Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

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Offline Bizzy

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #650 on: 07/06/2008 11:24:43 »
I also don't think POIS has any connection to chronic fatigue syndrome.

Its not possible for you to say that because you simply dont know. There might be a connection with an underlying mechanism for both POIS and CFS.

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #651 on: 07/06/2008 21:35:58 »
"The low activity of adrenal glands is for me the best theory."

This makes total sense to me, based on my very long experience with both CFS and POIS.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #652 on: 08/06/2008 00:24:13 »
SMALL adrenal gland: years ago, my Oriental massage/accupuncturist was convinced that was my POIS cause.

CFS and POIS: My psychiatrist a couple years back thought my POIS could actually be CFS.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2008 00:37:12 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #653 on: 08/06/2008 00:42:05 »
I just want to make a summary of our solutions :

-Demografx : 75% healed with Levitra.

- Agjchs : healed with only 10mg of DHEA after orgasm.

-Dave23 : healed with
Testosterone
Dostinex (inhibitor prolactin). 500 to 1000mg 4 days a week
Aromasin (blocking aromatase enzyme => aromasin decrease estrogens)
5Htp (serotonin precursor)
Relora (cortisol inhibitor, supposed to increase DHEA), phytotherapy supplement
GABA (neurotransmitter)
Powerfull (musculation supplement) , supposed to increase Growth hormon.
Reset AD (musculation supplement), supposed to heal adrenal fatigue
DIM (di-indole methane) phytotherapy supplement, supposed to balance estrogens
 


B_Jim, thank you for summarizing the concrete "cures" we have found. If I weren't involved in the POIS Forum, I might have not connected the Levitra with POIS, I might have just thought the symptom abatement was just a "fluke".

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #654 on: 08/06/2008 00:52:01 »
The number of POIS-cure ideas and detail floating around here is staggering. I can't wait to get some help from the outside (like the endocrinologist) otherwise I'll surely develop COIS! (Curative Overload Information Syndrome  [;D] )

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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #655 on: 08/06/2008 06:02:22 »
...Many infectious agents can affect adrenal gland function and cause adrenal insufficiency. These agents, which are listed in Table 1, include mycobacterial, bacterial, viral, and fungal etiologies...
Infectious Causes of Adrenal Insufficiency Fungal Agents
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/462327_5

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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #656 on: 08/06/2008 06:09:48 »
...Americans are the most fungally infected in the world.  Americans eat more sugar than any other country.  This is no coincidence that the largest sugar consumer is also the most fungally infected group of people.  Sugar disrupts metabolism and damages glands, which repress the immune system.  This opens a door to allow fungi to proliferate throughout the body.  In addition to immune suppression, the sugar fuels the fungi and allows it to thrive...Anti-biotics kill the good bacteria within us.  Not only that, but they are themselves mycotoxins. This allows fungal infections to grow like wildfire. 

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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #657 on: 08/06/2008 06:12:13 »
They now have low cellular sugar, a perfect playground for fungus to feed. However, now the cells do not have enough sugar to burn for energy so we become weak if we do not eat often and we surely do not have enough sugar to keep us alive during the night!

The brain now signals the adrenal gland to send out adrenal hormones to keep the body functioning during the night, which it does. But the side effect is that during the night the person may get hot or they may even have night sweats!


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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #658 on: 08/06/2008 06:16:05 »
The next is very interesting: This helps explain why there is no simple solution to 'Chronic Fatigue, diabetes or heart disease, cancer, Fibromyalgia, and many more diseases.í A host of some of these disorders are called a syndrome, in other words they are your fault. And where do the great scientists of our time say all these diseases come from? No one knows.

But fatigue is associated with all of them.

There appears to be not one but many failing systems also associated with these disorders. In most cases there are some common causes of the system failures. The most common cause seems to be a faulty immune system that allows Candida Overgrowth! Observation strongly points in that direction.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #659 on: 08/06/2008 20:17:28 »
I also don't think POIS has any connection to chronic fatigue syndrome.

Its not possible for you to say that because you simply dont know. There might be a connection with an underlying mechanism for both POIS and CFS.

Excuse me, it is very possible for me to say "I think...".  I am not making any definitive statements.  I am assigning a low probability to the event that CFS and POIS are closely connected, based on my background and what I have read about each.

B_Jim, I notice my treatment has not been included in the "summary".  Also, I think there was a case where Zoloft was used as a 100% cure?
« Last Edit: 08/06/2008 20:23:55 by Counterpoints »

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Offline poisONoUS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #660 on: 08/06/2008 20:35:55 »
Hi Everyone,
So, I have been following this thread for quite a while now, but just now I decided to describe some of my symptons and share some of my ideas.

I am in my low 20ís and even though I feel like I have always had POIS, I only noticed it ~2 years ago. I share many of the symptoms mentioned here before; the main ones being: brain fogginess, low energy, anxiety, mind numbness and lost of care towards the outside world. Brain fogginess (and lost of train of thought) might be the most noticeable symptom for me, specially because I am constantly put into mental challenges due to school/work and can always tell the difference when I am having a POIS. So, tasks that would usually take me a short period of time to execute can sometimes take twice as long when having POIS. Actually everything seems harder to do: even communicating to other people (as mentioned here before) is harder. And, followed by that, comes loss of confidence and depersonalization. 

From my own research and readings from the posts here, dopamine seems to be the most plausible influence on all this. To make story short and from what I understand, dopamine is one of the neurotransmitters responsible for facilitating synapses and also has a big role in motivation/reward (among other functions). When I am having POIS, I tend to feel unmotivated and lose interest on the things that happen around me. It happens because I do not get as much hormonal reward (no good feeling) after doing things. For instance, an ice cream does not taste as good when I am having POIS. However, (hah, and now it gets tricky) my body was desperately asking for that ice cream. It was doing so, because it noticed I was down and needed to give an uplift to the system and put me in a better mood (fight that cortisol). That also explains why I am always craving sweets and junk food when in POIS. And, about the brain fogginess now, that would probably happen because dopamine is related in accelerating synapses and responsible for cognition. People with Alzheimerís (who not only have memory loss but also problems with abstract thinking) are constantly found to have very low dopamine level.

So, basically I have just been trying to sort stuff in my head and trying to make some sense out of all this. I have no medical background, but the dopamine explanation seems to be the most logical to me so far. I am aware that our body is incredibly complex (specially our brain) and that there are many things going on, so it is hard to blame it all on a single neurotransmitter. Especially since there has been variations of POIS seen on this website. Some people for instance, like solution, has intestinal problems which does not happen to me at all. Anyways, I am really in favor of finding professionals to do some research about all this so then people like us donít have to crack our heads trying to figure all this out without the equipment and knowledge necessary for that.

I have gone to an endocrinologist and an urologist. Like many of us here, I got nothing but blank stares and lack of understanding. I was asked to have a hormonal test checking for: testosterone, prolactin, FSH and LH. I havenít done them yet. One of the reasons is because they are not cheap and I am not sure they will tell anything. Perhaps by the end of the summer I will. I hope to have them done before and after orgasm. Anyways, thatís all for now. I am really glad to have found this website and been able read about your problems and relate them to mine.

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Offline poisONoUS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #661 on: 08/06/2008 21:07:15 »
I forgot to mention on my last post that POIS usually lasts 1-2 days for me. I can say that I feel totally recovered after
two good nights of sleep. I feel like taking naps in the middle of the day also helps. I have tried many different things like changing my diet and use vitamin supplements, but so far sleep has been the only remedy.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #662 on: 08/06/2008 21:31:23 »
poisONoUS,

Welcome! Really glad to read your story and to see the similarities. It really helps me to read confirmations of POIS after so many YEARS of blank stares from "professionals"!

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #663 on: 09/06/2008 02:32:19 »
B_Jim, I think Counterpoints also has successfully developed a "cure" - albeit inconsistent - with "good orgasm" and "bad orgasm"

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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #664 on: 09/06/2008 03:03:02 »
It is important to mention that Candida Syndrome include many Gastrointestinal symptoms, constipation, abdominal pain, diarrhea, gas, or bloating, and not necessarily one has to suffer all the symptoms, for example I do not suffer diarrhoea whereas  I suffer constipation and of course fatigue
« Last Edit: 09/06/2008 03:05:04 by solution »

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #665 on: 09/06/2008 22:03:23 »
demografx: "It really helps me to read confirmations of POIS after so many YEARS of blank stares from "professionals"!"

Not just blank stares, but also ridicule. I was laughed at by several health professionals who told me that "Only GUYS get tired
after orgasm. This doesn't happen to women." They could not comprehend that POIS was not just about "being tired," or that women
could actually have a bad experience with orgasm. I never mention it any more to any health professional I see. I just stick to the
basic CFS fatigue and leave it at that. I feel like I am on my own in finding the answer. And when I do, I can charge a fee for it.  [;D]


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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #666 on: 10/06/2008 04:18:00 »
GIRLWIND, I love your spirit/sense of humor. Great reminder for us to not fall into pit of depression over POIS!


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Offline msl

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #667 on: 10/06/2008 11:24:12 »
and the discussion continues xD Man i sure had a lot to catch up on since my last posts. It seems as though this page is getting a bit more precidence in the search results as there seems to be a lot more members joining lately =) I just thought id mention, i tend to have wet dreams in the morning, about 04:00? if thats any help, i heard this is because testosterone is highest in the morning "morning glory" and all that.. but its nice to communicate with people who know what we are talking about. One of the hardest things with this is not being able to talk to people about it!

-hey how are you?
er...good..

And so it happens again and i have 5 exams tomorrow and the academic aspirations for the future become ever more distant =) I liken it to getting beaten down to the floor, picking oneself up only for it to happen again. Each time it gets a little harder to stand up..

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Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #668 on: 10/06/2008 23:56:33 »
Hi everyone. My husband and I just found your fascinating thread. If we repeat information that was already discussed, please excuse us. We read a lot of the posts, but didn't have time to read them all.

We have been collecting information about post-sexual satiation "let down" for over a decade, although we did not know it had a name (POIS). In our experience, it affects both sexes, and actually most people. The reason most people don't notice is that the effects can be quite subtle: irritability, malaise, flatness - and most of us simply conclude that our mate is to blame, one way or the other. [:)]

Our theory is that it is a mammalian mating program, the purpose of which is to push us on to additional mates. After all, no mammals are monogamous (at least in the sense of "sexually exclusive").

After sexual satiation most mammals get restless and move on to their next dance partners. This is known as the Coolidge Effect. The Coolidge Effect refers to the fact that a sexually satiated animal loses interest in a mate, but will perk up (surge of dopamine?) for a novel partner. It would be interesting to know if any of you have noticed your symptoms ease if, during your malaise, you are offered a novel, willing partner.... [;)]

Unlike most mammals, humans also have a pair-bonding program (or have adapted the mammalian parent-child bond). It keeps us together for a while...ideally long enough to get a kid on its feet. But we also have this old mammalian program, which makes union less and less rewarding. (Marriage studies show that marriages grow increasingly unhappy over time.)

In short, we can defy our mammalian program and stay married, but apparently many of us can't prevent the subconscious feelings after sexual satiation. Those feelings, when projected onto each other, can make our unions seem less rewarding. We believe that these post-satiation feelings, weak or strong, are a vestige of this old program - there to urge us to stray. Sex that causes malaise can obviously result in uneasiness about ongoing intimacy.

This brings me back to the neurochemical cycle behind this mammalian program. In rats, both female and male, scientists have observed predictable effects for two weeks after sexual satiation (male), or after vigorous intercourse (female). Scientists have tracked post orgasmic changes in human males out for at least a week. In short, the orgasm cycle is far longer than we've realized. We'd be happy to share abstracts, if anyone is interested.

The biggest player in this cycle seems to be dopamine - with secondary players that influence dopamine levels, such as testosterone receptors, prolactin, serotonin, etc. Low dopamine can be very uncomfortable. Consider this experiment where a medical student artificially lowered his dopamine:  http://www.reuniting.info/science/articles/acute_dopamine_depletion_causes_psychological_distress
His symptoms sound a lot like the symptoms many of you report - and like a lot of the symptoms we hear from visitors to our site. Interestingly, those leaving porn behind *also* report extreme symptoms, close to some I've read here in your thread. This is more evidence that it is sexual satiation that sets off the discomfort. Perhaps some people are satiated sooner than others.

The real news I want to share is that there is a way to make love, and release all sexual tension, without orgasm. This means that people suffering from extreme forms of POIS can still make love quite contentedly. When my husband and I got together 7 years ago, we began experimenting with this other way of making love (which has been around for thousands of years and goes by many names). Within four months he had dropped an addiction. Within a year he was off of Prozac, and his chronic depression was gone for good. I also experienced health benefits: no more UTI or yeast infections. It also increases the harmony between us, just as the ancients recorded. Apparently it's a way of tiptoeing around our mammalian mating program.

The other way of making love is gentle intercourse, interspersed with periods of relaxation. You make love as long as you like, but without ever stressing the prostate. The emphasis is on generous affection.

If you're interested in our take on what may be going on in the brain during conventional sex, have a look at "Your Brain on Sex." http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

Sorry to go on and on, but it's great to be able to share what we're learning with others who are contributing to the same pool of knowledge.

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Offline Guthrie

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #669 on: 11/06/2008 02:21:23 »
Hello Reuniting/Marina,

Thanks for joining in on our thread.  Actually, your site was one of first that I found, before this thread got off the ground.  You have certainly done a lot of work compiling different articles and information.

In my experience, there was not a difference in my POIS symptoms when I first started dating my current girlfriend.  So, the 'new partner'/'old partner' theory doesn't seem to hold in my case, at least.  I have found no difference in orgasm with 'new partner', 'longtime partner,' or masturbation.  It seems more tied to the mechanism of orgasm itself, rather than the partner or lack thereof.

In some ways, the POIS group seems like it could provide a good way to figure out the 'sexual let-down' mechanism that you think it found in most people.  If our POIS symptoms are a more extreme version of what happens in most people, it might be easier to figure out the general biological mechanism at work by studying us.  Thus, there could be a wider and more extensive benefit to science/medicine/psychology to be gained by focusing on causes or cures for POIS.  In other words, in trying to convince researchers to investigate POIS, it need not be presented only as an ailment that affects very few people, but it could have also implications for (subtler) symptoms that may affect the broader population.

« Last Edit: 11/06/2008 02:24:32 by Guthrie »

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Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #670 on: 11/06/2008 03:47:55 »
I agree that your misery might be the key to understanding a broader problem. Small comfort, eh?  [:(]

I think I wasn't clear. I wasn't asking if you have the problem with a new partner. I was being a bit wicked and asking if, during the POIS period set off by one partner, your symptoms improve if you are offered sex with someone *else.* I'm thinking of a naughty remark by comedian Chris Rock who once said, "There's nothing like new p*ssy to clear the mind!"

My take on that is that his dopamine soars when she shows up...but that at some point after he partakes of his new "p*ssy," he will feel his brain go fuzzy again. So she only seems to be "the cure."

Anyhow, I'm sorry you're suffering with this. My personal version of this problem was to get extremely short tempered after orgasm (not necessarily right after). I can tell you that I don't miss the cause, and very much enjoy the benefits of greater harmony. So maybe this program is a blessing in disguise for those of us who are observant enough to catch  on. Very cool thread.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #671 on: 11/06/2008 03:49:25 »
Hello Reuniting/Marina,

Thanks for joining in on our thread.  Actually, your site was one of first that I found, before this thread got off the ground.  You have certainly done a lot of work compiling different articles and information.

In my experience, there was not a difference in my POIS symptoms when I first started dating my current girlfriend.  So, the 'new partner'/'old partner' theory doesn't seem to hold in my case, at least.  I have found no difference in orgasm with 'new partner', 'longtime partner,' or masturbation.  It seems more tied to the mechanism of orgasm itself, rather than the partner or lack thereof.

In some ways, the POIS group seems like it could provide a good way to figure out the 'sexual let-down' mechanism that you think it found in most people.  If our POIS symptoms are a more extreme version of what happens in most people, it might be easier to figure out the general biological mechanism at work by studying us.  Thus, there could be a wider and more extensive benefit to science/medicine/psychology to be gained by focusing on causes or cures for POIS.  In other words, in trying to convince researchers to investigate POIS, it need not be presented only as an ailment that affects very few people, but it could have also implications for (subtler) symptoms that may affect the broader population.



Guthrie, this is excellent! This might help smooth the road for us to attract our research endocrinologist, since our POIS Group may represent "the tip of the iceberg" and not just a tiny little segment of society! Thanks.

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #672 on: 11/06/2008 03:58:50 »
HELLO REUNITING--

I have practiced tantric sex with my partner for 9 years. (I believe that's the kind of "gentle intercourse" that you speak of.) But
despite the non-orgasmic focus of tantric sex, occasionally orgasms happen anyway--whether during sex or sometimes during
sleep. And in the case of people with POIS, those symptoms are more severe than the usual "post-sexual satiation let down" that
you are addressing. There are times when, after orgasm, I could not function AT ALL and crashed restlessly all day and felt like I
was on a bad mind-fogging drug trip. Also, on many occasions I have become ill with colds and flus due to orgasmic exhaustion.

Also, I have NEVER felt the urge for a new novel partner in those moments of post orgasm depletion. The idea of more sex at that
point of depletion would be as appealing as trying to eat a multi-course feast after a night of food poisoning.  [;D]

So maybe there is some truth in the "normal" (whatever that means) male/female mammalian "post sexual let down" response that
rings true for those who have a faster rebound, and who aren't as depleted/drained/bottomed-out as some of us are after orgasm.
But speaking for myself, I can't relate much to your theory. Although I do hope you're open to investigating us more thoroughly.
We are definitely in need of being investigated.  [;)]


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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #673 on: 11/06/2008 04:08:04 »
I do not know if this can help unveil the mystery, but as I say I notice that after an orgasm I completely alters the digestive system and begins fatigue, which is disappearing as I am about evacuating during the week.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #674 on: 11/06/2008 04:15:44 »
Reuniting, welcome to the POIS Forum! I agree with girlwind that our symptoms are so severe that it is hard to relate to these "normal" post-satiation observations. The POIS severity usually lasts DAYS. It is often monstrous, debilitating and incapacitating. It has ruined a chunk of my life and most people here, either directly from the symptoms or the "just around the corner" anticipatory fear of having an unwanted orgasm, such as a wet dream.

We are looking for a research endocrinologist to read through our hundreds of posts and to recommend some low-risk cures (I have cured my POIS 75% with Levitra but that is risky for those without ED)

Anything you can do to help along those lines to reach this goal would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you and welcome again.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2008 04:23:06 by demografx »

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Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #675 on: 11/06/2008 16:37:24 »
Hi all. Thanks for the greetings. I have no doubt that your symptoms are uniquely severe, and I am not trying to make light of them. And there may be somewhat different causes for each of you. For example, some people have differences in their dopamine receptors, which change their susceptibility to addictions and who knows what else? Others have changes to these mechanisms due to lack of childhood nurturing. Generous, non-goal oriented affection seems to ease some of these symptoms, perhaps due to the effects of oxytocin.

I will say that some of what we have uncovered is pretty strong proof that orgasm is a *long* cycle for everyone. So the fact that your symptoms linger for days is not surprising - even though the severity is greater than most people experience.

Since my husband and I also have orgasm occasionally (inadvertently), we have had a chance to watch the changes in ourselves. (And neither of us ever thought orgasm was a problem *before* we began observing ourselves.) The post-orgasmic fallout is always slightly different. Sometimes the symptoms seem more severe than others. No matter how mild the orgasm, we notice *some* unwelcome feelings (fatigue, irritability, brain fog in lesser degrees than many of you experience) off and on for a full two weeks. Any of you care to add your experiences to this thread? http://www.reuniting.info/node/1319 Effects of Orgasm: Male/Female Differences

As for tantra, I'm not sure that's the same thing as I'm talking about. Some tantra emphasizes the build up of sexual tension. Here's a description of what I'm referring to, just to clarify:

The technique is not based on control. You are not seeking to avoid orgasm or to manipulate your bodily energies; you are merely closing your eyes, feeling those energies stream into your heart, head and genitals and those of your lover, and allowing them to circulateÖ. You are always relaxing, relaxing, falling back into the heart. Effortless awareness is the key. All your energies will be drawn upward, diffused throughout the body.Ö As this takes place, lustful tendencies will be transmuted into feelings of love and the need for conventional orgasm will lessen.[James N. Powell, Energy and Eros: Teachings on the Art of Love, William Morrow and company, Inc. (1985):182]
__

Finally, here's an example of another mammal feeling totally knackered after sexual satiation: http://www.reuniting.info/science/coolidge_effect Could some combination of genes, environment, diet, other stimulants, other medications, other illnesses, etc. be speeding up this process in some of us?

I'll certainly post any clues we find - and keep tabs on your discoveries. My intuition says we're talking about the same continuum, but I may be wrong.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #676 on: 11/06/2008 18:25:09 »
Reuniting... POIS symptoms are extremely severe.  It's not a case of being more aware of something that most people feel; to be cliche, the difference is like night and day.   

I don't mean to say that you don't have some form of this though -- that is not my place.  Obviously you feel quite strongly about what symptoms you do experience, and I really hope you can help us. :).  I just want to emphasize how this is an uncommon condition (e.g. a majority of people do not have it), and how severe the symptoms are.


« Last Edit: 12/06/2008 03:09:19 by Counterpoints »

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Offline rock27

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #677 on: 11/06/2008 18:42:26 »
Great news, reuniting. If we are extreme representatives of a more common mechanism, it will be easier to find researchers. Because when they find a cure, they will be able to sell it to many people, not just to the few of us. Keep up the good work!
POIS, fatigue, brain fog, can't find words, irritated, can't concentrate.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #678 on: 12/06/2008 01:25:51 »

We have been collecting information about post-sexual satiation "let down" for over a decade, although we did not know it had a name (POIS).


Marnia, I think the confusion some of us had was from your sentence above which seems to indicate that you equate the universal post-sexual satiation "let down" with POIS.

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Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #679 on: 12/06/2008 04:49:59 »
Sorry for the confusion. My theory is that these conditions *are* on the same continuum, albeit at different ends. Who knows?

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #680 on: 12/06/2008 06:13:23 »
So your theory is that everyone has POIS?

I would call what we describe here as POIS and the more common one "post-sexual-letdown" - or somehow distinguish the two.

They are worlds apart.
« Last Edit: 12/06/2008 06:17:34 by demografx »

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Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #681 on: 12/06/2008 18:06:51 »
Yes Demo, I see that they are worlds apart. Yet if they lie on the same spectrum, it may be that a behavioral change is a possible solution.

I'm not a big fan of pharmaceuticals. The more I learn, the more obvious it is that we don't know as much about the side effects as we think. Psychotropic  drugs (which are necessary to change neurotransmitter levels in the brain - assuming that's part of this condition) are powerful. They alter the brain, they are hard to get off of (withdrawal misery), and they have had some very nasty, unexpected side effects, such as dampening or inflaming libido, causing addictions and even changes in sexual orientation (dopamine agonists), and severe depression (the ones that were promised to "cure" addiction, for example). Viagra, on the other hand, is associated with sudden blindness and heart disease/strokes.

So my thought is that a change in behavior that leads to satisfying lovemaking - albeit different than fertilization-driven sex - might be a better way to cope than pills. I am not in any way trying to downplay your suffering by suggesting that these conditions are on the same spectrum. I'm very sorry if I gave you that impression in error.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #682 on: 12/06/2008 19:09:59 »
Psychotropic  drugs (which are necessary to change neurotransmitter levels in the brain - assuming that's part of this condition) are powerful. They alter the brain, they are hard to get off of (withdrawal misery), and they have had some very nasty, unexpected side effects, such as dampening or inflaming libido, causing addictions and even changes in sexual orientation (dopamine agonists), and severe depression (the ones that were promised to "cure" addiction, for example). Viagra, on the other hand, is associated with sudden blindness and heart disease/strokes.

I disagree.  I have a tendency to avoid medication when I can -- as I think most people do -- but SSRIs, for instance, have really helped people with serious depression.  Many have taken them regularly for over 10 years, and the net effect has definitely been positive.  I think these drugs have done a lot more good than harm.  And I'm in a professional situation where I frequently have contact with extremely intelligent research physicians. The general consensus amongst them is the same: SSRIs have done a world of good for a lot of people, where pretty much anything else would have been far less effective.

As far as POIS goes, I would be absolutely thankful for anything that would alleviate the POIS symptoms; I'd easily trade POIS for erectile dysfunction.  I -- and I'm sure most others -- are in a state of desperation.  I don't have the luxury to think "Oh, these drugs have a somewhat unknown effect".  I just want something that works.

But I don't really want to turn this into a debate about whether various drugs are good or bad; I'll take what helps.  No-one would deny L-dopa to someone with Parkinson's.
« Last Edit: 12/06/2008 19:13:17 by Counterpoints »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #683 on: 12/06/2008 19:32:25 »
I don't think cause and effect have been proven with the very rare cases of ED drugs and blindness, but even a handful per millions where there is an association is enough to merit raising awareness and concern.

I agree that pharma can sometimes have unwanted side effects, but I am highly skeptical of any behavioral change working. I tried non-ejaculatory orgasm methods (Mantak Chia) and they failed. I learned that orgasm is the culprit, not ejaculation. But even if the technique worked, it was just way too difficult and an extreme lifestyle change that I believe few can successfully implement.

I'm sure an adept Yogi can adapt to these methods. But what about us mere mortals? I think it's asking too much of most people.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #684 on: 12/06/2008 19:36:23 »
Psychotropic  drugs (which are necessary to change neurotransmitter levels in the brain - assuming that's part of this condition) are powerful. They alter the brain, they are hard to get off of (withdrawal misery), and they have had some very nasty, unexpected side effects, such as dampening or inflaming libido, causing addictions and even changes in sexual orientation (dopamine agonists), and severe depression (the ones that were promised to "cure" addiction, for example). Viagra, on the other hand, is associated with sudden blindness and heart disease/strokes.

I disagree.  I have a tendency to avoid medication when I can -- as I think most people do -- but SSRIs, for instance, have really helped people with serious depression.  Many have taken them regularly for over 10 years, and the net effect has definitely been positive.  I think these drugs have done a lot more good than harm.  And I'm in a professional situation where I frequently have contact with extremely intelligent research physicians. The general consensus amongst them is the same: SSRIs have done a world of good for a lot of people, where pretty much anything else would have been far less effective.

As far as POIS goes, I would be absolutely thankful for anything that would alleviate the POIS symptoms; I'd easily trade POIS for erectile dysfunction.  I -- and I'm sure most others -- are in a state of desperation.  I don't have the luxury to think "Oh, these drugs have a somewhat unknown effect".  I just want something that works.

But I don't really want to turn this into a debate about whether various drugs are good or bad; I'll take what helps.  No-one would deny L-dopa to someone with Parkinson's.

COUNTERPOINTS: very well said! SSRI's turned my life around. I could care less about that third ear growing on my neck.

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #685 on: 12/06/2008 20:16:24 »
Hi, I 'm 38, new in this forum, and with a bad english.
I'm really exhausted since i'm 15  (2 years after the first ejaculation). I realized the fatigue was obviously linked with sex when i was 20. Probably i noticed this because i started to reduce orgasm frequency , this wasn't a voluntary practice, it was naturally happening  without conscious intervention. So, some days i was very tired and other days i was ok and  i was wondering why at the beginning.

Symptoms after orgasm or wet dream are very disabling  :

- can't practice any sport for 15 days. (low energy, weak legs)
- social phobia
- depression
- fear , anxiety
- exhaustion, prostration (> at day 2)
- and others ...
- No diahrrea or constipation. Sorry!

Ok i can be wrong but here are some of my thoughts about that, based on facts.
When i was 13 (1st ejaculation) i was not eating fruits and vegetables but instead, a lot of sugar and meat. 
Now i can say for sure that POIS is extremely aggravated if i eat raw vegetables or even vitamin C in pills. (True for milk also but less). Eating only meat and cereals, without vegetables has an aphrodisiac effect on me and reduce POIS symptoms . (However this diet is causing side effects.) Perhaps  i started sex too soon under the influence of an aphrodisiac diet, when i was under developped for my age (too small adrenals for example) because of inadequate nutrition. Then after with all the fatigue, perhaps the growth isnít what it should be.

POIS is not a new condition in the medical field: I have a medical dictionnary (1976 french book, Larousse) written by real doctors.
They say that sexual abstinence is necessary
-for teens otherwise they will run to nervous exhaustion. 
-for adults after sexual excess and can help for erectile dysfunction.

According to other books, all the symptoms of POIS, (bad effects following sex) can be artificially given  to everyone with several poisonous substances . Here these substances given in small doses are classified as remedies but be very careful if you take this because you can have irreversible aggravations of your condition (my experience), even if you stop soon and if you feel better at the beginning.
http://www.hpathy.com/diseases/spermatorrhoea-symptoms-treatment-cure.asp

I was thinking that semen loss was responsible for the symptoms because for me and others here the loss of pre-cum liquid cause problems (less) . Semen contains a lot of nutrients. 
Also some old books relate a disease called spermatorrhea where seminal losses occur without orgasm and cause POIS.
Is it possible that with the taoist practices, ejaculation inside,  you lose sperm in the bladder ?
And for women  they can also ejaculate, perhaps without knowing the fact if itís inside ... Just an idea like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_ejaculation
However Iím not against the idea that itís only the orgasm the main problem, I simply donít know.

I hope you are all a bit ok anyway !
« Last Edit: 13/06/2008 01:05:57 by martin88 »

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #686 on: 12/06/2008 22:59:11 »
Drugs are not my cup of Prozac. I definitely prefer natural solutions, which I'm sure are out there and have far less risk.
Everybody is different, of course, and we all can choose what route we want to take.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #687 on: 13/06/2008 00:04:01 »
It would be great if everything had a natural solution. Unfortunately, that's not the real world.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #688 on: 13/06/2008 03:07:23 »
It would be great if everything had a natural solution. Unfortunately, that's not the real world.

Exactly.  For instance, it would be transparently foolish to recommend only 'natural' solutions to someone with a condition like Parkinson's disease, or diabetes. 
« Last Edit: 13/06/2008 03:11:26 by Counterpoints »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #689 on: 13/06/2008 03:30:11 »
MARTIN88

Welcome to the POIS forum! Thank you for your post.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #690 on: 13/06/2008 03:32:37 »
It would be great if everything had a natural solution. Unfortunately, that's not the real world.

Exactly.  For instance, it would be transparently foolish to recommend only 'natural' solutions to someone with a condition like Parkinson's disease, or diabetes. 

Definitely. And I believe POIS is right up there - in life-affecting severity - with those 2 conditions.

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Offline solution

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #691 on: 13/06/2008 04:48:52 »
One thing I am absolutely secure, when I have an orgasm I feel almost inmediately that something weird happens in my stomach. I feel like my organism whants to sweep stomach contents to intestine, and that get manifested with fatigue and bad mood. I think that may be some substance poured inside by the orgasm mechanism produce this effect. The process I described it last few days and it is acompanied by other common Pois symthoms that I think are result of that process. And not necessarly having diarrea, it is not my case, I start to get very constipated, wich it helps to get worse others symthomps, like to much fatigue, headaches, swollen nose, greasy nose, sweats, get hungry, specially need for sugar foods somethimes or big meals, little of acne, hard hair hard to comb, among many others.
« Last Edit: 13/06/2008 05:01:40 by solution »

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #692 on: 13/06/2008 04:59:39 »
It would be great if everything had a natural solution. Unfortunately, that's not the real world.

Exactly.  For instance, it would be transparently foolish to recommend only 'natural' solutions to someone with a condition like Parkinson's disease, or diabetes. 
Thanks for your welcome B Jim and Demografx
I understand your point Counterpoints and the idea behind. But it's not a very good example for L-Dopa and insulin which can almost be considered natural substances, however not found without prescription at the local natural food/herbal store i admit ! About SSRI i'm sure it has unknown bad effects and i have big hesitation since a long time to take this medication. If it's good for PE perhaps it's good to reduce wet dreams. I have to push myself to try this. It seems i have a kind of gradual POIS : i'm a lot better after pois day 4 but I really start to be mentally well (self confidence) just the day before a wet dream , approx pois day 15-21.

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #693 on: 13/06/2008 05:41:56 »
It would be great if everything had a natural solution. Unfortunately, that's not the real world.

Exactly.  For instance, it would be transparently foolish to recommend only 'natural' solutions to someone with a condition like Parkinson's disease, or diabetes. 
Thanks for your welcome B Jim and Demografx
I understand your point Counterpoints and the idea behind. But it's not a very good example for L-Dopa and insulin which can almost be considered natural substances, however not found without prescription at the local natural food/herbal store i admit ! About SSRI i'm sure it has unknown bad effects and i have big hesitation since a long time to take this medication. If it's good for PE perhaps it's good to reduce wet dreams. I have to push myself to try this. It seems i have a kind of gradual POIS : i'm a lot better after pois day 4 but I really start to be mentally well (self confidence) just the day before a wet dream , approx pois day 15-21.


We are now getting into the semantics of what it means to be 'natural', and I think this is besides the point.  The way it is often used, 'natural', is somewhat of a vague term; anything is natural in some sense.

Essentially, if your body is complaining because it lacks something, the drug that most effectively replenishes whatever it is you are lacking is the drug that will help you most; whether or not it is easily accessible in nature is not terribly important, relative to treating the condition.  Also, something being 'natural' (e.g. somewhat easily accessible in nature) has good connotations, but not rightly so; there are many many poisons in nature, far worse than the side effects of most pharmaceuticals. Natural remedies (e.g. foxglove) can also have lethal side effects.  The idea of reverting back to the basics is somewhat of a backlash against pharmaceutical industries, and also a result of an inherent mistrust one has for anything that man has tampered with; it's not totally reasonable in many situations, however.

I don't feel I have the luxury of worrying about whether I could find a treatment in nature; I really feel the need for relief, and like those with Parkinson's, or diabetes, a naturally accessible (non-prescription) remedy may not be the most effective option.  There are many, many, other conditions I could also have used as examples -- and that really is besides the point.  The point is that, for well understood reasons, some conditions will be more effectively treated with processed medications than by any other means, and this may be the case with POIS; it's not something I'm going to rule out.  I am desperate for a solution and therefore open minded to suggestions.
« Last Edit: 13/06/2008 06:01:29 by Counterpoints »

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Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #694 on: 13/06/2008 18:19:14 »
The point I was making when I triggered this discussion about natural vs synthetic remedies is that we all have a CHOICE
about how to proceed, and that it's up to each of us to find treatment solutions that we are comfortable with, and that suit
our individual needs.

Yes, there are some medical conditions that require the use of pharmaceuticals. But in many instances, there are natural
treatment options that are downplayed or dismissed, because the tendency in our culture is to go for the "quick fix" that
ultimately only suppresses symptoms and ignores the underlying original cause of the problem. THREE EXAMPLES: 1) Many
type two diabetics "cure" their diabetes when they begin to eat healthy and lose weight. 2) Back in the 90's Dr. Dean Ornish
proved that CAD (coronary artery disease) could be reversed with strict low-fat dietary practices, meditation and exercise. 
3) In 1999, in a double-blind study of 30 patients who were recently ill with bipolar disorder, Dr. Andrew Stoll (a Harvard
psychiatrist), discovered that omega-3 fatty acids from concentrated fish oil to be an effective antidepressant and mood
stabilizer--without any of the toxic effects of the pharmaceuticals.

When it comes to POIS, I personally am not willing to submit myself to ingesting synthetic pharmaceuticals in desperation
"to fix" the POIS problem. This decision comes from the facts of my personal medical history and from the serious allergic
reactions and side-effects I've experienced in the past from taking both over-the-counter and pharmaceutical drugs. (I
grew up with a medical doctor father, who like many doctors of his generation, handed out pills like candy. Hence I have
had A LOT of experience with the modern day pharmacopeia. And... I am not impressed.)

Because there is, as of yet, no clear definitive understanding of the CAUSE of POIS, my attitude is a wait-and-see one. I
want to know what I am treating before I commit to treating it.






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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #695 on: 13/06/2008 19:36:37 »
TO COUNTERPOINTS: REPLY FROM TNS RE HOSTING YOUR FORM

Hello demografx,
 
thank you for writing. I'm sorry I've been slow to reply - very busy at the moment.
 
I am afraid that we've got to say no to this request purely on the grounds of fairness; we're pretty stretched with our time and resources, and setting up and supporting things like this further eats into that time.
 
Also, I am unwilling to set a precedent because this would mean we could not legitimately refuse to provide other groups or parties with free special infrastructure, and if we were to refuse them we could then be accused of favouritism (or worse).
 
I am quite happy for you to use the forum to canvas opinion from interested parties - and perhaps a carefully crafted poll help you to do that - but I'm afraid that a webform, at this stage, is not something we're willing to provide.
 
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

For The Naked Scientists

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Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #696 on: 13/06/2008 21:34:57 »
Demografx: It would take pretty much zero time and resources for them to give us some web-space, and technical support isn't necessary.  But anyways, if they don't want to help, I will make sure this happens some other way: I know of some people who could easily help, but for the sake of anonymity, I was going to wait on asking.  Thanks for looking into this.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #697 on: 14/06/2008 05:18:02 »

Demografx: It would take pretty much zero time and resources for them to give us some web-space, and technical support isn't necessary.  But anyways, if they don't want to help, I will make sure this happens some other way: I know of some people who could easily help, but for the sake of anonymity, I was going to wait on asking.  Thanks for looking into this.


They are extremely busy right now, and also they said they would contact Cambridge U. to inquire about a consulting endocrinologist for our POIS Forum. Thanks for understanding.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #698 on: 14/06/2008 05:24:35 »

Because there is, as of yet, no clear definitive understanding of the CAUSE of POIS, my attitude is a wait-and-see one. I want to know what I am treating before I commit to treating it.


girlwind, the POIS-cause information you wish will hopefully come from the research endocrinologist we're trying to recruit. Keep in mind that we're in the very beginning, baby stages with POIS. So far, as you can see, NOTHING has been accomplished to date worldwide re a definitive understanding of this vicious malady. But this Forum, to me, is an incredible breakthrough. Prior to the Forum, we had absolutely nothing. Now we have hundreds of focused pages chock full of fascinating personal history and even some successes in the cure department. To some degree, I attribute my partial cure to this Forum in that it raised my awareness of possible contributors and alleviants of POIS.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 05:35:56 by demografx »

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #699 on: 14/06/2008 06:27:01 »
We are now getting into the semantics of what it means to be 'natural', and I think this is besides the point. 

That's not a problem if it's besides, honestly it was just a friendly remark without importance from me because i found your examples funny, "bad luck choices". For me nothing is more natural than insulin for lack of insulin which is directly involved in a life process.As Girlwind say, it's far more natural to treat diabete with exercise and diet if possible, I know it's difficult to measure out insulin (synthetic, very effective), finally it's not so natural a doctor who thinks he's himself a pancreas ! I'm not against pharmaceuticals or against natural remedies if they are effective and not harmful. I try to stay open minded with all therapies because i think both can be very effective.(eg foxglove !). Since i had an horrible experience with a pharmaceutical drug in the past which could have been replaced by an other one safer if the doctor had correctly red the warnings, I try to avoid now. To use your own terms I don't feel I have the luxury of taking the risk to be worse than i am today, because i'm also severely ill.
I hope you're doing well with your form. The questions you ask are interesting. I don't have experience in medical research. If you have 1000 cases of pois perhaps it can be difficult to compile but at least we can avoid false results inherent to online forms the way you have done this.

« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 07:05:34 by martin88 »