Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3450 on: 13/02/2009 01:14:55 »

My current POIS theories

1) I think there may be something wrong with our pituitary glands or adrenal glands. 

2) The alternative (which I think is possibly more likely), is that we have a tumor (somewhere -- possibly pituitary or adrenal), which is being either chemically or physically stimulated by orgasm/ejaculation. 


I was shocked with the pituitary revelations of my bloodwork and Brain MRI, as you cited.

But my 75%+ cure (4th "O" in 4 days yesterday with only mild and quickly disappearing symptoms) also may point to Rob's depletion/replenishment theory (testosterone = efficient sperm replacement) and nitric oxide from Levitra stimulating oxytocin depletion.

Counterpoints, is the above compatible with your pituitary/adrenal theory or completely different?
I think testosterone is able to regulate the hypophysis.

Also I can remember the following : a long time ago my pois was decreased for a time (It could be for a lot of reasons) and I was feeling exactly the same thing you feel, like if sperm was rebuilded very quickly after an orgasm. I even had one semen loss at this time, during the day, without arousal, 4 days after an orgasm. This happened only one time. At the same time, I suddenly started to have more pilosity in a few months. The only thing that was not improved was endurance, even if physical strength (muscular tonus) was better. My ability to feel good after breathing exercises was also improved, this makes me think about what Underwater was saying about oxygenation.

Counterpoints, what about ACTH which is secreted by hypophysis to stimulate adrenals ? I think you were tested for this. Thanks for your suggestion for the 24h urine test for cortisol. Do you think it's enough, at first, to do the blood test ? It should show at least a tendency.
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 04:07:28 by martin88 »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3451 on: 13/02/2009 03:31:29 »
Martin, maybe there is something after all to the Taoists who claim semen retention = strength (among other things).

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3452 on: 13/02/2009 06:09:46 »

My current POIS theories

1) I think there may be something wrong with our pituitary glands or adrenal glands. 

2) The alternative (which I think is possibly more likely), is that we have a tumor (somewhere -- possibly pituitary or adrenal), which is being either chemically or physically stimulated by orgasm/ejaculation. 


I was shocked with the pituitary revelations of my bloodwork and Brain MRI, as you cited.

But my 75%+ cure (4th "O" in 4 days yesterday with only mild and quickly disappearing symptoms) also may point to Rob's depletion/replenishment theory ( [1] testosterone = efficient sperm replacement and [2] nitric oxide from Levitra, re-stimulating oxytocin, which has been depleted).

Counterpoints, is the above compatible with your pituitary/adrenal theory or completely different?

People with high cortisol problems often have low testosterone.  (As can people with pituitary problems, I think).  So yes, it fits in.  I actually have quite a high (but healthy) level of testosterone though. 
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 06:34:27 by Counterpoints »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3453 on: 13/02/2009 06:22:52 »

Counterpoints, what about ACTH which is secreted by hypophysis to stimulate adrenals ? I think you were tested for this. Thanks for your suggestion for the 24h urine test for cortisol. Do you think it's enough, at first, to do the blood test ? It should show at least a tendency.

As far as I understand, the hypothalamus releases CRH, which stimulates the anterior pituitary (Adenohypophysis) to release ACTH, which stimulates the adrenal glands to produce cortisol. 

My ACTH actually tested somewhat normal.  (14 pmol/L, ref: <15 pmol/L.  This goes with the 740 nmol/L reading).  As far as AM cortisol blood test vs. 24 hr urine... not sure.  The reference for an AM blood test is 150-690 nmol/L.  I have tested AM cortisol 3 times.  (560, 590, 740 nmol/L).  So two of these three times were "in reference"... but for my age, quite high, I think.  Nonetheless, I think they would have been disregarded by 90% of physicians -- even though it is very common amongst people with cushings and other cortisol problems to only test high-normal on the blood samples.

On the other hand, my 24 hr urine cortisol 515 nmol/d (ref: 30-220 nmol/d) is an obvious indicator of a problem.  What first caused me to worry about cortisol was a PM cortisol blood test I had (430 nmol/L, ref: 50-300 nmol/L). 

So, in short, I'm not sure.  I think if you get an AM blood test, and the result is < 300 nmol/L, a 24 hr urine test probably won't show anything.  It seems what's happening with me, is that cortisol is getting high during the night, when for most people it would be at its lowest.

(To those who don't know what a 24 hr urine test is, it's not a big deal.  You go to a lab, they give you a container.  You wake up the next morning.  You disregard your first "sample", and write down the time.  You continue to "collect" until 24 hours after the time you wrote down.  The container should be in the fridge when it is not being used for collection.  After the 24 hours, you give the container to the lab). 

I would like to note that my cortisol has been highest when I am symptomatic.  There seems to be a clear correlation between symptoms and cortisol levels.
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 06:24:56 by Counterpoints »

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Offline Finally

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3454 on: 13/02/2009 15:28:27 »
Some have had positive results from taking Levitra.  Levitra is a PDE5 inhibitor.  PDE5 is released  "at orgasm".  In men it resuts in the inability to get an erection right after ejaculation-the refractory period.
There are subforms of PDE5 some of which only effect the Corpus Cavernos um(Sp) of the Penis while others can effect blood vessels of the Brain, other smooth muscle tissues and the liver and heart.  The lack of blood flow through capillaries to the brain will result in dizziness, brain fog and mental fatigue.
The Wikipedia listing of pde5 and Pde5 inhibitors has some interesting links.
Other than Cialis, PDE5 inhibitors are are deactivated by food particularly fats.  That may explain why sometimes they seem to have a less effect after a while.           

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3455 on: 13/02/2009 16:28:43 »
I doubt weight could hav anything to do with these. I am considered obsese,but i exericese a moderated amount. is there anybody who is pretty fit and still has these problem.

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3456 on: 13/02/2009 16:29:40 »
How long those it take for blood test to get done, i have not seen any results since two weeks i went to doctor.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3457 on: 13/02/2009 17:00:56 »

Some have had positive results from taking Levitra.  Levitra is a PDE5 inhibitor.  PDE5 is released  "at orgasm".  In men it resuts in the inability to get an erection right after ejaculation-the refractory period.
There are subforms of PDE5 some of which only effect the Corpus Cavernos um(Sp) of the Penis while others can effect blood vessels of the Brain, other smooth muscle tissues and the liver and heart.  The lack of blood flow through capillaries to the brain will result in dizziness, brain fog and mental fatigue.
The Wikipedia listing of pde5 and Pde5 inhibitors has some interesting links.
Other than Cialis, PDE5 inhibitors are are deactivated by food particularly fats.  That may explain why sometimes they seem to have a less effect after a while.           


Thanks, Finally! That explains a lot of what I have been thinking about.

Maybe it also explains why Cialis - which didn't work at all - was such a disaster for my POIS. It certainly appears to work differently than Levitra.

This forum is great: free consultation!!! [:)]
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 17:22:18 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3458 on: 13/02/2009 17:05:29 »

The only big step I've made is the result of my 24 hr urine cortisol test.


Counterpoints, I'm taking a cortisol AM blood test. Not comprehensive I know, but it's a start. If nothing else, it may contribute to our forum databases.

I'll post results here in about 27 days from now. Plus re-exams of prolactin, testosterone, etc.

I'm still pinching myself to see if I'm truly awake with this new treatment!
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 17:10:06 by demografx »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3459 on: 13/02/2009 18:18:22 »
I doubt weight could hav anything to do with these. I am considered obsese,but i exericese a moderated amount. is there anybody who is pretty fit and still has these problem.

YES, this is an important observation.  People with Cushings, and cortisol problems, have trouble losing weight, despite good efforts to lose it (exercise and diet). 

When did you start gaining weight?  Are you still gaining weight, or is your weight stable?  Is fat disproportionately in face, collar bone, and stomach areas?  Do you have thin skin anywhere?  Do you have insomnia?  Do you have stretch marks? Do you bruise easily?  All important questions when trying to figure out whether cortisol could be part of the issue.

I am not obese. (My total height/weight ratio is pretty good).  I would probably be considered fit.  But I do show some of these signs. 
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 19:01:24 by Counterpoints »

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3460 on: 13/02/2009 18:19:45 »

The only big step I've made is the result of my 24 hr urine cortisol test.


Counterpoints, I'm taking a cortisol AM blood test. Not comprehensive I know, but it's a start. If nothing else, it may contribute to our forum databases.

I'll post results here in about 27 days from now. Plus re-exams of prolactin, testosterone, etc.

I'm still pinching myself to see if I'm truly awake with this new treatment!


Good luck!  If possible, I would take the test when you are symptomatic.  And an AM Cortisol test is certainly useful.
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 19:00:20 by Counterpoints »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3461 on: 13/02/2009 21:14:07 »

I would take the test when you are symptomatic.


I'm blessed: symptoms have been reduced from 4 days' harshness to just hours of mild symptoms!

Not bragging, CP, I just want to offer hope to others to show it's achievable. So don't give up, everyone!!!

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3462 on: 13/02/2009 21:20:21 »

How long those it take for blood test to get done, i have not seen any results since two weeks i went to doctor.


CC, my reply post disappeared!

It shouldn't take more than 3 days. Call and blame your friend (me) that he says it shouldn't take that long.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3463 on: 13/02/2009 21:26:32 »



          Maybe it's our lucky day anyway!

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3464 on: 14/02/2009 00:35:30 »
Which blood tests CCconfucius?

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3465 on: 14/02/2009 01:40:12 »
I doubt weight could hav anything to do with these. I am considered obsese,but i exericese a moderated amount. is there anybody who is pretty fit and still has these problem.

YES, this is an important observation.  People with Cushings, and cortisol problems, have trouble losing weight, despite good efforts to lose it (exercise and diet). 

When did you start gaining weight?  Are you still gaining weight, or is your weight stable?  Is fat disproportionately in face, collar bone, and stomach areas?  Do you have thin skin anywhere?  Do you have insomnia?  Do you have stretch marks? Do you bruise easily?  All important questions when trying to figure out whether cortisol could be part of the issue.

I am not obese. (My total height/weight ratio is pretty good).  I would probably be considered fit.  But I do show some of these signs. 


I have lost weight before but that was before i notice pois.
I gained weight when i go to college when I got busy. and didnt stop my usual way of eating.
I used to  only have insomia during pois. I dont notice insomia anymore even during pois.
I dont bruise eaisly.
I have strecth marks, but isnt that normal when you are big. I only weigh like 207 nothing like 300


I read on the internet that obese men had less testorone than fit men.

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3466 on: 14/02/2009 01:44:14 »

How long those it take for blood test to get done, i have not seen any results since two weeks i went to doctor.


CC, my reply post disappeared!

It shouldn't take more than 3 days. Call and blame your friend (me) that he says it shouldn't take that long.

I already started calling them, my family doctor took a month to tell me my overall blood test result.

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Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3467 on: 14/02/2009 01:46:14 »
Which blood tests CCconfucius?
for total testertorne and free T( thanks to the forum i made sure he didnt forget that) and prolactin. This is the urologist

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3468 on: 14/02/2009 02:50:17 »

my family doctor took a month to tell me my overall blood test result.


That doesn't sound good at all, a month. Sorry to hear. Guess they need to be pushed.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3469 on: 14/02/2009 03:11:05 »
I already started calling them, my family doctor took a month to tell me my overall blood test result.

You should be able to get the lab to send you a copy of your results.  For tests like prolactin and testosterone, results will often be available the very next day.

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Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3470 on: 14/02/2009 03:21:20 »
Since I have had so much time recently between "O"s, I have been trying to address imbalances that I believe are possibly  connected to POIS. From these experiments, I hope to get some clue as to how to deal more comprehensively with POIS. For example, my POIS is worst during sleep at nighttime. I don't know why this is. Perhaps there are natural changes in cortisol during sleep. Since I don't generally sleep well, I'm using this as an opportunity to experiment. I haven't slept well two nights in a row for 21 months (during POIS or without). So I make the leap in logic that maybe if I can sleep well for extended periods of time, the therapy I have utilized might be of some help in addressing POIS.

I have kept records of my sleep now for over 50 days. It has been just the last week that I have finally slept well on two consecutive nights. For me, this is a relief.
I also feel calmer now during the day. I don't know how I am affecting any hormones or neurotransmitters, but I am affecting something. I won't know until I have an "O" if I have affected POIS. I credit my improvement to a large Vitamin B complex with a particular active derivitive of Vitamin B9, Methylfolate. It regulates the synthesis of norepinephrine, dopamine and serotonin.  For the last two weeks I have also be experimenting with amino acids; in particular L theanine and 5htp. But I open up the capsules and take very little powder, very little. About a week ago, goingcrazy mentioned phenylalanine. I also added dl phenylalanine to my amino acid mix. Just in case a possible autoinflammatory condition exists, I added fish oil therapy. I take about 4-3 capsules of fish oil daily. I hope this success continues. Since I generally don't post specific experiments I make, perhaps this may lead to something. I don't like to talk about short successes, because I don't want to jinx myself.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3471 on: 14/02/2009 12:35:30 »
Really good to see this thread thriving so well. Who would have thought it would be so many pages in length ? 

Big respect goes to you all for creating this support network. A special mention must go to Demografx who has put in so much work to keeping this thread alive and well. He is the  backbone.

Well done to ALL of you for your reciprocal support for oneanother !


Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3472 on: 14/02/2009 14:54:57 »
Martin, maybe there is something after all to the Taoists who claim semen retention = strength (among other things).
Difficult to have a proof of this, but it sounds very true. Sometimes I'm starting to lose hope I'll know one day, even with all the progress we have made, there is still no real study on us to explain where is the problem.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3473 on: 14/02/2009 20:10:22 »



HEY EVERYBODY, I HATE THIS EXPRESSION BUT CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER ONE RIGHT NOW: SO.....LET'S KILL 2 BIRDS WITH ONE STONE!

(1) IT'S NEIL aka NEILEP'S BIRTHDAY TODAY!! - NEIL/NEILEP IS OUR FORUM THREAD'S VERY GOOD  FRIEND FROM NAKED SCIENCE FORUM. 

(2) AND IN JUST A FEW DAYS, FEBRUARY 18, 2009, IT'S OUR SECOND (2ND) ANNIVERSARY/BIRTHDAY OF THE  P O I S  THREAD OF THE NAKED SCIENCE FORUM!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE HERE, POSTERS AND LURKERS ALIKE - WE HAVE ACCOMPLISHED A BREATHTAKINGLY RAPID REVOLUTION IN THE SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING AND TREATMENT OF 
P O I S!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best wishes to all,
Demo


« Last Edit: 14/02/2009 21:47:20 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3474 on: 14/02/2009 20:35:48 »
Really good to see this thread thriving so well. Who would have thought it would be so many pages in length ? 

Big respect goes to you all for creating this support network. A special mention must go to Demografx who has put in so much work to keeping this thread alive and well. He is the  backbone.

Well done to ALL of you for your reciprocal support for oneanother !




Many thanks, Neil, and thank you so much for being the most incredibly supportive friend one could ever hope for! Happy Birthday!!

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3475 on: 14/02/2009 20:40:54 »

Counterpoints, what about ACTH which is secreted by hypophysis to stimulate adrenals ? I think you were tested for this. Thanks for your suggestion for the 24h urine test for cortisol. Do you think it's enough, at first, to do the blood test ? It should show at least a tendency.

As far as I understand, the hypothalamus releases CRH, which stimulates the anterior pituitary (Adenohypophysis) to release ACTH, which stimulates the adrenal glands to produce cortisol. 

My ACTH actually tested somewhat normal.  (14 pmol/L, ref: <15 pmol/L.  This goes with the 740 nmol/L reading).  As far as AM cortisol blood test vs. 24 hr urine... not sure.  The reference for an AM blood test is 150-690 nmol/L.  I have tested AM cortisol 3 times.  (560, 590, 740 nmol/L).  So two of these three times were "in reference"... but for my age, quite high, I think.  Nonetheless, I think they would have been disregarded by 90% of physicians -- even though it is very common amongst people with cushings and other cortisol problems to only test high-normal on the blood samples.

On the other hand, my 24 hr urine cortisol 515 nmol/d (ref: 30-220 nmol/d) is an obvious indicator of a problem.  What first caused me to worry about cortisol was a PM cortisol blood test I had (430 nmol/L, ref: 50-300 nmol/L). 

So, in short, I'm not sure.  I think if you get an AM blood test, and the result is < 300 nmol/L, a 24 hr urine test probably won't show anything.  It seems what's happening with me, is that cortisol is getting high during the night, when for most people it would be at its lowest.

(To those who don't know what a 24 hr urine test is, it's not a big deal.  You go to a lab, they give you a container.  You wake up the next morning.  You disregard your first "sample", and write down the time.  You continue to "collect" until 24 hours after the time you wrote down.  The container should be in the fridge when it is not being used for collection.  After the 24 hours, you give the container to the lab). 

I would like to note that my cortisol has been highest when I am symptomatic.  There seems to be a clear correlation between symptoms and cortisol levels.

For ACTH it's not clear for me how it works. Cortisol should decrease ACTH. Also there are probably pulsatile secretions and variations during the day so it's complex. I was talking about ACTH to check if pituitary is involved in high cortisol.

About the tests for cortisol, I see that the 24h urine test is the most out of the range, perhaps this can explain why your doctor looked at this one. As you said, if it's in the range but near the limit we should investigate more. Again, many thanks for reporting all this.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3476 on: 14/02/2009 21:17:29 »
In regards to spit tests... these are possibly the best tests for cortisol problems. (In fact, an endocrinologist re-iterated this, after I had heard about it elsewhere). It's just important that you get a test which will be recognized by physicians.  So be careful about the labs you choose, etc., if you want a physician to follow-up on the results.

QUOTE from http://www.csrf.net/page/diagnostic_testing_for_cushings_syndrome.php
Quote
Cortisol between 11:00 p.m. and midnight appears to be the earliest detectable abnormality in patients with this disorder. Cortisol secretion is usually very low at this time of the day, but in patients with Cushing's syndrome, the value is virtually always elevated. Although this is a relatively new test, it is currently the most widely studied single test for the diagnosis of Cushing's syndrome with at least eight independent studies from all over the world demonstrating sensitivity of 93-100% for the diagnosis of Cushing's syndrome. In the United States, there is only one FDA-approved assay for the measurement of salivary cortisol in the diagnosis of Cushing's syndrome. Collection of saliva requires special sampling tubes; however, this is a very easy test for patients to perform and can be done on multiple occasions. Salivary cortisol is very stable at room temperature and the samples can actually be mailed to a reference laboratory. Normal levels of late-night salivary cortisol virtually exclude the diagnosis of Cushing's syndrome.

FDA cleared salviary tests can be obtained at: ACL Labs: 800-877-7016 Labrix Clinical: 503-656-9596
Salivary cortisol can also be obtained from Esoterix or Quest Diagnostics (analysis done by Esoterix). Normal values are different for Esoterix labs compared to ACL. Salimetrics (http://www.salimetrics.com/) provides test kits for clinical laboratories.
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 00:42:30 by Counterpoints »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3477 on: 14/02/2009 21:29:42 »

...my POIS is worst during sleep at nighttime. I don't know why this is. Perhaps there are natural changes in cortisol during sleep.


Underwater, my early-stage POIS sleep was dreadful. Even if I rested/slept for 12+ hours, upon wakening it would feel like a ton of bricks landed on me. Exhausted and nonrefreshing sleep.


Since I don't generally sleep well, I'm using this as an opportunity to experiment. I haven't slept well two nights in a row for 21 months (during POIS or without).


My brother used to suffer from sleepless international jet lag until he met a French pilot who used Donormyl, an OTC non-narcotic from France, available online. My brother used it successfully for the past 25 years - in effervescent form, which he said works better than the pill. Now his wife uses it successfully.

This is NOT a medical endorsement; please google it for pros and cons.


I don't like to talk about short successes, because I don't want to jinx myself.


I'm the same way, so it was hard for me to post about my 75% cure. But I have several years' history and I wanted to get the word out ASAP.
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 23:46:16 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3478 on: 14/02/2009 21:41:48 »

Sometimes I'm starting to lose hope I'll know one day, even with all the progress we have made, there is still no real study on us to explain where is the problem.


Martin, I can't tell you how many times I lost hope for more than 30 years! But every time that I determined not to give up hope, some new, small but meaningful revelation ALWAYS came up and reminded me that all is not lost.

With my current re-experiencing of my POIS cure, it seems absolutely miraculous: I never dreamed I could feel like this. It seemed absolutely impossible. And it might have never happened without this forum. Just the existence of the forum gives me hope for everyone.
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 04:22:10 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3479 on: 15/02/2009 04:20:23 »
TESTOSTERONE UPDATE

3 weeks into T-patches, had an allergic reaction tonight, since early AM. Itching, hives. Paged the doctor on call, she said to remove the patches, take Benadryl/Tylenol, keep them off till Tuesday. But the T stays in the system for a week. Might have to switch to gel.

3 steps forward, 2 steps back. Oh well, still ahead!  [:)]
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 23:51:23 by demografx »

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3480 on: 15/02/2009 05:24:30 »
Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3481 on: 15/02/2009 05:58:36 »
Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

I have an intuition that the "semen loss" idea is a dead end.  Ejaculation volume doesn't correlate with my symptoms, at all.  (In fact, I get symptoms with  "dry" orgasm.  There are ways you can achieve this).  And there are lots of people with low sperm counts, or reproductive problems, and they don't suffer from POIS.  And I don't know if there is any good reason to suspect semen loss in the first place?
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 06:01:12 by Counterpoints »

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Offline nsf

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3482 on: 15/02/2009 15:48:01 »
Hi All,

I have been suffering from POIS and I accidentally discovered this site some days ago, to realize that I am not alone!! I have read through most of the posts so far, and it is great job - I am hoping I find answers to my problem soon.

I am not upto speed on the root-cause that has been discussed in this forum. In my past non-medical self-experiments, I found the following were very helpful -

1. Drinking more liquids (water/buttermilk/coconut water)
2. Taking less balanced food (esp. non-fatty foods)
3. Chewing gums (Specifically, mint helps)
4. Taking "Cloves" - "Cloves" are general spice that should be available in general stores nearby (or any eastern shops). Put 2-3 pieces on the mouth, and leave it there to stay (keep swallowing the saliva) - this seems to calm the mind better.

I am hoping to stay active and learn together for a solution.

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Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3483 on: 15/02/2009 18:55:30 »
I haven't seen one live starfish on the beach for the last 25 years. I saw one this morning. On an optimistic note, since I have nothing new to add, we all do recover from POIS. This means that something is working during our recovery/refractory period. It's just way too slow and sluggish. Our brains are getting the orgasm signals loud and clear, but the inhibitory mechanisms and turn off switches are AWOL (absent without leave if you are not familiar with this acronym).
I bet they're probably supposed to trigger immediately upon orgasm. Where the hell are they?
Sometimes I lay in bed and just watch these chemicals do their thing; on, off, and in between. Drives me mad. And I haven't even had a POIS episode for 10 weeks. Two nights ago, I thought I was going to have 4 our of 5 nights perfect sleep. I went to sleep like a baby. Watched the signals dueling with each other. Thought the good guy would win. WRONG------It was a close contest. I told my wife in the middle of the night that the good guys won. But alas, I had to admit that I was wrong. I just hate watching this tug of war. I have the same exact wrestling match with POIS, except I know exactly how it plays out. It doesn't surpise me. That's the bummer. But the switches are more or less the same.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3484 on: 15/02/2009 21:32:14 »
nsf, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!

Thank you for sharing the 4 things you found useful from your experiments. We look forward to more of your posts!

Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful to you:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video: A first!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse


In addition to our own interests, the above can be useful for you to show the medical world - who often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapist community.

Again, nsf, welcome!
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 21:52:17 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3485 on: 15/02/2009 21:50:26 »

Hi All,

I have been suffering from POIS...


nsf, it would be interesting to us to hear your symptoms.

We find that, for example, some of us are predominantly fatigue/exhaustion afflicted and others are primarily cognitive-impaired, e.g., brain fog, word finding difficulties, concentration.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3486 on: 15/02/2009 23:08:44 »

Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.


I have an intuition that the "semen loss" idea is a dead end.  Ejaculation volume doesn't correlate with my symptoms, at all.  (In fact, I get symptoms with  "dry" orgasm.  There are you can achieve this).  And there are lots of people with low sperm counts, or reproductive problems, and they don't suffer from POIS.  And I don't know if there is any good reason to suspect semen loss in the first place?


Counterpoints, if you disagree, wait a while to attack my argument, because I'm not fully convinced...just yet. I'm still mulling this over.

Semen loss is a 5,000 year old POIS theory! Taoist literature describes symptoms similar to ours and attributes them to loss of sperm. I was once a "true believer" but ultimately abandoned the idea, after I practiced complicated ejaculation-with-sperm-retention techniques. I have posted about that here several times.

But lately, I've been wondering about loss from the standpoint of sperm replacement as Rob described. After ejaculation, the body senses the need to replace sperm, even when it's a "dry" ejaculation. Maybe the brain can't tell the difference between wet and dry but only knows the ejaculation occurred. Perhaps the Taoist techniques I tried failed because the sperm was simply diverted to the bladder and was eventually "released" via urination. So it wasn't really "dry" in that the sperm were simply released elsewhere in the body.

In any case, it does make more sense with "wet". Testosterone, which has helped me enormously once I realized the reason for unsteady results at first, helps manufacture sperm more efficiently. If testosterone is low, the body possibly has a much harder time of it, replaces sperm more slowly, and the result is POIS.

But I realize, Counterpoints, that people like you, for example, have a healthy testosterone reading, so I can't explain yours that way. Maybe only for others (predominantly exhausted/fatigued vs. primarily cognitive) can it be explained? (btw, I assume you tested for free testosterone? That pointed to a drastic shift for me from "normal" to "deficient").

I know that the association (which might not be cause and effect) with that feeling of being sperm-"empty" for several days after ejaculation, and having POIS seems most reasonable to me.

Conversely, when I'm feeling "full" once again...no POIS.

And now on steady-flow testosterone (not the T-injectables I took before) I feel "full" very quickly afterwards and again...no POIS.

And, like you, I don't believe that sperm volume makes a difference. To me, it's possibly a question of simple yes/no replacement that correlates with POIS.

Levitra seems to enhance the process, but I don't know why.
« Last Edit: 15/02/2009 23:33:12 by demografx »

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Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3487 on: 15/02/2009 23:42:50 »
High Cortisol and POIS:
Dr. Waldinger's thesis is beginning to make A LOT of sense to me:
If orgasm triggers an autoallergic response, there is necessarily an increase in cortisol to fight the inflammation, with a few days (generally) needed until resolution [perhaps leaving a permanent inflammatory predisposition that is triggered each time there is an orgasm----and in some of us, getting worse as time passes].Not only that, but in many of us there may also be a corresponding decrease in testosterone due to the fact that progesterone will then be converted to cortisol production removing it from its co-function as a precursor to testosterone. This may cause a permanent or temporary reduction in testosterone. This may also cause an imbalance with estrogen leaving many of the symptoms associated with POIS. This may explain why Goingcrazy got relief by waiting a week before orgasm. He is a young man and the autoinflammatory response got a rest; the autoinflammatory predisposition was not so pronounced like in those men who are older. The body may learn bad habits. If this is true, we must break the bad habit, no matter how long it has been in place.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3488 on: 15/02/2009 23:56:14 »
Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

Martin, may I make a suggestion? Don't drive yourself crazy (like I did!) trying to find out why. We may never know. The most important thing, to me, is progress in finding alleviation. And we are doing that incredibly well,,,and fast!

I suspect most illnesses' origins, e.g., cancer, are largely unknown.

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Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3489 on: 16/02/2009 00:02:31 »
Demo:
Interesting ideas re: sperm replacement. I wonder what the chemistry of that process is e.g. precursors, pathways, enzymes etc.  I wonder if it takes a lot of "energy or calories" to replace. It seems logical. Some people may be on the borderline with free testosterone. Maybe that is why POIS either appears to remain constant with some people or the recovery period grows longer with age. How do we explain our cases that emerged after age 30? Slow depletion? Sounds logical anyhow-----------

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3490 on: 16/02/2009 13:59:45 »
Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

Martin, may I make a suggestion? Don't drive yourself crazy (like I did!) trying to find out why. We may never know. The most important thing, to me, is progress in finding alleviation. And we are doing that incredibly well,,,and fast!

I suspect most illnesses' origins, e.g., cancer, are largely unknown.
I agree with you but I think that the more we'll know the more we'll be able to treat durably the real cause, not only a part of the symptoms.

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3491 on: 16/02/2009 14:54:19 »
Thanks Demo for giving hope. In fact I have hope to find a cure eventually (because of this forum) but I'm not sure I will understand exactly what's happening in the body during pois. Since I'm trying everyday to figure out why, this is somewhat frustrating ! Specially this question about the loss of fluids.

I have an intuition that the "semen loss" idea is a dead end.  Ejaculation volume doesn't correlate with my symptoms, at all.  (In fact, I get symptoms with  "dry" orgasm.  There are ways you can achieve this).  And there are lots of people with low sperm counts, or reproductive problems, and they don't suffer from POIS.  And I don't know if there is any good reason to suspect semen loss in the first place?
I'm glad you're giving your opinion on this, even if it's not my intuition. Maybe what you're saying is true for you. I think everyone can be sensitive to differents things that are happening at orgasm. For example some people could be affected by the weaning of endorphins which are released at orgasm, this makes a lot of sense, or it could be this autoallergic reaction that is discussed now.

I'm not sure to understand your arguments (low sperm counts). The quantity of prostatic fluid can be normal with low sperm counts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate
In human prostatic secretions, the protein content is less than 1% and includes proteolytic enzymes, prostatic acid phosphatase, and prostate-specific antigen. The secretions also contain zinc with a concentration 500-1,000 times the concentration in blood.
I would be surprised if this has absolutely no action on us. Zinc is necessary to regulate the pituitary and I think it's hard to say if we are deficient or not.

For people who have reproductive problems and who don't have pois, it's very interesting, maybe you know something more specific ?

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Offline nsf

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3492 on: 16/02/2009 15:59:50 »
Thanks Demo and B_Jim.

I shall get some leisurely time soon and list the symptoms and POIS experiences I have been going through.

To your query B_Jim, I meant taking in LESS fat and high carb. & Sugar.




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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3493 on: 16/02/2009 16:06:12 »
TESTOSTERONE SAGA

Endo is switching me to gel after patches caused a suddenly strong allergic reaction 3 weeks into application. So will start POIS Forum birthday with slightly new direction!

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3494 on: 16/02/2009 16:16:03 »
Underwater, you asked a very good question about sperm replacement. Yes, I believe it takes a lot of energy and bodily resources. No proof though, maybe someone can point us to factual research sources?

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3495 on: 16/02/2009 16:18:51 »
Nsf, thanks, looking forward to it!

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3496 on: 16/02/2009 16:32:38 »
Martin, of course you are right, the more we know about the underlying mechanism of POIS, the better the treatment

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Offline jidmiddleton

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3497 on: 16/02/2009 17:18:57 »
Hi All,

My name is Jon. I am a 30yo male living in the UK. I was astonished to discover this thread via google. I didn't know about POIS prior to reading this thread but believe that it reasonably accurately describes what happens to me.

My symptoms, post orgasm/ejaculation (either via intercourse or masturbation), are as follows:

Extreme mood swings (tremendous despondency or rage, irritability, fight or flight basically)
Extreme desire to be 'left alone' away from all forms of social interaction
Total brain fuzz (poor memory and recall, poor concentration, distinct inability to perform to known levels)
No physical symptoms

The severity of these symptoms is heightened in periods of stress (I have a stressful job). My 'normal' state is one of clarity, fine recall, excellent concentration and well-balanced emotions. These symptoms begin a few hours after orgasm/ejaculation, peak about 24 hours after and finally totally subside after approx 2/3days.

I have had these symptoms since early (pre sex or masturbation) puberty (unsure if I had many wet dreams at outset but possible). The symptoms were seemingly less frequent and severe throughout this period and on to my early 20s. It should be noted though that I was very physically and sexually active (several ejaculations a week, if not once a day) with low to no stress and excellent diet throughout this same period. My symptoms came to a head in my mid-20s to now when I was considerably less physically active, equally sexually active and with a poorer diet and high stress.

High stress is not to blame though as I have used a diary to track the incidence of outside pressure/stress and ejaculation against the symptoms. Ejaculation/orgasm is the prime cause to the extent where it is a repeatable and measurable test (ejaculation/orgasm = symptoms). I should also state that I do not have any emotional or psychological hangups about ejaculation/orgasm/sex/masturbation that could alter the results from demonstrating anything other than a physiological reaction.

I have always assumed that the symptoms were caused by an acetylcholine deficiency induced through sex or masturbation. There are a few websites that state this (link is stated with regards to masturbation but I believe this should be viewed as ejaculation as a whole). Acetylcholine deficiencies cause the body to over rely on the sympathetic nervous system which would explain my symptoms perfectly. I find that if I eat plenty of eggs and meat esp liver (choline rich foods) then I recover faster and can reduce the worst of my symptoms during an episode. Choline is the building block of acetylcholine.

Another thing that is interesting is I have always suffered from reflex epilepsy (Tourette's syndrome). This manifests itself as a physical tic that occurs very sporadically throughout the day (on a given day, I may have some tics, on another day, none). It is thought that reflex epilepsy is caused by problems with neurotransmitter levels esp. acetylcholine (I had an MRI and EEG at 19, both were clear). As such, it is one of the few conditions that can be treated with nicotine. Nicotine is effectively super-acetycholine. I do not smoke though. However, this may explain why people crave nicotine after sex if there is a normal level of acetycholine reduction in everyone post orgasm/ejaculation.

I would be very interested to hear from you all. I would especially be interested to know if anyone has any sort of physical tic associated with POIS and anyone whose symptoms are eased by eating choline-rich foods.

I would also like to ask the group how their symptoms are affected by smoking/nictone patches.

Please feel free to ask any questions that you have of me. I will be happy to answer.

I accept that my symptoms do not mirror everyones here but it may certainly be of use to the people who only suffer from the mental issues. It may be that I have a condition related solely to acetylcholine (poss. confirmed by the epilepsy) that is worsened by orgasm/ejaculation rather than being caused by it.

Best Regards,

Jon

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Offline Pantaloon

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3498 on: 16/02/2009 19:40:58 »
and in some of us, getting worse as time passes
Do people generally find that POIS gets worse as you get older?
My experience is that it maybe gets worse, but my ability to manage/mitigate it gets better.

« Last Edit: 16/02/2009 19:42:56 by Pantaloon »

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Offline Pantaloon

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3499 on: 16/02/2009 19:54:39 »
... and i try to eat anti-infllammatory food.

Hi B_Jim

Can you give us some examples of anti-inflammatory food?

I've found that I get some relief from what traditional chinese medicine considers to be drying foods. This includes beans (aduki etc), squashes, polenta, pineapple, pears, papaya, garlic and onions.