Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

  • 20068 Replies
  • 6527577 Views

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

*

Offline Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 285
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17750 on: 16/02/2013 05:04:47 »
Today was my fifth day on acetyl-L-carnitine without b-complex. I had disruptive pain in my knees and eyes for the first time in a while today so I'm going to assume for now that both the vitamins and ALC played a role in my improvement. I'm impatient to move on with trials for some herbs I haven't opened yet, but I'll continue taking ALC once or twice a day and b-complex about 3 times a week.
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17751 on: 18/02/2013 03:06:03 »
Kurtosis:

First, a big thank-you for figuring out a recipe to cope with POIS. A long-time POIS sufferer here and recently got my 23andme sample sequenced. I am posting it here just for comparison. I tried a modified "Kurtosis recipe" and so far the result suggest my POIS symptoms come from undermethylation, low BH4, and something resolved with daily Ginkgo. There is probably some additional genetic components that we don't know yet, because otherwise 7% of the population should have POIS as well.

Gene & Variation rsID Alleles Result
COMT V158M rs4680 GG -/-
COMT H62H rs4633 CC -/-
COMT P199P rs769224 AG +/-
VDR Bsm rs1544410 CC -/-
VDR Taq rs731236 AA +/+
VDR Fok-I not found n/a n/a
MAO A R297R rs6323 G -
ACAT1-02 rs3741049 GG -/-
MTHFR C677T rs1801133 GG -/-
MTHFR 03 P39P rs2066470 AA +/+
MTHFR A1298C rs1801131 GG +/+

MTR A2756G rs1805087 AA -/-
MTRR A66G rs1801394 AA -/-
MTRR H595Y rs10380 CC -/-
MTRR K350A rs162036 AA -/-
MTRR R415T rs2287780 CT +/-
MTRR S257T not found n/a n/a
MTRR A664A rs1802059 GG -/-
BHMT-01 not found n/a n/a
BHMT-02 rs567754 CT +/-
BHMT-04 rs617219 AC +/-
BHMT-08 rs651852 CT +/-
AHCY-01 rs819147 CT +/-
AHCY-02 rs819134 AG +/-
AHCY-19 rs819171 CT +/-
AHCY-19 rs819171 CT +/-
CBS C699T rs234706 AG +/-
CBS A360A rs1801181 AG +/-

CBS N212N rs2298758 GG -/-
SUOX S370S not found n/a n/a
NOS3 D298E not found n/a n/a
SHMT1 C1420T rs1979277 GG -/-



*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17752 on: 18/02/2013 03:12:40 »
My typical symptoms:

onset: 1-2 hrs after orgasm, typically it takes 4-5 days to resolve. the first 2 days can be paralyzing

Very sleepy during the day, even with 10+ hrs of sleep (I normally sleep 8 hrs)
immediately tired after breakfast.

Cognitative:
very poor working memory

ADHD behavior,
Example:I cannot finish unloading a dish-washer under POIS without switching to something else in the middle of it.

Socially withdrawn
     
Emotional
Negative thoughts, low self-esteem, lots of self-criticism
Very Irritable

Low physical energy
max weight reduced by 40-50% in weight training
headache during physical exertion (e.g. running)

Blurred vision

Mild-Flu-like symptoms
     sore throat
     sneezing
     cough

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17753 on: 18/02/2013 03:21:33 »
My current daily supplement routine.
upon wake-up: Now-brand NADH 10mg (rocket fuel indeed). no eating for 25-30 mins.
after breakfast: Fish oil, Ginkgo 120mg, Vitamine D 2000IU, Methyl-Guardx1 capsule
            Wellbutrin 100mg SR (being taking this for a year before I discovered the POIS thread)
after lunch: Ginkgo 60mg, Vitamin C, Multi-vitamin
before sleep: Now-brand Arginine+Ornithine 500/250mg x 2 (to reduce ammonia)
                  Loratadine 10mg, ZMA(1 capsule only: 10mg zinc, 5mg Pryidoxine HCL, 150mg Mg), p5p 50mg.

additional Ginkgo, VC and 1 Methyl-Guard after orgasm

I would say this routine eliminated 90% of the cognitive symptoms.

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17754 on: 18/02/2013 12:18:04 »
My current daily supplement routine.
upon wake-up: Now-brand NADH 10mg (rocket fuel indeed). no eating for 25-30 mins.
after breakfast: Fish oil, Ginkgo 120mg, Vitamine D 2000IU, Methyl-Guardx1 capsule
            Wellbutrin 100mg SR (being taking this for a year before I discovered the POIS thread)
after lunch: Ginkgo 60mg, Vitamin C, Multi-vitamin
before sleep: Now-brand Arginine+Ornithine 500/250mg x 2 (to reduce ammonia)
                  Loratadine 10mg, ZMA(1 capsule only: 10mg zinc, 5mg Pryidoxine HCL, 150mg Mg), p5p 50mg.

additional Ginkgo, VC and 1 Methyl-Guard after orgasm

I would say this routine eliminated 90% of the cognitive symptoms.

Wow. good to know that other people are getting the same relief.
You have symptoms which are quite similar to mine and you seem to be taking similar supplements. I actually simplified my routine a lot which now consists of
- a fish oil with olive oil and lemon oil. This has none of the rancid taste of some fish oils.
- a multivitamin with active b vitamins, coq10 and other antioxidants. I get about 400 mcg of methylfolate / day and about 500mcg of both adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin.
(as I've posted before, I have a theory that methylation defects can cause inflammatory disease and active b vitamins particularly folate and b12 can help reduce or reverse these symptoms)
- blueberry extract with pterostilbene. Sometimes I actually just eat blueberries (old fashioned) but they appear to help reduce cognitive symptoms. I couldn't tell you whether it's the methylated b vitamins, the anthocyanins or the pterstilbene in blueberries that works. Maybe it's all these but blueberries definitely seem to help.

I'm reaching for the NADH less these days but, yes, I found it useful in reducing fatigue.

I believe the improvement we're noticing from NADH is increased energy and increased glutathione production. I also worry about fluctuating homocysteine levels that may contribute to the dull headache that some of us get. Just some thoughts. I realise that none of this is conclusive.

*

Offline gondal4

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 68
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17755 on: 18/02/2013 12:31:15 »
what is test name for gene thing?

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17756 on: 18/02/2013 13:25:43 »
Wow. good to know that other people are getting the same relief.
You have symptoms which are quite similar to mine and you seem to be taking similar supplements. I actually simplified my routine a lot which now consists of
- a fish oil with olive oil and lemon oil. This has none of the rancid taste of some fish oils.
- a multivitamin with active b vitamins, coq10 and other antioxidants. I get about 400 mcg of methylfolate / day and about 500mcg of both adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin.
(as I've posted before, I have a theory that methylation defects can cause inflammatory disease and active b vitamins particularly folate and b12 can help reduce or reverse these symptoms)
- blueberry extract with pterostilbene. Sometimes I actually just eat blueberries (old fashioned) but they appear to help reduce cognitive symptoms. I couldn't tell you whether it's the methylated b vitamins, the anthocyanins or the pterstilbene in blueberries that works. Maybe it's all these but blueberries definitely seem to help.

I'm reaching for the NADH less these days but, yes, I found it useful in reducing fatigue.

I believe the improvement we're noticing from NADH is increased energy and increased glutathione production. I also worry about fluctuating homocysteine levels that may contribute to the dull headache that some of us get. Just some thoughts. I realise that none of this is conclusive.

It took me 2 whole days to read and understand all your posts here and at poiscenter to get the complete Kurtosis recipe (or the evolution of it). :)

Is the multivitamin you are taking now Thorn Extra Nutrients? I am not entirely sure how it compares with Methyl-guard, because it has 30mg Niacin per 500mcg Methyltetrahydrofolate and 225mcg Methylcobalamin. + 130mg of Niacinamide.
It seems that Niacin and Niacinamide are both methyl-acceptors that could negate the effect of methylfolate.

What's your thoughts? Thanks!

Also, you are not taking Ginkgo or VC any more?

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17757 on: 18/02/2013 13:33:40 »
what is test name for gene thing?

It's done through 23andme.com
~$108 in the US and it takes 4-6 weeks to get the results.

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17758 on: 18/02/2013 13:39:32 »
I'm reaching for the NADH less these days but, yes, I found it useful in reducing fatigue.

I believe the improvement we're noticing from NADH is increased energy and increased glutathione production. I also worry about fluctuating homocysteine levels that may contribute to the dull headache that some of us get. Just some thoughts. I realise that none of this is conclusive.

I notice that you are 1298C +/- and I am 1298C+/+. my current understanding is that 1298C+ leads to low BH4, which in turn reduces L-DOPA and 5-HTP production in the brain. NADH recycles BH2->BH4, thereby increasing DA, 5-HT, NE and E levels..

You think glutathion pathway is more influential?

BTW fluctuating homocysteine levels is induced by NADH intake?

Thanks again!

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17759 on: 18/02/2013 14:58:30 »
I'm reaching for the NADH less these days but, yes, I found it useful in reducing fatigue.

I believe the improvement we're noticing from NADH is increased energy and increased glutathione production. I also worry about fluctuating homocysteine levels that may contribute to the dull headache that some of us get. Just some thoughts. I realise that none of this is conclusive.

I notice that you are 1298C +/- and I am 1298C+/+. my current understanding is that 1298C+ leads to low BH4, which in turn reduces L-DOPA and 5-HTP production in the brain. NADH recycles BH2->BH4, thereby increasing DA, 5-HT, NE and E levels..

You think glutathion pathway is more influential?

BTW fluctuating homocysteine levels is induced by NADH intake?

Thanks again!

Nope, not saying that NADH intake causes fluctuating homocysteine levels.
I know NADH can be used to recycle bh4 and reduce ammonia levels. Another possibility is synthetic BH4. I think there's a product called Kuvan but I have not tried it. It's prescription only so, as usual, discuss it with your doctor.

We both have CBS mutations.
However, I think that some of our illness (and this may not apply to other POIS sufferers, just those that have A1298c and/or MTHFR C677T mutations) may be caused by low levels of glutathione.
My skin and stomach problems improve very quickly when I add supplementary glutathione. I just don't think I'm making enough of this normally and need a helping hand.

*

Offline gondal4

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 68
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17760 on: 19/02/2013 16:04:35 »
any one else here has problem with running,playing sports?? any idea why iam having this problem since begiinnig of POIS,any linkages?

*

Offline Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 285
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17761 on: 19/02/2013 17:13:12 »
gondal, did you read my post in which I said that fenugreek+tea or nutmeg help my joint pain? I suspect my joint pain is caused by inflammation from POIS. Although it could also be caused by anything that POIS does to inhibit tissue growth and repair.
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

*

Offline Nightingale

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 92
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17762 on: 20/02/2013 01:55:21 »
Wow, romies, congratulations on finding something that works for you!  Must be a big relief.  I'm still searching for my own solution, because it turns out I don't respond to the same treatments you and kurtosis have had success with.  I think my issue is that I am over-methylated, and combined with COMT and MAO-A mutations I quickly experience negative effects from methionine and other methyl donors.  I suffer from psychosis unless I'm taking dopamine-blocking drugs, and I have terrible reactions to some meds that block the reuptake of dopamine or norepinephrine (Wellbutrin).

My Genetic Genie results:



I have 3 homozygous mutations on my AHCY gene.  From my understanding this would increase methylation.  What's confusing is I also have 3 homozygous mutations on my BHMT gene, which would reduce the conversion of homocystine to methionine, a decrease in methylation.  I'm pretty sure that's right, correct me if I'm wrong!  The CBS mutation should also decrease methylation, so I'm guessing that homocystine levels are not indicative of very much for me.  My last check was very normal.  Is the methylation problem (be it over or under) resulting in a normal homocystine level by having mutations that both increase and decrease methylation?

I'm curious if I would respond to treatment that people with hypermethionemia have.  http://wiki.medpedia.com/Hypermethioninemia

I don't know exactly what that treatment is though, I havn't found a good resource on that.

Besides the BH4/mast cell connection, I still have no idea how this would cause increased symptoms after orgasm!

*

Offline gondal4

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 68
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17763 on: 20/02/2013 07:32:01 »
gondal, did you read my post in which I said that fenugreek+tea or nutmeg help my joint pain? I suspect my joint pain is caused by inflammation from POIS. Although it could also be caused by anything that POIS does to inhibit tissue growth and repair.
nO fenugreek tea didnt had any effect on me.......And iam talking not about joint pain only but generraly i feel older and cannot or play sports.it is since beginning of POIS when iwas 18,now iam 25..

*

Offline Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 285
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17764 on: 20/02/2013 12:15:48 »
gondal, I feel increased endurance(less fatigue) during exercise or sports the day after I take niacin if I take it and have a flush before an "o". The flush is a slight redness of the skin with a hot, itchy feeling. Safest to start with 50mg nicotinic acid which is the form of niacin you would want. If 50mg doesn't cause a flush I would bump it up to 100mg, and so on. I need about 500mg because my bottle of niacin is old and I didn't seal it properly so it lost potency quickly.
« Last Edit: 20/02/2013 12:17:49 by Vincent M »
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

*

Offline gondal4

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 68
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17765 on: 20/02/2013 12:30:21 »
what i meant was i cannot run and feel older and i have symptoms too like wrinkles on hand and feet,eye sight weakness,memory,etc.....and these all symptoms started at the time when POIS started? so i was asking is there a connection? and im talking generally about running,playing sports not in the days after POIS because i cannot move after O.

*

Offline Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 285
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17766 on: 20/02/2013 13:14:17 »
Found this about hypermethioninemia:

"Treatment of CBS deficiency usually begins with a trial of oral vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) supplementation, with daily measurement of plasma amino acids. CBS requires pyridoxine as a coenzyme for enzymatic activity. Overall, about 25% of patients respond to large doses of pyridoxine, although the percentage may be lower for patients identified through newborn screening. This pyridoxine response usually coincides with the presence of some residual enzyme activity. Dietary restriction of Methionine in conjunction with Cystine supplementation reverses the biochemical abnormalities to some extent and appears to reduce the clinical symptoms. Special formulas are available commercially, but the diet is difficult to maintain long term. In an attempt to decrease Homocysteine levels, folic acid, and betaine can be supplemented to induce recycling of this amino acid to Methionine for alternate metabolism. Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) may also be helpful.
Because the diagnosis and therapy of Homocystinuria is complex, the pediatrician is advised to manage the patient in close collaboration with a consulting pediatric metabolic disease specialist. It is recommended that parents travel with a letter of treatment guidelines from the patient’s physician."
http://www.perkinelmergenetics.com/Hypermethioninemia.htm

I wonder if this is why B-complex improves my symptoms, but methionine seems to make me slightly worse.
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17767 on: 20/02/2013 13:32:16 »
Wow, romies, congratulations on finding something that works for you!  Must be a big relief.  I'm still searching for my own solution, because it turns out I don't respond to the same treatments you and kurtosis have had success with.  I think my issue is that I am over-methylated, and combined with COMT and MAO-A mutations I quickly experience negative effects from methionine and other methyl donors.  I suffer from psychosis unless I'm taking dopamine-blocking drugs, and I have terrible reactions to some meds that block the reuptake of dopamine or norepinephrine (Wellbutrin).

My Genetic Genie results:



I have 3 homozygous mutations on my AHCY gene.  From my understanding this would increase methylation.  What's confusing is I also have 3 homozygous mutations on my BHMT gene, which would reduce the conversion of homocystine to methionine, a decrease in methylation.  I'm pretty sure that's right, correct me if I'm wrong!  The CBS mutation should also decrease methylation, so I'm guessing that homocystine levels are not indicative of very much for me.  My last check was very normal.  Is the methylation problem (be it over or under) resulting in a normal homocystine level by having mutations that both increase and decrease methylation?

I'm curious if I would respond to treatment that people with hypermethionemia have.  http://wiki.medpedia.com/Hypermethioninemia

I don't know exactly what that treatment is though, I havn't found a good resource on that.

Besides the BH4/mast cell connection, I still have no idea how this would cause increased symptoms after orgasm!

Quote
The AHCY gene provides instructions for producing the enzyme S-adenosylhomocysteine hydrolase. This enzyme converts the AdoHcy into the compound homocysteine.
But methionine is methylated homocysteine. I'm not sure it's as simple as saying that ACHY mutations will automatically increase methylation. SAM-e is the main methyl donor, not methionine. If you're body can't produce SAM-e from methionine then it may build up methionine and you may start to smell funny but you also won't have enough SAM-e and will have a range of symptoms from that including difficulty thinking, healing etc.

If you look at the heartfixer website then your genetics would indicate the following:

VDR (+/+) and COMT (+/-)
Quote
COMT (+/-) and VDR (+/+) behaves like COMT (-/-)
Therefore
Quote
Lowest dopamine levels
Poor tolerance to toxins and microbes
Needs and tolerates dopamine precursors and methyl donors
Lowest susceptibility to mood swings

MAO A you know about.

Quote
Monoamine Oxidase A breaks down serotonin, a neurotransmitter that is generated from the dietary amino acid tryptophan, in a BH4 requiring reaction.  Many anti-depressant drugs, including the SSRIs (Serotonin Selective Reuptake Inhibitors) work by blocking the breakdown of serotonin.  Defects in serotonin metabolism have been associated with mood and neurological disorders.  How best to address the MAO A R297R abnormality is not clear to me.  As serotonin metabolism is adversely affected, individuals with the R297R defect should avoid large doses of high tryptophan foods (see appendix).  High doses of St. John’s Wort, often taken to address depression, could lead to mood swings as serotonin levels fluctuate.

BHMT
Quote
Phosphatidylcholine, or as a less expensive alternative, Phosphatidylserine 100 mg daily, to stimulate the BHMT reaction
Betaine or TMG is also possible in those without COMT (+/+)

On to AHCY
Quote
S-Adenosyl Methionine (SAMe), the key methyl donor generated from methionine, is metabolized in to S-Adenosyl Methionine, and then on to homocysteine by AHCY.  Individuals (+) for both AHCY and CBS often have low baseline urine sulfate levels, which then rise and fall  in response to treatment.  Early on the levels rise, as the “bottle neck” abnormal AHCY enzyme has been “limiting the supply” of homocysteine.

There are reports on phoenixrising.me of people with COMT (-/-) and AHCY taking SAMe with some success. The CBS mutation tends to shove the outputs towards ammonia which requires BH4 to clear. You've already sent me some material on this. There's synthetic BH4, supplements which may increase the creation of BH4 and NADH which may increase BH2-BH4 recycling.

MTRR and MTHFR A1298c indicate a need for methyl-b12
Quote
MTRR generates the methyl-B12 needed by MTR and many other methyl-B12 requiring enzymes.  Blood B-12 levels may be normal, but if MTRR is (+/+) or (+/-), methyl-B12 formation will be compromised, homocysteine levels will be elevated, methylation in general will be compromised, and your physiology will be compromised.   

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17768 on: 20/02/2013 13:42:51 »
Found this about hypermethioninemia:

"Treatment of CBS deficiency usually begins with a trial of oral vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) supplementation, with daily measurement of plasma amino acids. CBS requires pyridoxine as a coenzyme for enzymatic activity. Overall, about 25% of patients respond to large doses of pyridoxine, although the percentage may be lower for patients identified through newborn screening. This pyridoxine response usually coincides with the presence of some residual enzyme activity. Dietary restriction of Methionine in conjunction with Cystine supplementation reverses the biochemical abnormalities to some extent and appears to reduce the clinical symptoms. Special formulas are available commercially, but the diet is difficult to maintain long term. In an attempt to decrease Homocysteine levels, folic acid, and betaine can be supplemented to induce recycling of this amino acid to Methionine for alternate metabolism. Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) may also be helpful.
Because the diagnosis and therapy of Homocystinuria is complex, the pediatrician is advised to manage the patient in close collaboration with a consulting pediatric metabolic disease specialist. It is recommended that parents travel with a letter of treatment guidelines from the patient’s physician."
http://www.perkinelmergenetics.com/Hypermethioninemia.htm

I wonder if this is why B-complex improves my symptoms, but methionine seems to make me slightly worse.

I improve with methylfolate and methyl-b12. I get worse with over 25mg of pyroxidine / day. I don't like folic or even folinic acid. NADH makes me feel good and I think this is because it increases BH4. I feel much happier when I get only the methylfolate form of folate in my multi-vitamin and methyl b12 every day. I've learned these from trial and error. A week or so at a time and plotting general happiness and cognitive performance results.

I also take molybdenum and manganese in my multivitamin as I have all the signs of the SUOX mutation. Just the smell of red wine or perfume make me feel nauseous. 

*

Offline Nightingale

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 92
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17769 on: 20/02/2013 19:45:42 »
Thanks for your analysis, kurtosis.  I with I had known about the heartfixer website sooner, it's really where I should have started when I began my path to understanding all this.

"Understanding how to incorporate the science of Methyl Cycle Genomics in to your treatment program, and how best to monitor your individual response, will be a challenge to both of us.  If we accept this challenge, and spend time, energy, and resources in dealing with your Methyl Cycle Abnormalities, then you can take strides forward in improving your health."

That's pretty much where I'm at.  There is a lot to learn, and I need to understand why I'm taking a particular supplement because 1) I have health care providers whose trust I need and 2) I don't want to know I unwittingly made things worse for myself.

My head is fogged and my motivation is low.  But I will be chipping away at this stupid methylation cycle until I get it...

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17770 on: 21/02/2013 05:29:12 »
I believe the improvement we're noticing from NADH is increased energy and increased glutathione production. I also worry about fluctuating homocysteine levels that may contribute to the dull headache that some of us get. Just some thoughts. I realise that none of this is conclusive.

I know NADH can be used to recycle bh4 and reduce ammonia levels. Another possibility is synthetic BH4. I think there's a product called Kuvan but I have not tried it. It's prescription only so, as usual, discuss it with your doctor.

We both have CBS mutations.
However, I think that some of our illness (and this may not apply to other POIS sufferers, just those that have A1298c and/or MTHFR C677T mutations) may be caused by low levels of glutathione.
My skin and stomach problems improve very quickly when I add supplementary glutathione. I just don't think I'm making enough of this normally and need a helping hand.

good points about CBS mutations. and I remember your earlier Histamine analysis, which is brilliant.

I used to need to take daily omeprazole to deal with night-time heart burn, and daily Cetirizine for stuffy nose during sleep. I was dependent on both for ~8 years (unable to quit, because of severe symptoms ensued). Clearly having too much histamine in my system.

After starting on Methyl-guard, in a few days, I don't need either omeprazole or Cetirizine. I am taking loratadine for my allergy now. Previously loratadine was way too weak to alleviate my nasal blockage at night.

One question here: CBS mutation will up-regulate homocysteine metabolism and generate too much glutathione, according to Amy Yasko?

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17771 on: 21/02/2013 05:39:09 »
Wow, romies, congratulations on finding something that works for you!  Must be a big relief.  I'm still searching for my own solution, because it turns out I don't respond to the same treatments you and kurtosis have had success with.  I think my issue is that I am over-methylated, and combined with COMT and MAO-A mutations I quickly experience negative effects from methionine and other methyl donors.  I suffer from psychosis unless I'm taking dopamine-blocking drugs, and I have terrible reactions to some meds that block the reuptake of dopamine or norepinephrine (Wellbutrin).

My Genetic Genie results:



I have 3 homozygous mutations on my AHCY gene.  From my understanding this would increase methylation.  What's confusing is I also have 3 homozygous mutations on my BHMT gene, which would reduce the conversion of homocystine to methionine, a decrease in methylation.  I'm pretty sure that's right, correct me if I'm wrong!  The CBS mutation should also decrease methylation, so I'm guessing that homocystine levels are not indicative of very much for me.  My last check was very normal.  Is the methylation problem (be it over or under) resulting in a normal homocystine level by having mutations that both increase and decrease methylation?

I'm curious if I would respond to treatment that people with hypermethionemia have.  http://wiki.medpedia.com/Hypermethioninemia

I don't know exactly what that treatment is though, I havn't found a good resource on that.

Besides the BH4/mast cell connection, I still have no idea how this would cause increased symptoms after orgasm!

Nightingale,

I am not completely out of the woods yet.. The recipe is quite complex, so if I forget one or two ingredient, I sometimes still get some POIS symptoms, but for 12-18 hrs only, as opposed to 4-5 days before.

Your COMT, VDR and MAO A profile is almost completely opposite from mine. so I guess your are more of the over-methylation type. Maybe taking Niacin before and after an O will help to mop up extra methyl and lessen the crash?

I do think there are several sub-types of POIS. maybe there is a over-methylation type, where too much dopamine was generated. Dopamine response curve is U-shaped. too much DA does degrade cognitive and may also causes dopamine receptor to down-regulate, and causes a hang-over for 4-5 days after..


*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17772 on: 21/02/2013 10:12:26 »
I have the C699T up-regulation. I read Yasko's "Genetic Bypass" book and while I'm not 100% convinced that anybody knows
1) the exact interaction between all these genes
2) that other genes are not involved that may complicate these interactions further.
I think that the methylation pathyway diagrams make a lot of sense and seem somewhat, if not entirely, complete.
Here's her quote on C699T from (page 48)
Quote
"Increased CBS enzyme activity would act to convert homocysteine more efficiently to cysteine, thereby lowering homocysteine levels. Ultimately individuals with the CBS C699T upregulation of the CBS enzyme can generate more sulfur breakdown products with potential sulfur toxicity issues, enhanced ammonia production, and a lack of glutathione."
Yasko believes that ammonia and taurine are elevated in CBS up-regulations and that glutathione is decreased.
Ammonia buildup is bad and the best way to clear it is with BH4, which can be recycled using NADH. NADH has also been shown to increase glutathione in one study I read.
See
Quote
Freedenfeld s. [et al.], Biochemical effects of Ribose and nADH Therapy in children with Autism, 2011
I don't think there are enough studies to decide it's conclusive  ;) but it's worth thinking about.

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17773 on: 21/02/2013 14:59:25 »
I have the C699T up-regulation. I read Yasko's "Genetic Bypass" book and while I'm not 100% convinced that anybody knows
1) the exact interaction between all these genes
2) that other genes are not involved that may complicate these interactions further.
I think that the methylation pathyway diagrams make a lot of sense and seem somewhat, if not entirely, complete.
Here's her quote on C699T from (page 48)
Quote
"Increased CBS enzyme activity would act to convert homocysteine more efficiently to cysteine, thereby lowering homocysteine levels. Ultimately individuals with the CBS C699T upregulation of the CBS enzyme can generate more sulfur breakdown products with potential sulfur toxicity issues, enhanced ammonia production, and a lack of glutathione."
Yasko believes that ammonia and taurine are elevated in CBS up-regulations and that glutathione is decreased.
Ammonia buildup is bad and the best way to clear it is with BH4, which can be recycled using NADH. NADH has also been shown to increase glutathione in one study I read.
See
Quote
Freedenfeld s. [et al.], Biochemical effects of Ribose and nADH Therapy in children with Autism, 2011
I don't think there are enough studies to decide it's conclusive  ;) but it's worth thinking about.

Very interesting. I hope the biomedical people can be more quantitative about the details of these pathways. I am an electrical engineer, and I see all these processes basically as systems of rate equations, which probably can be simplified into constant-coefficient ordinary differential equations (not even PDE). And our genetic profile ( and the regulation of our gene expression) determines these coefficients. Supplements are forcing functions. If these coefficients are known, one can solve for an optimal supplement regiment in MATLAB in second. :)

And blood testing may help in determine some of the constants in the equations...

I admit my thinking is probably too mechanistic for biologic systems....


*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17774 on: 21/02/2013 15:23:27 »
Well, octave was developed so chemical engineering students would have a free version of MATLAB to solve exactly these kinds of equations. However,there are feedback loops as CBS takes from homocysteine which reduces the amount for remethylation to methionine which further slows the methylation cycle. That's why understanding the methylation cycle perfectly can help give an optimal supplementation path.
Ideally, that's what nutrigenomics should do. A combination of functional testing and genetic testing should lead to an optimisation problem such that over time the supplementation produces metabolic equilibrium with normal (or indeed optimum) levels of certain enzymes and their co-factors in serum and tissue.

CBS up-regulation may produce downstream byproducts of CBS at 10 times the rate so that's a lot more ammonia being built up. 10 times more? That's not clear as there are other mutations and a split between sulfur byproducts such as ammonia and taurine . To clear ammonia requires more BH4 to recycle BH2. But supplements don't appear to be absorbed uniformly and it seems that it's a bit early to say we can fix these problems in a MATLAB simulation in a flash. In theory, yes but in practice medical researchers are in the early stage of understanding the efficiency implications of any genetic mutation, never mind combinations.

So there's a lot of intelligence and research which would go into writing the ODE's you speak of and
1) they may be a best guess approximation for what's actually happening.
2) because of reasons including (1) they'd still require functional testing to determine they were working. It'll still be iterative ...

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17775 on: 21/02/2013 19:35:34 »
Yes, Octave is pretty good as a MATLAB replacement.

In your current routine, the blueberry extract is a replacement for Ginkgo Biloba extract, right?

What's your daily dosage? any special dose before/after an O?

Thanks!

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17776 on: 21/02/2013 19:53:50 »
Yes, Octave is pretty good as a MATLAB replacement.

In your current routine, the blueberry extract is a replacement for Ginkgo Biloba extract, right?

What's your daily dosage? any special dose before/after an O?

Thanks!

Yes, that's a good point. I believe that both blueberries and ginkgo can reduce inflammation. I like ginkgo but it sometimes makes me itchy whereas blueberries or pterostilbene (there's a patented extract in some supplements) seem to reduce POIS and I haven't noticed any side effects.

*

Offline Nightingale

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 92
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17777 on: 22/02/2013 01:25:40 »
Nightingale,

I am not completely out of the woods yet.. The recipe is quite complex, so if I forget one or two ingredient, I sometimes still get some POIS symptoms, but for 12-18 hrs only, as opposed to 4-5 days before.

Your COMT, VDR and MAO A profile is almost completely opposite from mine. so I guess your are more of the over-methylation type. Maybe taking Niacin before and after an O will help to mop up extra methyl and lessen the crash?

I do think there are several sub-types of POIS. maybe there is a over-methylation type, where too much dopamine was generated. Dopamine response curve is U-shaped. too much DA does degrade cognitive and may also causes dopamine receptor to down-regulate, and causes a hang-over for 4-5 days after..

Dopamine is an especially interesting part of this for me.  I have yet to find someone else to responds this way when they have 2 O's in a close timespan, especialy under 2 hours: The second O is harder to achieve, but it's intensity is FAR greater, both in POIS symptoms AND in pleasure.  I'm sure you know dopamine surges for an O.  It's like taking a illicit drug that leaves me senseless.  I often will lie there in what feels like a semi-coma.  It can be hard to move my self, as it's like I'm half-paralyzed.  It seems similar to what sufferers of cataplexy (sleep paralysis) experience, but I'm able to move with sustained effort.  Some mornings after when I was depressed and O'd more then once a day, it would take me 15 minutes longer to get out of bed because of the paralysis state.  I wonder how much histamine was surging through my system at those times...

I'm having Phe, ammonia, Heavy metals, and maybe sulfur levels tested this weekend.  I'm especially curious about ammonia, since after eating meat lately I'm getting this wave of brainfog and loss of concentration.

I have such days of low-functioning, I can't even learn how to make the next choice in my treatment.  I would love to complete my IT degree and finish my bachelors some day soon!

EDIT: I wonder, too, if my having to take 1.5g of niacin to achieve a flush now has something to do with an excess of methyl?  My first times trying niacin didn't require nearly as much, but early on I noticed I needed about 200mg to get a real flush were most were needing 100-150mg.  It quickly climbed to where I had to buy 500mg niacin tablets.  Actually, my flush isn't very strong anymore and I'm getting less reduction in symptoms, I might bump it up to 2g soon.
« Last Edit: 22/02/2013 01:36:29 by Nightingale »

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17778 on: 22/02/2013 06:22:53 »
I'm having Phe, ammonia, Heavy metals, and maybe sulfur levels tested this weekend.  I'm especially curious about ammonia, since after eating meat lately I'm getting this wave of brainfog and loss of concentration.

EDIT: I wonder, too, if my having to take 1.5g of niacin to achieve a flush now has something to do with an excess of methyl?  My first times trying niacin didn't require nearly as much, but early on I noticed I needed about 200mg to get a real flush were most were needing 100-150mg.  It quickly climbed to where I had to buy 500mg niacin tablets.  Actually, my flush isn't very strong anymore and I'm getting less reduction in symptoms, I might bump it up to 2g soon.

I need to take back what I said on Niacin for the following reasons:
1.Assuming you are over-methylated, your histamine will be easily disposed (metabolized) any time. Since you do not  suffer from high histamine, the causes of your POIS is likely to be different from Kurtosis and me.
2.Most people who are over-methylators suffer from insomina, anxiety. Niacin helps on those problems. But you don't have insomnia/anxiety symptoms, so I suppose Niacin will not help.
3.too much Niacin (1.5g is on the very high end) adds a lot of burden on your liver.

Your dopamine response is interesting. Do you experience high frustration and aggression,  or just low-tempo brain fog?

more test results, I think, are always better. What medicine/supplement are you taking daily?

*

Offline romies

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 35
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17779 on: 22/02/2013 06:27:07 »
Yes, that's a good point. I believe that both blueberries and ginkgo can reduce inflammation. I like ginkgo but it sometimes makes me itchy whereas blueberries or pterostilbene (there's a patented extract in some supplements) seem to reduce POIS and I haven't noticed any side effects.

Yeah. ginkgo has so many different chemicals in it. variation from brand to brand can be huge. There is one brand causing diarrhea on me every single time. I will give blueberries and pterostilbene a try.

*

Offline Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 285
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17780 on: 22/02/2013 17:05:32 »
Nightingale, I wonder if your niacin might have lost some of its potency. I let mine sit in the closed bottle for a few months and needed 500mg or 600mg to get a flush instead of my usual 200mg even though I've only taken niacin maybe 7 or 8 times total.

I've wrapped the bottle in plastic now, but I haven't tried any yet to see if it lost more potency.
Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17781 on: 22/02/2013 17:26:06 »
Niacin may increase prostaglandin release which may reduce inflammation (depends which prostaglandin is released). PGE1 and Histamine levels appear correlated. PGD2 may block histamine. I read a few papers about this in the past.  We had a long discussion about this over on poiscenter. I'm not sure it's as simple as under methylation or over methylation as there are interacting genetics here.

When I saw MTHFR a1298c on my own test I thought "I need more mb12" and deciding to increase that has been a good idea so far but it's not like I carefully measured what I was taking.

As for histamine levels, well I don't know if the orthomolecular psychiatrists' description of "histadelia" isn't too simplistic but I remember Nightingale saying the descriptions he read online seemed very similar to what he was experiencing. Of course their description of high and low histamine levels are confusing as there are similarities between the 2 and without an assay of tissue histamine levels it would seem nigh on impossible for someone to figure out which category you fell into. And it's a rough theory, with several flaws. I don't think it's fair to write it off completely however as genetic testing may show increasing relevance of methylation mutations to mast cell stability. i.e. the BH4 connection.

*

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17782 on: 23/02/2013 04:46:33 »
Wanted to give everyone an update on my current status.  So this update will be in 2 parts. 
Part 1:
First off, i sent Herman the blood tests he asked for.  He pointed out that my RT3 was high and my RT3 ratio low.  He also said my potassium was low, TSH high, and adrenals were low.  I was skeptical because I fell within the range on all these items.  But I spent time researching  what he said and he was right.  My RT3 ratio of 10 indicated that I'm hypothyroid.  My low cortisol indicate that I have an adrenal problem.  My TSH of 2.5 is on the high end of what some doctors believe the range should be.  So maybe I have an adrenal and thyroid problem??  I reached out to the woman, Valerie, who runs adrenalsweb.org and sent her my labs.  She agreed that I have low adrenals and am hypothyroid and that this could completely explain my fatigue, anxiety and brainfog.  I then figured that I COULD order hydrocortisone for my adrenals and T3 for my thyroid over online sites, and self medicate myself.  But, if I truly have a thyroid and adrenal problem that shows up in my blood tests, why don't I go to an endocrinologist and be treated the right way.  For one, hydrocortisone and T3 are hormones, and once you go on them you may always need them.  So nothing I wanted to mess around with.  I knew it'd be difficult to find a good Endo, but I wanted to try.  I had my dad send my blood work to one doctor he knew, who told me i was completely fine.  My GF, a medical resident at a top school, emailed the chief endo who is world reknown.  She sent him my cortisol and my labs and this note:

------------------------
Dear Dr. XXXX, (took out the name)
Have an interesting question for you about rT3 ratios (of which I'm unfamiliar with).  In general, is there any data to support the use of the T3/rT3 ratio in diagnosing hypo/hyperthyroidism?  I've done a brief lit search and haven't found much about it.

The reason I ask is that I've come across a case of a young adult man who reports low energy, constant fatigue, and most notably the inability to think clearly that he describes as "brain fog" impairing his ability to function normally.  These symptoms occur nearly daily.  He's been to several physicians who have done an extensive evaluation that has returned, unsurprisingly, normal (I've attached his thyroid studies, etc.).  However, he has done his own online research and has asked me to investigate whether or not there is any truth to the rT3 ratio.

 He also had his cortisol measures done using a home test kit with a 9AM cortisol of 4.6 (I've attached his graph compared to their controls).

Any thoughts?  Thanks for your time. 
------------------------------------------------

He e-mailed back a very thoughtful response....
-----------------

I am not aware of any scientific data indicating that the T3/rT3 is useful clinically. rT3 increases when the deiodinases that convert T4 to T3 are decreased by starvation and illness. One can then see an increase in rT3 and a decrease in T3 during illness. As you know TSH levels are the most accurate method for determining thyroid function as long as there is not pituitary/hypothalamic abnormalities. There is information on the WEB pushing the concept that rT3 inhibits the action of T3 by binding to the thyroid hormone receptor. If you want to read some fiction you can go to the following site

http://thyroid-rt3.com/canyou.htm

There are also WEB sites devoted to "adrenal fatigue". Again there is no scientific evidence for this syndrome. If you want to read even more fiction you can go to the following WEB site

http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/

 
I try to encourage my patients to to only use well recognized sites when they are reading about diseases on the WEB. There is an enormous amount of junk out there. One of the endocrine fellows a few years ago gave a talk on the endocrine myths on the WEB.

I hope this addresses your questions. If you need more information or have additional questions let me know.
---------------------------------

While it's convenient for me to say, he doesn't know what he's talking about but Valerie the webmaster at adrenalsweb.org does -that's tough for me to buy in to.  I'm beginning to side somewhat towards these doctors in that... I bet a lot of people with similar lab readings to me are perfectly perfectly fine.  However, given my symptoms, maybe the slight abnormalities in my readings should be given more scrutiny than you would give someone who feels fine.  Based on this, is it worth the risk of trying these hormones without medical supervision?  One of my doctors may even help me try it.  But do I want to go down that path yet?  I've decided I still have other ideas to test before I do anything extreme like that.  The next idea I'm going to include in the next post...
« Last Edit: 23/02/2013 08:25:11 by B_Daniel »
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.

*

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17783 on: 23/02/2013 05:24:10 »
Part 2:

I still think there's something to Herman's mineral imbalance theory.  I've done a good amount of reading about it.  It basically stems from work that Dr. Paul Eck did many years back that mineral imbalances can lead to a wide range of problems.  The main imbalance is copper toxicity, which can cause fatigue, brainfog, and anxiety.  Herman claims that fixing his copper toxicity has cured him.  If you google copper toxicity, you can find a lot of accounts of people who claim to have gotten better from it.  There was a guy on this site this last month who claimed that he found that his pois was nothing more than pyroluria and that b6 and zinc cured him.  Zinc and B6 are copper antagonists.  So maybe there's a connection there with his success story too.

So to get a hair test, you basically find a hair mineral analysis specialist on dr. wilson's website http://drlwilson.com/do%20hair%20analysis.htm   For $125-$250 bucks (depending upon who you use), you can get your hair sample analyzed.  The main minerals tested are magnesium, calcium, potassium, and sodium.  If those are off, you know you have a copper isssue.  Directly testing copper isn't very reliable.  The practitioner I'm using isn't on dr. wilson's approved list.  her name is theresa vernon   http://www.tvernonlac.com/.  I contacted her to ask about copper toxicity and ended up having a 30min telephone call with her and feel very good about her vs the other ppl on dr. wilsons site.  theresa is more expensive ($200), but she's been practicing a long time and seems very knowledgeable.  i asked her why hair analysis, why can't she look at my blood tests.  Her response was that our bodies need our blood to be in good shape bc blood is our lifeline.  Since our bodies are very efficient, they are able to sacrifice the organs and whatnot in order to keep our blood healthy.  She says problems with the blood only show up when your body is in life threatening or extremely bad conditions.  So this is why they do the hair test instead.  So all that seemed to make a bit of sense to me so I sent my hair sample in and am starting to go down this path (haven't gotten it back yet). 

The negative:
If I'm looking for an approach that's recognized in the medical community, this is not it.  The one person who's written a book on copper toxicity, dr. ann louise gittleman, got her nutritional doctorate from some hocus pocus college.  If you search the web, there's very little info on the biochemistry behind the hair mineral analysis test and all of dr. wilson's stuff.  The only explanation for that is that if Wilson released all the info on how this stuff works, then he couldn't make money charging people for instructions on what to do.  So that REALLY annoys me and smells of a scam.   i told my GF about Theresa Vernon's quote about the body sacrificing itself to save the blood, and she laughed and laughed and laughed until she started tearing up, then she laughed some more. 

So is this complete Bullshit?  Herman seems to feel very positively about all of it.  Plus, another positive indicator is that I have been taking B6 and Zinc for the last 3 weeks, per Herman's advice, and my anxiety does seem to be improving - although brainfog hasn't improved much.  I guess more time will tell.

So that's really it.  This process of chelating and dumping copper from my system could take anywhere from 2 months to a few years, depending upon how bad my case is.  I should likely feel better though within a few months.  Still, what's so frustrating about this is that  there's not only no medical evidence surrounding this, but that I have to take this big leap of faith and I won't know for many months if it's working and I can rely upon it.  All that said, the reason I post this, is that I wanted ya'll to be aware of what I'm up to.  Over the last 2 years now, ya'll have seen me feel try different things like B vitamins, Testosterone, Wellbutrin, Sam-E, which have all helped me at least temporarily feel a bit better.  That said, I've never been on anything that has had me feeling anywhere near perfect for more than a couple days.  So IF I experience considerable improvement for a 2 week period, i'll of course let you all know. 

I don't think I've made a great case here for others to try this, but if anyone else wants to call theresa vernon and at least get their hair tested, i personally think it'd be worth a shot.  Would be nice to have more company exploring this path.  So far Nomore2013 is the only one i know doing this as well.     
« Last Edit: 23/02/2013 05:45:53 by B_Daniel »
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.

*

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17784 on: 23/02/2013 06:19:39 »
One last thing. I just want to give my Congratulations to all those who have helped with the nord efforts on pois center.   I dont share some people's extreme optimism with regards to this study, but nevertheless i think every one of us supports research and we should be very proud of this pretty major accomplishment together.
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.

*

Offline Vincent M

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 285
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17785 on: 23/02/2013 11:46:06 »
Nice update, Daniel. What dosage and form of B6 and zinc are you taking?

Taking fenugreek+tea/garlic, saw palmetto, huperzine, niacin, boswellia, and nutmeg.

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8175
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17786 on: 23/02/2013 13:30:44 »
So to get a hair test, you basically find a hair mineral analysis specialist on dr. wilson's website http://drlwilson.com/do%20hair%20analysis.htm   For $125-$250 bucks (depending upon who you use)

Quote from: Stephen Barrett, M.D.
Commercial Hair Analysis:
A Cardinal Sign of Quackery

... Hair analysis is worthless for assessing the body's nutritional status or serving as a basis for dietary or supplement recommendations. Nor should it be routinely used to screen people for heavy metal toxicity. Should you encounter a practitioner who uses hair analysis for any of these purposes, run for the nearest exit and complain to your state attorney general!
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/hair.html

BTW
 have you seen what "dr. wilson's" IP neighbours are selling ?, this one looks like re-branded holy-water ...

Quote from: Angelic Essences™
Angelic Essences™ are made from water to which energy of a high vibration and from higher dimensions is transmitted. It is like pattern of prayer and love that is interwoven with water. This essence is provided to this world through mutual work of beings of higher dimensions .
« Last Edit: 23/02/2013 20:58:55 by RD »

*

Offline onelongwar

  • First timers
  • *
  • 4
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17787 on: 23/02/2013 14:35:28 »
Hi, I posted here a while ago with my jaw problems and their relation to my POIS and wet dreams, here's an update.

What I wish I'd done a few years ago is listen to a friend who suggested that my symptoms suggested sleep apnea.  I thought that was very unlikely as I don't snore much, am thin, young etc.  It turns out that the myth about sleep apnea being mainly for fat old men has long been disproven, with all ages from young children upwards being diagnosed with Obstructive Sleep Apnea  or Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome: both sleep breathing disorders.

So now I've been diagnosed as having least one of the above, and my orthodontist(s) have done what they should have done three years ago and admitted that they can't do anything for me: I need jaw surgery in order to open my airway properly.

I've now tried CPAP (constant positive airway pressure), which gave me a couple of days of feeling amazing with lots of energy and sexuality, just like El Stonio who also reported POIS caused by sleep apnea:

--- Quote from: El Stonio on 02/08/2009 18:39:26 ---
Hello All,
It's been a while since I've been here.  In the past I've had some moderate success with going to a mostly vegan diet etc.  Buy recently I had a sleep study done and found I had sleep apnea.  Last week I started wearing a TAP, an oral appliance that prevents your tongue from closing off air to your lungs.  Guess what?  My symptoms of POIS are gone, no exaggerating.  (I've been testing, haha.  I had sex Friday and Saturday nite and this Sunday morning jogged/hiked 10 miles.)  In the past I'd be flat on my back craving carbs, feeling depressed and sick.  This may not be everybody's solution but I urge anyone who hasnt had a sleep study to DO IT!  I tried the CPAP but that was so intrusive I laughed it off.  The TAP is aggreeable with me.  Good luck everyone.  Keep searching. Your bodies if they get the right stuff, will work correctly.  I just may get to start dating again  [::)
El Stonio


--- End quote ---


This didn't last long with my body becoming increasingly intolerant of the air being pushed up my nose at night.  The great feelings went away, as did my libido, but I continued to have no wet dreams while on CPAP which was amazing.  I'm finally totally off it cos I just can't tolerate it anymore and am waiting for an appointment to see a sleep doc about trying a more sophisticated machine like Bi-PAP.

Here's one of the many links to articles about testosterone, sex and sleep apea on google.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-michael-j-breus/testosterone-sleep-sexual-health_b_981121.html

So yeah, those who suffer from CFS, insomnia, decreased libido, ED, morning headaches, morning fatigue, GERD, morning IBS/diarrhea, TMJ etc are prime candidates for OSA/UARS.

Dr Steven Park, who is one of the foremost clinicians in this area, goes into some depth on the issue here.

http://doctorstevenpark.com/tired-of-being-tired-%E2%80%94-the-upper-airway-resistance-syndrome

One

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17788 on: 23/02/2013 16:44:37 »
My sleep study showed I was generating a lot of mucus but I couldn't tolerate the CPAP machine.
N-Acetyl Cysteine is a mucolytic and is a precursor for glutathione. Glutathione is an anti-oxidant, a tripeptide and is used in a number of detox reactions in the body. It's useful stuff! Alpha Lipoic Acid can help recycle glutathione. Its synthesis from cysteine uses ATP (basically, that's cellular energy) and the reduction (adding an electron) of oxidised glutathione uses NADPH. (All these things are connected of course).

I've found that a modest amount of supplementary N-Acetyl Cysteine is helpful at helping me breath more easily and is less expensive and hassle than the CPAP machine.
It appears to increase the effectiveness of b vitamins and gives me more energy. The wikipedia article on it is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcysteine

*

Offline acronym

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 154
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17789 on: 24/02/2013 04:45:13 »
Yes, that's a good point. I believe that both blueberries and ginkgo can reduce inflammation. I like ginkgo but it sometimes makes me itchy whereas blueberries or pterostilbene (there's a patented extract in some supplements) seem to reduce POIS and I haven't noticed any side effects.
Kurtosis, both blueberries and ginkgo have been good for me. I find blueberries are not as good for me as they used to be when I was younger though...even the organic ones. Ginko is expensive these days (I buy it in liquid tonic form).
The only other food that stands out as a tonic food for me in regards to pois is liver. I take lambs liver not beef or chicken. Have you eaten lambs fry much before?

*

Offline acronym

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 154
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17790 on: 24/02/2013 04:59:59 »
Kurtosis I have not had any gene testing done yet, and I have been trying to 2nd guess things on the Methylation cycle with different supplements and its not easy. I feel worse on many things.
If you get time maybe you can do this test...
http://personalitycafe.com/personality-test-resources/7688-how-chemically-balanced-your-brain.html
I am GABA dominant but I am high deficient in dopamine and acetylchloline (how much I abstained from having Os would influence my answers on this test for sure from past experience). When I first got pois, I would doubt I was GABA dominant because I had strong motivation and so stressed and anxious most of the time.

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17791 on: 24/02/2013 09:55:52 »
Hi Aconym,
OK, interesting test. I'm dopamine dominant but have signs of deficiency in acetylcholine and some deficiency in GABA. However, when "POIS" is worst I'd feel symptoms of dopamine deficiency as defined by the test. Perhaps that's why POIS has been so obvious cognitively to me. Its effect is in direct opposition to how I am "out of POIS".
However, I'm not sure any of us are ever truly out of POIS.

I've also found that eating liver is good and increases energy.  Do you know that liver was used as the original treatment for pernicious anemia. The wikipedia entry describes how George Whipple identified the illness and attempted to treat it with raw liver.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernicious_anemia

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17792 on: 24/02/2013 09:56:32 »
And NO this is not an encouragement for anybody to eat raw liver (before someone suggests it :))

*

Offline nathan123

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 106
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17793 on: 24/02/2013 16:23:21 »
Hi, 

Good news to everyone,  after continuous failure in my attempt,  i finally find the cause for my POIS.  It is excess amount of Estrogen in the body.  Average range of Estrogen in male is 10 to 40 pg/ml whereas my findings is 54.44 leading to excess estrogen in the body.  Further I have low testerstone levels (not deficient).  This abonormal hormone levels in the body causes POIS for me.  Now the next target is to balance between the same i.e. reduce the estrogen and increase the testertone. 

Further, Demo is cured by taking TRT that means high Testertone low estrogen.  this theory also works out here. 


*

Offline meteo74

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 47
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17794 on: 24/02/2013 20:35:59 »
I hope it does work...
we are waiting you for more
thank you nathan

*

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17795 on: 24/02/2013 20:37:58 »
I hope it works too.  The unfortunate question which I propose is whether your Low T/ High E is the cause or pois or another one of its nasty symptoms.  I took T and it helped me for a very short period of time, then stopped helping.  Perhaps the T/E plays more of a primary role in your pois so it certainly could work.  Keep us posted
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.

*

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17796 on: 24/02/2013 20:45:45 »
Nice update, Daniel. What dosage and form of B6 and zinc are you taking?

50mg of zinc and an active b50 complex - both 3x a day.  As evidenced by Demo's Testosterone helping him but not others, niacin helping some but not all, Kurtosis' methylation helping some but not others - i think there are multiple cases of pois - and i don't advise anyone do the zinc and B6 thing without working with herman.  That quackwatch article that Neilep posted provided pretty convincing evidence against hair testing and what I'm doing.  maybe ya'll are better off waiting a couple months and getting a more definitive account from me before going down this path.
« Last Edit: 25/02/2013 15:25:07 by B_Daniel »
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8175
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17797 on: 24/02/2013 21:09:06 »
That quackwatch article that Neilep posted provided pretty convincing evidence against hair testing ...

Not Neilep, just "Neilep level Member" ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg405684#msg405684

*

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17798 on: 24/02/2013 22:04:39 »
Quote
Kurtosis' methylation helping some hurting others
Who did it hurt?

*

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17799 on: 25/02/2013 01:06:00 »
Quote
Kurtosis' methylation helping some hurting others
Who did it hurt?


My thought was just that some people are over-methylators. Ive edited my original statement bc youre right, didnt/ wouldnt hurt anyone.   and it helped me, thats for sure. Just trying to make the point that we're not all the same
« Last Edit: 25/02/2013 15:36:42 by B_Daniel »
2-5 days, 80% cognitive, tongue-tied, brain fog, lose track of thoughts mid conversation, anxiety, dry eyes, irritable, fatigue.  Believer of both auto-immune AND regeneration theories.  My sessions are much shorter when I've gone 2 wks without.