[demografx]

daveyboy, no way!
You must be thinking of someone else.  []
Send me the post where you think I said that!

Anyways, I don't think there's just one philosofy, and there's gotta be about 200 ways to meditate!

I don't know why the comment about TM was thrown in to daveyboy's post that I was responding to above, but I do agree with your remark, daveman, re many ("200") forms of meditation. I simply use it to get to sleep!

But my comment to db of "no way" only refers to my feelings about Taoism and POIS - which I would love to be proven wrong about - but for now, after decades of experience (mine and others) - I sincerely believe it's a harmful waste of time in treating POIS. Please note that I am not against Taoism as a philosophical/spiritual path, but only in that one regard: POIS treatment.

[demografx]

Demo, hopefully you can give Hans a chance

OK, ONE chance. Last year he was disruptive, rude and arrogant. No dialogue, only monologue. Dialogue is the purpose of Naked Science Forum. Not pedantry. To go forward, I expect my questions - and others - to be answered, including the one I just asked, and also the ones I asked last year, regarding his actual experiences with POIS sufferers. If these aren't answered soon, it's goodbye.

From what I've seen across the board for the last 3 years here, I'm not really convinced that the "bodybuilders" path in general and ours are on the same scientific wavelength. Near the top of the red-flag list are websites that sell dubious products of untested, nonspecific herbal mixtures and nutrients to their "patients". Quite often out-and-out scams.

[Porke]

Agreed demo, I have also been lured in by the 'hippie cures' for a number of ailments. I can say from experience that most of the 'spiritual' and 'root and herb' approaches is pure crap  []

[demografx]

Thank you, Porke!

[daveman]

Agreed demo, I have also been lured in by the 'hippie cures' for a number of ailments. I can say from experience that most of the 'spiritual' and 'root and herb' approaches is pure crap  []

I think both sides have to be careful about throwing everything into one bag.

Asperin comes from willow bark, progesterone comes from a wild Mexican Yam (a root), many western cures are improvements in concoctions discovered by Brasilian Shamans decades ago.

So science refines and processes cruder materials and studies why they work to dicover newer remedies. But insights, gut feel, intuition and yes, even spirituality have played a big part in opening frontiers.

Science without insight or spirituality without proper direction and application are both useless.

I think that too much in this world, we are looking to spirituality and religion to make things esier they ain't, they just ain't.

[demografx]

I agree with a lot of what you say. My only beef is with the rampant lack of information and studies in the alternative therapy world. And all too often, quack practitioners abound.

I've said it before, if broiled snails can truly cure POIS, I'm all for it. But we've advanced this civilization enough where we don't need to rely on shamans.

[prism]

Just in my case, if "chi" were true, I don't think my testosterone treatment + stimulants would be working. TRT + stimulants are hardly "spiritual"!

I dunno if that tells us anything either way. Technically, if the static field from a portable TV can be changed by type of liquid in its battery then, it could be the same for people, when the electrical nervous system works better with chemicals.

[demografx]

OK, but my electrical nervous system won't work better with  an exorcism []

[lauracostis]

double NE from night before last is taking me to china town, and i aint got no chop sticks! [B)]. i have had pois ten times worse than this before, but when you have a nice long stretch with out pois, you can forget how sick you really are

[daveman]

I agree with a lot of what you say. My only beef is with the rampant lack of information and studies in the alternative therapy world. And all too often, quack practitioners abound.

There's no doubt that there are a huge number of people, especially in the last 10 years or so with the explosion of the new age, that have meditated a couple of times and felt something different. All of a sudden they are experts.

You can't fix bipolar depression with transpersonal psychology alone, nor cancer etc. etc. even if it feels like you can. I don't know how many times I've worked with people that think that meditation and spirituality is going to save their lives.

But with experience you can learn to apply it to see deeper into each situation and make the physical and scientific moves required to get to the bottom of a problem. But there are few of this level of individual. In the end, it boils down to work.

As you say, there is no reason that there should be a lack of studies and support for the effectiveness of an alternate solution, the alternate approach leads to potential solutions, which can then be studied and proven. Like acupuncture for instance.

[daveman]

double NE from night before last is taking me to china town, and i aint got no chop sticks! [B)]. i have had pois ten times worse than this before, but when you have a nice long stretch with out pois, you can forget how sick you really are

Sorry LC, I (we?) know exactly how you feel!! Another long stretch without POIS is on it's way!!
Something you ate maybe, MSG, glutans??

Get well soon.

[FinalPanic]

Just discovered this forum after a chance google, I have for years tried to find any references to this condition and until today had drawn a blank. I recognise most of the described symptoms - headache, intense fatigue, aches, nausea, feeling of bulging/burning eye sockets, feeling hot even when it's freezing cold, cognitive issues. This started for me when I was about 20 - at first the sensations I was feeling after orgasm I would describe to myself as "feeling a bit thick". But after a year or so I ended up with the full roster of symptoms. This has plagued my for over 25 years now - I am married with a family but sex is something I try to limit as much as possible through all manner of devious means. It has been a blight on my life and I actively turned down relationship opportunities as I knew where it would lead - how can you explain 2-3 days of pain and suffering after one of the most pleasurable human activities, and expect genuine understanding. I love sex it's awesome - but I have to abstain as much as I can. I am sat here with a burning headache and slowly dissipating symptoms from some frolics two days ago. The problem is managing the symptoms as it affects my ability to function in the 'normal world'. One night of sex = 3 days of hell. I feel I live a life of silent suffering, but my wife has generally rubbished any suggestion of a problem. I had used to drink heavily and passed off any symptoms as a regular hangover to anybody I met - a sort of denial I guess. I have been to GP's and tried to talk this through but end up down the old anxiety, stress route - often with a leaflet handed over for a self help group for anxiety issues. I do suffer from some anxiety around people - but I never thought it was the cause of this problem. I have tried all manner of ways to manage the symptoms. I always thought that the intense fatigue would be helped by sleep - but early sex and a night of solid sleep makes no difference - it really is like being ill - I thought I had some sort of ME. I can get through a day but try to avoid too much contact with people as I find the symptoms make me feel very self-concious - although I expect I look perfectly normal to whomever I am talking to. I find that a few naps during a bad day can give the feeling of being recharged for about an hour before I slip back.

Is all of this how other posters here feel - does anybody know how common this is? I have read most of the posts on here and it seems over the last couple of years there is still little official recognition, but I suppose this is also a rather embarrassing and not especially 'manly' admission.

After over 25 years to find I am not the only person blighted by such overwhelming symptoms, and perhaps that it is not all in my mind, and that I am not imaging it all is almost enough to move me to tears.

I would like to help to somehow get recognition for this and some way of getting us fixed - is there anything I can offer?

Regards.

[wooder]

I am convinced it is connected to chi

i spent 600 pounds on accupuncture, chinnesse herbs, and accupressure and it was true to say, that this restore degrees of energy to me , especially after O

but the advise of the doc was try and O every 10 days, or once a week and what he did say was if you take up a relationship, be careful( he also said, that at a later date, I would need more accupuncture which may be true, but at the end of the day,  I am just a lucrative revenue stream to him, so he would say that) but there does not seem any danger of that, as knowing all this and the subseqent effects of this  seems to be getting on the way of me getting involved again

cant think why

I also have an autoimmune disease called sarcoidosis which has flared up recently: sure it all connected, years ago I had a kundalini awakening too but that went dormant last year and then all this seem to start

I read the other day, that the cranil fluid is drained when we o and those who over do the old masturbation are risking losing their marbles prmaturley because of said drainage

after 8 days I lost it yesterday not once but twice and now feel very stiff, in the joints and in the back

i exercise regularly and try and not overdo it , avoid alcohol  ocassionally have slipped and binge ocassioally which does not help either

i also meditate a few times a week and take gingko, st johns wort, fish oil and wellmans multi vitamin,and mineral supplement

I am not denying that none of this has not helped, becuase i think it all has

but am convinced it is down to chi and at some level may have been affecting me in some form since my twenties

just seems,like there is no soloution because even in self control we, still have desire to 0

unless we try tantra or kareza

they both seem quite difficult too

life just seems to get harder all the time with age

it's all relative, I could be be in asia

can anyone recommend me a terrific porn filter, web cam blocker etc so I try and help myself a little

[FinalPanic]

Thanks for the welcome B_Jim.

Over the years I have considered many reasons for this unhappy situation, including similar theories to the Chi thing. I have considered that I made same grand error in my youth (started too early), or I am being punished for misdemeanours in a previous life (I don't really believe in such things though), and so the rambling thoughts go on. It has occurred also that maybe I have become so focused on the issue that it is a self fulfilling prophecy, that I am in fact exacerbating the problem by stressing about its onset. I have tried all manner of breathing techniques, rapid hydration all sorts of self considered theories but none has really helped. This forum has now categorically shown me that I am not a lone suffer which is both comfort and cause for concern. Comfort as I can share my experiences, concern as I realise it probably will not magically disappear as I have hoped for years.

The Chi thing about having some sort of energy level that depletes, much as in a video game, reminds me of my thoughts that I have somehow burned out and now normal life experiences simply overload the system with too much stimulus that causes havoc. The system needs a reboot back to full strength and a normal existence, but again I cannot honestly subscribe to this - I think maybe the Chi thing may help more with coping than curing.

Is there any recurring connection between anxieties and pois? Or do others find that they feel generally 100% day to day apart from the pois after orgasm?

I do seem quite sensitive to things that friends cast iron constitutions just throw off.
I am just trying to see any similarities between myself and others for a clearer understanding.

I have already mentioned about me suffering from a certain amount of anxiety and I also seem to sleep poorly and can feel generally tired day to day, but I still function ok (I run a business for instance). My poor sleeping started when I was about 20 - that seemed to bring on anxiety with the distress of being uncomfortably tired at a relatively young age, the pois seemed to build up from that point. Every GP I bothered to see has their own (always the same) order for this though - anxiety causing restless sleep leading to more anxiety and this then explains all my other issues (basically pois). The remedy is to take more exercise, go on holiday etc.

This all kind of follows the depletion theory - but I feel that there is a much more straightforward, albeit currently unknown, answer to pois. It does seem much like the body is turning on itself as a defence mechanism against a threat. But it has beeen interesting to read about dopamine/prolactin balance. I read about this here: http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_and_addiction [nofollow]

I have no real idea who to talk to about this as the first port of call is the local GP and that goes nowhere - anybody managed to get any further with successful outcomes?

[FinalPanic]

Oh and if it is depletion from being overactive sexually - how much do you need to do - surely every porn star and nightclub nympho would be suffering a life of abject hell by now!

[demografx]

double NE from night before last is taking me to china town, and i aint got no chop sticks! [B)]. i have had pois ten times worse than this before, but when you have a nice long stretch with out pois, you can forget how sick you really are

VERY sorry to hear Laurac! Best wishes for a speedy return to POIS-free!!

[prism]

I certainly agree on a poetic level the orgasm is the 'life force'.
Always staggered me how easy it is for reflexologists to detect the level pois suffering. You cant lie to them. biggest regret ever not getting involved with that sooner.

[demografx]

Chi thinking might just be a matter of semantics. My  _energy_ level (which I called "chi" long ago) is now clearly restored _rapidly_ after sex. Because of testosterone sufficiency + a stimulant booster.

In my days of thinking "mysterious life force" (chi), that led me down a narrow path of acupressure, contortive semen-retention methods, herbs, acupuncture, meditation, of which none worked for me. Hormonal bloodtesting and TRT+stimulants were nowhere close to my thinking, yet they proved to be 'miraculous' treatments. For 1 and 1/2 years now, after 30+ years of desperately seeking any and all solutions to no avail.

Chi thinking for POIS is simply too  _restrictive_  in my opinion. I know that the acu/herbal/mystery world works for some, as just mentioned.

But it's a much bigger and more beautiful world out there!

[John21 (OP)]

Oh and if it is depletion from being overactive sexually - how much do you need to do - surely every porn star and nightclub nympho would be suffering a life of abject hell by now!

Yes but POIS may sometimes be caused by overactive sex while premature. Some of us have wondered if it might be due to excessive sex (usually masturbation) during early childhood development, before the system is ready.

[demografx]

FinalPanic, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!




Here are some POIS resources which may be helpful to you:


Our new POIS chatroom (realtime chat). Invite or visit another member(s) there, ANY TIME. We can all get to know each other better:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/POIS/chat

Our new POIS Information Website, built by "mat780", is here:
http://sites.google.com/site/POISwebsite/

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web. This includes remedies that we have tested, and results.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video:

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here.
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only formal medical investigation on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. Dave Schweitzer, MD.

There are 2 ways to get it: (1) if you want a PDF copy, send me a Private Message (PM) with your regular email address (use "AT" instead of "@" ) and I'll send you back the PDF. Or, if you prefer, (2) I can simply reply with a Private Message (no regular email needed) and provide you with a simple text version embedded in your PM.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around my name, i.e., "demografx".


New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition to serving our own informational interests, the resources listed above can be useful for you to show our credibility to the medical world - which often shows little understanding and is sometimes skeptical of our condition: POIS has scientific underpinnings and POIS is not "just another psychological problem" related to sex - to be treated by the psychiatric/psychotherapeutic community. All of this information can greatly help you to fight the immediate reaction of some doctors: so just tell them, "IT'S NOT "ALL IN OUR HEADS"!

Also, it can be helpful when dealing with medical professionals to point out the successful existence of our rapidly growing forum, which has already been referenced in respectable sources such as the British Medical Journal and wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postorgasmic_illness_syndrome

For for over 3 years, our POIS forum has attracted over 150 POIS sufferers worldwide who have posted here, plus over 600,000 page visits. Not bad for a rare malady!