Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)

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Offline Limejuice

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6800 on: 19/02/2010 14:17:21 »
I haven't tried the medication yet.  Currently I'm on vacation and will return Sunday night - I might try it then (don't want to risk spoiling a vaca)

I do have the meds and am ready to roll though!

Thanks!

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6801 on: 19/02/2010 14:22:17 »
-just want to report there is a mushroom (Lion's Mane or Hericium Erinaceus) sold by several popular brands to enhance cognitive function (nerve growth factor stimulant).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758067

-my trial with phosphatidylserine didn't bring relief. Only a very small improvement (slightly nerve tonic).
Fenugreek was more effective (30% improvement for POIS), but with inconsistent results.
Appetite was increased a lot on it, and sexual frequency was increased which I don't like.

-good I didn't see the endo yet, I'll be able to ask for a progesterone test. Norethisterone seems to be androgenic and anti estrogenic (source: BIAM).

-also I realized I have a dental product in the mouth (Bisphenol-A) to replace a broken teeth, since before POIS. It is a well known endocrine disruptor. Dental association say it's ok but some scientists think it can be detrimental to the sexual function in human because extremely small doses are causing damage in rats.
WHO wrote a long paper on endocrine disruptors (pdf on their site)
It can be a cause for undescended testicle too (I didn't have this).

Endocrine disruptors:
http://www.sph.emory.edu/PEHSU/html/exposures/endocrine.htm
« Last Edit: 19/02/2010 14:35:32 by martin88 »

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Offline wooder

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6802 on: 20/02/2010 17:18:07 »
did you get injections demo

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6803 on: 20/02/2010 18:49:20 »

wooder, injections worked poorly. As my endo explained, they "spike" the system, causing a rush of testosterone and then a depletion. Patches deliver T smoothly, 24/7, which mimics the way testosterone works in our bodies naturally.

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Offline Ironyman

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6804 on: 20/02/2010 21:10:42 »
Hello every one, I also have this curse..i remember the time and date when i got it. I was 15 years old, and i was (lol) masterbating when BAM i had a panic attack. I had no idea what the **** was happening. In my mind i thought i was dying...and from that point on and 4 years later i still have POIS.



I mean, i still have sex i don't have ED or anything..OK here are the symptoms i get after the "dance of death" if you wanna call it that...

I have Brain Fog 24/7 i mean that sh1t doesn't go away....only for a few seconds after i orgasm and then it comes back..I've learned how to live with it tho.

Mental & physical exhaustion i can still function, but not the way i want to.

Just a wile back i had depression for the fact that i have this sh1t and it ain't getting better..depression is gone BTW no meds!!!

I have low confidence or i just don't care about stuff anymore, i hate life and i envy every one that is not going trough the pain I'm going through etc..

Since the first day i had POIS stress and anxiety started creeping in my life, anxiety is gone but stress is always there. For about 3 years i had no idea what i had, i thought i had a brain tumor, testicular cancer, insanity, depression, i don't know whats worse having this or not knowing what i had.

This is all for now if yall have any questions, i am happy to answer them.


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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6805 on: 20/02/2010 22:01:37 »
Ironyman, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!




Here are some POIS resources which may be helpful to you:

Our new POIS Information Website, built by "mat780", is here:
http://sites.google.com/site/POISwebsite/

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBxAUC9k1g

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only formal medical investigation on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. Dave Schweitzer, MD.

There are 2 ways to get it: (1) if you want a PDF copy, send me a Private Message (PM) with your regular email address (use "AT" instead of "@" ) and I'll send you back the PDF. Or, if you prefer, (2) I can simply reply with a Private Message (no regular email needed) and provide you with a simple text version embedded in your PM.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around my name, i.e., "demografx".


New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition - that POIS has scientific underpinnings and that POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapist community. This can help fight the immediate reaction of some: IT'S NOT "ALL IN OUR HEADS"!

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum for 3 years, which has attracted over 150 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, plus well over 500,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!
« Last Edit: 20/02/2010 22:09:43 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6806 on: 20/02/2010 22:03:20 »

Ironyman, this post will help you find information about POIS that we have already discussed, by tailoring a Google search to this forum:


SEARCH THE FORUM WITH GOOGLE

We have an overwhelming amount of data: 3 years' worth of posts (over 7,000 posts!) from 150+ Forum members, and an additional 150 POIS sufferers found elsewhere on the Internet by Member B_Jim.

In the Google search box, type
whatever-it-is-you're-interested-in-finding-out[space]POIS[space]site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

for example, I tried
demografx POIS site:http://thenakedscientists.com/

and 1,000+ results came up for "demografx" within the Forum.

be careful with spaces (you can use them before the word "site") and no-spaces (everything after the word "site")

Google even provides you results with the Message# for each result. But Message #'s do change, so be patient and look for the approximate Message#.
« Last Edit: 20/02/2010 22:05:36 by demografx »

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Offline GoingCrazy

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6807 on: 21/02/2010 04:50:39 »
Hello every one, I also have this curse..i remember the time and date when i got it. I was 15 years old, and i was (lol) masterbating when BAM i had a panic attack. I had no idea what the **** was happening. In my mind i thought i was dying...and from that point on and 4 years later i still have POIS.



I mean, i still have sex i don't have ED or anything..OK here are the symptoms i get after the "dance of death" if you wanna call it that...

I have Brain Fog 24/7 i mean that sh1t doesn't go away....only for a few seconds after i orgasm and then it comes back..I've learned how to live with it tho.

Mental & physical exhaustion i can still function, but not the way i want to.

Just a wile back i had depression for the fact that i have this sh1t and it ain't getting better..depression is gone BTW no meds!!!

I have low confidence or i just don't care about stuff anymore, i hate life and i envy every one that is not going trough the pain I'm going through etc..

Since the first day i had POIS stress and anxiety started creeping in my life, anxiety is gone but stress is always there. For about 3 years i had no idea what i had, i thought i had a brain tumor, testicular cancer, insanity, depression, i don't know whats worse having this or not knowing what i had.

This is all for now if yall have any questions, i am happy to answer them.



I can relate to pretty much all of your info.  Mine also happenned suddenly

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Offline prism

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6808 on: 21/02/2010 11:27:27 »
Ironyman,
Im sure any good local neurologist in the US (if your from there) will know and be able to talk to you about the Cerebrolysin [mod edit - cerebrolysin is illegal to import into the United States] drug and its properties, whether you are suitable candidate for it.

There may be a preferable better US equilvant. You're 19 years old right?
Dont jump in and start talking drugs you havent been advised to.
Dont jump in and start talking drugs you havent been advised to.
I wrote it twice because its important.
The US has the best experts in the world (not russia, no disrespect).

Google some neurologists, phone/write to them, get tests done.
Google some endocrinologists, get tests done.
There's a long list of things to be tested for on below
speak to experts and if your going to try cerebrolysin [mod edit - cerebrolysin is illegal to import into the United States] you can be expertly monitored as you do. they'd be able to inject it properly etc.
thanks to pedro though, for giving his story.

I have an appointment with a supposedly very good Dr who specializes in Thyroid/Adrenal, hormones and anti-aging. I want to get the below tests done prior to my consultation.

Can anyone think of anything else I should be getting tested and when would be best to have the collection done. Day 1, Day 2 after O

Thanks.

Blood Test
===========
Total+Free/Bio Testosterone
LH+FSH
Estradiol(E2)
SHBG
Prolactin
DHEA
Costisol
IGF-1
Progetesterone
Dht,
TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3
Magnesium

(+ adrenaline
crp)?

Saliva Test
===========
Cortisol (Morning, noon, evening, night)
Estriol, Estradiol, Eestrone,
Progesterone
Testosterone
DHEA

Neurotransmitter Test
=====================
Serotonin
Acetylcholine
Dopamine
GABA
Histamine

« Last Edit: 21/02/2010 23:55:10 by demografx »

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Offline prism

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6809 on: 21/02/2010 12:06:29 »
On a lighter note,
Ive wondered, how do people pronounce POIS?
Is it like 'po-is', or sounding like 'poise'?

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6810 on: 21/02/2010 12:55:03 »
And I also don't wish to increase the dose, yet, which keeps me at low-normal.
my T is also at low normal and I have severe POIS. I'm wondering if I can have an erratic T secretion, maybe T is not what it should be during the night. I don't have a refreshing sleep during POIS. Maybe we need something like a 24h T test, or a constant monitoring test during sleep.

Quote
In elderly males, the coordinate release of LH and testosterone became asynchronous despite normal serum levels of these hormones....

Our findings suggest that in middle-aged men, less pulsatile testosterone and more LH are secreted at night than in young men, with disruption of the association between testosterone rhythm and REM sleep. The decline in nocturnal testosterone secretion appears to involve a combination of testicular and pituitary hypogonadism.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14951476

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Offline Guthrie

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6811 on: 21/02/2010 14:08:10 »
Good question!  I don't think it's ever been really discussed on this forum.  For myself, I have always pronounced it P-O-I-S (saying the name of each letter, as in the pronunciation of 'TNT'--I suppose both POIS and TNT can have harmful 'explosive' properties!)


On a lighter note,
Ive wondered, how do people pronounce POIS?
Is it like 'po-is', or sounding like 'poise'?

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Offline prism

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6812 on: 21/02/2010 18:39:08 »
Good question!  I don't think it's ever been really discussed on this forum.  For myself, I have always pronounced it P-O-I-S (saying the name of each letter, as in the pronunciation of 'TNT'--I suppose both POIS and TNT can have harmful 'explosive' properties!)


On a lighter note,
Ive wondered, how do people pronounce POIS?
Is it like 'po-is', or sounding like 'poise'?

bit long winded though. like it's a word too shameful too say out loud,
like that country song D-I-V-O-R-C-E.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6813 on: 21/02/2010 19:00:26 »

I pronounce it like "noise" but it's up to you.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6814 on: 21/02/2010 19:33:44 »
And I also don't wish to increase the dose, yet, which keeps me at low-normal.
my T is also at low normal and I have severe POIS. I'm wondering if I can have an erratic T secretion, maybe T is not what it should be during the night. I don't have a refreshing sleep during POIS. Maybe we need something like a 24h T test, or a constant monitoring test during sleep.

Quote
In elderly males, the coordinate release of LH and testosterone became asynchronous despite normal serum levels of these hormones....

Our findings suggest that in middle-aged men, less pulsatile testosterone and more LH are secreted at night than in young men, with disruption of the association between testosterone rhythm and REM sleep. The decline in nocturnal testosterone secretion appears to involve a combination of testicular and pituitary hypogonadism.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14951476

Martin, excellent point! 10mg Androderm T-patch daily brought me within normal range. Which helped my POIS, but I wanted more (greedy me  [;D])...so I asked for a 50% increase to 15mg - and THAT worked much better!

I asked for the increase because I experimented and took 15mg when POIS started, and that helped.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6815 on: 21/02/2010 23:08:51 »

No, I am on the patches now and in the forseeable future. My body simply does not manufacture enough on it's own. I will be re-tested soon.

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6816 on: 22/02/2010 00:38:21 »
Martin, excellent point! 10mg Androderm T-patch daily brought me within normal range. Which helped my POIS, but I wanted more (greedy me  [;D])...so I asked for a 50% increase to 15mg - and THAT worked much better!

I asked for the increase because I experimented and took 15mg when POIS started, and that helped.
Demo, I agree, low normal levels are not enough!
Everybody is saying this to me ((except my doc).
Are you wearing the patch 24h/day ?

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6817 on: 22/02/2010 03:59:59 »
Martin, yes I am.

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Offline acronym

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6818 on: 22/02/2010 12:21:49 »
Attention John21 - RE: B12
"Is there some other method you could use to get the homocystine levels down? I suppose maybe not, as you would have been advised. Are you sure it is 10 mg injection and not 10 mcg?"

John - Sorry I misread the label, it actually works out to be 5mg per injection. Yes this is high. I was on 2.5mg previously, but have not noticed any more benefit from the higher dose. I am near the end of my current lot and definitely notice it is not as effective when I first got them so the potency does degrade even though I keep it in the fridge.
A high level of blood serum homocysteine is a reasonably strong risk factor for cardiovascular disease (degrades and inhibits the formation of artery). I dont think there is a lot out there that directly targets high homocystine levels. It is not something that most people would normally get tested for and it would not surprise me if most doctors are ignorant of it. Actually I think Melatonin was supposed to help reduce it. I am also on and off that to help with sleep, which has been good for me. From what I gather homocystine levels dont fluctuate much so I dont think you could corelate it to pois. It certainly might aggravate the condition butI dont think it explains it...IMO. I think its a case of the B12 helping with symptoms.

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Offline acronym

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6819 on: 22/02/2010 13:09:13 »
-my trial with phosphatidylserine didn't bring relief. Only a very small improvement (slightly nerve tonic).
Fenugreek was more effective (30% improvement for POIS), but with inconsistent results.
Appetite was increased a lot on it, and sexual frequency was increased which I don't like.

-good I didn't see the endo yet, I'll be able to ask for a progesterone test. Norethisterone seems to be androgenic and anti estrogenic (source: BIAM).

Martin88
I have been using phosphatidylserine and I also have to report disappointment..also just the slightest improvement. I was 50% strength. I had tried it back in the late 90s and noticed a cognitive boost with a different brand that I could get anymore.
Fenugreek I tried and was very impressed the first week but its effect faded after that. I have not tried it for quite a while. I would have loved to have gotten an appetite boost.

Good luck with your endo. I hope you find him/her less closed minded than mine have been. It was great find by Isitme or Guthrie about that article on that guy who took Norethisterone. It could be something. Progesterone is considered to be predominantly a female specific hormone....but is also plays a role in endocrinology of men but is not something that I expect would be checked much by doctors in men (I haven't). Something like this hormone could help to account for why pois is overwhelming a male issue.
I just checked and it seems that DHEA operates on different biochemical pathway to progesterone even though both are connected to testosterone. Pregnenolone is one step further back still. It doesn't explain why Demo gets great pois relief with testosterone which is created further along the process from progesterone. Also from an article I read someone who had a vasectomy should have lower progesterone levels.

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Offline acronym

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6820 on: 22/02/2010 13:44:50 »
Quote from: martin88
Demo, I agree, low normal levels are not enough!
Everybody is saying this to me ((except my doc).
Are you wearing the patch 24h/day ?
[/quote
You will need to find an enlightend doctor to assist you with 'low normal levels'. A sports medico or anti-aging medico would likely be better than an endo or regular GP/MD. I had symptoms of low testosterone for years and and got low readings. I was told I was too young to take TRT (yeah better to take it when you are retired than during the peak years of your life) or that I was low but still just in the normal range (thats fine ..you are with 95% of the male population....no I'm in the bottom 5% of the bell curve) It was only after many years that I had a doc who measured my free T levels that where quite low, who finally did something about it. Make sure your Endo requests 'free testosterone' test. While TRT has not cured pois for me, I definitely feel better for it.
As I was lead to believe, the normal ranges one sees on pathology reports are statistically based on the results of past patient blood tests. This would mean the 'normal' range would be skewed on the low side because the majority of T tests would be performed on men who are fatigued & not feeling well and are visiting their doctor and not strapping fit healthy guys who have no need to visit a doctor. If your girlfriend goes to the doctor to request estrogen for birth control, she's out in 5 with a script, but when it comes to testostene...

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6821 on: 22/02/2010 16:03:37 »

Acronym, interesting. Is the quote under Martin's yours or someone else's?
« Last Edit: 22/02/2010 19:08:51 by demografx »

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Offline acronym

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6822 on: 22/02/2010 21:44:27 »
Hi Demo
In response to your post above. It's my post, its just that I logged in using IE and not Firefox browser, and there is a problem with java on my IE so when I clicked on link to post it did not seem to work.
Also you asked me a question a month back on how much teestosterone I was on. I am on rougly 7-10mg per day. I still use injections. I use sustanon100 instead of sustanon250 and take more frequent injections. Definitely more frequent lower doses is better. I tried the creme and I just did not seem to get the same benefit plus got more hair loss with with it. I have not tried the patches or implants.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6823 on: 22/02/2010 23:42:17 »
Acronym, speaking just for myself, patches are a great deal better for me, although I only tried injections 1-2X per month. My endo doesn't care much for injections because of the "spiking", an unsteady up and down of T in the system. But I certainly can't say what's right in your case.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6824 on: 22/02/2010 23:59:24 »
Norethisterone and cancer - dead link: someone just PM'd me to let me know there was an error in the original link, so I corrected it and I am re- posting it below.

I'm not sure what this means as to the potential relationship between norethisterone and cancer(no human studies done), but I thought I would post this link to be on the safe side:
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf

edit: also not sure how this affects progesterone

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Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6825 on: 23/02/2010 01:12:18 »
Martin88
I have been using phosphatidylserine and I also have to report disappointment..also just the slightest improvement. I was 50% strength. I had tried it back in the late 90s and noticed a cognitive boost with a different brand that I could get anymore.
Fenugreek I tried and was very impressed the first week but its effect faded after that. I have not tried it for quite a while. I would have loved to have gotten an appetite boost.

Good luck with your endo.
Thanks Acronym. I took the Solgar brand for fenugreek and it's effective. Maybe gentian is good for appetite, it's antidepressant also.

My free T was low normal too, but I think T would still be helpful for me.

About progesterone, Yukka was tested low but he doesn't say if it was normal:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg185405#msg185405

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf
interesting document Demo.

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Offline silverandcol

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6826 on: 23/02/2010 04:08:38 »
damn i just had an NE after weeks of celibacy ><.  i wonder if the pois effects would be less from a NE.  I never found out though because I always that I might as well masturbate, if I was going to get pois anyways.  Anyone experience less pois symptoms from NE?  and how do u guys stop it?  usually i drink some water before i sleep, but im sick this week and did not want to wake up in middle of night, needed full sleep to heal.  but i guess it backfired.

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Offline demografx

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Offline mellivora

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6828 on: 23/02/2010 11:03:32 »
Quote
I'm not sure what this means as to the potential relationship between norethisterone and cancer(no human studies done), but I thought I would post this link to be on the safe side:
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf

Thanks for reposting this link Demo. It's obviously a very important potential risk to be aware of. Dr Dexter reported in his paper that Merck, the manufacturers of the drug, confirmed there were no known harmful side effects of norethisterone in (human) males. In the light of the National Toxicology Program's conclusions that you linked to, one is left wondering about long-term usage and its important to be aware of both reports.

(It should also be said that lots and lots of substances have been found to have carcinogenic effects, including many substances found in everyday foodstuffs and even chlorine that is used to treat drinking water. The carcinogenic risk from such substances seems to depend a lot on the concentration of that substance in the body which can accumulate over time with long-term use/ingestion. I don't know how the carcinogenic risk of norethisterone would compare to say a substance found in shampoo or any of a host of other apparently carcinogenic substances we ingest everyday. Tea can have carcinogenic and anti-cancer properties! It's a minefield!

I guess it's up to the individual to assess what an acceptable level of risk is but the information available to make that decision seems to be difficult to interpret and sometimes conflicting).

Incidentally, if anyone wants an idea of the range of carcinogens we encounter everyday you can start with this google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=carcinogen+everyday+food&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

 
« Last Edit: 23/02/2010 12:29:30 by mellivora »

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Offline mellivora

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6829 on: 23/02/2010 14:36:53 »
edit: also not sure how this affects progesterone

Further to my post above, if norethisterone is a synthetic version of progesterone and is carcinogenic, one might also expect naturally occuring progesterone to be carcinogenic and that does indeed seem to be the case!! (though not necessarily proven in humans)
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+carcinogenic&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Progesterone also has anti-cancer properties!:
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+inhibits+cancer&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Which just goes to show how careful you need to be when assessing risks of chemicals! This MAY mean that norethisterone is no more carcinogenic than the progesterone produced by a normal body and might even have anti-cancer properties too!
« Last Edit: 23/02/2010 14:41:09 by mellivora »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6830 on: 23/02/2010 17:47:50 »

Fascinating, B_Jim!!

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6831 on: 23/02/2010 17:55:14 »
My imperfect cure

Yesterday was Day Zero, and with more stress, I wasn't feeling great. I enrolled in cardiac rehab exercises, and I could only do half of what I did last time. I briefly napped late afternoon and that helped.

But today is "Day 1" and I do feel great. Which has NEVER happened before my treatment. And this has been consistent for over a year now.

So, even when my cure is not optimal at any given incident - it is a GIANT improvement over my old POIS life of 30+ years. I am very fortunate, and I thank this forum.

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Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6832 on: 23/02/2010 21:39:37 »
about progesterone as dangerous, remember that hundreds of millions of people have been taking it for the last 20 years on a daily basis for birth control and many other things.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6833 on: 23/02/2010 21:59:20 »


about progesterone as dangerous, remember that hundreds of millions of people have been taking it for the last 20 years on a daily basis for birth control and many other things.



lauracostis: Women or men?
« Last Edit: 24/02/2010 00:02:45 by demografx »

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Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6834 on: 23/02/2010 22:08:30 »
Demo,
I'm wondering if you have had your homocystine levels checked? I am contemplating a connection between it and POIS. For one thing I belileve it can be depleted by stress, and it seems to be stressful events that have typically ushered in POIS for many people. You have had heart trouble, and there is a direct link between low  B12 and heart disease. Here is a list of potential troubles from low B12:

Quote
Symptoms Which Might Indicate a B12 Deficiency

Vitamin B12 deficiency can cause unusual neurological symptoms such as tremor, gait disturbance, severe pain, and can mimic MS (multiple sclerosis) or even Parkinsonís Syndrome. The physical signs and symptoms can often mimic other diseases and the diagnosis is frequently missed. An excellent book on the topic is: Could it Be B12? An Epidemic of Misdiagnosis by Sally M. Pacholok, R.N. and Jeffrey J Stuart, D.O. (1) B12 deficiency damages the myelin sheath around the nerve fibers, this is a soft fatty insulating material which is also damaged in demyelinating diseases such as multiple sclerosis.

Mental Changes:

Irritability, apathy, sleepiness, paranoia, personality changes, depression (including post-partum depression), memory loss, dementia, cognitive dysfunction or deterioration, fuzzy thinking, psychosis, dementia, hallucinations, violent behavior, in children; autistic behavior, developmental delay.

Neurological Signs and Symptoms:

Abnormal sensations (pain, tingling, and/or numbness of legs, arms trunk or anywhere),diminished sense of touch, pain or temperature (may mimic diabetic neuropathy Charcot foot), loss of position sense, weakness, clumsiness, tremor, any symptoms which may mimic parkinson's or multiple sclerosis, spasticity of muscles, incontinence, paralysis, vision changes, damage to optic nerve (optic neuritis).

Vascular Problems:

Atherosclerotic vascular disease is increased by B12 deficiency including; Coronary artery disease, TIAs, CVA, heart attack, heart failure, claudication, all associated with elevated homocysteine levels caused by B12 deficiency.

The "abonrmal sensations" could relate to your fingertips problem. I think it is great that testosterone is helping you, but I am wondering if B12 might be the root cause.

What do you think? The symptoms do line up with many of our complaints. 

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6835 on: 23/02/2010 22:18:25 »
Norethisterone/progesterone


Quote
I'm not sure what this means as to the potential relationship between norethisterone and cancer(no human studies done), but I thought I would post this link to be on the safe side:
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf


Thanks for reposting this link Demo. It's obviously a very important potential risk to be aware of. Dr Dexter reported in his paper that Merck, the manufacturers of the drug, confirmed there were no known harmful side effects of norethisterone in (human) males. In the light of the National Toxicology Program's conclusions that you linked to, one is left wondering about long-term usage and its important to be aware of both reports.

(It should also be said that lots and lots of substances have been found to have carcinogenic effects, including many substances found in everyday foodstuffs and even chlorine that is used to treat drinking water. The carcinogenic risk from such substances seems to depend a lot on the concentration of that substance in the body which can accumulate over time with long-term use/ingestion. I don't know how the carcinogenic risk of norethisterone would compare to say a substance found in shampoo or any of a host of other apparently carcinogenic substances we ingest everyday. Tea can have carcinogenic and anti-cancer properties! It's a minefield!

I guess it's up to the individual to assess what an acceptable level of risk is but the information available to make that decision seems to be difficult to interpret and sometimes conflicting).

Incidentally, if anyone wants an idea of the range of carcinogens we encounter everyday you can start with this google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=carcinogen+everyday+food&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
 

edit: also not sure how this affects progesterone


Further to my post above, if norethisterone is a synthetic version of progesterone and is carcinogenic, one might also expect naturally occuring progesterone to be carcinogenic and that does indeed seem to be the case!! (though not necessarily proven in humans)
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+carcinogenic&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Progesterone also has anti-cancer properties!:
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+inhibits+cancer&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Which just goes to show how careful you need to be when assessing risks of chemicals! This MAY mean that norethisterone is no more carcinogenic than the progesterone produced by a normal body and might even have anti-cancer properties too!



Mellivora, many thanks for your sober reflection on this complicated subject!
« Last Edit: 24/02/2010 06:45:10 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6836 on: 23/02/2010 23:48:34 »

Demo,

I'm wondering if you have had your homocystine levels checked?...wondering if B12 might be the root cause...What do you think?...... The symptoms do line up with many of our complaints. 


Makes perfect sense, John.

But at this time, I'm frankly overwhelmed with medical tests, prescriptions (added a huge amount of new ones!), cardiac rehab, re-testing and re-starting testosterone treatment, etc. following open-heart surgery.

Cardiac rehab yesterday recommended 2-3 new medical ideas....and I just can't deal with it all at the same time.

But I will. I put your suggestions in my personal follow up file.

Thank you very much!
« Last Edit: 23/02/2010 23:56:43 by demografx »

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Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6837 on: 24/02/2010 07:06:37 »
If we look steroid hormones synthesis :



We have Demo's succes with testo on the right,
Agjchs 's succes with DHEA right side,
scientific study succes with progesterone on the left side.

But progesterone can be converted to the right side by hydroxyprogesterone/androstenedione pathway if needed (I suppose in Pois).

Some of us find stress (cortisol) makes the Pois stronger, and some guys are healed with Relora (less cortisol, more DHEA).




demo look at bjims flow chart, progesterone can be converted into "any" of the final steroids in males and females. progesterone is a nessary precursor to aldosterone. if your body doesnt want to retain any more salt it can make any male or female anabolic steroid it pleases.  demo you have low t, your body would just convert it to testosterone. "show me a chemical that didnt cause cancer in rats." the chemists i know joke about that all the time, we eat artificial sweateners that cause grotesque cancer in rats. the synthetic progesterone prescribed was a pro-testosterone pathway steroid. progesterone is not a female hormone, it is a human and mammalian steroid. if you are a male and you do not make progesterone, you will not make aldosterone, with out aldosterone you will not be able to retain sodium used to filter your kidneys, your kidneys recycle the total volume of all your blood every 15-20 minutes, you would loose all your sodium ions very quickly with out aldosterone. if you have to much aldosterone in your system your body will use potassium in your kidneys to piss out excess sodium. progesterone is "vital" to human life, as for a cancer causing agent? no more than testosterone. anabolic steroids job are to cause tissue growth by replicating cells.  every day your body produces millions of cancer cells by accident while replicating. if your white blood cells cannot kill them fast enough, they will replicate themselves, then you have a problem. as far as we know progesterone does not directly affect the growth of tissue in males, only via proxy-pathway to testosterone.

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Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6838 on: 24/02/2010 07:52:42 »
when i look at that hormone cascade chart above all i see is that progesterone is there to give a way out if your two main chemical pathways are blocked. when pregnenolone goes to convert to (hydroxypregnenolone and then to DHEA) if these two pathways are blocked by lack of cofactors or coenzymes the hormone pathway will stop short of it final product.  if the body does not get the final products it wants it will start to produce more pregnenolone, pregnenolone will then convert to(hydroxypregnenolone and then to DHEA). this cycle will continue intill the body gets what it wants, building up more and more of the transition steroids (that have no use). they are irreversible compounds and will become toxic in the body. while this is happening the alternate bipass steroid pathway through progesterone will be taking place very slowly.  by the time the body has produced the desired steroids through the prosterone bipass there will be a crap ton of irreversible transition steroids causing havock in your body.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6839 on: 24/02/2010 19:09:03 »

To Lauracostis, B_Jim, and Mellivora

I'm delighted that the issue of carcinogenic relationships has been discussed so thoroughly by the 3 of you!

Thank you very much!

Demo
« Last Edit: 24/02/2010 19:42:51 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6840 on: 24/02/2010 19:16:44 »
In my personal investigations for a testosterone "cure" I went through the tortures of the damned with cancer possibilities. I finally realized: so did the medical and research communities! No consensus.

Finally, I went with the New England Journal of Medicine's findings that prostate cancer and testosterone were not related, and a highly regarded personal endo who agreed.

But I'm sure there are medical professionals out there who still believe in the carcinogenicity of testosterone! In fact, even my endo and other NEJM "believers" still require regular PSA's and digital exams...just in case?  [;D]


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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6841 on: 24/02/2010 19:31:06 »

[From list of John's B12 deficiency characteristics]

The "abnormal sensations" could relate to your fingertips problem.


John, thank you, this is the only time in 30+ years of "fingertip sensation agony" that any explanation ever made any sense, including that from my self-named "King Of Dermatology", who first tried to prove that my symptom couldn't be true (I used to break out with dermatitis upon POIS onset, so he made me prove it by coming in for personal exam the very next POIS onset, which I did, and proved The King wrong!)...The King finally gave me a useless Rx for a medicated hand lotion! I should've charged him!![;D]


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Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6842 on: 24/02/2010 21:14:25 »
Demo, I don't know if you would want to try taking a dosage of B12 before O to test it out sometime. As far as I can determine there is no danger of taking it if you don't really need it. But of course you should check with your doc for assurance, especially as you are currently on medication. (Sometimes they know things [;D])

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6843 on: 24/02/2010 22:33:48 »

Haha! Sometimes! Yes, great idea, John, l will ask my new GP Monday. Thanks!

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Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6844 on: 24/02/2010 23:07:25 »
if b12 is the problem taking it orally wont help, i have tested almost every vitamin repeatedly with no results, i have sublingual tabs of b12 that are 50x more potent that the recommended daily average. if i have a vitamin deficiency its going to take an injection to get it into my body.  there must be quite a few people on this forum who have been given a b12 shot before.  they usually make you feel good for a couple of days, even if you dont need any b12. b12 is also commonly checked on routine blood tests.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6845 on: 25/02/2010 01:31:45 »

Laurac, I've done extensive blood tests, is there another name for B12-testing/results?

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Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6846 on: 25/02/2010 02:41:12 »

Laurac, I've done extensive blood tests, is there another name for B12-testing/results?
no demo there is not another name for vitamin b12 test that i am aware of. my doctor took my vitamin 12 during the first set of tests she ran on me.
here are my results
 
vitamin b12 (pg/ml)  mine=405   the range was 211-911

these results are from 01/19/08 when i wasnt quite sure if my symptoms were caused by pois, i was be checked because of severe fatigue.
your doctor can most definitely run a vitamin b12 test on you.

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Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6847 on: 25/02/2010 03:13:07 »

Great. Thanks, laurac! I'll ask him Monday when I do my lipid panel.

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Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6848 on: 25/02/2010 03:48:23 »
demo my homocystine levels were in the normal range on the same test also.

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Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6849 on: 25/02/2010 10:23:53 »
Lauracostis,
I think taking B12 with some folic acid helps in it's absorption (I tried it with spinach salad). I find it suprising that it would make a person feel better even if they don't need it.

This
doctor claims the following:
Quote
Testing for the Diagnosis of B12 Deficiency

Most doctors do not test for B12, and even they do a blood test, they do the standard serum B12 which is unreliable.

And here is his the study he references.