# Can gravity really interact with itself?

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#### jeffreyH

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##### Can gravity really interact with itself?
« on: 13/03/2016 11:14:02 »
I have seen it stated that since the gravitational field has energy it can produce gravity just like mass does. Is this necessarily true?
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#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #1 on: 13/03/2016 12:00:27 »
That is a really interesting question Jeff!

On the basis that we already know the gravitational field has an effect on the phenomenon of time, a faster rate of time in a gravitational field 'could' also be viewed as an 'acceleration' of gravity, on the basis of - IF one were to 'imagine' just for the heck of it, that an increasing gravitational field caused an increase in the rate of time, rather than a decrease...then it 'would indeed' be possible to view the phenomenon of time itself as being purely a byproduct of energy!

This would give an explanation of a clock (of mass) ticking faster in elevation due to additional potential energy - and give a time base for the phenomenon of light as being gravitational field 'energy' related, whereby light experiences a 'slowing' of time in a reducing gravitational field, due to a 'reduction' in gravitational energy.

This notion affords gravity a much more plausible means to interact with it's own energy.  I personally feel that to state gravity itself as being able to produce gravity, is a double booking of gravity...  While I can appreciate that a physics phenomenon may take on a split role in the universe, in that it does more than one job, I really find that I cannot 'get with' the idea of a phenomenon that is, in part, the causation of its own self...

I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say more 'conventionally' on the matter...
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#### puppypower

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #2 on: 13/03/2016 12:54:16 »
If I drop a rock and the rock falls to the earth, the gravitational potential of the rock lowers. If gravity is a force, like the other forces of nature, the rock falling should be exothermic and give off energy? As an analogy, if an electron on a hydrogen atom falls one energy level; lowering EM potential, the electron gives off energy. This is the nature of force and energy.

The question is, what is the nature of the energy, that the lowering of gravitational potential, will give off? In the case of the electron falling one energy level, the energy given off is a photon. This photon can exist for a long time and/or it can be absorbed by another hydrogen electron to gain the same amount of energy. If gravity works the same way, the exothermic output or energy given off by the lowering of gravitational potential, should be reflected in anti-gravity looking affects. These affects might be immediate or might even appear later, at a distance, due to a time delay; speed of light limit.

I am not saying the inferred affect is anti-gravity, but it should cause the potential of gravity to increase, elsewhere. A photon that causes an electron in hydrogen to get excited is not called anti-EM even if the affect is what anti-EM would do. The anti-gravity looking affect would be due to energy and not anti-mass, but both will sort of look the same in terms of affect.

For example, one possible observation would be the induced rotation of a collapsing mass field. The collapse of mass causes gravity to lower potential, while the exothermic output from this loss of gravitational potential might be responsible for the rotation and resultant centrifugal force, whose force vector goes opposite the direction of gravity. The rotation cause things to want to fly outward as the mass is attracted inward.

Another opposing force vector, created by the lowering of gravitational potential, is connected to pressure. The gravity vector points to the center of gravity, while pressure force vector pushes outward. The pressure due to gravity will then cause the phases of material to change, due to the induced changes in the other three forces of nature. Metallic iron in the core of the earth is high energy iron with higher EM potential.

Another possible affect might be on distant mass; the expanding universe. Not all the exothermic output is trapped in the mass that is collapsing. Some will be broadcast outward as energy. In this case, the rate of universe expansion would be proportional to rate of the total mass lowering mass potential. This would calculated at the level of galaxies, since these are largest units of massive collapse before things begin to expand.

Mass at a distance will attract other mass, while the energy field from the exothermic output, will be a vector that pushes the matter apart through rotation, pressure and expansion. The moon moving around the earth has two cancelling vectors.

Nobody has ever measured/characterized the exothermic energy quanta from a loss of gravitational potential. This is not assumed to exist, thereby creating an energy balance problem if it did exist. This energy output due to gravity may well be the source of what is called dark energy. Like dark energy, it can be inferred, by affects that look like like anti-gravity, but which are not anti-gravity, since these affects would  involve energy and not anti-matter.

Dark matter causes an amplification in local gravity. One way to generate this from the exothermic energy of gravity, is if the exothermic energy, is not outputting into the universe, normally. For example, if energy can't escape a black hole, the black hole would  lose the outward energy vector. Through enemy conservation, it can still do internal repulsion things at even higher levels; pressure and rotation, but it can't repel mass at a distance. This net affect will look like extra regional gravity.

To answer the topic question we need to explore the nature of the exothermic output of gravity, which can be inferred by affect, but which has yet to be seen in the lab.
« Last Edit: 13/03/2016 12:59:53 by puppypower »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #3 on: 13/03/2016 20:14:07 »
Quote from: puppypower
If gravity is a force, like the other forces of nature, the rock falling should be exothermic and give off energy?
Energy can be transformed from one type to another. In this case, gravitational potential energy can be transformed into kinetic energy of the rock.
Another example is the gravitational potential energy of water in a dam can be transformed into electrical energy by a hydropower turbine.

Quote
Nobody has ever measured/characterized the exothermic energy quanta from a loss of gravitational potential.
- People who run hydropower systems characterize it continually, as they want to get paid.
- The people who designed space capsules and the Space Shuttle characterized it very carefully, as they did not want to roast their astronauts.
- Geologists characterized a falling meteorite carefully, as they wanted to find out what killed the dinosaurs
- More recently, scientists characterized the meteor that fell over Chelyabinsk by examining video from car dashcams and security footage.

Quote
Another possible affect might be on distant mass
- The orbit of the Earth around the Sun has a small impact on the orbit of Jupiter.
- The orbit of Jupiter has a bigger impact on the orbit of the Earth.
- It has been known for many years that closely orbiting neutron stars radiate gravitational waves, as predicted by Einstein
- The recent announcement of the detection of gravitational waves represents an impact of gravity as a distance. Gravity waves propagate away from the colliding black holes.

Quote
the expanding universe... Dark matter... Black holes
If you think that gravity is a great unknown, then you may think that several other unknowns are caused by it.
However, gravity is fairly well understood, and yet these mysteries remain.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #4 on: 13/03/2016 20:20:36 »
I think I need to find some papers on this subject.
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#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #5 on: 13/03/2016 20:22:29 »
Quote from: Jeffrey
I have seen it stated that since the gravitational field has energy it can produce gravity just like mass does. Is this necessarily true?

My understanding is that GR says that gravity creates gravity.  I've been looking for where I got this idea and can't find at the moment.  It has come up in discussion on other forums, and seems to be accepted widely.

An interesting point that arises from it must be: Why do we not observe run-away gravity?  Why doesn't every massive body spontaneously collapse into a black hole?
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#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #6 on: 13/03/2016 20:28:54 »
Quote from: Jeffrey
I have seen it stated that since the gravitational field has energy it can produce gravity just like mass does. Is this necessarily true?

My understanding is that GR says that gravity creates gravity.  I've been looking for where I got this idea and can't find at the moment.  It has come up in discussion on other forums, and seems to be accepted widely.

An interesting point that arises from it must be: Why do we not observe run-away gravity?  Why doesn't every massive body spontaneously collapse into a black hole?

You have hit the nail right on the head.
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#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #7 on: 13/03/2016 20:53:44 »
Quote from: Jeffrey
I have seen it stated that since the gravitational field has energy it can produce gravity just like mass does. Is this necessarily true?

My understanding is that GR says that gravity creates gravity.  I've been looking for where I got this idea and can't find at the moment.  It has come up in discussion on other forums, and seems to be accepted widely.

An interesting point that arises from it must be: Why do we not observe run-away gravity?  Why doesn't every massive body spontaneously collapse into a black hole?

You have hit the nail right on the head.

I think the issue here is that the amount of mass that a gravitational field has is so very small compared to the mass that generated the gravitational field in the first place. Infinite sums often converge to a finite number, as long as the bit getting added each time is sufficiently diminishing. For instance:
$$\sum\limits_{i=1}^\infty {2^{-i}}$$ = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 ... = 1

In this case that's basically the type of summation we have, except instead of 2–i it's a huge number–i, so the increase is essentially negligible. (the added mass is much less than half the mass that generated the field in the first place)

« Last Edit: 13/03/2016 21:00:13 by chiralSPO »

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #8 on: 13/03/2016 21:49:27 »
I have found a page which does go into some detail. For those interested here is the link.

http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/gravity_of_gravity

This is by Markus Pössel of the Max Planck Institute of Astronomy so is a reliable source.
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#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #9 on: 14/03/2016 01:18:34 »
Good link that!  Not quite as informative as a good popular science novel but still good...

You see... the whole thing about the mass energy equivalence idea is one of my main irks concerning GR.

If you add temperature to mass, it is supposed to weigh an immeasurably small amount more than it does when it's cold, but is this just a mathematical consequence of GR, or is it an actual reality?  Kind of hard to say one way or the other with absolute definitiveness while being unable to actually measure the phenomenon, aye!  (Presumably it is possible to measure an increase in frequency for a particle that is heated?)

If you add energy to mass under the remit of e=mc2, and by holding the mass aspect as constant, log the supposed increases in the mass as a separate issue... does this tiny increasing amount relate at-all to the frequency of the heated particle...proportionally perhaps - or by how much the frequency increases for a caesium atom undergoing elevation via decreases in the gravitational field?  Or maybe relate to the amount by which potential energy increases for a caesium atom in a decreasing gravitational field?
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#### lightarrow

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #10 on: 14/03/2016 17:17:43 »
I have seen it stated that since the gravitational field has energy it can produce gravity just like mass does. Is this necessarily true?
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
Fixed.  []

--
lightarrow

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #11 on: 14/03/2016 17:44:59 »
I have seen it stated that since the gravitational field has energy it can produce gravity just like mass does. Is this necessarily true?
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
Fixed.  []

--
lightarrow

Run that past me again.
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#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #12 on: 14/03/2016 18:01:32 »
Not so fast lightarrow...

GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields, and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?

The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.

What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?  That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
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#### evan_au

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #13 on: 14/03/2016 19:31:48 »
Quote from: lightarrow
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
I am no expert (and I can't read German), but I heard that Einstein originally produced General Relativity as a gravitational field theory, inspired by Maxwell's electromagnetic field theory.

The geometric interpretation and application of Riemann Geometry came soon after, when people realized that Einstein's equations were similar to those developed for quite different purposes - which opened up a new set of mathematical tools which could be applied to General Relativity.

Perhaps the analytical advantages of the geometric interpretation have overshadowed the original field theory?

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #14 on: 15/03/2016 13:13:04 »
I think you are on track there Evan.  It's not GR that's at fault, it's later interpretations.

http://www.quantum-field-theory.net/einstein-didnt-say/
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#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #15 on: 15/03/2016 14:16:22 »
I've just received an email from Dr Christopher Baird, which I copy below.

Thanks for your feedback and your questions! Gravity does not create gravity. Mass and energy create gravity. Since gravity is the curvature of spacetime, and since this curvature is smooth, then if there is some gravity at one spot there must be a little gravity at a neighboring spot. But, ultimately it's some mass or energy that is creating the gravity at both spots. Another way of saying this is that mass creates a gravitational field that extends out to infinity in all directions and weakens with distance. If there were no mass or energy anywhere, there would be no gravity because gravity can't create gravity.

The strength of gravity is proportional to how much mass/energy is present and how close you are to this mass/energy. The higher the mass, the stronger the gravity. Also, the closer you are, the stronger the gravity. A black hole only forms when the gravity gets strong enough that light cannot escape. Moons, stars, asteroids, hammers and other objects do not have enough mass to create enough gravity to make a black hole. In principle, if you took a moon and compacted all of its mass small enough, you could get a black hole because even though it has a low mass, you can get very close to all of this mass at once when it is compacted. But this can't really happen in real life.

Does that add to the confusion? []
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#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #16 on: 15/03/2016 16:53:33 »
Bravo Bill - another great link!
(Edit: in reply to your further post: clearly a gravitational field cannot exist in the absence of any mass at-all, therefore gravity 'must' be a function of mass?)

So - on the basis that a theory of gravity 'needs' to describe the gravitational field of space, as well as the relationship between bodies of mass, and the geometry of curvature, here's a bit of 'inside out' thinking... for what it's worth.

By describing the gravitational field via redshift, blueshift considerations...and, on the basis that we 'must be' viewing light blue shifting towards us from its 'most' redshifted position in space, (ie: the point of weakest gravitational field), determining the time base for light in space via its 'reduction' in frequency in a reducing gravitational field - because the proportional length of a wave length is time related, not distance related - we can find that an acceleration of gravity in an increasing gravitational field can be found within the acceleration of the time base.  This causes light to follow a geometry of curvature in space that is purely related to the phenomenon of light propagating across space, at the speed of light, but taking a longer, or shorter amount of 'time' to cover the same unit of distance.

This basically adheres to the Newtonian description of gravity, while adding the 4th dimension of time, to the 3 dimensions of space in a geometry that 'follows' the inverse square law remit of the gravitational field, via the inverse square law remit of the propagation of light.

Needless to say, because light is a part of the description of the electromagnetic, this will mean that, hey presto... Maxwells equations 'should' naturally become aligned 'within' the gravitational field!

You say that GR is not at fault?  Whether you describe GR via curvature or field, neither link the Maxwells equations with gravity!
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#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #17 on: 15/03/2016 17:50:42 »
I think the problem here is if we have a force carrier it will have energy. Just like the photon. If gravity can be modelled as a gluon like field then a graviton must be able to emit a graviton. Yet the earth has not collapsed.
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#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #18 on: 15/03/2016 18:40:31 »
Well Jeff, I'm following your logic... but, why does there 'have' to be a force carrier?  Can't mass be the force instigator, and gravity be a form of energy that merely dissipates across space via the inverse square law?  This renders space, or in fact 'distance' itself as being the energy, or force carrier.  Then, as light dissipates via the inverse square law, it's energy can be explained via the energy of the gravitational field affecting the light...  This being based on light, gravity and all forms of energy being massless.  This is an entirely logical notion that negates the necessity for a graviton... that, at its largest, is vastly humungous (or so I recall Evan stating in a post elsewhere... I 'think' he did anyway, eek, sorry Evan if I have misquoted you here), which, as yet, we neglect to detect.
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#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #19 on: 15/03/2016 20:32:47 »
Since gluons impose confinement then it may be that the graviton would only act like a gluon under extreme conditions. This could satisfy both viewpoints.
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#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #20 on: 15/03/2016 20:38:43 »
Also at high energies and microscopic scales this could be the mechanism that unifies all the forces into one as they were before the big bang.
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#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #21 on: 15/03/2016 21:35:24 »
Ok, well IF your commentary is following on from what I just said (not sure it is mind ) ...then - mass is acting as a gluon function, distance being the 'graviton' is not expanding under the remit of redshift, but instead is in fact contracting - therefore the gluon function of mass reduces the 'graviton as a distance' 'size', leading to a contracted universe consisting of a galaxy of black holes, that eventually merge into each other, whereas all the forces of the universe would be combined as one, in a singular black hole - this constituting your pre-big bang scenario.  Whereas the singular black hole, having no equivalent gravitational force acting upon it, loses the 'gluon confining' feature, and all of the mass of the universe is reborn into a sea of particles (post-big bang) via accretion disks as the black hole entirely empties itself to extinction (Big Bang).

I realise I've now completely bastardised particle terminology to portray my analogy, and also most currently held physics notions...
Oh what fun!!!  I've been a very naughty girl, I know, tut, tut, and shall now retire to leave you the floor... They'll put this in new theories otherwise
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#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #22 on: 16/03/2016 10:40:08 »
Well Jeff, I'm following your logic... but, why does there 'have' to be a force carrier?  Can't mass be the force instigator, and gravity be a form of energy that merely dissipates across space via the inverse square law?  This renders space, or in fact 'distance' itself as being the energy, or force carrier.  Then, as light dissipates via the inverse square law, it's energy can be explained via the energy of the gravitational field affecting the light...  This being based on light, gravity and all forms of energy being massless.  This is an entirely logical notion that negates the necessity for a graviton... that, at its largest, is vastly humungous (or so I recall Evan stating in a post elsewhere... I 'think' he did anyway, eek, sorry Evan if I have misquoted you here), which, as yet, we neglect to detect.

The Earth has not collapsed because of density and rotation. We can't look at the gravitational field as been any sort of positive energy, it is not a field per'say ,  it is a direct equal and  invert ''work'' force , opposite to repulsion.
It is measured the exact same way as light using the inverse square law, but in reality it is transverse.
There is NO gravity curvature, it is a direct linearity between M1 and M2.  Curvature is just the path of motion, no more relative than a ''sauce pan'' star formation.
Gravity is the entirety of space, a gravity singularity,  mass is denser than space, all denser mass is attracted to denser mass through the gravity singularity made of the same but a less dense mass of space.
Space interacts with space, denser space interacts with denser space(mass of objects),

When the logic suggests there is no other answer, the illogical choice must be the answer, negative something as to be attracted to a negative something, gravity CANNOT be positive , only expansion work can be positive.

The under has to be logically  true -

+←→+

-→←-

-→←+

+→←-

A+A=>r

B+B=<r

(A+B)+(A+B)=r

Metal expansion, gas expansion, Universal expansion all has to be based on this true logic. Choose to ignore me, delete or move the post, it still won't change the facts you seem to be all ignoring.

This is going to be my last efforts.

[attachment=21193]

« Last Edit: 16/03/2016 10:55:13 by Thebox »

#### puppypower

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #23 on: 16/03/2016 11:36:41 »
I asked the question, in my last writing, does a lowering of gravitational potential give off energy; photon/wave style energy, similar the way a lowering of the EM, the strong and weak nuclear forces give off photon style energy? If we take two charges that attract, they will also move toward each other; kinetic energy, they can be used for work, while still giving off EM energy. The energy I am talking about is not the kinetic energy component of motion, but an exothermic photon/wave component similar to EM energy, but connected to the gravitational force?

Dark energy has never been seen directly in the lab. We infer dark energy from affect. This photon style energy given off by gravity has also not been seen in the lab. Which is why it may seem odd or speculative. But there are affects, just like with dark energy, from which it can be inferred. I am assuming dark energy does not have special rules, due to lobbying and campaign contributions, which nothing else can use. Is that a good assumption?

For example, when a planet rotates, which seems to parallel gravity, the induced centrifugal force vector, of the spin, is opposite the direction of gravity. This vector acts like an anti-gravity affect, although this is not anti-gravity, per se. One could argue dark energy is actually the energy given off due to the loss of gravitational potential, since both types of energy create what appears to be anti-gravity affects; expansion and rotations. When we orbit the earth in the space-station, there is zero gravity even though there is gravity at that distance.

The difference between the theory of dark energy and the theory of the exothermic output of gravity is the exothermic energy of gravity has tangible precedents and parallels; other three forces. This actually takes less of a leap of faith, since it requires less  dissociation from tangible parallels one can see in the lab.

If we go back to a rotation of the earth, due to the theorized exothermic output of gravity, what is added to the matter of the earth is kinetic energy. This means velocity and special relativity, which compounds changes in time and distance due to GR. These SR changes will go in same direction as GR. To the untrained eye, this would look like gravity has added a small amount of extra gravity to itself, if we only look at impact on time; clocks.

The impact on the space-time well, due to the SR component, added to the GR component, is to make the space-time well a little wider at the top. The well remains wider and tapers as we go down the well to the bottom. It adds little depth to the well. This fatter space-time profile may be mistaken for extra mass; dark matter.
« Last Edit: 16/03/2016 11:55:30 by puppypower »

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #24 on: 16/03/2016 13:20:03 »
Quote from: TheBox
Gravity is the entirety of space, a gravity singularity,  mass is denser than space, all denser mass is attracted to denser mass through the gravity singularity made of the same but a less dense mass of space.

It's easy to bandy about words like "singularity", but what do you actually mean in this case?
There never was nothing.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #25 on: 16/03/2016 13:52:40 »
Quote from: TheBox
Gravity is the entirety of space, a gravity singularity,  mass is denser than space, all denser mass is attracted to denser mass through the gravity singularity made of the same but a less dense mass of space.

It's easy to bandy about words like "singularity", but what do you actually mean in this case?

How to explain it is not easy when you already have a definition, and to explain it I would need to go off topic ''slightly''.

For gravity to exist between things the important factor is that the something's must have Physical dimensions, without this fundamental thought only exists two points of 0 value, e.g a line without boundary or dimensions ,(just consider the dimension of the ''invisible man'' (n-dimensional), nothing or an entirety of vision boundary.

The inverse square law from either observers perspective contracts relative to increased radius apart, eventually the line between observers becomes this ''singularity'', neither observer having any affect on each other any more.
The length of k=1 becomes k=0 a singularity.   If we consider space-time only exists as a linearity between M1 and M2, then outside of this linearity exists k=0 , then consider K=0 interacts with itself.
e.g empty a full box to fill it with light and space,

Then gravity interacting with itself makes sense, space itself can be displaced by solidity, but space always contracts back to form. There is never a ''gap'' in space.

So this is what I mean by singularity, it has several factors.

(added- I have just considered that when the Earth is nearer the Sun , the Caesium atom by rights should dilate at ground state, the gravity of the Sun being stronger the nearer we are to it . It would be interesting if the Caesium still remains constant at ground state showing any change of rate would h ave to be then acceleration related rather than gravitational influence)

added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

« Last Edit: 16/03/2016 14:58:48 by Thebox »

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #26 on: 18/03/2016 18:02:23 »
Jeffrey, going back to your link: http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/gravity_of_gravity and the statement that gravity begets gravity;

Quote
One reason why the physics of general relativity is much more difficult than that of Newton's theory of gravity or the theory of electrodynamics is a property called non-linearity. In short, gravity can beget further gravity - where gravitational systems are concerned, the whole is not the sum of its parts.

Christopher Baird (email) says:

Quote
…… they are being sloppy with their wording. All this website is saying is that gravity is ultimately non-linear, which is correct. It is not saying that gravity can be created out of nowhere…..
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#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #27 on: 18/03/2016 18:08:02 »
Quote from: TheBox
added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

The space must already be there, or the dice would not be able to occupy it.
There never was nothing.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #28 on: 18/03/2016 20:49:14 »
Quote from: TheBox
added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

The space must already be there, or the dice would not be able to occupy it.

#### jeffreyH

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• 4195
• The graviton sucks
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #29 on: 18/03/2016 21:50:01 »
Jeffrey, going back to your link: http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/gravity_of_gravity and the statement that gravity begets gravity;

Quote
One reason why the physics of general relativity is much more difficult than that of Newton's theory of gravity or the theory of electrodynamics is a property called non-linearity. In short, gravity can beget further gravity - where gravitational systems are concerned, the whole is not the sum of its parts.

Christopher Baird (email) says:

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…… they are being sloppy with their wording. All this website is saying is that gravity is ultimately non-linear, which is correct. It is not saying that gravity can be created out of nowhere…..

It is a situation that can be argued either way. The energies are so low that it would be almost impossible to verify either view experimentally. Gravity wave observations may provide clues over time.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

#### evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• 4319
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #30 on: 18/03/2016 23:59:39 »
Quote from: TheBox
For gravity to exist between things the important factor is that the something's must have Physical dimensions
This is not accurate - the physical dimensions do not matter in most instances.

The Earth orbits the Sun in 365.24 days.
• If the Sun were turned into a neutron star of the same mass, only 10km across, the Earth would maintain the exact same orbit.
• If the Sun were turned into a black hole of the same mass, only 6km across, the Earth would maintain the exact same orbit.
• There is believed to be a singularity at the center of a black hole, which has no dimensions. If the mass of the Sun were compressed into this zero size and infinite density, Earth could maintain the same orbit (making a lot of assumptions here about "naked singularities").
It is easy to show that your weight on Earth is the same if the Earth's mass were concentrated at a point at the center of the Earth. (Well, it was easy for my physics teacher; I would need to think about it for a while...)

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The inverse square law from either observers perspective contracts relative to increased radius apart, eventually the line between observers becomes this ''singularity'', neither observer having any affect on each other any more.
This is what confuses your readers - you are talking about the gravitational force decreasing with distance, until it becomes effectively zero at large distances. You then call this zero force "a singularity".

There is a perfectly good definition of "singularity" in mathematics and physics, meaning "infinity", eg "infinite density at the center of a black hole", or "infinite gravitational force at the center of a black hole".

Here you have taken a word meaning "infinite force", and used it for "zero force". (...or maybe you meant infinite distance?)

#### lightarrow

• Neilep Level Member
• 4586
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #31 on: 19/03/2016 11:22:36 »
Not so fast lightarrow...
GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields,
No. Where would you observe such "gravitational fields" if you use GR?
Quote
and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?
It's just a name. IIRC, Einstein initially  called them "equations of the gravitational field" but then he realized it was wrong and so changed the name in "field equations of gravity" or something alike.
Quote
The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.
And what does it relate with what I wrote about GR?
Quote
What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?
?
It's writing "gravitational field" which is wrong in GR because is to interprete GR in an incorrect way.
Quote
That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
You're wrong. The existence of a "gravitational field" is not a "fact", is just "a theory-dependent interpretation".
According to newtonian theory, gravity is a field, according to GR is not.

--
lightarrow

#### lightarrow

• Neilep Level Member
• 4586
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #32 on: 19/03/2016 11:37:15 »
Quote from: lightarrow
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
I am no expert (and I can't read German), but I heard that Einstein originally produced General Relativity as a gravitational field theory, inspired by Maxwell's electromagnetic field theory.

The geometric interpretation and application of Riemann Geometry came soon after, when people realized that Einstein's equations were similar to those developed for quite different purposes - which opened up a new set of mathematical tools which could be applied to General Relativity.

Perhaps the analytical advantages of the geometric interpretation have overshadowed the original field theory?
I only know that Einstein tried a lot but at the end, only the geometrization of spacetime worked, all the other methods didn't.

--
lightarrow

#### jeffreyH

• Global Moderator
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• The graviton sucks
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #33 on: 19/03/2016 12:43:39 »
Not so fast lightarrow...
GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields,
No. Where would you observe such "gravitational fields" if you use GR?
Quote
and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?
It's just a name. IIRC, Einstein initially  called them "equations of the gravitational field" but then he realized it was wrong and so changed the name in "field equations of gravity" or something alike.
Quote
The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.
And what does it relate with what I wrote about GR?
Quote
What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?
?
It's writing "gravitational field" which is wrong in GR because is to interprete GR in an incorrect way.
Quote
That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
You're wrong. The existence of a "gravitational field" is not a "fact", is just "a theory-dependent interpretation".
According to newtonian theory, gravity is a field, according to GR is not.

--
lightarrow

Ah, now I see what you mean. That's a very good point.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

#### jeffreyH

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• 4195
• The graviton sucks
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #34 on: 19/03/2016 12:47:25 »
Quote from: lightarrow
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
I am no expert (and I can't read German), but I heard that Einstein originally produced General Relativity as a gravitational field theory, inspired by Maxwell's electromagnetic field theory.

The geometric interpretation and application of Riemann Geometry came soon after, when people realized that Einstein's equations were similar to those developed for quite different purposes - which opened up a new set of mathematical tools which could be applied to General Relativity.

Perhaps the analytical advantages of the geometric interpretation have overshadowed the original field theory?
I only know that Einstein tried a lot but at the end, only the geometrization of spacetime worked, all the other methods didn't.

--
lightarrow

Do you have any links to or titles of reference material? I am keen to pursue this.
Fixation on the Einstein papers is a good definition of OCD.

#### timey

• Neilep Level Member
• 1580
• Self educated since age 11 at "University of Life"
##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #35 on: 19/03/2016 16:55:57 »
Not so fast lightarrow...
GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields,
No. Where would you observe such "gravitational fields" if you use GR?
Quote
and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?
It's just a name. IIRC, Einstein initially  called them "equations of the gravitational field" but then he realized it was wrong and so changed the name in "field equations of gravity" or something alike.
Quote
The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.
And what does it relate with what I wrote about GR?
Quote
What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?
?
It's writing "gravitational field" which is wrong in GR because is to interprete GR in an incorrect way.
Quote
That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
You're wrong. The existence of a "gravitational field" is not a "fact", is just "a theory-dependent interpretation".
According to newtonian theory, gravity is a field, according to GR is not.

--
lightarrow

How do the Maxwell equations relate to what your saying about GR?

Well, quite clearly they """don't""" relate to GR, and this is in fact a problem!!!

Einstein set out to achieve a theory of gravity, armed with Newtons theory of gravity, Maxwells equations of electromagnetic, and his own Special Relativity...  BUT... under the remit of GR as is, the link between Maxwell's equations and GR isn't possible... Einstein did not actually achieve his goal!

The problem with GR not relating to Maxwell's equations directly results in the lacking of a theory of quantum gravitation, resulting in our 2 best working theories, these being GR and Quantum, rendered as incompatible with each other, resulting in our lack of understanding in the origins of our universe.

Most theoretical physicists have come to the conclusion, especially since the Higgs came in at 125.9 GeV, ruling out both the anticipated, and hoped for Super Symmetry theory at 115 GeV... and ruling out the Multi Verse theory at 140 GeV, that something somewhere in our current understanding of physics is seriously askew!

I personally believe that it is the whole mass charge equivalence considerations that are throwing everything off.  If one considers that mass is mass, and energy is energy, whereby the phenomenon of time is a byproduct of energy, then the working parameters of GR look much different when considering length and distance observations as being 'time' related...
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...