TheBox on black holes

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #200 on: 10/03/2016 15:58:13 »
Also in this very thread you've made arguments that were based on nothing but the meaning of words like equivalent and matter. If you can do it why can't I?
Similarly, you've been acting like you're some sort of authority on physics for the last couple of weeks now, even though you clearly only half understand what you are talking about.

Why can't we do that to you? We're half-authorities on science too, you know. This is a public forum, not the IPCC.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2016 16:01:33 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #201 on: 10/03/2016 18:54:52 »
Can we all please try to keep this thread polite and, at least outwardly, friendly. Don't want to lock the thread.
Thanks
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #202 on: 10/03/2016 19:11:58 »
Thebox consider that the blue-shift, imparting energy as it does, may well link to relativistic mass increase. Then this extra energy will be all kinetic energy which would help to break molecular bonds and so increase entropy. So that increasing tidal forces will inevitably increase entropy and mostly in that region of the black hole between the light-like orbital and the horizon surface. Now there's a thought!
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #203 on: 10/03/2016 19:33:11 »
And here is a graph of the function x sin 1/x for anyone even remotely interested.

Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #204 on: 10/03/2016 19:43:30 »
Hawking disagrees with Hawking specifically on this topic, you fool:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/stephen-hawking-admits-the-biggest-blunder-of-his-scientific-career-early-belief-that-everything-8568418.html

This is what intelligent knowledgable people do when they discover that there ideas are wrong. Hawking is not disagreeing with himself he has simply corrected a flaw in his understanding.

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I still don't believe you about the "quick calculations." Care to show your work?? I say you're full of crap. I'm no Calculus expert, but I know enough about it to know those calculations aren't quick, and they aren't something you could just pull out a pocket calculator like you were balancing a checkbook. Those equations are complex and comprised largely of Greek symbols and such, single characters in the equation represent another whole equation, etc.

I did show my work in a direct reply to one of your posts. For anyone interested here it is again:

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That source is atrocious (a website about a deep sea robotics is not a good place to learn about the quantum mechanics of metals). It is trying to use an almost completely classical description for something that is inherently quantum mechanical. I actually tried looking around and most basic explanations of conduction have the same exact problem. The general thing to do is to treat the electrons like they form an ideal gas. In an ideal gas the mean free path is expressed as 1/(π*d˛*ρ) where d is the diameter of the particles and ρ is the density of the particles. The density of free electrons in say copper (only the free electrons can conduct) is 8.5*10^28*(1/m^3) the classical radius of an electron (which is definitely too big and generally an electron is thought to not have a radius at all) is about 2.8*10^-15 m giving a diameter of 5.6*10^-15 m. Putting that into the mean free path calculation above says that on average and electron in copper should travel about 12 cm before it hits another electron if we treat the electrons as classical particles. We know that the resistance of a metal wire is directly related to the mean free path of the electrons in the wire. For copper at room temperature we can calculate the actual mean free path of the electrons from actual measured properties with our classical assumptions. When we do this we get a mean free path of electrons in copper of about 40 nm. This number is much much much smaller than 12 cm. Which means that electrons basically always collide with something else (phonons, lattice defects, etc) before they collide with each other or in other words electron-electron collisions cannot explain the conduction of electricity. To put it another way even though the density of the electrons seems high the electrons are actually relatively far apart compared to their size and therefore do not interact. Of course for simplicity we've ignored the uncertainty principle which will change the numbers a bit but will not make up the difference in size between 40 nm and 12 cm.

Quote from: Craig W. Thomson
Similarly, you've been acting like you're some sort of authority on physics for the last couple of weeks now, even though you clearly only half understand what you are talking about.

Why can't we do that to you? We're half-authorities on science too, you know. This is a public forum, not the IPCC.

I am doing nothing but pointing out statements that are false using sources, mathematics, and logic. I have more than sufficiently demonstrated my level of understanding. I could give my qualifications but those are meaningless words. What matters is demonstrated ability and I have done that.

Can we all please try to keep this thread polite and, at least outwardly, friendly. Don't want to lock the thread.
Thanks

I apologize. I am trying me best to keep this discussion focused and polite.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #205 on: 11/03/2016 16:33:19 »
I am doing nothing but pointing out statements that are false using sources, mathematics, and logic. I have more than sufficiently demonstrated my level of understanding. I could give my qualifications but those are meaningless words. What matters is demonstrated ability and I have done that.
As your peer, I respectfully disagree. I still can't get over the fact that you compared the wavelike properties of a photon to an earthquake a few pages back. Now, in the post above, you've "cited your work," but you're talking about electricity and conduction. What does that have to do with black holes? Trying to be "focused and polite" ??You're all over the place. You are obviously somewhat knowledgeable, but your take on physics is piecemeal and incoherent at best. You're like the impulse lawn sprinkler of physics. Plus, nobody who is deep into this subject calls the stuff of the universe "matter" anymore. Mass and energy are the terms I use to discuss "matter," and I'm just a layman. In that respect, you are a Rutherford atom in an electron cloud world.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2016 16:49:31 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #206 on: 11/03/2016 17:24:13 »
As your peer, I respectfully disagree.
That doesn't make my statement any less true.

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I still can't get over the fact that you compared the wavelike properties of a photon to an earthquake a few pages back.


Waves are waves are waves are waves. All wave things (and wavelike things) obey the same set of mathematical principles called wave mechanics. The particular property we were discussing (the ability to have both transverse and longitudinal oscillations simultaneously) is a property all waves share. The interaction of a particular wave with a particular medium or lack of a medium may disallow some or all modes of oscillation. However, this disallowing of oscillation modes is a property of the medium not the waves.

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Now, in the post above, you've "cited your work," but you're talking about electricity and conduction. What does that have to do with black holes? Trying to be "focused and polite" ??You're all over the place.

I responded to a direct request from you. Although now it appears you somehow forgot the original statement to which I was referring despite the rather unambiguous nature of what you yourself quoted.

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You are obviously somewhat knowledgeable, but your take on physics is piecemeal and incoherent at best. You're like the impulse lawn sprinkler of physics. Plus, nobody who is deep into this subject calls the stuff of the universe "matter" anymore. Mass and energy are the terms I use to discuss "matter," and I'm just a layman. In that respect, you are a Rutherford atom in an electron cloud world.

Funny then how you managed to find an entire blog post from a semi-prominent theoretical physicist that specifically spoke about how the term matter is ambiguous even in the realm of science precisely because it is used to mean different things by different people. If so many different people in different disciplines of science are using matter that there is the potential for ambiguity then how can it be that "nobody who is deep into this subject" uses the term? To take a particularly relevant quote from Prof. Matt Strassler:

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Matter, in fact, is an ambiguous term; there are several different definitions used in both scientific literature and in public discourse.  Each definition selects a certain subset of the particles of nature, for different reasons.  Consumer beware!  Matter is always some kind of stuff, but which stuff depends on context.
(Emphasis mine)

From: http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/

Also, when talking about matter I attempt to make it clear what definition of matter I am using by stating that I consider any single entity with a rest frame (i.e. not traveling at c) is matter. Although I do occasionally slip and forget. I am after all only human.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #207 on: 11/03/2016 18:10:18 »
Waves are waves are waves are waves. All wave things (and wavelike things) obey the same set of mathematical principles called wave mechanics. The particular property we were discussing (the ability to have both transverse and longitudinal oscillations simultaneously) is a property all waves share.

Although I do occasionally slip and forget. I am after all only human.
Tell me something I don't know. Of course waves are waves are waves are waves. But like I said, a photon travels forward in space as two waves along a geodesic described by the intersection of two perpendicular planes. A photon cannot travel forward along those two planes and also travel forward in a third plane perpendicular to both of them. The only movement possible along that plane is in a direction AWAY from the geodesic the photon is travelling on. That is physically impossible. In order to oscillate in a third dimension, a photon's wave energy MUST stop travelling forward in space along a geodesic at speed c. That is physically impossible, no matter how many earthquakes you bring to the table.

You could be a little less condescending, you know. That's why I talk to the way I do. You seem to forget that I am also human when you are belittling me and force feeding me your peculiar brand of physics, and I don't appreciate it.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2016 18:13:41 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #208 on: 11/03/2016 21:10:10 »
Now compare the above with f(x) =x sin 1/x^2.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #209 on: 11/03/2016 23:28:04 »
Now compare the above with f(x) =x sin 1/x^2.


Interesting diagram Jeffrey , I am not even sure if we are discussing the same thing, I am not even sure we are discussing, but your diagram and maths look similar to what I am trying to say about singularity 







 

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #210 on: 12/03/2016 00:08:19 »
Tell me something I don't know.
You say you know and understand and then you go and say things like:

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Of course waves are waves are waves are waves. But like I said, a photon travels forward in space as two waves along a geodesic described by the intersection of two perpendicular planes. A photon cannot travel forward along those two planes and also travel forward in a third plane perpendicular to both of them. The only movement possible along that plane is in a direction AWAY from the geodesic the photon is travelling on. That is physically impossible. In order to oscillate in a third dimension, a photon's wave energy MUST stop travelling forward in space along a geodesic at speed c. That is physically impossible, no matter how many earthquakes you bring to the table.

which makes it clear that you don't. For starters a photon traveling in a vacuum is one wave that is oscillating with two transverse modes. The only reason a photon cannot also have a longitudinal mode at the same time is that the vacuum does not support the longitudinal mode of electromagnetic oscillation. It has nothing to do with it being impossible for a wave to have three perpendicular modes of oscillation. All waves have a speed of propagation in whatever medium they travel through and that speed is their maximum speed in that medium. For all intents and purposes a sound wave (or earthquake wave) traveling in a medium is traveling at the speed limit of that medium and if your argument was valid they would be subjected to the same effects as a photon. Thus the fact that there exists traveling waves that possess both transverse and longitudinal modes of oscillation at the same time your reasoning must be flawed. To reiterate what you are describing if it were true should be true of all waves. It clearly is not and therefore cannot be true.

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You could be a little less condescending, you know. That's why I talk to the way I do. You seem to forget that I am also human when you are belittling me and force feeding me your peculiar brand of physics, and I don't appreciate it.

Correcting the errors you make in factual knowledge and logical reasoning is not inherently condescending and no one else has commented that my word choice is suggestive of condescension. The only thing I am attempting to do is to help you learn actual real physics. True physics is so much more amazing than the ridiculous stuff that you think up. Pointing out your errors and attempting to share my knowledge is not an act of belittling.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #211 on: 12/03/2016 00:44:30 »
Now compare the above with f(x) =x sin 1/x^2.


Interesting diagram Jeffrey , I am not even sure if we are discussing the same thing, I am not even sure we are discussing, but your diagram and maths look similar to what I am trying to say about singularity

Ah but can singularities be observed?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #212 on: 12/03/2016 11:17:20 »



Ah but can singularities be observed?


They can if they are within the range limit of observation  be detected by sight or possibly  other means.   




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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #213 on: 12/03/2016 12:20:32 »



Ah but can singularities be observed?


They can if they are within the range limit of observation  be detected by sight or possibly  other means.

You say that with conviction. What is your evidence?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #214 on: 12/03/2016 12:37:00 »


You say that with conviction. What is your evidence?


I can shine a laser and observe the dust I could not otherwise ''see'' in the space between my eyes and object.  Because I am changing the ''colour'' of the constant the singularities stand out more, to see something that is  dark but not really dark, against a dark background that is not really dark, we simply have to change the colour of the foreground to submerge the singularity into something different from the constant same.


So something like if we could see in green dust would look like tiny little stars.





« Last Edit: 12/03/2016 12:42:15 by Thebox »

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #215 on: 12/03/2016 12:51:43 »
Or you could start here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_curvature

"In general relativity, the scalar curvature is the Lagrangian density for the Einstein–Hilbert action. The Euler–Lagrange equations for this Lagrangian under variations in the metric constitute the vacuum Einstein field equations, and the stationary metrics are known as Einstein metrics. The scalar curvature is defined as the trace of the Ricci tensor, and it can be characterized as a multiple of the average of the sectional curvatures at a point. Unlike the Ricci tensor and sectional curvature, however, global results involving only the scalar curvature are extremely subtle and difficult. One of the few is the positive mass theorem of Richard Schoen, Shing-Tung Yau and Edward Witten. Another is the Yamabe problem, which seeks extremal metrics in a given conformal class for which the scalar curvature is constant."
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #216 on: 12/03/2016 12:54:25 »
Suggestive of negative mass/dark energy expanding the metric?
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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #217 on: 12/03/2016 14:41:08 »
It has nothing to do with it being impossible for a wave to have three perpendicular modes of oscillation.

Pointing out your errors and attempting to share my knowledge is not an act of belittling.
I never said it did. That's your error, not mine.

What I actually said, for those of you who can actually read, is that there cannot be FORWARD MOTION along three planes at the same time. In fact, I specifically said the forward motion of a photon becomes confined to an oscillation when that photon interacts with a particle at a point location."

"Forward motion" is not the same thing as an "oscillation," I just wanted to share my knowledge with you.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #218 on: 13/03/2016 02:26:43 »
I never said it did. That's your error, not mine.

What I actually said, for those of you who can actually read, is that there cannot be FORWARD MOTION along three planes at the same time. In fact, I specifically said the forward motion of a photon becomes confined to an oscillation when that photon interacts with a particle at a point location."

"Forward motion" is not the same thing as an "oscillation," I just wanted to share my knowledge with you.

If you weren't talking about oscillations than you are even more wrong than I gave you credit for. You seem to be very confused about terminology and the nature of waves and wave motion in general. If we're simply talking about the propagation of waves then spherical waves are three dimensional in that they have forward motion in all three dimensions. Now spherical waves are generated by point sources but are by no means confined in any sense of the word. Here is a little bit about wave propagation:

https://www.cis.rit.edu/class/simg712-01/notes/basicprinciples-07.pdf

Generally speaking there is no such thing as a perfect plane or cylindrical wave because they require an infinite plane or line to generate them. All waves propagating through space have some spherical nature to them because their sources are all finite in extent. The key point to all of this is that for any spherical wave if you draw three mutually perpendicular planes through the wave front the wave will have motion along all three of the plains. Don't be confused by drawings of electromagnetic waves like the one in the link below:

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/remote/images/emwave.gif

Only one of the axes (the plural of axis not axe) in that picture represents a direction in space (the one labeled direction). The other two axes represent the intensity of the electric and magnetic fields and are in units of electric and magnetic field strength not distance. At best that diagram represents an idealized plane wave not a true physical wave. Diagrams of wave propagation are simplified like this because there really is no way to draw what is really going on in three spatial dimensions while also representing the changes in field strength that wouldn't be an indecipherable mess. This point should always be made very clear when these diagrams are used (and in courses on electromagnetism that is usually the case) but often it is not when communicating to a lay audience. Higher sciences routinely make use of axes that represent things other than space and sometimes spatial and non-spatial axes are mixed together in the same graph which can be very confusing to the uninitiated.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #219 on: 13/03/2016 09:12:53 »
Suggestive of negative mass/dark energy expanding the metric?


The invert of that . ONLY pos expands pos, it is polarity difference, we do not know there was not a ring formation and we ''drifted'' inwards.


Neg IS attracted to Neg ,

 I think orbiting bodies are some sort of Magnus affect and solar winds?









« Last Edit: 13/03/2016 09:18:57 by Thebox »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #220 on: 13/03/2016 16:35:02 »
"Forward motion" is not the same thing as an "oscillation."
The key point to all of this is that for any spherical wave if you draw three mutually perpendicular planes through the wave front the wave will have motion along all three of the plains.
Maybe that's YOUR key point, but what's that got to do with my original point? This is why I say you are the impulse lawn sprinkler of physics. You're always spewing out physics knowledge that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, going off on tangents. I have been trying to talk about photons this whole time. Photons don't travel as plane waves (you said "plain" waves). Motion along three planes is possible as an oscillation, but an oscillation does NOT constitute "forward propagation through space at c along a geodesic."

In short, a photon travels along two perpendicular planes at c when alone, its energy oscillates at a location in space when it is part of an atom. If you're saying something other than that, you are wrong, and I don't care how many tangents you go off on, how many links you post, or how much you want to win this debate. A photon cannot travel forward through space at c when its energy has been absorbed by another particle located at the intersection of the photon's geodesic and a plane perpendicular to it.
« Last Edit: 13/03/2016 16:39:41 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #221 on: 13/03/2016 16:58:43 »
Ah but can singularities be observed?
"Observation" generally means some sort of particle exchange has occurred. When you look at things with your eyes, you are seeing photons that "bounced" off stuff, then were absorbed by electrons in your retina. When we "observe" particles, we basically "bounce" or "crash" other particles off them and see what happens to them, or observe how different particles scatter after the collision. You can't observe a black hole because any particle you accelerate toward it in order to make an observation simply gets absorbed and dissappears; it won't bounce off the singularity, nor will scattered particles come out of the singularity to be observed after such a collision. It simply merges with the singularity. I suppose you could make the observation that the black hole pulls a little harder on you after it absorbed the particle you tried to observe it with if you had an unbelievably accurate scale.

I think a better questions is, "Can a singularity even exist?" I think there is a point beyond which mass and energy cannot be compressed any farther because there needs to be enough room for particles to oscillate a bit. I think a true "point" singularity is impossible. A point, by definition, has no length, width or depth, so it can contain nothing. A "true" point is in fact imaginary. As such, I am a firm believer in the idea that before they reach a "point," black holes rather reach a "critical point" of mass/energy density similar to the Chandrasekhar limit for a type 1a supernova. I think that when a supermassive black hole consumes enough supermassive black holes, eventually that mass and energy reaches "a point" where it cannot be constrained any farther into an actual "point," and when mass/energy content for a super-supermassive black hole reaches approximately 1 Universe, it all gets released in an explosive Big Bang event, a sort of "mega-supernova."

This idea solves two problems.

First, entropy is seen as a one-way process. My idea is that when particles merge with a black hole's contents, that's the reverse of Big Bang Nucleosynthesis taking place in there where we can't see it. A Big Bang as such amounts to an "entropic reversal." Whatever mathematicians may say about black holes and entropy, to me, logically, there's nothing more "ordered" than a miniscule space containing billions of galaxies worth of condensed mass/energy plasma soup that wants to expand, fill space and decay to less volatile forms. I often compare this to a bottle of compressed gas. Taking the lid off the bottle is the Big Bang. Black holes "put the gas back in the bottle." One-way entropy contradiction solved.

Second, a finite universe with a Big Bang starting point and a heat death ending point doesn't make much sense according to mass/energy conservation. There should be something before and after the Big Bang. I don't think everything was "created" at the Big Bang. Mass and energy cannot be created or destroyed, that's basic Thermodynamics. My idea makes the universe cyclical, with something existing both before and after our present Universe.

I would also point out that if everything IN the universe is cyclical, why would the Universe itself not also be cyclical? There are multiple examples of everything in the universe, from quarks to atoms to molecules to planets to stars to galaxies to galaxy clusters to superclusters, supernovae, black holes, etc. There's no process in the universe that happens "just once," there's no "single" example of anything. Therefore, I have a hard time believing there's just one Big Bang. To me, it makes more sense to think of our present universe as a particle of sorts, which can be "created" and "annihilated," but that doesn't mean the stuff it's made of ever actually ceases to exist. It just exists as some particular entity for an arbitrary period of time before undergoing some other transformation to its mass and energy.
« Last Edit: 13/03/2016 17:36:22 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #222 on: 13/03/2016 18:24:10 »
Maybe that's YOUR key point, but what's that got to do with my original point? This is why I say you are the impulse lawn sprinkler of physics. You're always spewing out physics knowledge that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, going off on tangents. I have been trying to talk about photons this whole time. Photons don't travel as plane waves (you said "plain" waves). Motion along three planes is possible as an oscillation, but an oscillation does NOT constitute "forward propagation through space at c along a geodesic."

I actually didn't ever say "plain" waves. I did accidently say "plain" when I was referring to mathematical planes but I never said "plain" waves. You in fact quoted the one and only time I made that mistake which wasn't about plane waves and tried to apply it my entire post. Either you are having trouble reading or you are simply lying in an attempt to make me angry. Also, I just linked to a pdf about the propagation of waves that made it clear in no uncertain terms that spherical waves propagate along all three spatial dimensions.

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In short, a photon travels along two perpendicular planes at c when alone, its energy oscillates at a location in space when it is part of an atom. If you're saying something other than that, you are wrong, and I don't care how many tangents you go off on, how many links you post, or how much you want to win this debate. A photon cannot travel forward through space at c when its energy has been absorbed by another particle located at the intersection of the photon's geodesic and a plane perpendicular to it.

The number of planes along which a single photon travels is always three. The wave function of a photon always spreads in the x and y directions as it moves in the z direction. This must happen in order for the intensity of light to fall of at a rate proportional to 1/r as observation has confirmed. Groups of photons may interfere constructively and destructively to make a wave front that appears one or two dimension over a selected area but that is close as it ever gets. A photon is never part of an atom. As I have said before a photon that is absorbed by an atom is said to be annihilated. It ceases to exist. Scientists would not use the word annihilated if the photon didn't cease to exist. Further, there are no electrostatic oscillations of an atom after the absorption of a photon and no electrostatic oscillations means no photon.

Now if you want to talk scattering over absorption that is a whole different story. In scattering a photon that is not the right energy to be absorbed sets up a forced oscillation in the electrons of the atom. That forced oscillation starts creating another photon while the atom is still interacting with the first photon and the two photons interfere with each other. The result is an otherwise identical outgoing photon usually traveling in a slightly different direction. Now in general the radius of a single atom is never larger than about 0.5 nm and the most energy it could ever take to strip an electron from a neutral atom is ~24.584 eV which corresponds to a wavelength of ~50 nm. Typical visible light photons are in the 100s to almost 1000s of nm range in terms of wavelengths. This means that in most interactions between atoms and photons that photon is going to be interacting with several atoms along its direction of travel at once. Additionally the photon spreads out perpendicularly to its direction of travel meaning it interacts with even more atoms simultaneously. The end result is that is makes almost no sense to talk about a single atom and a single photon interacting as a real occurrence when discussing the propagation of light through a medium. The collective action of many atoms undergoing forced oscillations and producing many electromagnetic waves that all interfere with each other result in the observed speed of light through any medium. It is never as simple as one photon and one atom in any real scenario.

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I would also point out that if everything IN the universe is cyclical, why would the Universe itself not also be cyclical?

That's a very dubious claim. Just for starters nucleosynthesis in stars isn't cyclic. Heavier elements are built up but never return to being hydrogen or helium.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #223 on: 13/03/2016 20:09:01 »
Ah but can singularities be observed?
"Observation" generally means some sort of particle exchange has occurred. When you look at things with your eyes, you are seeing photons that "bounced" off stuff, then were absorbed by electrons in your retina. When we "observe" particles, we basically "bounce" or "crash" other particles off them and see what happens to them, or observe how different particles scatter after the collision. You can't observe a black hole because any particle you accelerate toward it in order to make an observation simply gets absorbed and dissappears; it won't bounce off the singularity, nor will scattered particles come out of the singularity to be observed after such a collision. It simply merges with the singularity. I suppose you could make the observation that the black hole pulls a little harder on you after it absorbed the particle you tried to observe it with if you had an unbelievably accurate scale.

I think a better questions is, "Can a singularity even exist?" I think there is a point beyond which mass and energy cannot be compressed any farther because there needs to be enough room for particles to oscillate a bit. I think a true "point" singularity is impossible. A point, by definition, has no length, width or depth, so it can contain nothing. A "true" point is in fact imaginary. As such, I am a firm believer in the idea that before they reach a "point," black holes rather reach a "critical point" of mass/energy density similar to the Chandrasekhar limit for a type 1a supernova. I think that when a supermassive black hole consumes enough supermassive black holes, eventually that mass and energy reaches "a point" where it cannot be constrained any farther into an actual "point," and when mass/energy content for a super-supermassive black hole reaches approximately 1 Universe, it all gets released in an explosive Big Bang event, a sort of "mega-supernova."

This idea solves two problems.

First, entropy is seen as a one-way process. My idea is that when particles merge with a black hole's contents, that's the reverse of Big Bang Nucleosynthesis taking place in there where we can't see it. A Big Bang as such amounts to an "entropic reversal." Whatever mathematicians may say about black holes and entropy, to me, logically, there's nothing more "ordered" than a miniscule space containing billions of galaxies worth of condensed mass/energy plasma soup that wants to expand, fill space and decay to less volatile forms. I often compare this to a bottle of compressed gas. Taking the lid off the bottle is the Big Bang. Black holes "put the gas back in the bottle." One-way entropy contradiction solved.

Second, a finite universe with a Big Bang starting point and a heat death ending point doesn't make much sense according to mass/energy conservation. There should be something before and after the Big Bang. I don't think everything was "created" at the Big Bang. Mass and energy cannot be created or destroyed, that's basic Thermodynamics. My idea makes the universe cyclical, with something existing both before and after our present Universe.

I would also point out that if everything IN the universe is cyclical, why would the Universe itself not also be cyclical? There are multiple examples of everything in the universe, from quarks to atoms to molecules to planets to stars to galaxies to galaxy clusters to superclusters, supernovae, black holes, etc. There's no process in the universe that happens "just once," there's no "single" example of anything. Therefore, I have a hard time believing there's just one Big Bang. To me, it makes more sense to think of our present universe as a particle of sorts, which can be "created" and "annihilated," but that doesn't mean the stuff it's made of ever actually ceases to exist. It just exists as some particular entity for an arbitrary period of time before undergoing some other transformation to its mass and energy.

While that is all interesting in its own way you assume to know the level of my knowledge. Of course I know that you can't observe a singularity. I was posing a question to Thebox.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #224 on: 14/03/2016 00:46:43 »
While that is all interesting in its own way you assume to know the level of my knowledge. Of course I know that you can't observe a singularity. I was posing a question to Thebox.
I'm not the type to assume things, unless they are something that generally falls under the category of "common sense." I merely feel that, in a physics forum, I should explain myself fully in a post. I'm certainly not trying be patronizing about your knowledge. If there's an assumption being made on my part, it's that someone might be reading my post who knows either more or less than either you or I do, or might even reply to my post, as this IS a public forum. To me, that's a "common sense" observation.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #225 on: 14/03/2016 07:43:27 »
So what is your view on gauge gravitation theory?
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #226 on: 14/03/2016 14:38:37 »
I actually didn't ever say "plain" waves. I did accidently say "plain" when I was referring to mathematical planes but I never said "plain" waves. You in fact quoted the one and only time I made that mistake which wasn't about plane waves and tried to apply it my entire post. Either you are having trouble reading or you are simply lying in an attempt to make me angry.
You said: "...the wave will have motion along all three of the plains." Okay, so the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plains, but what about the spherical wave of an earthquake? Don't get mad. Stop making mistakes.

The number of planes along which a single photon travels is always three.
FALSE! Just plain false. Or, just plane false. Whichever you prefer.

I said: "I would also point out that if everything IN the universe is cyclical, why would the Universe itself not also be cyclical?" Your reply:
That's a very dubious claim. Just for starters nucleosynthesis in stars isn't cyclic. Heavier elements are built up but never return to being hydrogen or helium.
That's not a claim. That's a question. Big difference. Speaking of claims, despite your earlier claim, I think YOU are trying to make ME mad. That's why you keep reading things into my posts that I didn't say. If you put that question back into the context where it belongs, it makes sense. I said, "There's no process in the universe that happens "just once," there's no "single" example of anything. Therefore, I have a hard time believing there's just one Big Bang." Now, of course, Big Bang Nucleosynthesis is part of the context of the Big Bang. Maybe you should try leaving my statements in their context where they belong.

You don't know what's happening in a black hole because they can't be observed. My suggestion is that Big Bang Nucleosynthesis is being reversed inside black holes. Mass, energy, particles, light elements, heavy elements, all of it is merging into a plasma soup, just like the plasma soup that emerged from the Big Bang before it started decaying to more stable forms.

I am eagerly awaiting your latest straw man argument. The suspense is killing me.

« Last Edit: 14/03/2016 14:42:05 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #227 on: 14/03/2016 21:52:31 »
I actually didn't ever say "plain" waves. I did accidently say "plain" when I was referring to mathematical planes but I never said "plain" waves. You in fact quoted the one and only time I made that mistake which wasn't about plane waves and tried to apply it my entire post. Either you are having trouble reading or you are simply lying in an attempt to make me angry.
You said: "...the wave will have motion along all three of the plains." Okay, so the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plains, but what about the spherical wave of an earthquake? Don't get mad. Stop making mistakes.

I admitted that I said plains when I meant planes while talking about mathematical planes however I never made that typo when I was talking about plane waves. Also I'm clearly not angry after all I'm not repeatedly attempting to shame a person for a typo.

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The number of planes along which a single photon travels is always three.
FALSE! Just plain false. Or, just plane false. Whichever you prefer.

Prove it. I'm pretty sure I actually already linked at least one reference on the propagation of single photons (if not I can and it wasn't that last thing I linked on light propagation either). Single photon wave functions travel forward while also dispersing (getting larger) in directions perpendicular to their motion. The wave function spreads into a spherical cone and the photon can be found anywhere on the edge of that spherical cone. Thus you can't describe the propagation of a single photon without taking into account all three dimensions.

Quote
I said: "I would also point out that if everything IN the universe is cyclical, why would the Universe itself not also be cyclical?" Your reply:
That's a very dubious claim. Just for starters nucleosynthesis in stars isn't cyclic. Heavier elements are built up but never return to being hydrogen or helium.
That's not a claim. That's a question.

The first half is a statement or claim if you will. The second half is a question. Clearly you wouldn't say the first half if you didn't think it was true.

Quote
Big difference. Speaking of claims, despite your earlier claim, I think YOU are trying to make ME mad. That's why you keep reading things into my posts that I didn't say. If you put that question back into the context where it belongs, it makes sense. I said, "There's no process in the universe that happens "just once," there's no "single" example of anything. Therefore, I have a hard time believing there's just one Big Bang." Now, of course, Big Bang Nucleosynthesis is part of the context of the Big Bang. Maybe you should try leaving my statements in their context where they belong.

Just because an event happens more than once doesn't make it cyclic. Something that is cyclic starts out in one state progresses through several other states (or just one other state) and then returns exactly to the state at which it started. Stars do not return to clouds of hydrogen and helium and no novae, supernovae, and other star death does not count because any resulting clouds do not have the same composition, are generally traveling away from the dead star in all directions, and a core is left behind. The fact that other stars form does not make the processes cyclic. There very well could be other Big Bangs past the edge of the visible universe. This is a theory that has been floating around for quite some time. But again that doesn't make them cyclical.

Quote
You don't know what's happening in a black hole because they can't be observed. My suggestion is that Big Bang Nucleosynthesis is being reversed inside black holes. Mass, energy, particles, light elements, heavy elements, all of it is merging into a plasma soup, just like the plasma soup that emerged from the Big Bang before it started decaying to more stable forms.

There is currently no way to know anything about what happens to things that fall into black holes. Without observational evidence or a good predictive theoretical framework that is designed to work for the conditions at the singularity there is no point in idle speculation. Certainly idle speculation of what goes on inside a black hole should not be used to then speculate about the nature of the universe as a hole. Certainly the answer, should there be one, to what goes on inside a black hole will be important to cosmology but until we have evidence and an theoretical framework it is meaningless to speculate. Its especially meaningless when your speculations lead you to the conclusion that the entire universe and everything in it is cyclic because events like star formation happened more than once in different places in spite of the accepted definition of cyclic.

Quote
I am eagerly awaiting your latest straw man argument. The suspense is killing me.

You libel me in basically every post for no reason and I'm supposedly the one trying to make you angry?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #228 on: 15/03/2016 10:56:16 »
So what is your view on gauge gravitation theory?

I am not sure to whom your question is  aimed at, I personally have not heard of that and will have to do some research to gain some knowledge of it.

Thank you for providing something new to me.


added-

''Gauge theory gravity (GTG) is a theory of gravitation cast in the mathematical language of geometric algebra. To those familiar with general relativity, it is highly reminiscent of the tetrad formalism although there are significant conceptual differences.''


Algebra does not explain gravity surely unless 0=0, A=A,B=B, X=X,Y=X,Z=X,t=X?

I tried watching a video , I had no idea what they were trying to say.

added - I have read Wiki and do not pretend to understand all of it, but


y→y'= delta y→x,y,z'= f(x)  when discussing light, so I assume this must apply to gravity also .

gravity contraction =   (>r=<A ) where r is radius length between objects and A is the area of the visual x,y plane of the objects.

[attachment=21177]

I think the gauge theory you  mentioned is similar to what I am saying about space-time v ''space-time''

Space-time existing in an invariant ''n-dimensional space-time''

[attachment=21179]


















« Last Edit: 15/03/2016 11:45:46 by Thebox »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #229 on: 15/03/2016 15:28:12 »
You libel me in basically every post for no reason and I'm supposedly the one trying to make you angry?
"Libel" is me trying to damage your reputation. You're "agyegy," a sock puppet, so the only reputation you have that I am aware of is your reputation for going off on tangents, obfuscating issues, putting words in my mouth, bloviating at great length, contradicting factual statements, being a condescending know-it-all, and a stalker that followed me here from physforum.com.

I'm almost starting to think you are waitedavid137's sock puppet. Why is it you always target me? There's plenty of other people to correct out there. I think I know the answer. Like him, you are a pseudointellectual. You can't think. All you can do is regurgitate. I think memorizers like the two of you feel threatened by actual smart people.
« Last Edit: 15/03/2016 15:31:21 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #230 on: 15/03/2016 15:49:26 »
Prove it. I'm pretty sure I actually already linked at least one reference on the propagation of single photons (if not I can and it wasn't that last thing I linked on light propagation either). Single photon wave functions travel forward while also dispersing (getting larger) in directions perpendicular to their motion. The wave function spreads into a spherical cone and the photon can be found anywhere on the edge of that spherical cone. Thus you can't describe the propagation of a single photon without taking into account all three dimensions.
What do you mean, "prove it" ?? Are you this dense for real, or is it an act?

Again, a photon travels forward along the intersection of two planes in a straight line at c in a vacuum. You can consider that line the intersection of plane x and plane y. If the photon wishes to continue travelling in a straight line along the intersection of the x and y planes, it CANNOT FOLLOW A STRAIGHT LINE IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. It can ONLY OSCILLATE along the z plane. Again, except for maybe entangled particles or some strange case, a single particle like a photon cannot go two different directions at the same time. If it is following a straight line, it cannot follow a perpendicular straight line simultaneously. I grow weary from having to explain this to you about a dozen times in as many days in plane, plain English. Get yourself an English tutor, a science teacher, a therapist, or all three, but leave me alone if you're going to waste my time with your endless obfuscation.
« Last Edit: 15/03/2016 15:54:59 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #231 on: 15/03/2016 15:56:42 »
there is no point in idle speculation.
Then please leave this thread immediately.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #232 on: 15/03/2016 22:02:58 »
"Libel" is me trying to damage your reputation. You're "agyegy," a sock puppet, so the only reputation you have that I am aware of is your reputation for going off on tangents, obfuscating issues, putting words in my mouth, bloviating at great length, contradicting factual statements, being a condescending know-it-all, and a stalker that followed me here from physforum.com.

I'm almost starting to think you are waitedavid137's sock puppet. Why is it you always target me? There's plenty of other people to correct out there. I think I know the answer. Like him, you are a pseudointellectual. You can't think. All you can do is regurgitate. I think memorizers like the two of you feel threatened by actual smart people.

So more libel then?

What do you mean, "prove it" ?? Are you this dense for real, or is it an act?

Again, a photon travels forward along the intersection of two planes in a straight line at c in a vacuum. You can consider that line the intersection of plane x and plane y. If the photon wishes to continue travelling in a straight line along the intersection of the x and y planes, it CANNOT FOLLOW A STRAIGHT LINE IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION. It can ONLY OSCILLATE along the z plane. Again, except for maybe entangled particles or some strange case, a single particle like a photon cannot go two different directions at the same time. If it is following a straight line, it cannot follow a perpendicular straight line simultaneously. I grow weary from having to explain this to you about a dozen times in as many days in plane, plain English. Get yourself an English tutor, a science teacher, a therapist, or all three, but leave me alone if you're going to waste my time with your endless obfuscation.

You are interpreting the schematic diagrams of light propagation too literally. For a plane wave it is understood that the magnetic and electric fields both extend to infinity in both perpendicular directions. The electric field points in one direction and the magnetic field points in the direction perpendicular to that and the direction of forward motion. Both fields overlap at all points in space. That is what it means to be a vector field and is one of the very first things you learn in a college course on electromagnetism. Here is a pretty good answer from stackexchange with diagrams demonstrating what I just said:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/194233/what-does-a-light-wave-look-like-3d-model

For cylindrical and spherical waves things are a little different but the electric and magnetic fields still overlap. In the case of a single photon the electric and magnetic fields generally only have appreciable magnitude over a relatively small area but they still overlap at every point in that area. That area also increases with time and the peak intensity decreases with time so that the overall energy stored in the fields remains the same.

Then please leave this thread immediately.

Why? I'm allowed to express my opinions to exactly the same degree you are entitled to express yours.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #233 on: 16/03/2016 13:56:44 »
You are interpreting the schematic diagrams of light propagation too literally. For a plane wave it is understood that the magnetic and electric fields both extend to infinity in both perpendicular directions.
False. It is understood that "infinity" is not a legitimate solution to an equation. I'm only beginning to learn Calculus, but I think what you are referring to is a "limit, " as in:

Limit (mathematics)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In mathematics, a limit is the value that a function or sequence "approaches" as the input or index approaches some value.[1] Limits are essential to calculus (and mathematical analysis in general) and are used to define continuity, derivatives, and integrals.

So, maybe according to the mathematics, those fields "approach" infinity or something, but they do NOT actually extend to infinity.

Sorry to be the one to have to tell you, but there's another limit: The speed of light. No part of a photon can be infinitely far away because it would take infinitely long to get back. In fact, when a photon is absorbed, that takes place "in an instant." The photon is annihilated and an atom in an excited state is created on the spot. There's no hanging around for hundreds of millions of years waiting for some component of a photon to get back from the Andromeda Galaxy.

You seem to keep forgetting, math is a language, and no language captures the essence of reality 100% correctly. Stop taking mathematics so literally.
« Last Edit: 16/03/2016 14:03:20 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #234 on: 16/03/2016 14:16:20 »


You seem to keep forgetting, math is a language, and no language captures the essence of reality 100% correctly. Stop taking mathematics so literally.

In my opinion maths is limitless , it  is travel that has a limit.    To me what captures the essence of reality is simply what we see and observe, I am quite sure I can observe myself and Andromeda simultaneously, I am quite sure that Andromeda is not coming ''backwards'' in ''time''.

I am more than sure that the now of Andromeda is approaching my now.


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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #235 on: 16/03/2016 16:57:49 »
False. It is understood that "infinity" is not a legitimate solution to an equation. I'm only beginning to learn Calculus, but I think what you are referring to is a "limit, " as in:

Limit (mathematics)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In mathematics, a limit is the value that a function or sequence "approaches" as the input or index approaches some value.[1] Limits are essential to calculus (and mathematical analysis in general) and are used to define continuity, derivatives, and integrals.

So, maybe according to the mathematics, those fields "approach" infinity or something, but they do NOT actually extend to infinity.

If only I had said something about how plane waves are idealizations and therefore not actually possible. Oh wait I did:

Here is a little bit about wave propagation:

https://www.cis.rit.edu/class/simg712-01/notes/basicprinciples-07.pdf

Generally speaking there is no such thing as a perfect plane or cylindrical wave because they require an infinite plane or line to generate them. All waves propagating through space have some spherical nature to them because their sources are all finite in extent.

It would have been even better if I had continued by explaining how the idealized plane wave case generalizes to say the single photon case. Oh wait I did that too:

For cylindrical and spherical waves things are a little different but the electric and magnetic fields still overlap. In the case of a single photon the electric and magnetic fields generally only have appreciable magnitude over a relatively small area but they still overlap at every point in that area. That area also increases with time and the peak intensity decreases with time so that the overall energy stored in the fields remains the same.

Also, the fact that a vector field is taken to extend to infinity in all directions isn't a limit and really has nothing to do with calculus (in most cases). It is verbal (and sometimes mathematical) shortcut for saying that whatever is happening at the edges of whatever system we are studying isn't impacting the particular property we are talking about. Of course one would never treat a single photon like that or at least not without a great deal of care mathematically.

Quote
Sorry to be the one to have to tell you, but there's another limit: The speed of light. No part of a photon can be infinitely far away because it would take infinitely long to get back. In fact, when a photon is absorbed, that takes place "in an instant." The photon is annihilated and an atom in an excited state is created on the spot. There's no hanging around for hundreds of millions of years waiting for some component of a photon to get back from the Andromeda Galaxy.

Well for starters I clearly had this to say about single photons:

In the case of a single photon the electric and magnetic fields generally only have appreciable magnitude over a relatively small area but they still overlap at every point in that area. That area also increases with time and the peak intensity decreases with time so that the overall energy stored in the fields remains the same.

Hmm, I don't see anything about a single photon extending to infinity in there. Unless someone changed the definition of "relatively small" to "infinite" while I wasn't looking. I seem to recall someone saying something about strawman arguments awhile back but I can't seem to remember who. Whoever it was should probably remember that when one lives in a glass house one shouldn't throw stones.

That aside it is well known and experimentally verified that quantum mechanics and therefore quantum mechanical fields are inherently non-local. Which means when a photon is absorbed by an atom at a certain position all the electric and magnetic field oscillations associated with that photon at all points in space that photon can be said to exist (everywhere you could have possibly detected it) instantly vanish. This was a hard thing for many physicists to come to grips with but it has been experimentally verified so there is no other choice but to accept it. Luckily no information is transmitted from the points where the oscillations vanish to the absorption point or vice versa so causality is preserved.

Quote
You seem to keep forgetting, math is a language, and no language captures the essence of reality 100% correctly. Stop taking mathematics so literally.

I clearly wasn't. Also, you are doing that thing where you try to copy the form of my arguments. You really shouldn't do that it never works out well.

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #236 on: 17/03/2016 15:48:56 »
Well for starters I clearly had this to say about single photons
You have a lot to say. Too much, in fact. You're doing that thing that waitedavid137 does, which never works out well. Would you like to throw in a few words about the kitchen sink? Or maybe some more information about "plain waves" that readers would find helpful.
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 15:51:52 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #237 on: 17/03/2016 16:14:11 »
You have a lot to say. Too much, in fact. You're doing that thing that waitedavid137 does, which never works out well. Would you like to throw in a few words about the kitchen sink? Or maybe some more information about "plain waves" that readers would find helpful.

Just to be clear your current line of argument is that I've provided too much support for my statements and because of that I am wrong? That is a very interesting line of reasoning. Also, I really suggest you stop trying to provoke me into anger (we've already cleared up that I never made the "plain" typo when speaking of plane waves). I find it slightly humorous but the moderators might eventually start to take a dim view of it. We've already been asked to stay civil at least once in this thread.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #238 on: 18/03/2016 12:32:39 »
You have a lot to say. Too much, in fact. You're doing that thing that waitedavid137 does, which never works out well. Would you like to throw in a few words about the kitchen sink? Or maybe some more information about "plain waves" that readers would find helpful.

Just to be clear your current line of argument is that I've provided too much support for my statements and because of that I am wrong? That is a very interesting line of reasoning. Also, I really suggest you stop trying to provoke me into anger (we've already cleared up that I never made the "plain" typo when speaking of plane waves). I find it slightly humorous but the moderators might eventually start to take a dim view of it. We've already been asked to stay civil at least once in this thread.
No, my argument is that you can't stick to the subject. I'm talking about photons, all of a sudden you're describing how spherical wave fronts act in an earthquake. I basically said photons can't travel in a straight line at c and in another straight line perpendicular to that at c, and you posted a bazillion science facts about everything under the sun to try to discredit the argument, but you never did. You've been trying to provoke me to anger for several months now, just in case anyone who is reading this doesn't know about you from physforum.com like I do. Your patronization and condescension is way out of line, especially since you only half know what you are talking about. As far as moderators "taking a dim view of things," I already have a debate on climate change going with alancalverd, a "skeptic moderator" who is apparently as full of crap as you. Maybe you should try to become a moderator.

Is there one single web site out there that isn't polluted with half-wits? I really thought science forums would be different.
« Last Edit: 18/03/2016 12:34:51 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #239 on: 18/03/2016 13:27:29 »
. As far as moderators "taking a dim view of things," I already have a debate on climate change going with alancalverd, a "skeptic moderator" who is apparently as full of crap as you. Maybe you should try to become a moderator.



Whoa! that is a rather rude and disrespectful thing to say about a moderator.   You are the one who is privileged to be here, you and your friend have done nothing but moan at each other ''flaming''.

Neither of you are an authority on science, STOP being so deluded.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #240 on: 18/03/2016 13:40:00 »
No, my argument is that you can't stick to the subject. I'm talking about photons, all of a sudden you're describing how spherical wave fronts act in an earthquake. I basically said photons can't travel in a straight line at c and in another straight line perpendicular to that at c, and you posted a bazillion science facts about everything under the sun to try to discredit the argument, but you never did. You've been trying to provoke me to anger for several months now, just in case anyone who is reading this doesn't know about you from physforum.com like I do. Your patronization and condescension is way out of line, especially since you only half know what you are talking about. As far as moderators "taking a dim view of things," I already have a debate on climate change going with alancalverd, a "skeptic moderator" who is apparently as full of crap as you. Maybe you should try to become a moderator.

Is there one single web site out there that isn't polluted with half-wits? I really thought science forums would be different.

You just don't like being corrected by anybody. Which is why you instantly go into fight mode when challenged. That is not the way to learn. You say you have just started studying calculus. Well carry on reading because you have a LOT to learn.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #241 on: 18/03/2016 17:59:50 »
No, my argument is that you can't stick to the subject. I'm talking about photons, all of a sudden you're describing how spherical wave fronts act in an earthquake. I basically said photons can't travel in a straight line at c and in another straight line perpendicular to that at c, and you posted a bazillion science facts about everything under the sun to try to discredit the argument, but you never did. You've been trying to provoke me to anger for several months now, just in case anyone who is reading this doesn't know about you from physforum.com like I do. Your patronization and condescension is way out of line, especially since you only half know what you are talking about. As far as moderators "taking a dim view of things," I already have a debate on climate change going with alancalverd, a "skeptic moderator" who is apparently as full of crap as you. Maybe you should try to become a moderator.

Is there one single web site out there that isn't polluted with half-wits? I really thought science forums would be different.

Ah so instead your argument is that the theory and mathematics specifically designed to describe the propagation of light (and any wave motion in general) doesn't actually describe the propagation of light. Honestly this argument isn't really any better than the other one.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #242 on: 19/03/2016 11:16:45 »
. As far as moderators "taking a dim view of things," I already have a debate on climate change going with alancalverd, a "skeptic moderator" who is apparently as full of crap as you. Maybe you should try to become a moderator.
Whoa! that is a rather rude and disrespectful thing to say about a moderator.   You are the one who is privileged to be here, you and your friend have done nothing but moan at each other ''flaming''.

Neither of you are an authority on science, STOP being so deluded.
Whoa, I never said I was an authority. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. I've always made it clear from the first day I started posting in science forums that I am a layman. I'm not "privileged" to be here if a moderator is going to attempt to misinform me. alancalverd either doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to climate science, or he has a financial or corporate interest for posting his opinions. Wrong is wrong regardless of any title one holds. I'm interested in the truth, not authoritarian science figures.  No, I'm not a "certified" authority on climate change, but I have been studying it since 1988, I've read dozens of books about it, and I did take some science and math in college while pursuing another degree. I didn't exactly fail out of those courses, as I've pointed out numerous times. I know the basics. You and alancalverd are both privileged to be here because you both spout nonsense and disregard the scientific method and empirical evidence.

You're a big one to talk anyway. You came to physforum.com with pmb a few months back SPECIFICALLY to flame waitedavid137. Now, agyegy has followed your example, and he followed me here to troll me just like he was at physforum.com. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that before he showed up, I wasn't "moaning." He has specifically targeted me, and I'm not going to just roll over and let him have his say. He's the one pretending to be an authority, not me. I'm just calling him out. If you learned your science correctly and paid attention when people explained stuff to you instead of promulgating your peculiarly interesting scientific nonsense, you could see he's obfuscating the issues to win the argument, talking in circles and going off on tangents.

Physics makes sense to me until people like you, agyegy and alancalverd start explaining it. That's okay. I've learned a lot the last couple of years trying to fact check folks just like the three of you. You're actually doing me a favor.
« Last Edit: 19/03/2016 11:45:07 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #243 on: 19/03/2016 16:01:32 »
For a plane wave it is understood that the magnetic and electric fields both extend to infinity in both perpendicular directions.
False, just on the premise of Zeno's Paradox alone. I don't even need to go into the complex mathematics in great detail. Gravity is a field. Part of the math needed to understand how gravity works is that it falls off as a square of distance from the gravitational source. Nothing terribly complicated about that math. So, you are talking about a "summable series," which is finite. That's a pretty simple math concept as well. That's what I've learned. Fields are an example of a summable series, not an example of infinity.

What's that you said? "Ah so instead your argument is that the theory and mathematics specifically designed to describe the propagation of light (and any wave motion in general) doesn't actually describe the propagation of light. Honestly this argument isn't really any better than the other one."

Let me clarify: Magnetic, electric and gravitational fields diminish with distance, that is. I don't want you to go off on a tangent about color charge and quarks. Still talking about photons here.
« Last Edit: 19/03/2016 16:19:54 by Craig W. Thomson »

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #244 on: 19/03/2016 18:51:11 »
Thebox just ignore them. Their only aim seems to be to pollute your thread. Who knows, it may be the same person using two usernames and talking to themselves. Let them get on with it. It is getting very boring now.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #245 on: 19/03/2016 21:57:34 »
For a plane wave it is understood that the magnetic and electric fields both extend to infinity in both perpendicular directions.
False, just on the premise of Zeno's Paradox alone. I don't even need to go into the complex mathematics in great detail. Gravity is a field. Part of the math needed to understand how gravity works is that it falls off as a square of distance from the gravitational source. Nothing terribly complicated about that math. So, you are talking about a "summable series," which is finite. That's a pretty simple math concept as well. That's what I've learned. Fields are an example of a summable series, not an example of infinity.

What's that you said? "Ah so instead your argument is that the theory and mathematics specifically designed to describe the propagation of light (and any wave motion in general) doesn't actually describe the propagation of light. Honestly this argument isn't really any better than the other one."

Let me clarify: Magnetic, electric and gravitational fields diminish with distance, that is. I don't want you to go off on a tangent about color charge and quarks. Still talking about photons here.

By mathematical definition a plane wave is a wave in which all planes perpendicular to the direction of travel have completely uniform electric and magnetic fields. It is why true plane waves aren't physically possible and only approximations to actual waves that exist under very strict circumstances. The way the strength of a field varies with distance from the source depends entirely on the shape of the source.

http://bolvan.ph.utexas.edu/~vadim/Classes/15s/ContinuousCharges.pdf <- Here is some information on how the electric fields of various charge distributions vary with distance from the distribution. You'll note a lot of variation and that sometimes the equation for the electric field strength contains no variable for distance which means it is constant everywhere. Now that requires an infinite source but again this is just an approximation and only approximates the real world under very strict conditions (i.e. when the distance between you and a charged metal plate is much less than the length and width of the plate). The point that I'm trying to get through to you here is that basically all of physics is about finding appropriate approximations that give the correct answers to problems that can't be solved analytically. In doing that one often uses no physical concepts such as infinite charge distributions. It doesn't make the math wrong nor does it make it completely inapplicable. You just have to remember what specific conditions allowed you to make the approximation and restrict yourself accordingly. For a human very very far from a source of spherical waves plane waves are a good approximation because the radius of the spherical surface is so large the waves look like a flat plane to a human scale observer and the electric and magnetic fields are constant everywhere on that plane. Thus the human observer is completely justified in making the plane wave approximation as he will get the same answers (within the margin of error for any measurement) for any problems specifically on his scale in his lab using the approximation as he would taking into account the actual spherical nature of the waves. If you don't understand how and why approximations are used and how to connect them to the physical reality then you really have no chance of understanding physics.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #246 on: 20/03/2016 14:28:28 »


By mathematical definition a plane wave is a wave in which all planes perpendicular to the direction of travel have completely uniform electric and magnetic fields. It is why true plane waves aren't physically possible and only approximations to actual waves that exist under very strict circumstances. The way the strength of a field varies with distance from the source depends entirely on the shape of the source.


You will see plane wave when you die on the heart monitor screen.


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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #247 on: 20/03/2016 14:30:26 »
Thebox just ignore them. Their only aim seems to be to pollute your thread. Who knows, it may be the same person using two usernames and talking to themselves. Let them get on with it. It is getting very boring now.
At least I'm talking about science. You're making up hypotheses about me that aren't true.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=craig%20w%20thomson

That's me, and I don't appreciate people making false accusations about me. If you're bored and not getting your fill of science here, I suggest you go read a book.

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Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #248 on: 20/03/2016 14:39:13 »
If you don't understand how and why approximations are used and how to connect them to the physical reality then you really have no chance of understanding physics.
Again, I don't need you to tell me what I already know:

"A mathematical model is never a completely accurate representation of a physical situation-it is an idealization. A good model simplified reality enough to permit mathematical calculations but is accurate enough to provide valuable conclusions. It is important to realize the limitations of the model."

That's from the Calculus Early Transcendentals textbook on my desk, and it's a lot less wordy than your verion you just posted. If you want to be a teacher, go get a teaching certification and be a teacher, but quit forcing lessons on me that I DON'T NEED.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: TheBox on black holes
« Reply #249 on: 20/03/2016 23:48:05 »
Again, I don't need you to tell me what I already know:

"A mathematical model is never a completely accurate representation of a physical situation-it is an idealization. A good model simplified reality enough to permit mathematical calculations but is accurate enough to provide valuable conclusions. It is important to realize the limitations of the model."

That's from the Calculus Early Transcendentals textbook on my desk, and it's a lot less wordy than your verion you just posted. If you want to be a teacher, go get a teaching certification and be a teacher, but quit forcing lessons on me that I DON'T NEED.

Either you understand that quote and thus you knew that the post I previously responded to was absolutely wrong or you don't understand that quote and thus you didn't know that previous post of your was wrong. So your choices now are you understand and you purposefully said something you knew was wrong to avoid admitting that I was correct or you didn't (and perhaps still don't) understand. Honestly if you find it so offensive that someone would attempt to correct your misunderstandings and help you learn something through rational discourse and evidence then maybe you don't belong on a science forum.