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So Steve,By not doing it in 18 1/2 years- are you cured? Or for you does it apply even to intercourse?
Demo--Glad you're feeling improvement with testosterone patches. I hope that they prove to be effective/beneficial when the "time" comes. This is an important experiment. I've always wondered (like everybody else probably) whether testosterone was a critical hormone in POIS. After all, it is produced front and center so to speak. My last test at M.D. came back okay. Regarding posting problems this morning, YES, I had a problem. That why I had two very similar postings showing up at same time. Screen indicated that my message wasn't accepted, but it actually was. It was a bit confusing. OH Well! Back to Testosterone: "Theoretically", is addressing a deficiency possibly enough in itself, or might it also balance out prolactin somehow ?
My last [testosterone] test at M.D. came back okay.
I have found that exercise is a temporary improvement for POIS. I've been long distance runner/swimmer for 32 yrs. Exercise = Endorphins. For me, staying away from alcohol and caffeine has helped with both conditions. Supplements: I've taken supplements for over 30 years. Vitamin C is my constant forever. I take a B complex, D, fish oil, garlic, magnesium and potassium, also some calcium.For me, this forum is therapeutic and cathartic. I actually feel better as a result of constructive, positive dialogue. Since I feel better as a result, it strengthens my immune and nervous systems. It reinforces healing. It seeps into the subconscious. It actually becomes a tool.
But I absolutely know that there is a "rock solid case" for a concommitant psychological and behavioural genesis, if not actual cause. Thus, I try to work on all aspects of POIS to diminish it: exercise, sleep, nutrition, my mind, my back, supplements, psychiatrist, chiropractor , you know all the stuff we talk about all the time. For me, I prefer natural methods.
Girlwind--Deep in my gut I suspect a broad holistic approach may bethe most valuable to me.
Steve--Very interesting news--It's positive news--I have been very curious about the "escape" experiences people have talked about--Because if you can escape once ,twice, thrice............?
Steve-- ...but the last 20 months I have been basically abstinentPois was "tolerable" and had a defined 2-3 day dissipation pattern. Then in early/middle 2007 things fell apart. Imprudent behavioral choices with their psychological consequences ignited POIS. Now 20 months later, I've rid all imprudent behaviour, reduced POIS "episodes". Can I return to 2004/5 condition? I don't have a clue, but I'm optimistic.
I am in NC and none of the doctors I have seen to know or are willing to answer anything about it.
Pro, i really love your description of "unawakened" state, dissociation. I feel the same thing. You find the good expression. It's the more difficult symptom to explain to my doc.I used the words : - mental confusion- stupor- derealisation- "i feel like sleeping" / dreamlike state- loss of vigilance and loss of consciousness At the moment, my best theory to try to explain this is the unbalanced ratio DHEA/cortisol. Saving cortisol release might be a key factor (avoiding all physical , psychological stressors as diet or light) and for flulike cases at least , inflammation.
None of the physicians I have approached are able to diagnose the problem.
I have a delay post "O" of about 1 to 6 hours before this awful condition begins.
Steve--I understand your symptomatologic chart: 1-5 with % of loss.For me it can be understood as behaviours that trigger an anxiety/panic episode. In my experience it would reflect an hyperexcitatory state. This is why I have posted a lot about my GAD and my POIS. I cannot disentangle them.You know, sometimes I feel we're in a maze or house of mirrors never finding the exit, always running into reflections of ourselves. I submit to you there is an exit. I don't know quite where yet, but I'm optimistically looking.
Total % loss...For me1) openness to dating 2% loss2) dating 5% loss3) arousal behavior 10% loss4) genital contact 20%loss5) orgasmic sexuality 95% lossAfter a two day experiment at stage 2), for us, dating, my partner and I went back to stage 4), for us, non orgasmic genital contact.I'm feeling fatigued, confused, flushed, tired, runny nose, arthritic in my knees and lower back.I'm negotiating with my partner to do a three day experiment at stage 2, for us, after the long weekend and before a three day trip we have next week.
Day two of three of 'no arousal behavior', as negotiated with my partner. Life is returning to me. I am grateful...
Day three of no arousal behaviors. I'm more available to other people, practicing a little, administrating my life more. I notice my meditation is up and I've lost 6 pounds. Nothing earthshaking. The Red Sea didn't part. I haven't been conversing with burning bushes...but I feel more solid internally.
Quote from: SteveD on 20/01/2009 07:49:31Day two of three of 'no arousal behavior', as negotiated with my partner. Life is returning to me. I am grateful... Quote from: SteveD on 20/01/2009 18:25:00Day three of no arousal behaviors. I'm more available to other people, practicing a little, administrating my life more. I notice my meditation is up and I've lost 6 pounds. Nothing earthshaking. The Red Sea didn't part. I haven't been conversing with burning bushes...but I feel more solid internally.More "romantic" blogging. Please familiarize yourself with the 2,500+ posts for the last 2 years to get a firsthand understanding of the nature of this forum.This is a 2nd warning.
QuoteB_Jim, can you explain the DHEA/cortisol relationship just a little more?Did you get the idea from the partial successes of Relora and Fenugreek?1/ Yes. I gave a scientific theory p33 : QuoteA recent study measuring the levels of DHEA-s and cortisol, in connection with dissociative symptoms occurred during a stress shows that people with a higher DHEA-s/cortisol have fewer symptoms of dissociation and better overall performance.2/ In a lot of psychiatric disorders, the dhea/cortisol ratio is not stable. More severe than brainfog, the derealization is a dissociative state linked to this ratio.It seems there is a double regulation between cortisol and Dhea. - Dhea and cortisol are antagonists (high cortisol is opposed to low Dhea)- Dhea may be converted to cortisol if needed. (high stress) Example : panic attacks ( "A hypothetical explanation of Panic disorder" , German journal of psychiatry , 2001) QuotePanic attacks may be due to very low DHEA levels to relative to cortisol level possibly resulting from conversion of dhea to cortisol.Panic/Fears = excessive stress = excessive release of cortisol = body can't answer and converts Dhea to cortisol = dissociative state 3/ Possible explanation for Pois :We know that cortisol is release with stress and with inflammation too (cortisol is the anti-inflammatory hormone of body.)After orgasm the Pois sufferers with flu-like symptoms (dr Waldinger's Pois form) may have an allergic reaction and inflammation (Il-6). Body may answer with cortisol release and may cause an unstable cortisol/Dhea ratio. I suppose the ratio is stronger with Relora (cortisol is not "wasted" all the time, DHEA 227% increased (?) is available if needed).
B_Jim, can you explain the DHEA/cortisol relationship just a little more?Did you get the idea from the partial successes of Relora and Fenugreek?
A recent study measuring the levels of DHEA-s and cortisol, in connection with dissociative symptoms occurred during a stress shows that people with a higher DHEA-s/cortisol have fewer symptoms of dissociation and better overall performance.
Panic attacks may be due to very low DHEA levels to relative to cortisol level possibly resulting from conversion of dhea to cortisol.
Have a look at this New York Times article:Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html
Quote from: SteveD on 17/01/2009 22:08:16 Total % loss...For me1) openness to dating 2% loss2) dating 5% loss3) arousal behavior 10% loss4) genital contact 20%loss5) orgasmic sexuality 95% lossAfter a two day experiment at stage 2), for us, dating, my partner and I went back to stage 4), for us, non orgasmic genital contact.I'm feeling fatigued, confused, flushed, tired, runny nose, arthritic in my knees and lower back.I'm negotiating with my partner to do a three day experiment at stage 2, for us, after the long weekend and before a three day trip we have next week.Steve, please stay on topic. This is a medical forum on postorgasmic difficulties. "1) 2% loss - openness to dating 2) 5% loss - dating and the like is not serious or scientific discussion of post orgasm. This is not a blogsite as you call it. Repeated posts to this effect will be grounds for dismissal. Thank you.
I don't think it's irrelevant to the forum to discuss the arousal behavior issue and its impact on POIS.
Currently I am not experiencing any symptoms of POIS , simply, because I am not being orgasmic.
Demo, I'm glad to hear the testosterone is providing relief for you!
Very interesting article, just imagine if it mentioned us in passing, it would have been a wide net...maybe next time. 
I'm still chaste, and wishing I was from the beginning. I have grown more convinced that sex outside of emotional attraction is naturally detrimental to a person's well being.
Quote from: SteveD on 20/01/2009 18:51:42Currently I am not experiencing any symptoms of POIS , simply, because I am not being orgasmic.Thanks Steve. Tangential discussions are encouraged, but the main purpose of this specific thread, as I understand it, is to share critical information which will help us overcome this illness. With this in mind, it is best to be precise and succinct, when possible. Too much peripheral discussion hijacks the thread, and makes it hard for newcomers to sort through all of this information, and find the posts that will be most helpful to them. If you feel the need to continually express the specifics of how this problem affects your romantic life on a day to day basis, (e.g. whether or not you are 2% more open to dating at a given time, e.g. whether or not the atmosphere in a 5 star restaurant made you aroused, etc.), I encourage you to continue this dialogue privately with those who have expressed interest.
Quote from: reuniting on 20/01/2009 21:53:52Have a look at this New York Times article:Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.htmlThis is an excellent article, Reuniting. Finally, there is a legit article that sees this problem as a physiological/chemical malfunction. It says his patients improved with SSRIs, but I have to say, the SSRI my neurologist gave me did nothing but reap hell upon me, and I had to get stop taking it after a week of tourture. Has anyone else here tried an SSRI and found it improved symptoms? If so, it would be evidence that serotonin is also part of the problem, and it would be something I would stress on my next visit to the doc. Glad to hear the testosterone is helping Demo
Underwater,I just looked at my lab report, and it shows in the testosterone area:- Testosterone, Bioavailable- Testosterone, Total- (SHGB) Sex Hormone Globulin Binding- Testosterone, Free
DMAEzoloftRight now, I am thinking that high doses of spirulina, vit b, and lecithin are saving my ass.I just started DMAE... has this been discussed here before?By the way, for me zoloft (ssri) has worked... but just like everything else, after awhile- I can't tell if it is working anymore or not.
John, I wish I saw the difference in my life. Some of my absolute worst, most devastating POIS episodes have come from NE's, in some cases just "harmlesss" physical releases with no "lust" attached to it! My only escape from the horror of NE was aging. Married for over 30 years, I have observed that sex with "emotional attraction" was equally POIS-devastating, compared to NE's and/or "unchaste behavior". I must admit to the latter to maintain credibility ps - John, thank you for not being angry with me over our apparent disagreements on some issues
...differing opinions are desirable in a forum. I sense that perhaps you are cautious of my pro-chastity/ anti-lust tack, as you know it is founded in my faith, which you reject. Am I right?
"how tired am I going to be, if I go through to the orgasm?" Though that is something I have now trained myself (quite successfully) to avoid.