Does consciousness exist after death?

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #100 on: 29/06/2016 18:21:41 »
I will use the book authored by one who would know.

 consciousness:
eccl. 9:5
the living are conscious they will die,  the dead are conscious of nothing
ps. 146:4
his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, his thoughts perish
eccl. 3:19
There is the same eventuality for man and beast. They come from the dust and return to the dust.

soul (synonym for living creature):
gen. 2:7
the man formed from the dust and with the breath of life became a living soul
gen. 1:21
animals referred to as souls
ezek. 18:4
the soul that is sinning will die
____________________________________________________________________

Personal knowledge

 near death experience:
These events are rare exceptions to typical deaths, and if actual recovery from death would be equivalent to a resurrection. The explanation is more likely an incomplete and inaccurate clinical definition of death. Medical science is relatively new to humanity.
The experiences of the subjects involved are real, but confined to the mind. The fact that they have any awareness of bright lights, departed family members, etc. is proof they are not dead. Their visions are conditioned by past testimonials and ignorance concerning death. There is a parallel regarding mass suggestion with victims of alien abductions. The immortality of the soul was one (false) idea to circumvent death.


"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #101 on: 29/06/2016 18:46:44 »

"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.

The book is a work of fiction, so no matter what passages are chosen it doesn't much matter at all, does it.  Not to mention all that's ever done is cherry picking when it comes to quoting that work of fiction, be honest with yourself here.

And it's a bit hypocritical to call the poster out for using a religious basis, when they did so SPECIFICALLY to address your injecting of religion into the debate no?  Were you not the one who repeatedly in this thread has injecting religion?  Did you really just try to admonish that poster for it?  Merely because this time the use of religion didn't suit your purpose?  I mean, just, wow...

And furthermore, you didn't experience any 'reality' outside of this physical reality.  You experienced a powerful mental perception that you perceive as having been reality.  But reality has a very distinct meaning.  The thing has to actually be real.  Unless you can show even the slightest shred of evidence or otherwise that this magical fairy other dimension exists, then what about it could possibly be constituted as real?  If something is real, shouldn't there be even the slightest shred of evidence of its existence?  I mean, anywhere at all?  I mean, i can understand an argument of "you can't prove it's not" so to speak, since ya can't prove a negative.  But a claim that it is needs to be backed up with even the slightest shred of evidence at all.  And as of yet, in our entire history of existence, there is zero credibility or evidence pertaining to this magical dimension you speak of.  Literally zero.

And lastly, the poster did answer the question themselves.  Quite directly actually.  In fact, it's right there in what you quoted.  I'm not sure how you missed it.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #102 on: 02/07/2016 18:01:55 »

"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.

The book is a work of fiction, so no matter what passages are chosen it doesn't much matter at all, does it.  Not to mention all that's ever done is cherry picking when it comes to quoting that work of fiction, be honest with yourself here.

And it's a bit hypocritical to call the poster out for using a religious basis, when they did so SPECIFICALLY to address your injecting of religion into the debate no?  Were you not the one who repeatedly in this thread has injecting religion?  Did you really just try to admonish that poster for it?  Merely because this time the use of religion didn't suit your purpose?  I mean, just, wow...

And furthermore, you didn't experience any 'reality' outside of this physical reality.  You experienced a powerful mental perception that you perceive as having been reality.  But reality has a very distinct meaning.  The thing has to actually be real.  Unless you can show even the slightest shred of evidence or otherwise that this magical fairy other dimension exists, then what about it could possibly be constituted as real?  If something is real, shouldn't there be even the slightest shred of evidence of its existence?  I mean, anywhere at all?  I mean, i can understand an argument of "you can't prove it's not" so to speak, since ya can't prove a negative.  But a claim that it is needs to be backed up with even the slightest shred of evidence at all.  And as of yet, in our entire history of existence, there is zero credibility or evidence pertaining to this magical dimension you speak of.  Literally zero.

And lastly, the poster did answer the question themselves.  Quite directly actually.  In fact, it's right there in what you quoted.  I'm not sure how you missed it.

I experienced what I  experienced and I have absolutely no interest in anything you have to say because it is always argumentative.


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #103 on: 03/07/2016 02:07:48 »

I experienced what I  experienced and I have absolutely no interest in anything you have to say because it is always argumentative.
Do you have any interest in finding out what was actually happened to you? Was it real or just something happened in your brain? Have you ever experienced vivid dream or lucid dream?

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Offline phyti

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #104 on: 04/07/2016 19:55:57 »

"That is selective cherry picking out of scripture: in contrast there are other references to a consciousness after death in the bible, as in the case of the Apostle Paul when he was taken into the third heaven after being stoned.

Jesus reference to the rich man in hell and the poor man in heaven that spoke to each other, you simply cant speak unless you are conscious?

Lastly this thread was not started as some sort of a religious argument of which will go on forever and never reach a conclusion. it was based on the present very real experiences of people , myself included that have been clinically dead and experience a conscious reality outside of this physical reality.

So put a stop to irrelevant Bible references and actually answer the question yourself.

He wrote a letter to the Corinthian congregation, in which he describes a vision he had while still living. The vision seems to involve an introspection of his own faith, with an effort to convey his dedication to working on their behalf.
"Heaven" has varied meanings, and as usual depends on the context.

Jesus used illustrations to convey ideas to his disciples. The rich man lived a life of luxury, while Lazarus the beggar lived a life of hardship. Both are in Hades (Greek for the grave), but Lazarus with a favorable judgment and the rich man with an unfavorable judgment (his faith was his wealth). In a real "hell", a finger dipped in water is not going to provide relief! Their conversation is just part of the story.

 Consider the mind as a small volume of space where the behavior of matter is regulated by the same laws of physics as in the whole universe.

 When a person hallucinates or dreams or is under hypnosis, the images are real in the mind of the person, corresponding to real brain activity, but not corresponding to anything outside the mind.
Then there is the greatest misnomer of all, "movies"/"motion pictures", where a person watches a series of still pictures and sees objects in motion. The motion can only be a product of the mind, i.e. mental interpretation.
Add to that any type of pixel screen that displays moving images. The pixels only switch on or off or vary in color or intensity. Another case of motion by the mind.
Our experiences are real but relative to something else and not absolute. The mind is in part an image processing organism, and our knowledge is based on models/abstract images which only approximate the real world.
We observe the world indirectly (via light) and have no idea what it "really" is.

 Has anyone asked why the medical profession refers to it as "near death experience"?
 

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #105 on: 05/07/2016 09:52:23 »
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense.
What do you mean by "memories in an absolute sense" that are not "coherent"?
Quote
Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio
As it happens (checks bookshelf), I have read Damasio, and Stanislas Dehaene, Stephen Rose, Barry Gordon, and Daniel Schacter, on memory. Perhaps it is the somewhat opaque and fragmentary nature of your posts that is causing some misunderstanding, but that one looked nonsensical to me...

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #106 on: 05/07/2016 09:59:12 »
Consciousness cannot be equated to the CPU it is equated to the software which is non-material.
The computer analogy is not useful here. The empirical evidence points to consciousness being a brain process, a particular subset of the patterns of neural activity in an active brain.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #107 on: 05/07/2016 10:01:00 »
Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?
The evidence suggests #2.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #108 on: 05/07/2016 12:18:34 »
Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?
The evidence suggests #2.

What evidence, please?
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #109 on: 05/07/2016 12:48:14 »
Has anyone asked why the medical profession refers to it as "near death experience"?
Why should they ask (isn't it self-explanatory)? and why the medical profession, particularly? IIRC it was French philosopher & psychologist Victor Egger who coined the term at the end of the 19th century, and it was taken up by American psychiatrist Ray Moody in 1975.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2016 12:52:12 by dlorde »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #110 on: 05/07/2016 12:51:36 »
What evidence, please?
The evidence that all the conscious beings we know of are products of evolution and are constructed out of materials common in the universe. So, to the extent that conscious beings are the result of processes governed by the laws of the universe, we are creations of the universe. This is not to imply any purpose or intent, simply the effects of the 'unwinding' of a very low entropy starting state to (eventually) a high-entropy end state.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2016 12:58:05 by dlorde »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #111 on: 05/07/2016 17:06:23 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-x1boYG1L8
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #112 on: 05/07/2016 17:38:07 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

Yet Another NDE Revelation
Fixed your URL - you forgot to put it in url tags.

OK, if you'll watch this video (I recommend the whole thing, it's fascinating stuff, but for the relevant bit skip to 33 mins):

The Fundamental Nature of Reality

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #113 on: 05/07/2016 17:48:54 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-x1boYG1L8

Sorry,  but a video about one single person who really really swears he saw heaven and hell, is not enough for me to suspend belief in all fact, all logic, all science, all evidence that points to there being zero reason to believe in such things, and also zero evidence other than personal perception stories to give credibility to the notion.  This person would also swear that the world he sees is not actually entering his eyes upside down.

The mind is a very powerful thing indeed, and perception is what rules us, for we are slaves to it.  And the mind can create even far more powerful perceptions than what this gentleman experienced.  It is probably limitless what our brains could convince us was real, that in fact hadn't been.

To believe in this consciousness after death is merely to have 'faith' in something with zero actual evidence to lend credibility to its existence, and instead has mountains upon mountains of evidence against it.  To believe is to literally have to suspend belief in all that we know, all that we've learned, all the facts available, all of physics, all of science, all of logic and reasoning.  And all that is far too much for me to abandon merely because I want to have 'faith'.

The fact is that in reality, all that we know gives zero credibility to the concept.  And in fact, science has shown in so many ways that there is no god nor spirituality necessary for anything in the universe, including consciousness, to be created.  The faith is merely unnecessary.  There have been so many things that once were attributed to god, that people would've sworn could only have been explained by god, that have since been proven by science to not require him whatsoever.  God is merely the go to crutch for things we have not yet understood nor explained.  But if there was no need for god, if god was taken out of the equation, and 'faith' in him was taken out of the equation, would people still be so adamant in their beliefs in life after death?  In consciousness surviving?  I'd wager in a world in which people grew up never hearing nor thinking about god, in which religious stories written by man weren't shoved down their throats, in a world in which all they knew was science, logic and fact and the concept of god never existed, that you would have very few believing in consciousness after death.  Because all they would've known was reasoning, and logic, and facts, and science, and they'd have no reason to believe otherwise. Cause there is zero evidence of otherwise.

And if consciousness is independent in nature and concept, then why can we 'feel' where it resides?  Why when we think, do we sense it in the middle of our brains, right where the physical construct for thoughts would be?  Why would could I not think down by my feet, or my stomach?  Why wouldn't I just have an ever present sense of my consciousness without a need for me to 'feel' where it resides at all?  Furthermore, why would medications affect exactly what I think?  Why would mood, different chemical reactions and quantities within my body affect what I think?  Why are my thoughts directly related to how much sleep I have; what mood I'm in; what my state of health is; what medicines are in my body; or a multitude of other very real and physical influences?  Why is my consciousness 100% generated by those influences, chemical processes and brain activity?  Why would it not be unchanged regardless of physiology? 

Why is everything I think based on memory, which is a very physical and biological process?  Why suddenly, only when I die, would this magical fairytale concept occur?  How when I die, would suddenly all my memories, which are amino acids and other very real biological and physiological realities, become poofed into this 'energy' or whatever that would live on?  And if this didn't happen, and my memories remained with my body, how would I even know who I was?  How would this consciousness even matter without memory there for sake of identity?  What have you ever learned in science or reality whatsoever would allow these physical memories to poof into this 'energy' state?  And if consciousness were independent, this force that can transcend time and space and have this beyond the universe power, why would it need such a complex structure as the brain to physically store and process memory?  Why wouldn't that memory concept be built into this 'consciousness'?  Why isn't anything built into it?  Why is the body and brain necessary for all that it is and all it will be while on this earth?  From mood, to timing (no consciousness while we sleep), to medicinal influence, to all of it? 

Why when in this spacetime would everything it is be dependent on all that is physical and real?  Fact is, there are no logical nor reasonable answers to these questions other than "well, cause that's just the way it is!  But really, when you die, suddenly the 'soul' is capable of all of that on its own cause that's just how it works!".  Well, sorry, but I think it should take a bit more than that.  And there is literally zero evidence that gives credibility to what I consider to be such an absurd notion.  But I would really be interested in seeing how you'd answer these questions nonetheless...


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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #114 on: 05/07/2016 17:49:42 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #115 on: 05/07/2016 17:52:33 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.

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Offline phyti

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #116 on: 05/07/2016 19:01:37 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?
 

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #117 on: 05/07/2016 19:23:56 »

DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?
AFAIK it evolved from simpler chemical structures, such as RNA.
BTW, does it have anything to do with the topic here?

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #118 on: 05/07/2016 19:46:30 »

DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?
AFAIK it evolved from simpler chemical structures, such as RNA.
BTW, does it have anything to do with the topic here?

Yes, you're correct.

It is all traced to chemical reactions/evolution combined with billions of years of time.  It has been shown that all the ingredients necessary for life are readily available in the universe and that complex organic compounds can be formed quite readily from simple ingredients; without much effort or tinkling required at all in fact.  And that's what we've been able to do in just a smidgen of time.  Imagine what could arise from billions of years worth of it.

As far as the relevancy, I understand your point, but I guess I see the relevance in that once again the hand of god is trying to be implied, in a thread that cannot escape that fictional character's need to be included in any explanation as to how consciousness could possibly exist after death.  So I guess it's relevant in the sense of one side trying to show evidence that the fictional character actually exists, thereby giving credibility to the argument that 'life' is possible after death, since other than that fictional character as evidence, and the 'faith' that goes along with believing in such stuff, there is no other evidence that would lend credibility to the concept whatsoever.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2016 19:48:33 by IAMREALITY »

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #119 on: 05/07/2016 20:02:08 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?

Are you trying to imply the answer to that is 'god'?  If so, I ask you this... If this fictional 'god' were real, and was all mighty all knowing and all powerful as is claimed, and has the power to create anything and everything and all that there is and ever will be... I ask you then why did he choose such complexity, to choose something that took billions of years to evolve ON ITS OWN to form us.  Why make the structure so overly complex and so full of flaw, when he could've just created us?  Why would the universe itself be so full of complexity, so full of the laws of physics, so vast, so much about it that has zero to do with us at all.  Why would there be need for such complexity and mind blowing scale?  Why would it all exist in such a way that has no care about us whatsoever?  As far as we're concerned, we took billions of years to become what we are.  Why wouldn't we have simply just 'existed'?  If you had the power of creation to create whatever you wanted, would you take your theoretical magic wand and simply create us, or would you sit there and say "nah, I'm gonna make it happen via complex particles bound by complex quantum physics and bound by greater physics and have those particles create simple structures that over billions of years can create more complex structures which over billions of more years can create complex but fatally flawed and evolved from apes human beings?  How does that possibly make any sense?

But I guess that's a religious discussion on its face, and a whole other huge discussion that would be had.  But since 'god' would be so closely related to the concept of consciousness after death, I do find a discussion about its concept to begin with to have merit.  Because I can't escape the conclusion that if religion overall ceased to exist, if it never existed, if it were taken out of the equation, that those who believed in consciousness after death would suddenly be few and far between, and regarded probably as lunatics.  And those who saw the 'visions' would simply chalk them up as products of perception without a second thought.  Would they still believe they were seeing 'heaven'? Of course not, for they wouldn't have been taught by man from man made stories that heaven was even a concept.  So they would then have to believe that their visions were warping them to some dimension science has never perceived, that there's no evidence for, that no ones ever been to, that no science nor physics hints at, and that there's no reason whatsoever in reality to believe in, and I can't for the life of me be convinced they'd draw that conclusion from their vision.  It would make far more sense that they'd suddenly believe without doubt that what they experienced was a powerful mental hallucination and nothing more. 

Take the 'crammed down their throats from birth, pushed by society, brainwashed repeatedly into their psyche, created by man' concept of 'god' out of the equation, and I'd be hard pressed to see how that man in the video would still believe so fervently in his conclusion.

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #120 on: 06/07/2016 00:23:23 »
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense.
What do you mean by "memories in an absolute sense" that are not "coherent"?
Quote
Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio
As it happens (checks bookshelf), I have read Damasio, and Stanislas Dehaene, Stephen Rose, Barry Gordon, and Daniel Schacter, on memory. Perhaps it is the somewhat opaque and fragmentary nature of your posts that is causing some misunderstanding, but that one looked nonsensical to me...

I am impressed by your bookshelf and appreciate that you have read Antonio Damasio. I'm sorry my posts are opaque and fragmentary and that this one looked nonsensical to you.

I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #121 on: 06/07/2016 01:55:28 »
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense.
What do you mean by "memories in an absolute sense" that are not "coherent"?
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Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio
As it happens (checks bookshelf), I have read Damasio, and Stanislas Dehaene, Stephen Rose, Barry Gordon, and Daniel Schacter, on memory. Perhaps it is the somewhat opaque and fragmentary nature of your posts that is causing some misunderstanding, but that one looked nonsensical to me...

I am impressed by your bookshelf and appreciate that you have read Antonio Damasio. I'm sorry my posts are opaque and fragmentary and that this one looked nonsensical to you.

I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.

What you post make perfect sense to me and I am baffled by that hurtful comment to a valuable interesting member like you

Keep up the good work and ignore them

Peace and Light!

Alan McDougallL
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #122 on: 06/07/2016 04:39:11 »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #123 on: 06/07/2016 04:42:33 »
At least look at this video and you might really reconsider your position  about the nonexistence of a consciousness beyond death if you are one of those who are so sure we only have this life in which to exist.

OK, I watched some of your video (that's time I'll never get back). It's just another NDE revelation. Meh. People have reported similar kinds of revelatory experiences from NDEs, temporal lobe epilepsy seizures, and psychotropic drugs. It's interesting that they almost always relate directly to the cultural experience of the experiencer, rather than some consistent external reality.

Exactly.
DNA is the program to form a human. Where did it come from?

Are you trying to imply the answer to that is 'god'?  If so, I ask you this... If this fictional 'god' were real, and was all mighty all knowing and all powerful as is claimed, and has the power to create anything and everything and all that there is and ever will be... I ask you then why did he choose such complexity, to choose something that took billions of years to evolve ON ITS OWN to form us.  Why make the structure so overly complex and so full of flaw, when he could've just created us?  Why would the universe itself be so full of complexity, so full of the laws of physics, so vast, so much about it that has zero to do with us at all.  Why would there be need for such complexity and mind blowing scale?  Why would it all exist in such a way that has no care about us whatsoever?  As far as we're concerned, we took billions of years to become what we are.  Why wouldn't we have simply just 'existed'?  If you had the power of creation to create whatever you wanted, would you take your theoretical magic wand and simply create us, or would you sit there and say "nah, I'm gonna make it happen via complex particles bound by complex quantum physics and bound by greater physics and have those particles create simple structures that over billions of years can create more complex structures which over billions of more years can create complex but fatally flawed and evolved from apes human beings?  How does that possibly make any sense?

But I guess that's a religious discussion on its face, and a whole other huge discussion that would be had.  But since 'god' would be so closely related to the concept of consciousness after death, I do find a discussion about its concept to begin with to have merit.  Because I can't escape the conclusion that if religion overall ceased to exist, if it never existed, if it were taken out of the equation, that those who believed in consciousness after death would suddenly be few and far between, and regarded probably as lunatics.  And those who saw the 'visions' would simply chalk them up as products of perception without a second thought.  Would they still believe they were seeing 'heaven'? Of course not, for they wouldn't have been taught by man from man made stories that heaven was even a concept.  So they would then have to believe that their visions were warping them to some dimension science has never perceived, that there's no evidence for, that no ones ever been to, that no science nor physics hints at, and that there's no reason whatsoever in reality to believe in, and I can't for the life of me be convinced they'd draw that conclusion from their vision.  It would make far more sense that they'd suddenly believe without doubt that what they experienced was a powerful mental hallucination and nothing more. 

Take the 'crammed down their throats from birth, pushed by society, brainwashed repeatedly into their psyche, created by man' concept of 'god' out of the equation, and I'd be hard pressed to see how that man in the video would still believe so fervently in his conclusion.


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #124 on: 06/07/2016 06:54:46 »


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan

I have spoken the truth above.  And nah, pontius is now nothing more than a rotting corpse, and he washed his hands merely at his role in the death of a mortal. But such is now long gone history. But I thought you didn't want to inject religion into this discussion? But I do believe the discussion can have merit.  If you choose to have that discussion on religion, I'd be interested in your answers to the questions on the topic I posted above.  They are quite relevant and logic based. But if you wanna stick merely with the "it's true cause I want it to be" defense I totally would understand. 

Or we can just move along from the religious discussion. I'm ok with whatever. 

(and I would argue that truth is science and reality, the lies and deception religion, and that the truth was standing before pontius, and that truth was that Jesus was but a man)
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 07:03:37 by IAMREALITY »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #125 on: 06/07/2016 12:30:16 »
I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
OK thanks, that clarifies your meaning. It still doesn't make sense to me though; clearly, declarative memories can't form until the child has developed a coherent perceptual model of the world with which they can be associated, and procedural memories can't form until coherent proprioceptive feedback and control is established. To say that, "It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear." seems unrelated and nonsensical - a foetus has no memories to begin with, and a developing child will acquire memories as and when its faculties are sufficiently developed to support them. It's true that childhood development after birth is accompanied by large-scale synaptic pruning, which continues into puberty - one could say that the brain's functional architecture is as much 'carved' out of excess connectivity as it is established with new connectivity, just as its functioning involves the suppression of neural circuits as much as it involves excitation...

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #126 on: 06/07/2016 12:41:18 »
What you post make perfect sense to me and I am baffled by that hurtful comment to a valuable interesting member like you...
It wasn't intended to be hurtful, but an honest response that I couldn't make sense of his post.

Since Kasparovitch's post makes perfect sense to you, and I'm still in the dark as to just what he meant, perhaps you can explain it to me? I'd appreciate that.

Incidentally, I gave my (negative) opinion on the video link you posted; what did you think of the one I posted for you?

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #127 on: 06/07/2016 13:36:24 »
I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
OK thanks, that clarifies your meaning. It still doesn't make sense to me though; clearly, declarative memories can't form until the child has developed a coherent perceptual model of the world with which they can be associated, and procedural memories can't form until coherent proprioceptive feedback and control is established. To say that, "It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear." seems unrelated and nonsensical - a foetus has no memories to begin with, and a developing child will acquire memories as and when its faculties are sufficiently developed to support them. It's true that childhood development after birth is accompanied by large-scale synaptic pruning, which continues into puberty - one could say that the brain's functional architecture is as much 'carved' out of excess connectivity as it is established with new connectivity, just as its functioning involves the suppression of neural circuits as much as it involves excitation...

I'm happy that things are more clear now.

I'll study the subject better so that I may offer a more consistent opinion.

I'm not so sure fetuses don't have memories. They must have some form of memory, not declarative for sure, as it is demonstrated that they learn their mother's voice in utero and can recognize it among many voices after birth.

I'll try to define at what time time former memories are removed. My oldest memory I can date is from the time I was 2Y10M, but I have some more memories which I believe they are a few months earlier but can't date them for sure. Perhaps some day I'll be able to date them as they happened at a time I lived with my grandmother and the clues to date them must be in the letters between my mother and her, which are kept inaccessible by my mother.

For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it. The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge. Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms. How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery, I think, more at a time people could trace the universe back to the big bang. 
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 13:48:52 by kasparovitch »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #128 on: 06/07/2016 14:18:58 »
I'm not so sure fetuses don't have memories. They must have some form of memory, not declarative for sure, as it is demonstrated that they learn their mother's voice in utero and can recognize it among many voices after birth.
I said foetuses don't have memories to begin with, i.e. at implantation they are just an undifferentiated bundle of cells. They can't achieve memory (in the conventional sense) until the CNS is sufficiently developed.
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I'll try to define at what time time former memories are removed.
If you mean that once memories can be formed, they can also be forgotten, I won't argue - for example, the vast majority of episodic memory soon fades beyond conscious access.
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My oldest memory I can date is from the time I was 2Y10M, but I have some more memories which I believe they are a few months earlier but can't date them for sure. Perhaps some day I'll be able to date them as they happened at a time I lived with my grandmother and the clues to date them must be in the letters between my mother and her, which are kept inaccessible by my mother.
Quite a few people report very early memories - including of birth or even earlier - but there's no good evidence that these are more than imaginative confabulations. Memories of the first year are also debatable. The problem is that children are particularly liable to elaborate and incorporate episodic descriptions from family and friends into their own autobiographical memory (adults do it too, but less frequently). So when a parent or relative describes some episode or even shows a photo of those early times, it may be remembered in later years as a subjective experience, with little means to falsify it. I have one or two of those that I was able to check and discovered that they didn't really happen as I remembered them.

Just for interest, and to emphasise the unreliability of memory, particularly episodic memory, here are a few links to articles on the topic:

List of Memory Biases
How Much of Your Memory is True?
Memory Distortion & Invention
False Autobiographical Memories
Seven Sins of Memory
The Memory Doctor
How accurate are Memories of 9/11?

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #129 on: 06/07/2016 15:54:58 »
For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it.

It absolutely can be definitively answered.  Once science proves (give it a decade) that consciousness is nothing more than a biological process and can detail the mechanism, it can then be shown quite factually that it would not survive death, since our biological processes pretty much cease upon death.



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The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge.

It is interesting that the most readily available way to give credibility to the scientifically absurd concept of consciousness surviving death; the OBE; has never been proven by a single person to have actually taken place.  But I would argue against it technically being the 'only' thing that can be proved as it relates to consciousness surviving death.  If we think about the concept itself, as far fetched scientifically as it is, if consciousness survived death we're then throwing some new things into play.  There would have to be some new form of self aware energy that existed, or some dimensional gateway that the energy could flow through, or possibly some hidden dimension altogether where the consciousness goes where all laws of physics as we know them cease to exist, or a bunch of other far fetched and absurd sounding things that would be necessary for consciousness after death to be real.  So finding any of these things, proving any of their existences, or even being able to show through theory and scientific calculation etc that these things could exist or the mechanisms for how they'd exist, would all technically be evidence towards the concept of consciousness after death being real.  But there's a reason why such things sound so far fetched and absurd...


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Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms.

You still make it sound like an algorithm should be so easy.  But first science would need to fully understand what's going on. But even then, the processes might be so utterly complex that we'd still be hard pressed to recreate it via algorithm.  The fact we haven't been able to yet means absolutely nothing.  The brain has had billions of years of evolution behind it.  Has 100 billion neurons worth of processing power behind it, and so many complex calculations and processes involved.  First science would need to fully understand exactly how the mechanism of consciousness works, and only then could they truly get to the task of recreating it via algorithm.  But nothing would be easy about it at all, since we're talking about one of the most complex and wondrous processes that nature, in billions and billions of years, has come up with.  We're not even a century into computing yet.  Be a bit more patient.

And science is getting closer and closer to defining it.  There is much progress that has been made and they've even discovered the consciousness trigger in the brain, which is a good discovery.  In our lifetime it is quite possible that the answer of consciousness will be solved.  And one thing I know for certain, is that it will be shown to be a biological process, same as everything else about us, no magical defies everything we've ever scientifically learned or known thus far having zero evidence to support it goes to some magical fairy kingdom outside our own spacetime after death makes zero sense overall soul required.  Humans love attributing that which they don't understand to 'god'.  But each time, science catches up and shows that there were perfectly reasonable and factual explanations all along.  This will be no different.  And they are getting really close...  Thankfully.

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How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery

Not a mystery at all.  In fact, it's rather quite logical.  Cause again, we're talking about the most complex and wondrous process that nature has come up with in all its billions and billions of years, and formed in the most complex brain, with the help of hundreds of billions of neurons doing the processing.  Why would it be a mystery that modern neurology, with only less than a century of time behind it overall, hasn't yet nailed down that most complex and advanced of natures wonders?  I'd say it's actually pretty damn impressive how close they've come in such a short time.  Like I said, they're actually really close to solving it.  But just because they haven't yet, doesn't mean that all of a sudden everything we know in science cannot be real, that there's some other dimension within our own spacetime that we cannot see or access but that every time someone dies their energy suddenly transcends to, that there is this other beyond magical able to retain identity, memories and information type energy that leaves your body to begin with, and that suddenly, upon the ceasing of biological processes, that everything that once required complex networks of memory and neurons is able to be transformed into this magical undetectable energy that can do it all itself and access some dimensional gateway to run amok with all the other balls of magical undetectable energy; while defying everything we've ever learned scientifically as human beings. 

No.  It just means that the answer has not yet been discovered, nothing more, but that the answer will still be one of earthly origin with explanations that reside within our realm of science, logic and understanding, and that the only hurdle is merely time.  But the time will come soon enough.  Long live science!

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #130 on: 06/07/2016 16:35:33 »


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan

I have spoken the truth above.  And nah, pontius is now nothing more than a rotting corpse, and he washed his hands merely at his role in the death of a mortal. But such is now long gone history. But I thought you didn't want to inject religion into this discussion? But I do believe the discussion can have merit.  If you choose to have that discussion on religion, I'd be interested in your answers to the questions on the topic I posted above.  They are quite relevant and logic based. But if you wanna stick merely with the "it's true cause I want it to be" defense I totally would understand. 

Or we can just move along from the religious discussion. I'm ok with whatever. 

(and I would argue that truth is science and reality, the lies and deception religion, and that the truth was standing before pontius, and that truth was that Jesus was but a man)

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 16:39:51 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #131 on: 06/07/2016 17:17:53 »

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Nah, he just be dead.

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Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

As will you dude, as will we all.  It sucks to have to accept, but it is what it is.  Our life is but one and our days finite.  My advice is to make the best use of those days you can, enjoy each day the most you can, and help others do the same, as they are the only days they will have as well.

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While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.

Overall, all of our lives are insignificant.  And ultimately, no matter how much influence we have on others even generationally, we and they will all end up eaten by the sun anyway, so in the end, none of it really matters all that much.  But I still choose to make the best life I can, and have inspired and helped hundreds, and when my book comes out (called "The Religion Of Reality", look for it!) I will hopefully reach tens of thousands more, and knowing this is the only life there is, I choose to worry about what matters here, not in some made up realm that doesn't exist or have any bearing on reality.  And Jesus, the mere mortal, might've been one of the most influential figures.  I mean, he was a liar, con artist and egomaniac that suffered from severe delusions of grandeur, but was effective enough at it to fool countless billions, so I guess I'll give him credit there.  But his 'influence' has also been responsible for countless deaths, immeasurable suffering, so much harsh judgment and biases towards others and is one of the biggest stains on humanity as we know it, so I'm not sure his being the greatest influence is exactly a good thing, but I digress.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 17:20:33 by IAMREALITY »

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #132 on: 06/07/2016 18:15:34 »
For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it. The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge. Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms. How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery, I think, more at a time people could trace the universe back to the big bang.
Philosophically, we can't falsify the survival of consciousness after permanent death, but scientifically, we can declare it false beyond reasonable doubt. When multiple independent lines of evidence suggest it can't happen, and there's no plausible evidence that it does, that's the only rational conclusion. As Sean Carroll says, when you know the rules of chess, it doesn't make you a chess player or allow you to evaluate a chess position, but it does mean you know that if someone suggests that a rook might move diagonally, they're just wrong. Quantum field theory in the Standard Model may not be a complete explanation of the universe, and it doesn't mean we understand the world around us, but we have established the basic physical rules underlying everyday life (protons, neutrons, electrons, the electromagnetic force, and gravitation are all the particles & forces that are relevant at everyday human scales), and they simply don't support the concept of independent consciousness - nor, for that matter, does classical thermodynamics.

There's little doubt that the experience of OBEs does occur, but there is every reason to think that it is an internally generated experience.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #133 on: 06/07/2016 21:18:06 »

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Nah, he just be dead.

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Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

As will you dude, as will we all.  It sucks to have to accept, but it is what it is.  Our life is but one and our days finite.  My advice is to make the best use of those days you can, enjoy each day the most you can, and help others do the same, as they are the only days they will have as well.

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While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.

Overall, all of our lives are insignificant.  And ultimately, no matter how much influence we have on others even generationally, we and they will all end up eaten by the sun anyway, so in the end, none of it really matters all that much.  But I still choose to make the best life I can, and have inspired and helped hundreds, and when my book comes out (called "The Religion Of Reality", look for it!) I will hopefully reach tens of thousands more, and knowing this is the only life there is, I choose to worry about what matters here, not in some made up realm that doesn't exist or have any bearing on reality.  And Jesus, the mere mortal, might've been one of the most influential figures.  I mean, he was a liar, con artist and egomaniac that suffered from severe delusions of grandeur, but was effective enough at it to fool countless billions, so I guess I'll give him credit there.  But his 'influence' has also been responsible for countless deaths, immeasurable suffering, so much harsh judgment and biases towards others and is one of the biggest stains on humanity as we know it, so I'm not sure his being the greatest influence is exactly a good thing, but I digress.

More terminological inexactitudes from you and thank you for mentioning your book so that I can avoid reading it.

And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.

You are a master at digressing so why mention it?
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #134 on: 07/07/2016 00:09:53 »
... And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.
Wait, what? since when did 'dude' change from being cool to being an insult? did I miss that meeting?

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #135 on: 07/07/2016 00:39:40 »
... And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.
Wait, what? since when did 'dude' change from being cool to being an insult? did I miss that meeting?

As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #136 on: 07/07/2016 01:08:18 »

As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.

Just for sake of clarity and not for sake of arguing, but I will not change how I freely talk due to what I'd feel to be someone's irrational dislike of it.  There's not a thing offensive about the word, and I will plainly say that if someone finds that there is, that's a problem for them to overcome, not for me to overcome.  I'm not gonna change who I am nor how I choose to talk merely because someone says so, unless what i was saying was truly offensive; which in this case it truly wasn't. This is my only post on the topic I will make.  I will not argue with you on a personal level, and will only debate with you within the context of the thread itself.  I made a quick exception to put this specific issue to rest insofar as I'm concerned.  Thank you. 


« Last Edit: 07/07/2016 01:57:00 by IAMREALITY »

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #137 on: 07/07/2016 05:42:04 »
if a baby die, does his/her consciousness survive?
will it grow as adult of pure consciousness?

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #138 on: 07/07/2016 11:01:13 »
As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.
OK.

Just out of interest, what is it you find offensive about it? It's definitely not an insult among the people I know (mainly retired), so I'm wondering if there's another meaning to the one I know.

p.s. any comment on the video I linked to earlier?
« Last Edit: 07/07/2016 11:04:14 by dlorde »

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #139 on: 10/07/2016 15:39:45 »
Just want to share some philosophical perspective on death.

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #140 on: 10/07/2016 16:33:15 »
Just want to share some philosophical perspective on death.

Was that supposed to be merely a box of darkness, meaning that you believe when we die that there's nothing but black, because we're simply, ya know, just like dead and stuff, or is it just a problem with the link or my browser?  If the former, I totally agree. 

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #141 on: 10/07/2016 18:03:52 »

Was that supposed to be merely a box of darkness, meaning that you believe when we die that there's nothing but black, because we're simply, ya know, just like dead and stuff, or is it just a problem with the link or my browser?  If the former, I totally agree.
It supposed to link to a youtube video from crash course philosophy channel. It works well in my browser.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #142 on: 10/07/2016 21:30:58 »
It supposed to link to a youtube video from crash course philosophy channel. It works well in my browser.
Just post the URL: Perspectives on Death
« Last Edit: 10/07/2016 21:45:33 by dlorde »