one time in each of their pasts had an above average frequency of orgasms/porn-viewing. I suppose this would have to be explored.
Definitely a good idea for a poll on the other forum. Something like "When you were most active, how many times a week would you masturbate to porn". The other thing that you have to realise is that there's no established average frequency!


On another note: someone should email http://www.embarrassingproblems.com/ to get us a page there! That would funnel more people suffering from POIS here.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2011 15:08:56 by cornelius »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14299 on: 12/08/2011 18:56:51 »

How much niacin are you taking everyday?


I don't think I'm a good example. I take 500mg per day of Niaspan (extended-release niacin), along with 325 mg of aspirin to counter the flush.

I'm a bad example because:

1) I take it daily - building tolerance. Seems the ideal way for POIS is "as-needed"  dosing.

2) I _counter_  the flush. The flush seems to be necessary for POIS amelioration.

My main objective is cholesterol treatment, not POIS.

Testosterone is still my "POIS savior". Plus ADHD meds. And possibly Levitra.