[Prancer]

it's the closest to normal as I've come in the year and a half I've been on this forum.

That's excellent to hear you are getting some relief from your constant POIS. I still don't know if I have constant POIS, but it's possible. I was recently reading through the archives here and discovered that my symptoms are very similar to yours (90% cognitive). I also agree with you that the times when I have a very strong urge to experience orgasm I feel my best. I plan on abstaining starting later this month for as long as possible. I should know then if I have it.

[kurtosis]

Anyway, for the first time in 20 years, I have no noticeable POIS symptoms. I'm taking Gingko, Huperzine and a high-strength b complex with active co-enzymes of b12 and b6. I'm also taking krill oil. The Huperzine seems to have sorted out the eye problem. I didn't take it yesterday morning and the eye control problem was back. 200mcg of it and within 10 minutes it's fixed and my memory is greatly improved. I've had 4 O's in a week with no diminishment in cognitive performance.

Can you elaborate on the specific brand information?

Now Foods coenzymated B-complex. Also have Solgar Megasorb B. The ginkgo and huperzine are both from Source Naturals. All available in the UK.

[lauracostis]

Good post Tony! I have been suspecting Lyme for a long time which includes a severe deficiency of B12.
You give hope.

I was tested for Lyme and it was negative.  However, some tests are not accurate due to the evolution of lyme disease.  My physician went over the lab results with me and we both determined that Lyme disease was not a factor in my case and the very expensive, accurate lab was not ordered.  If you believe Lyme may be responsible for some of your symptoms you can easily get a Lyme test.

[desperate man]

Good post Tony! I have been suspecting Lyme for a long time which includes a severe deficiency of B12.
You give hope.

I was tested for Lyme and it was negative.  However, some tests are not accurate due to the evolution of lyme disease.  My physician went over the lab results with me and we both determined that Lyme disease was not a factor in my case and the very expensive, accurate lab was not ordered.  If you believe Lyme may be responsible for some of your symptoms you can easily get a Lyme test.

"We are told by manufacturers, health departments and clinics that the Lyme ELISA tests are good, useful tests, but in two blinded studies that tested laboratories for accuracy, they failed miserably. Lorie Bakken, MS/MPH, showed in her studies that there was not only inaccuracy and inconsistency between competing laboratories, but also between identical triple samples sent to the same lab. In other words, identical samples often resulted in different results! In the first study, forty-five labs correctly identified the samples only 55% of the time.

In the latest study by the College of American Pathologists, 516 labs were tested. The overall result was terrible! There were almost equal numbers of false positives as false negatives. Overall, the labs were 55% inaccurate. The labs could only give a correct result 45% of the time. You are actually better off to flip a coin!"

I have been bit by those **ckers more than 4 times in my life.I have nearly all the symptoms.Many CFS sufferers have Lyme but have not been diagnosed yet.The last time I went cycling with a friend and got bit by a tic.I asked my friend and he has never had any tic bites while those little bastards find me everytime I go near a forrest.Somehow I attract them but why? Body odour?

[kurtosis]

Good post Tony! I have been suspecting Lyme for a long time which includes a severe deficiency of B12.
You give hope.

I was tested for Lyme and it was negative.  However, some tests are not accurate due to the evolution of lyme disease.  My physician went over the lab results with me and we both determined that Lyme disease was not a factor in my case and the very expensive, accurate lab was not ordered.  If you believe Lyme may be responsible for some of your symptoms you can easily get a Lyme test.

"We are told by manufacturers, health departments and clinics that the Lyme ELISA tests are good, useful tests, but in two blinded studies that tested laboratories for accuracy, they failed miserably. Lorie Bakken, MS/MPH, showed in her studies that there was not only inaccuracy and inconsistency between competing laboratories, but also between identical triple samples sent to the same lab. In other words, identical samples often resulted in different results! In the first study, forty-five labs correctly identified the samples only 55% of the time.

In the latest study by the College of American Pathologists, 516 labs were tested. The overall result was terrible! There were almost equal numbers of false positives as false negatives. Overall, the labs were 55% inaccurate. The labs could only give a correct result 45% of the time. You are actually better off to flip a coin!"

I have been bit by those **ckers more than 4 times in my life.I have nearly all the symptoms.Many CFS sufferers have Lyme but have not been diagnosed yet.The last time I went cycling with a friend and got bit by a tic.I asked my friend and he has never had any tic bites while those little bastards find me everytime I go near a forrest.Somehow I attract them but why? Body odour?

Funny / tragic thing is, if you explained to to your doctor, they'd probably just view it as greater evidence of hypochondria / anxiety.

[Stef]

Hi, Desperate Man, Kurtosis, Lauracostis, and All,

The blood test for Lyme disease is very inaccurate! It doesn't test for the bacteria that causes Lyme disease; rather, it tests for antibodies to the bacteria.

It can take two months or more for these antibodies to show up on a blood test, despite someone being actively infected with Lyme disease (caused by the bite of an infected deer tick, for those of you not familiar).

I live in Connecticut -- "hotbed" of Lyme disease. We have deer everywhere. Lyme, CT is where the disease became known as an emerging infectious disorder several years ago -- hence, the name, Lyme disease. 

My husband is very much an outdoorsman, and has had it three times! Fortunately, he had such a text-book case each time that he was treated (successfully!) without even having a blood test to confirm. Besides feeling miserable, he had the infamous bull's eye rash that can occur at or near the site of the tick bite -- he was lucky, as this rash is absolutely indicative. 
But many people just don't develop that rash.

The treatment is 21 days of the antibiotic, doxycycline.

He now uses proper precaution -- DEET when outdoors in his massive vegetable garden (which is adjacent to woods that are loaded with deer) and a self-check every night.

FYI, he had no idea that he'd been bitten by a tick during any of those three episodes of Lyme disease.  The tick only has to be embedded and engorged on you for 24 hours -- and they're tiny -- so it's very easy to miss them.

At any rate, the blood test is notoriously inaccurate.

It's a two part test -- if the first part, the ELISA test, is positive (a completely non-specific test, which can also be false positive or false negative for a variety of reasons), the lab will automatically perform the second part of the test -- the Western blot. That shows the number of IgG and IgM components that are activated. Based on history and symptoms, Lyme disease can be a suspected diagnosis when there are enough elevations ("bands") of the IgG and IgM antibody levels in the second part of the test.

But -- it's all INACCURATE -- and doctors know that.

If you think there's any chance of Lyme disease -- if you're at risk due to living in an area where deer are abundant, and/or if you have a dog or an outdoor cat (they can bring the ticks into the house -- and they can also become very ill with Lyme disease!) , your doctor should take your concern very seriously.  Untreated Lyme disease can have severe consequences.

Just want to emphasize -- Lyme disease and POIS have nothing to do with each other. 

Also, true chronic fatigue syndrome (there are definite criteria) has nothing to do with POIS.  Go to http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=search2 for specific information about chronic fatigue syndrome.

By the way, Desperate Man -- I have a suspicion that ticks are attracted to certain aspects of an individual's body chemistry, as are mosquitoes.  I've never had a tick bite, despite being outdoors in MY garden all summer.  Yet, the mosquitoes gravitate to me. If there is one mosquito -- it will find me and land!  However, they ignore my husband completely, unlike the ticks.

Kurtosis -- re: your statement about explaining to the physician about the inaccuracy of Lyme disease testing:
"Funny / tragic thing is, if you explained to your doctor, they'd probably just view it as greater evidence of hypochondria / anxiety."  --

I agree with you, just for the record.  Great point!  And pathetically sad, also.


Stef

[lauracostis]

Good post Tony! I have been suspecting Lyme for a long time which includes a severe deficiency of B12.
You give hope.

I was tested for Lyme and it was negative.  However, some tests are not accurate due to the evolution of lyme disease.  My physician went over the lab results with me and we both determined that Lyme disease was not a factor in my case and the very expensive, accurate lab was not ordered.  If you believe Lyme may be responsible for some of your symptoms you can easily get a Lyme test.

"We are told by manufacturers, health departments and clinics that the Lyme ELISA tests are good, useful tests, but in two blinded studies that tested laboratories for accuracy, they failed miserably. Lorie Bakken, MS/MPH, showed in her studies that there was not only inaccuracy and inconsistency between competing laboratories, but also between identical triple samples sent to the same lab. In other words, identical samples often resulted in different results! In the first study, forty-five labs correctly identified the samples only 55% of the time.

In the latest study by the College of American Pathologists, 516 labs were tested. The overall result was terrible! There were almost equal numbers of false positives as false negatives. Overall, the labs were 55% inaccurate. The labs could only give a correct result 45% of the time. You are actually better off to flip a coin!"

I have been bit by those **ckers more than 4 times in my life.I have nearly all the symptoms.Many CFS sufferers have Lyme but have not been diagnosed yet.The last time I went cycling with a friend and got bit by a tic.I asked my friend and he has never had any tic bites while those little bastards find me everytime I go near a forrest.Somehow I attract them but why? Body odour?

I believe there is a lab in California that does a very accurate Lyme test, however, it is very expensive.  The ELISA checks for antibodies on a lab clone of the borreliosis bacteria.  The problem is that the wild species of borreliosis have quickly evolved making many of the antigens on the lab strain irrelevant to the actual antigens on the wild strains.

[desperate man]

Just had O 15 minutes ago.Surprisingly the ejaculation felt good then immediately then muscle weakness,hand arms legs shaking.It has settled down but I still feel pain in every muscle and weakness,fatigue.Some brain fog.
I know a guy who is very smart.Doctors call him when they're unable to diagnose/treat a patient who has rare diseases like CFS/ME he finds the root cause of the problems and cures the patients.
He also acts like Dr. House but not because it's fun,because he has REAL Asperger's.Won't answer my PM-s tried it hundreds of times.On another forum he answered this (speaking about POIS):

"Just had a great conversation with one of the actually researchers who have published papers on pub med about Dopamine and RDS as well as gene expression. The reason why people keep relapsing is due to gene expression in the DRD2 on the A1 allele which causes a down regulation of receptors to dopamine which encourages high risk behavior to stimulate dopamine response. I am working on finding a solution to these equation with I may have come up with. The research present may also help people post finasteride with drawl as well."

"75% of Asian have the gene present of the drd2 which is associated with addictive behavior. This goes back to reward deficiency syndrome and low dopamine levels or worse off dopamine resistance."

I'm pretty sure I have this reward deficiency because I have multiple addictions and it does feel like I'm only doing it to get that "high" feeling which is a somewhat normal dopamine level that I can only enjoy for like 10 seconds after an orgasm and I return to the original low dopamine state with fatigue,brain fog and muscle weakness.
Well this is all.I will start abstaining again.Right now nausea,panicky feeling,pressure in head.I feel like I have to throw up.

edit: 2 hours passed.Today I realized and accepted why some people choose vasectomy.I am severly fatigued after the O and bed ridden.

[Nightingale]

Anyway, for the first time in 20 years, I have no noticeable POIS symptoms. I'm taking Gingko, Huperzine and a high-strength b complex with active co-enzymes of b12 and b6. I'm also taking krill oil. The Huperzine seems to have sorted out the eye problem. I didn't take it yesterday morning and the eye control problem was back. 200mcg of it and within 10 minutes it's fixed and my memory is greatly improved. I've had 4 O's in a week with no diminishment in cognitive performance.

kurtosis, I am following your strategy.  I have bought all the supplements you have mentioned and have begun taking them mostly with the doses suggested by the labels.  You've mentioned that you take a more that the suggested dose, saying you take probably twice what I do.

Could you list the doses of each specific supplement/herb/vitamin that you are taking, so that I can replicate your regimen?  I don't have access to the same B-complexes you do, so I'd love to know the doses of the particular items of importance in those pills.  You also mention "active co-enzymes" of b6 and b12, and I dont know what those are.  I have been supplementing b6 and b12 separately in addition to taking a B-complex.  Otherwise I have all the other items you'v mentioned you use

I saw you have had great success in reducing your mental symptoms and I would love to have the same results!

Thanks!

[kurtosis]

Anyway, for the first time in 20 years, I have no noticeable POIS symptoms. I'm taking Gingko, Huperzine and a high-strength b complex with active co-enzymes of b12 and b6. I'm also taking krill oil. The Huperzine seems to have sorted out the eye problem. I didn't take it yesterday morning and the eye control problem was back. 200mcg of it and within 10 minutes it's fixed and my memory is greatly improved. I've had 4 O's in a week with no diminishment in cognitive performance.

kurtosis, I am following your strategy.  I have bought all the supplements you have mentioned and have begun taking them mostly with the doses suggested by the labels.  You've mentioned that you take a more that the suggested dose, saying you take probably twice what I do.

Could you list the doses of each specific supplement/herb/vitamin that you are taking, so that I can replicate your regimen?  I don't have access to the same B-complexes you do, so I'd love to know the doses of the particular items of importance in those pills.  You also mention "active co-enzymes" of b6 and b12, and I dont know what those are.  I have been supplementing b6 and b12 separately in addition to taking a B-complex.  Otherwise I have all the other items you'v mentioned you use

I saw you have had great success in reducing your mental symptoms and I would love to have the same results!

Thanks!

Coenzymated b vitamins include methylcobalamin (active b12) and pyramidal 5 phosphate (p5p, active b6). These are available in a b complex from solgar and Now Foods. The solgar one has some non-active form of the vitamins. The Now Foods one doesn't. I find the active coenzymated forms easier to take. With the non-coenzymated forms I sometimes feel a bit nauseous after taking them.
I'm only taking 200mcg of Huperzine A once a day and 90mg of ginkgo twice and 3 times on alternate days (so 180mg some days and 270 others).

I also take vitamin c (1g / day) and krill oil (2 caps / day). I take spirulina also but I tend to put it in smoothies or drink it and it's really only if I didn't get a lot of protein that day. I always take spirulina after an O. The protein seems to help me recover.


Ages ago, I remember taking something called "BrainQuick" which contained huperzine, vinpocetine, b vitamins and some amino acids. It definitely had a beneficial effect but it was 1) expensive 2) I needed quite a lot of it and 3) the precise amount of each of the nutrients was not specified. I wish someone would produce an exact huperzine, ginkgo, coenzymated b + protein supplement so I could just take one thing and not be carting lots of pills around with me. I've even considered getting a commercial lab to formulate something.

Apart from that, I don't know what to say. I feel much better. Is it having any affect at all?

[Nightingale]

How much of the B complex are you taking?  That would be my last dosage question.

Also, are you still taking Magnesium and Zinc

With B6, B12, Krill, Magnesium and Zing I have definitely felt different.  I have been abstaining for the past 2 weeks because I became quite depressed and needed to back off the sexual activity, so I can't tell you if I have reduced POIS symptoms.  As far as my other health issues go, I had a very interesting few experiences where I was able to feel anger and act on it.  For the majority of my life, I have been very passive and felt like I had become numb to my anger in order to avoid conflict.  This has been a bad thing, but the past week I have been able to act upon subtle feelings of anger with positive results.  Some people might not see this as positive but I definitely do lol!  I have had such an issue expressing my anger thus resulting in depression.

This has been the main positive effect.  Other than that, I have felt "different" in ways I can't quite describe, which is why I'm wondering if I need to increase my dosing to really see what is being effected.

Bottom line is it has given me desire to keep it up!

I am taking medications for my psychiatric issues which could be making this hard for me to figure out what is going on.  I want to pick up those Coenzymated vitamins.  I'll let you know how I do!

P.S.: Join poiscenter.com/forums!  Demo will make sure you get thru the spam filter

[acronym]

Krill Oil.
I have in the past taken fish oil capsules (good quality brand) and never noticed anything for the better while on them, so was off and on them over the years. Recently I have started taking a good quality distilled artic cod liver oil which has DHA/EPA/Omega3.
I have been reading good things about krill oil, but then I have also read other articles that say that while its is a great supplement it is over hyped and over priced compared to regular fish oils. I realise its hard to isolate a specific item, when one is taking multiple supplements, but for those that are taking Krill oil, do you think it is any better than fish oil, just from personal experience?

[B_Daniel]

Krill Oil.
I have in the past taken fish oil capsules (good quality brand) and never noticed anything for the better while on them, so was off and on them over the years. Recently I have started taking a good quality distilled artic cod liver oil which has DHA/EPA/Omega3.
I have been reading good things about krill oil, but then I have also read other articles that say that while its is a great supplement it is over hyped and over priced compared to regular fish oils. I realise its hard to isolate a specific item, when one is taking multiple supplements, but for those that are taking Krill oil, do you think it is any better than fish oil, just from personal experience?

I've taken fish oil very consistently for a very long time.  I switched over to krill oil for a week or so a couple months back and couldn't tell much of a difference.  Perhaps a week wasn't long enough, but I stopped using it because I wasn't seeing any additional improvement.

[kurtosis]

How much of the B complex are you taking?  That would be my last dosage question.

Also, are you still taking Magnesium and Zinc

With B6, B12, Krill, Magnesium and Zing I have definitely felt different.  I have been abstaining for the past 2 weeks because I became quite depressed and needed to back off the sexual activity, so I can't tell you if I have reduced POIS symptoms.  As far as my other health issues go, I had a very interesting few experiences where I was able to feel anger and act on it.  For the majority of my life, I have been very passive and felt like I had become numb to my anger in order to avoid conflict.  This has been a bad thing, but the past week I have been able to act upon subtle feelings of anger with positive results.  Some people might not see this as positive but I definitely do lol!  I have had such an issue expressing my anger thus resulting in depression.

This has been the main positive effect.  Other than that, I have felt "different" in ways I can't quite describe, which is why I'm wondering if I need to increase my dosing to really see what is being effected.

Bottom line is it has given me desire to keep it up!

I am taking medications for my psychiatric issues which could be making this hard for me to figure out what is going on.  I want to pick up those Coenzymated vitamins.  I'll let you know how I do!

P.S.: Join poiscenter.com/forums!  Demo will make sure you get thru the spam filter

I still take ZMA most nights. If I don't, then I don't remember my dreams. I've said before that, for whatever reason, when I have dream recall I'm much more productive the next day. I'll PM you with a link to the b-supplement I take.  It has CoQ10 and ALA as well as b vitamins. It's available from some "major online retailers"

Querctin and bilobalide have been shown to have neurogenic effects (not in people as yet I think) but my understanding is that people who get a boost from ginkgo have generally being using it for quite a while. A relative of mine said it took 6 months for a really dramatic improvement in memory. I don't think it's a good idea to just take lots of ginkgo or huperzine (>200mcg for instance) as there are reports on internet fora of people becoming quite manic when they did that. Steady consumption with some days off are best.

Ideally, I'd just keep taking the B's, add the ginkgo every day and take some huperzine A every time my eyes bother me. I wish I had just 1 pill to deliver the improvement I want but I've found 1 website where you can do this and I'd have to test whatever they shipped to know it was what I asked for.
 
I have joined poiscenter forums. However, I only check there once a week. I'm sorry I haven't posted much.  I have a lot to do and I look at other NSF threads so this is 1 that I stop by every day or so.

[FireCat]

So, I've been on Niacin and B12 for a week now.

I do say that Niacin works great on me, but I'm not sure whether this can be a total cure.
I have flush on my skin for the first time today, and I have to adjust the amount I take.

Otherwise, they reduced back and neck pains after orgasm, and I appreciated the effect.
The downside seems to be that they seem to raise sexual appetite, and it was hard for me to go without some ejaculation during the week. I was gradually getting dull when I beared from it for several days.

Hopefully, I can soon find a point to comporomise.

[B_Daniel]

I'd like to re-post and say that Wellbutrin, taking one 150mg XR pill every 3 days, works quite well.  I feel 50-75% better and am more productive than ever.  To those of you with Constant POIS, this is a game-changer.

[martin88]

I'd like to re-post and say that Wellbutrin, taking one 150mg XR pill every 3 days, works quite well.  I feel 50-75% better and am more productive than ever.  To those of you with Constant POIS, this is a game-changer.

As it's mentioned in the study below, if you're taking testosterone at the same time it can help. T participates in the antidepressant action of a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor (Wellbutrin is also a NRI).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15301926

[B_Daniel]

I'd like to re-post and say that Wellbutrin, taking one 150mg XR pill every 3 days, works quite well.  I feel 50-75% better and am more productive than ever.  To those of you with Constant POIS, this is a game-changer.

As it's mentioned in the study below, if you're taking testosterone at the same time it can help. T participates in the antidepressant action of a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor (Wellbutrin is also a NRI).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15301926

Perhaps that's so, but I stopped taking Testosterone 2 months ago and the Wellbutrin, only taken 1 per 3 days, still helps a lot.

[kurtosis]

I'd like to re-post and say that Wellbutrin, taking one 150mg XR pill every 3 days, works quite well.  I feel 50-75% better and am more productive than ever.  To those of you with Constant POIS, this is a game-changer.

As it's mentioned in the study below, if you're taking testosterone at the same time it can help. T participates in the antidepressant action of a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor (Wellbutrin is also a NRI).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15301926

noradrenaline and dopamine reuptake inhibitor.

[kurtosis]

Krill Oil.
I have in the past taken fish oil capsules (good quality brand) and never noticed anything for the better while on them, so was off and on them over the years. Recently I have started taking a good quality distilled artic cod liver oil which has DHA/EPA/Omega3.
I have been reading good things about krill oil, but then I have also read other articles that say that while its is a great supplement it is over hyped and over priced compared to regular fish oils. I realise its hard to isolate a specific item, when one is taking multiple supplements, but for those that are taking Krill oil, do you think it is any better than fish oil, just from personal experience?

I think it's better BUT it tends to be very expensive (2-3 times what other many fish oils cost) and I'm not convinced of the freshness of all KO supplements I've taken. The ones that help reduce POIS don't smell rancid. The slightly rancid smell (if that's possible) seems to indicate that key ingredients have degraded, perhaps the astaxanthin.