Does consciousness exist after death?

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #50 on: 23/06/2016 07:09:38 »
I would also ask you to please refrain from personal attacks such as calling me a liar, when I've done nothing but tell the truth with as much blunt honesty as I can muster. Thanks.

"Then be truthful" and stop trying to put yourself over as an expert on every topic on the forum and get a little humility in the process. The fact, however, as far as what you stated in this thread is that it is obvious that you have posted a very long essay of "terminological inexactitudes"?
I've never been anything but truthful. Now please cease and desist with your personal attacks. They are against the rules and not conducive to discussion. I have not attacked you at all and would ask you to refrain from doing it as well. Thanks.

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #51 on: 23/06/2016 07:41:54 »
And for what it's worth Al,  I'm not trying to convince you. I know there isn't anything that can be said that will get you to realize just how much a product of your mind it was. Instead, my goal is merely to relay accurate information and my own experience of both, and my own identical experience as yours that had me almost thinking the same ways, but that years later I had personally verified as a product of my mind after my trip proved to me that no death was necessary to achieve that level.  No death necessary whatsoever.  And again, that's just me relaying information.  Not to convince you, as I already know that to be impossible.  But instead for anyone else reading, to make up their own mind.  I'm merely relaying my accurate experience and knowledge.  As always, it's up to any given reader to come to their own conclusions.  But yeah, I'm always gonna relay whatever accurate information I have on any given topic, including this one.  I'm going to bed now.  Goodnight. 

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #52 on: 23/06/2016 16:27:02 »
And for what it's worth Al,  I'm not trying to convince you. I know there isn't anything that can be said that will get you to realize just how much a product of your mind it was. Instead, my goal is merely to relay accurate information and my own experience of both, and my own identical experience as yours that had me almost thinking the same ways, but that years later I had personally verified as a product of my mind after my trip proved to me that no death was necessary to achieve that level.  No death necessary whatsoever.  And again, that's just me relaying information.  Not to convince you, as I already know that to be impossible.  But instead for anyone else reading, to make up their own mind.  I'm merely relaying my accurate experience and knowledge.  As always, it's up to any given reader to come to their own conclusions.  But yeah, I'm always gonna relay whatever accurate information I have on any given topic, including this one.  I'm going to bed now.  Goodnight. 

If you indeed had a near death experience, which I reserve the right to doubt then "please give an account of it", so that I can reserve judgement?

So someone who talks about how people who have them should be believed now questions me on mine.  How ironic.  Yes, I absolutely had one.  And again please,stop calling me out as a liar.  And forgive me if I don't feel the need to share my very personal experience with a random internet stranger who'd be ready to pounce the second I post it.  I feel no desire to share my story with you nor feel any need to otherwise.

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"identical to psychoses or bluntly put madness".
Lol that's just quite simply not true at all

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By contrast during an acid trip, your heart is beating and supplying your brain with all the blood and nutrients it needs, and what is happening is that the LSD is causing random eletro- messages to be passed back and forward in the brain , to mimic an actual experience, which are extremely bizarre and always false.

Both experiences are always false, both products of perception.  I never claimed that the mechanisms by which those states are attained are identical, not whatsoever.  What I'm saying is that the end result is the same, the power of the mind to alter one's perception in some amazingly powerful ways was the same, regardless of what needed to fall into place for the mind to do such things.   The point is that it is not only pending death that cause the brain to have an altered perception that leads to some extremely powerful, vivid, higher level, other worldly, ethereal and memorable experiences.  That there are other ways to achieve the same altered perception result with no death necessary.  Ketamine administration for example has been widely shown to mimic NDE's completely.

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Again by contrast most near death experiences are ordered, logical, beautiful, life changing and vividly remembered and absolutely nothing like an acid trip, hallucination or a dream in an active brain with a blood supply>

Can you tell me from your own experience what an acid trip is like?  Have you ever had one?  I will say that many, if not most, LSD or other hallucinogenic trips can be very disorderly etc.  My point is that there are some that are not, and that it is possible when tripping sometimes to have that exact same powerful experience, the same feeling of peace and higher level existence, that same ethereal feeling as if you've entered a completely different dimension and are in a completely different state of mind, where you see everything so clearly, so vividly, where everything is beautiful, and you feel more aware and connected than you ever have.  I know this because I experienced it directly.  I had an NDE and I have also tripped many times (many moons ago).  On some of these trips, especially once I learned how to rule them, I would absolutely be in that realm and overall the experience was identical to my NDE, as far as how my perception felt and senses felt, as well as my state of mind and clarity of thought.  I experienced both ends of my argument and remember the feelings of each side vividly, what I saw, how I felt, the state of mind I seemed to be in and what my perception felt like.  For all intents and purposes the 'level' I was on, the dimension I seemed to exist on, was identical. 

Now granted, not every trip, or most even, will produce such a sensation.  But can they?  Oh absolutely.  Because I know.  Because I experienced it.  And because many others via acid (or DMT, or Ketamine - plenty on google about those 2) have as well.  That's my only point.  That death is not the only trigger for NDE's.  And that chemically induced ones can be every bit as powerful and life altering.  Because perception is an incredibly powerful thing, and your mind rules it...

But you can have the last word.  I've said all that's relevant at this point.  I'm moving on.
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 16:29:03 by IAMREALITY »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #53 on: 24/06/2016 18:20:34 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #54 on: 24/06/2016 18:25:24 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan

Can you describe your NDE?

Yes here it is (I had a previous experiencing in 1994 which was much more detailed)


Disclaimer.

What I write below is subjectively true and I am not trying to make a case out of proving whether there is an existence after our mortal bodies perish. It is simple; I saw what I saw and it has a profound and lasting positive effect on me and how I now relate to others
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The night my heart stopped and I flat-lined


If I had any doubts about life after death I have none now, each time my heart stopped my soul or consciousness left my body and went into other dimensions of existence.

Hello everyone please read this updated, edited version, which better describes what happened to me night my heart stopped beating in 2011

On the night of  18th, August 2011 at approximately 9.30 pm, my heart stopped beating numerous times, both at home and later on the  Hospital resuscitation table.

On resuscitation table due to third stage or total, AV heart block. I went through the whole drama of my heart stopping, flat- lining over and over again, adrenaline, atropine were injected directly into my heart and the shock paddles and chest depressions used over and over again in a desperate effort to get my heart to beat again on its own without  help.

I had taken a nap on that Thursday night, and a dear friend of mine, Tony Martin was somehow moved to phoned late at night, a thing he had never done before.

I woke up with the phone ringing due to his call, with great fear because my heart was reacting in a manner that I had never experienced until that moment, it was going heart crazy in my chest hesitating then beating and then, almost stopping completely,

I cried out to my daughter Desiree for her to get my wife to phone for an ambulance

My wife immediately called the for the ambulance and they got to my home in ten minutes. The hospital is less than a half kilometre from my home and I was there in five minutes and when I arrived, expert medical attention was immediate.

Note! If my friend of some thirty-five years, Tony Martin, had not phoned, from the town of George in South Africa to Johannesburg some thousand miles away, at the exact moment he did, I would never have woken up and would have died in my sleep.

I am sure God moved Tony that night to phone me at the exact moment he did, which for him was a very unusual hour at about 9 pm. Tony never phones me so late at night and maybe he can explain what made him call me or why he was moved to call me at that exact moment in  time.

His phone call woke me up from a deep sleep from which I would not have awakened and from and I would have died in my sleep, because I was unaware in my sleeping state the fact that my heart was going wild in my chest, a "somnambulist battle of life or death"

Tony could hear over the phone that there was something really wrong going on which me. He said over the phone “Alan McDougall you don’t sound right, are you OK?’ I replied “No”!! “Tony something is very wrong” “you phone back a little later”.

I put down the phone and could feel my heart actually vibrating in a frightening way, it would stop completely and I would lose consciousness for a while, and then regain awareness, but not know where I was, or who I was, as I struggled to survive, during this frightening life or death episode.

I became ghastly pale and started to sweat profusely. I did not realise at this stage know how very close to death I came that night.

It is very scary when I looked at wife or daughter and saw them actually becoming dimmer and dimmer in my eyes because my brain was being deprived of oxygen.

It was then that I began then to move in and out of consciousness on the very edge of death.

At the hospital, my blood pressure reading was zero.

I saw my daughter Desiree in the passage and called out weakly for her to tell my wife Denise, that I was having a heart attack.

I do not think my wife believed me, but after looking at me with my face which now looked like death and sweating body, she called the ambulance, which most fortunately to my survival reached our home in less than ten minutes. (South Africa's 911)

I now entered a life-threatening desperate state of AV heart block ( Heart stopping and starting) I recall very little of what happened to me that night, because I had begun to go in and out of consciousness, until I finally became fully conscious the next morning with a temporary heart pacemaker installed in my heart to keep me alive.

I had to wait a day or two in the hospital for Doctor Rodney King Cardiologist, to get my medical aid to agree to the fitting of a permanent heart pacemaker, under my skin in my chest wall. This pacemaker cost about sixty thousand South African Rand or about nine thousand American (USA) dollars.

I only conscious of a just a little of what was going on in those three hours that the team of committed doctors who refused to give up on me in the very difficult task of restoring my heart beat and save my life This was a battle of life or death

However, I have lately  begun to remember more and more about some rather odd things I saw and heard while on the resuscitation table that night. 

Denise, my wife was kept in the dark by the medical staff and did not know until the next morning how really sick her husband has been or that he had metaphorically knocked on the gates of death, survived to live again, hopefully, many more years as husband and father to his children.

Over the period of three hours, each time my heart stopped and I  flat-line, I went somewhere, not of this world and each time the emergency team of doctors at the Hospital battled to got my heart to beat  Each time it stopped I subjectively went into a comfortable dark void for an eternity and I came back. an objective few seconds later

Each time my heart stopped I seem to  go away for an eternity to elsewhere, but when they started it up again, I returned to life from this elsewhere seemingly in contrast, without even the smallest moment of time passing.

I remember being vaguely aware and conscious of what was going on around me. But kept going in and out of consciousness during the continual attempts at resuscitation.

The team of doctors and nursing assistants were desperately trying to get a needle into one of my veins. I have very poor veins and they are fairly deep under my skin and difficult to locate. Later back in the emergency care ward after I finally became fully conscious I noticed that both my arms and hands were full bruises and needle pricks.

It took three hours of effort on the resuscitation table before the doctors were able to stabilise my heart and to installed a temporary pacemaker to maintain my pulse between 65/110 beats per/minute, instead of the zero to 15 it had been beating/not beating most of the time.

I heard them call for atropine and adrenaline, which they injected directly into my heart. When even this did not keep my heart beating as it should, the electric paddles were used to shock my heart and get it beating as it should.

On my return to the emergency ward, I noticed both sides of my chest, ribs, or torso were very painful to touch as it hurt to breath for a day or two after the event

The doctor said if I had arrived hospital even five minutes later it would have been impossible to revive me. I am 75 years of age now and would not have minded if I had died then'

But I suppose there must be some reason for me to carry on with life or activities yet to do because it is true that a whole lot of favourable coincidences came together to make it possible for me to survive, what should have been impossible to survive under any other circumstances.

I really came as close to total death that night as possible, without actually dying, and was fortunate enough to be brought back to quality life by a great team of doctors, to live again and be with my family and friends a little longer.

In fact, since the heart pacemaker was fitted I have felt healthier and maybe the heart irregularity was a long-standing problem of which I was unaware.

I vaguely remember being on the table with people pricking me with needles all over, my arms and hands.

Because I was continually being revived by the medical team , I floated in and out of consciousness, into the Other-World realms and then back to this one the resuscitation table, this continued until  my heart was fully supported by the doctors, who had managed to get my heart to beat with a temporary heart pacemaker.

Afterlife

I had no tunnel or meeting of a being of light, which is usual for the near death experience. I went directly into a gloomy large dark cave and saw countless people sitting in the dark gloom.

There was some enormous evil entity, so pitch black that it seemed like tar and did not reflect any light. Only later when I saw the Golden Light that I thought might be Jesus, as he approached the dark entity, it shrank away from him.

Was this dark entity Satan the Devil?

When I was elsewhere on the other side in some dimension or the other, I saw a huge tree with a large number of books all around its huge trunk.

In my opinion, this great tree was the "Tree of Knowledge ?

Just by attempting to read what was on the covers of those books, it was somehow brought to my understanding that within them, were all the answers to all my questions I had pondered over most of my life  These books also contained within them all the knowledge, wisdom and mysteries of existence.

Among the many books, was very much larger one, much larger than the other rest which was scattered randomly around the huge trunk of this beautiful tree. I assume the very large book was a consolidation of all that was in all the smaller books.

When I tried to lift the large book, I found  it was much too heavy for me to carry, so I decided to leave it there under the tree and return later for it.

Maybe when I finally do die and go to heaven, I will go back to that beautiful tree and retrieve this book which I think might the "The book of Knowledge"

During the moments that I flat-lined, I went somewhere outside of this earthly dimension into strange places outside of three-dimensional space and time as we know it is the physical universe.

I walked through a doorway of sorts and saw numerous people gathered apparently to welcome me into the afterlife.

I did not recognise any of them, maybe because the scenario too fleeting and was over in less than a blink of an eye.

Maybe they were some of my beloved passed over family members or friends,  but I cannot say what I saw was factual or not. However, what the were gathering for seemed to be was some sort of a welcome home party or  wedding reception.

Although not in this particulates event, I thought about my beloved Dog Bully who had died fifty years prior and remembered the many dreams I had when I felt his loving doggy presence.

When on the other side of life I also one saw a beautiful pulsating sphere of golden light that I took for the loving Spiritual Essence of the Lord Jesus, because to me he is the only he can emanate perfect peace and love.

I now have a permanent pacemaker in my chest which should last another six years and despite the great shock, I got that night, I am feeling much better and very alive and well.
Note; the medical term for what happened to me is Total AV heat block.

By Alan McDougall (2016)
« Last Edit: 24/06/2016 18:37:45 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #55 on: 24/06/2016 18:29:31 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.
Ok, I'm just curious about something...  Do you believe in evolution?  That we essentially evolved from apes etc?  If so, I'd like you to answer a question if you could... At what point in that evolution, at what point in time, after the universe had already existed for billions upon billions of years, did the evolution from ape to man cause this new higher dimension to suddenly activate?  Meaning, at what point in the evolutionary chain would you pinpoint the exact moment that it went from "oh, it's just a cro-magnon, they just die" to "ahhhh, here's this new higher level realm! I must prove myself worthy down here first to get there, but I'm goin!!!"?

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.  When would you say, well, if you believe in evolution of course, that it went from merely death to suddenly having this test that must be passed in order to enter this higher realm?  Just curious how far back in time you'd go and when you'd pinpoint it.  I'm asking with sincerity.

Also, if the whole purpose is to pass this test, what about all those that die young before they've had the chance?  What becomes of their consciousness?  Just curious your take on that as well.

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #56 on: 25/06/2016 11:06:24 »
Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...
« Last Edit: 25/06/2016 15:43:17 by kasparovitch »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #57 on: 25/06/2016 17:21:08 »
Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...

The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #58 on: 25/06/2016 18:50:46 »
As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny...
Modern embryology considers that an exaggeration; some features of an embryo reflect the embryonic features of its evolutionary antecedents.
Quote
It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.
It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

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Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #59 on: 25/06/2016 18:55:02 »
The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?
Not exactly... memories are encoded in the connectivity and responsiveness of networks of neurons, and consciousness is a process involving patterns of activity across those networks.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #60 on: 25/06/2016 19:00:35 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.
Ok, I'm just curious about something...  Do you believe in evolution?  That we essentially evolved from apes etc?  If so, I'd like you to answer a question if you could... At what point in that evolution, at what point in time, after the universe had already existed for billions upon billions of years, did the evolution from ape to man cause this new higher dimension to suddenly activate?  Meaning, at what point in the evolutionary chain would you pinpoint the exact moment that it went from "oh, it's just a cro-magnon, they just die" to "ahhhh, here's this new higher level realm! I must prove myself worthy down here first to get there, but I'm goin!!!"?

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.  When would you say, well, if you believe in evolution of course, that it went from merely death to suddenly having this test that must be passed in order to enter this higher realm?  Just curious how far back in time you'd go and when you'd pinpoint it.  I'm asking with sincerity.

Also, if the whole purpose is to pass this test, what about all those that die young before they've had the chance?  What becomes of their consciousness?  Just curious your take on that as well.

I do not believe in blind evolution I believe in "directed intelligent designed evolution" and will not be drawn into an augment about it with you!
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #61 on: 25/06/2016 19:20:35 »
Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...
That wasn't the question. Please read it again. 

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #62 on: 25/06/2016 19:23:22 »

I do not believe in blind evolution I believe in "directed intelligent designed evolution" and will not be drawn into an augment about it with you!
I have no idea what that means.  This is science.  You either believe in evolution or you don't.  I'll take that as you don't.  Okie dokie.  Thanks.

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #63 on: 25/06/2016 19:27:22 »
The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?

I think that can be a good analogy. If you have all the hardware and no software and turn the computer on, you'll get nothing from it, even though it works and is functioning.

Software is that something it is lacking and must be delivered to it in some way, not necessarily physically, so that it will work.

I anticipate perfectionist people that I don't think this is the perfect analogy, or the problem of consciousness would be solved now.

Modern embryology considers that an exaggeration; some features of an embryo reflect the embryonic features of its evolutionary antecedents.

I told about an aphorism, and thus it's not supposed to be a precision or scientists wouldn't need to study phylogeny any longer. As an aphorism, it only need to be true enough.

It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense. The brain can indeed work well enough without memories, especially for a baby. Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio, for instance, who describes children with hydranencephalia, who lack gray matter, and a person who had no [explicit] memory at all and had the greatest amnesia ever remembered, after an herpetic encephalitis.

Children with hydranenchepalia are diagnosed late exactly because in early ages gray matter doesn't make a difference. This doesn't mean that newborns have raw cotton inside their heads, as they can recognize their mother's voice from a lot of voices, something they learned in utero, and have many many more capabilities.
« Last Edit: 25/06/2016 23:35:04 by kasparovitch »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #64 on: 27/06/2016 00:08:01 »
Infinity Road by Alan McDougall

as I approach the infinite long dark night

I resist and resist it with all my might

I try and try to comprehend this end

to which all men must descend

---------------------------------------------------------------

is it a sleep that all must take?

or is it an eternal end that all must make?

I like to dream of awakening in light not dark

in a beautiful place to which all righteous men depart

--------------------------------------------------------------

do we sleep the sleep of forever?

or do we awake some other place together?

does the answer to this ultimate question

remain forever a process of eternal redemption?

------------------------------------------------------------------

on one glorious day from timeless sleep I awoke

and heard a beautiful and kind voice that sweetly spoke

my faithful son at last you have became to understand

exactly your place in this troubled land

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

you my beloved have truly never ceased to seek

the infinite destiny that in eternity for you I keep

so for you and your family no eternal death awaits

because of your zeal to know your fate

--------------------------------------------------------------------

soon I will bring you all to this most holy place

and there I will you never forsake

very soon, you shall hear a sweet call in the dark of night

come, come into the holy glory of the father spirit of mighty might

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I walk in the cool of evening along sweet meadows I have never seen

I smell the beauty of grasses that have never been

strange golden streams of crystal waterflows

as blue glory of mighty skies above glows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I search the long forgotten memories in the attic of my mind

along the twisted channels the very depth soul that I could not find

I see before me things so wonderful I knew from long ago

I puzzle over the enigma of knowing what I do not know

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

out there far beyond the knowledge of any man is revealed

something of such great mystery to it my heart had appealed

why have I on this one thing so many years stalled?

is this infinite knowledge from many man would be appalled?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

walking on through the shade of great trees that give eternal life

I hear the sweet forgotten voice that comes to free all from everlasting strife

high green new grasses in this new do land grow

as transparent waters chuckle dance, sparkle, and flow


By Alan McDougall (composed 16/2/2005)
« Last Edit: 27/06/2016 00:15:25 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #65 on: 27/06/2016 03:40:45 »
The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?
Software need physical things to store it, such as CD, Hard drive, tape, flash disk, etc.
What is the equivalent for the soul?

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #66 on: 27/06/2016 06:46:58 »
Mr. Alan, can you please modify your last post so that your text is converted from quotation to plain text, as it's hard to read in that format. Thanks.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #67 on: 27/06/2016 06:58:16 »
Mr. Alan, can you please modify your last post so that your text is converted from quotation to plain text, as it's hard to read in that format. Thanks.

I tried but could not get it right so I will post it again as a separate reply!
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #68 on: 27/06/2016 07:00:36 »

Existence -was -Existence-is -Existence-will be.

Within the writhing cosmic cloud of magnetic flux energy, that the always was, took on new form, evolved and coalesced again into a dense oneness of primordial glowing energy, which is and was and will be, the primordial source that moves between the everlasting cycle of order to chaos and chaos back to order.

It became thought.

Within a Timeless zone before existence came to be , a pool of infinite pure consideration held within it all the hopes, dreams,  for creating new order within the realms of existence and reality and these immense waves of pure magnetic thought gradually coalesced and a mighty sentient consciousness emerged out of previous chaos.

It knew itself and said "What am I"?
 
Then it said
 
I AM
 
I am recorded the evolution of creation and existence as follows below!
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I experienced time only in my dreams and the cup of my dreams ran over as do rivers that overflow their banks. I dreamed infinity of dreams in first instant, and infinity multiplied by infinity in the timeless zone I thought of creating all possibilities in one awesome now.

I awoke and thought the first thoughts within infinitely primordial mind I had become. Out of the realm of previous chaos I began to recreate outside the absolute realm and started the first realities based on new planes realms dimensions and textures.

I had drifted eternally in and out of awareness and within the mind flux of pure energy. I tossed out the foams singularities, started the flow of time and withdrew into itself outside time or space and sustained my creation as a static force of infinite power.

I became the Spirit as I twisted in agony of birth, boiling dissolving reforming writhing and vibrating, before existence or creation were reborn out of the thoughts programs of my mind I set up new realities and  began to organize myself into a mighty being of thought and infinite intelligence.

I looked outward and inward into the infinite boundless dark void and knew I was alone and became filled with unspeakable loneliness.

Now aware of infinite potential of the vast unploughed fields of dark nothingness, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizons of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I grew out of nothingness by my own will, before anything else existed and with the mobilities of my original thoughts spoke out and created all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be.
 
Before I could create I who am everything, had to withdraw of myself to open up a void in which to place the universes I was about to grow out of the thought seeds resting in my mind, waiting for planting.

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I sewed seeds of universal radiant energy. Reality is the gem of my creation and the beauty of my achievement. I am it who lives, forever and forever. It is I who illuminated the everlasting darkness of the primordial void, with beams of dazzling light in living and translucent glory to share it with those who love me.

At the moment of the thundering dawn of creating existence, I sent out the primordial heat to light up the universes for the seeds of life to be planted within them. I waited and watched as my creation grew and expanded and it filled my being with joy and satisfaction and I knew my workmanship was good.

I walked down the road of forever and sat down on the throne of infinity. I am the light being and my everlasting purpose is to create and cause existence, I am both nothing and everything I am the light that dispels the dark.

With infinite power and intellect I the nameless- ever- existing- one, looked out at a new empty infinite dark void.  I am boundless I will create something with the potential to become like myself.

Therefore, I separated into an infinity of fundamental fragments yet remained connected to my created beings as the great creator and father spirit.

I set up polarities separating, the sons of light and the sons of dark and permitted enmity to exist between the forces of good and the forces of evil.

I decided to separate existence into dualities and I withdrew myself into everlasting light and banished the rebellious- one into everlasting darkness. In this way all sentient beings could freely choose in which duality to exist.

Opposing forces split the chasm, as light blazed to banish the dark and the dark flowed as thick darkness to blot out the light forever.

I set up a plan to correct my primordial mistake and bring back those caught up and lost to the evil darkness, into the living light again.

There was no cause to my existence I having no Cause I am therefore both the effect and affect sustains and shaper of all things that exist

My acts of creation are cyclic events and my purpose reason for my existence. I formulate everything in the thoughts of my Mind and knew the first numbers.

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals  I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no other proponent to my "first cause". I am the "immovable rock" and the" alpha point". I took these first fundamentals and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam where before there was but nothing. You exist because I exist!

We sang together the song of creation and the new universe began to vibrate with countless frequencies of light, glory translucent and everlasting with the vibrations of the song of existence.

The singer sang the song, the painter the painting, the creator the creation.

The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am  Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is  no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.
 
I am all Life
 
I am Light
 
I am emotion
 
Regards Alan
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #69 on: 27/06/2016 16:23:30 »
And here I thought on an intelligent scientific forum I'd be safe from ridiculous religious mumbo jumbo...

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #70 on: 27/06/2016 16:29:58 »
I read about 'intelligent design', and saw an ad about this ridiculous new book coming out called undeniable, which makes this claim that evolution is bunk and that the author has proved that it's from intelligent design.  Oh c'mon now.  Mountains upon mountains of scientific EVIDENCE of evolution.  It's obvious beyond obvious that it's fact.   I mean really, how intelligent could something be if it takes it tens or even hundreds of thousands of years just to evolve each step change?  If there was some intelligent creator behind it, wouldn't things be, a bit more, well, sudden?  I mean hell, WE could turn a few cells into humans if you give us 100,000 more years, let alone MILLIONS of years.  We could probably find a way to engineer living 'humans' from wood if you gave us a few hundred million years from now.  So c'mon now, how intelligent could this designer be?  There's literally zero evidence for intelligent design, mountains upon mountains of evidence for evolution, and zero logic behind a notion that something with universal intelligence and the power to create anything from nothing would take tens or hundreds of thousands or millions upon millions of years to just create simple changes in a genome.  Yeah, cause that makes total sense.  "I am powerful beyond powerful! I am all that was and will be! I am all knowledge and have the power to create all that is before you!  Now watch me take the next 7 million years to turn this ape into a human even though it's already 96% of the way there!!!"

How could that be regarded as anything but an absurd concept, when looked at objectively?  I mean would they dare say that WE are more powerful and intelligent than this intelligent designer?  I mean, wouldn't they HAVE to?  Cause if you gave us 7 million years, or even 1 million, or even 100,000, you don't think WE could figure out how to alter that ape dna into human dna?    Yeah, some intelligent designer... 7 million years...

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #71 on: 27/06/2016 20:39:38 »
I read about 'intelligent design', and saw an ad about this ridiculous new book coming out called undeniable, which makes this claim that evolution is bunk and that the author has proved that it's from intelligent design.  Oh c'mon now.  Mountains upon mountains of scientific EVIDENCE of evolution.  It's obvious beyond obvious that it's fact.   I mean really, how intelligent could something be if it takes it tens or even hundreds of thousands of years just to evolve each step change?  If there was some intelligent creator behind it, wouldn't things be, a bit more, well, sudden?  I mean hell, WE could turn a few cells into humans if you give us 100,000 more years, let alone MILLIONS of years.  We could probably find a way to engineer living 'humans' from wood if you gave us a few hundred million years from now.  So c'mon now, how intelligent could this designer be?  There's literally zero evidence for intelligent design, mountains upon mountains of evidence for evolution, and zero logic behind a notion that something with universal intelligence and the power to create anything from nothing would take tens or hundreds of thousands or millions upon millions of years to just create simple changes in a genome.  Yeah, cause that makes total sense.  "I am powerful beyond powerful! I am all that was and will be! I am all knowledge and have the power to create all that is before you!  Now watch me take the next 7 million years to turn this ape into a human even though it's already 96% of the way there!!!"

How could that be regarded as anything but an absurd concept, when looked at objectively?  I mean would they dare say that WE are more powerful and intelligent than this intelligent designer?  I mean, wouldn't they HAVE to?  Cause if you gave us 7 million years, or even 1 million, or even 100,000, you don't think WE could figure out how to alter that ape dna into human dna?    Yeah, some intelligent designer... 7 million years...

This topic if you can read the title of the thread "is about consciousness" and you are high jacking it with questions about evolution!

And it seems you think are far to intelligent  to ever consider there are other beings infinitely more intelligent than you, including the Intelligent Designer of which you are closer to a cockroach than it/him etc !
« Last Edit: 27/06/2016 20:42:27 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #72 on: 27/06/2016 21:38:15 »
Will you please stop here and limit exchange of ideas to the theme of the topic.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #73 on: 27/06/2016 21:46:55 »
Will you please stop here and limit exchange of ideas to the theme of the topic.

Who are you referring to ?
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #74 on: 27/06/2016 22:03:56 »
Mr. Alan, I mean I wouldn't like to watch again a fight between you and IAMREALITY on subjects out of topic. That's all.

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #75 on: 27/06/2016 22:06:20 »
This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #76 on: 27/06/2016 22:15:46 »
This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

I told IAMREALTY that more than twice but he refused to listen and persisted in posting about evolution in an attempt to annoy me with evolution which was also an attempt by him to hijack your thread.

Thus I am baffled as to why you include me in this, because 100% of what I wrote had to do with consciousness, until he invaded your tread with evolution.
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #77 on: 27/06/2016 22:23:55 »
You're right, Alan, but I think that by answering his off-topic post perhaps you're fueling him and this becomes a never ending story about everything except consciousness and death as it's supposed to be.

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #78 on: 27/06/2016 22:35:28 »

This topic if you can read the title of the thread "is about consciousness" and you are high jacking it with questions about evolution!

And it seems you think are far to intelligent  to ever consider there are other beings infinitely more intelligent than you, including the Intelligent Designer of which you are closer to a cockroach than it/him etc !

It's all tied together.  Please avoid personal attacks and reply to context only.  I noticed you didn't address the actual valid points of the post.  And it's a bit confusing how you're objecting to my veering off topic considering the things you had posted on the previous page; one of which directly references intelligent design evolution, from the all powerful creator or whatever.  In fact, in a sign of irony, you're even still pushing the concept in this very reply of yours!

Quote
"The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am  Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is  no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.
 
I am all Life
 
I am Light
 
I am emotion"

For example, this addresses whether consciousness scientifically exists after death how exactly? 


This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

I told IAMREALTY that more than twice but he refused to listen and persisted in posting about evolution in an attempt to annoy me with evolution which was also an attempt by him to hijack your thread.

Thus I am baffled as to why you include me in this, because 100% of what I wrote had to do with consciousness, until he invaded your tread with evolution.

What I posted was fine, and technically wasn't even addressed to you.  Furthermore, you asked me zero times to not talk about evolution.  Zero.  I mean, the history's all there.  Third of all, my question on evolution originally on page 3 was a perfectly valid question pertaining to the larger topic.  There was nothing wrong with it at all.  Fourth of all, I'm merely discussing things on a discussion forum.  Same as anyone.  And lastly, you accuse me of hijacking the thread yet I'm not the one who posted the religious stuff and long winded poetry on page 3.  Between your replying to a valid question of mine previously with the concept of intelligent design evolution, you posting that long winded religious screed, and after my seeing that (what I consider to be) nonsensical book that's coming out in my news feed and learning about it, it caused me to reply here with my thoughts, since that's where I first heard it from you to begin with.  I freely admit now in retrospect, that the post was reactive to my utter disgust at reading about the book, and since this thread is where I initially heard the concept, it's where I felt the need to vent my thoughts and very, VERY logical points against the concept.  But even if reactionary and impulsive, it was still merely one post. One. A simple paragraph.  Big deal.  Move on.  But now it needs to devolve into needless bickering and personal attacks why exactly?

If you don't appreciate my posts no one is forcing you to reply to them nor even read them.  If you feel they break the rules feel free to report them.  But please, for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, stop making it personal and attacking me.  You said you were gonna ignore me, so ignore me.  No one is forcing you to reply.  Please just stop the attacks already.

(last thing I'll add:  I have zero interest in going round and round here.  It's been addressed now.  Any future personal attacks in this thread will be ignored, as will posts addressing me in any personal way.  Let's discuss context.  I had some very valid points in my intelligent design rant on page 3, and if you feel the need to rebutt them feel free, and we can discuss it.  Any other contextual replies can be discussed.  But I have no desire in any personal type communication.  Context only.  Thanks)
« Last Edit: 27/06/2016 23:33:43 by IAMREALITY »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #79 on: 28/06/2016 00:28:51 »
You're right, Alan, but I think that by answering his off-topic post perhaps you're fueling him and this becomes a never ending story about everything except consciousness and death as it's supposed to be.

He is on my ignore list "the only member in fact, but I can still look at his posts if I want to. I randomly opened his one about evolution and fell into his trap of debating evolution instead of consciousness . His only purpose was to irritate me which he did, so from now on I will never again look at anything he says of the forum , he is a disruptive influence on the forum better left alone.

From now on I promise you that I will keep to the topic of your thread and not wander off in other directions "Sorry for that!"
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Alex Dullius Siqueira

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #80 on: 28/06/2016 10:13:19 »
I dont want to disturb anyone here, but the conscious come from evolution, now hold one, it is related from being alive, conscious is born from the time concept, an observer does not need a universe in order to observe, he need a universe in order to exist, to observe someone need a mind that is subjected to some sort of time cocnept, but universe is only based on speed of things, heat and cold, energy and that's it, the rest are properties provinient from the combination of those foor...

  Now the brain needs to measure thing, it need to have a pyshical way to tell the boddy to know when to eat, when to hunt, when to sleep. when is going to rain, and for that the brain need exterior references, and he also needs a conscious state of mind, a small portion of the brain which can be easly accesed by the body when the body needs to meassure, when the body needs to think...
 Not strong enought that the brain would loose control, not too weak that the body reflexes would be compromised, so it give us 10%...
   Does consciousness exist after death? Most probably, no!
 Liefe and evolution must be related with death or you end up loosing all the chemistry process that born the brain, and with this ignoring the necessity of why is there a conscious state of mind in the firt place, missing the begining one can't possible expect to understand the end...
  and thank god it most likely ends, humans are not build for eternity, we need to die, witch should be like fall asleep, do you have fear to sleep, or can you do racional psysical task while sliping? See thats my awnser for you, brain creates conscious to observe, tht creates time to measure anything, so the anwser is no, it doesn't...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #81 on: 28/06/2016 10:30:59 »
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

My answer would be an outright no, my reason is that consciousness is the processing of information by the Brains neural network and ''CPU'', once any ''electrical'' energy has left the body the ''CPU'' has no function and is similar to a computer being shut down.

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #82 on: 28/06/2016 11:07:04 »
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

I would say Yes, its possible that consciousness survives death, given that the brain may not be the source of consciousness. There's simply no physical evidences that consciousness could not exist without the brain.

Quote
The scientific confirmation of the existence of consciousness in unicellular organisms and plants certainly establishes that the brain is not the source of consciousness. Several decades back, research in medical science has also proven that the brain is not the source of consciousness. In 1970, Robert White and his team successfully transferred the head of a rhesus monkey to the headless body of another monkey. The monkey survived for 8 days.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

The bliss of ignorance is deeper in the region of tyranny.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #83 on: 28/06/2016 12:46:21 »
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

My answer would be an outright no, my reason is that consciousness is the processing of information by the Brains neural network and ''CPU'', once any ''electrical'' energy has left the body the ''CPU'' has no function and is similar to a computer being shut down.


Consciousness cannot be equated to the CPU it is equated to the software which is non-material.

At least for the first time, in this post I got what you meant although what you said is was back to front as usual!
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #84 on: 28/06/2016 13:16:08 »
"As we debate consciousness maybe we should reflect on what the truth is relative to each of us".

Whatever, I believe or you believe it makes no difference to the what the real actual truth of the matter is, the truth is the truth regardless of belief or speculation, although we might have actually latched onto the truth without knowing it.

Science then becomes the best tool, but not the only tool to prove the truth of our thought beliefs or speculations

Thus; the universe might have needed consciousness to exist, which is the belief of some, or that consciousness was not a prerequisite to the existence of the universe , or the universe created consciousness. Whatever, the truth of those questions will be the truth even if we debate it for an eternity .

But as thinking beings why not debate, both within the confines of our own minds and with others, who know things we do not, in an eternal effort to find ultimate truth?

The actual real truth of this question is a mystery, no one knows the answer, so all is just speculation or belief based systems.

Henry Fords consciousness led to the creation of his Model T car and the totally new unique idea of mass production in his factories. In his case consciousness came before creation so it a too far a stretch to suggest that something similar was the cause of the universes existence?

Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?

(My preference is number 4)

« Last Edit: 28/06/2016 13:28:14 by Alan McDougall »
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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #85 on: 28/06/2016 15:19:58 »
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

My answer would be an outright no, my reason is that consciousness is the processing of information by the Brains neural network and ''CPU'', once any ''electrical'' energy has left the body the ''CPU'' has no function and is similar to a computer being shut down.

Pretty much exactly.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #86 on: 28/06/2016 15:28:51 »
IAMREALITY

You are on my ignore list and I do not look at anything you post, just thought I would let you know!

Best Regards?

Alan
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #87 on: 28/06/2016 15:50:34 »
Rock asked the Naked Scientists:
   Does consciousness continue exist after death so that we can think something? Please if you will phone me speak legibly and easy English (better to say just yes or no).
What do you think?

I would say Yes, its possible that consciousness survives death, given that the brain may not be the source of consciousness. There's simply no physical evidences that consciousness could not exist without the brain.

Quote
The scientific confirmation of the existence of consciousness in unicellular organisms and plants certainly establishes that the brain is not the source of consciousness. Several decades back, research in medical science has also proven that the brain is not the source of consciousness. In 1970, Robert White and his team successfully transferred the head of a rhesus monkey to the headless body of another monkey. The monkey survived for 8 days.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

Second of all, that paper was based on philosophy not science.  It uses an extremely loose definition of sentience, defining every living cell as sentient.  Based on that paper, every living cell that exists would have sentience that survives death.  Are we to assume you believe every cell of every plant, bacteria, animal and otherwise, every cell goes to heaven in your view?

But that's another issue in the paper, it doesn't believe in God, or heaven:
Quote
Even though the attempt toward mechanization of nature served as an important driving force behind the scientific revolution, it also created an image of a clockwork universe set in motion by an intelligent first cause. Such machine analogy is also applied to living organisms. However, the view that a supernatural being, God,54 is external to living organisms and that He imposes form on matter from the outside (intelligent design) is also reductionistic, and shows a logical fallacy.

No, instead the paper is all about reincarnation.  That upon death, the soul enters a new body.  Is that what you believe?
And would that really be consciousness surviving?  I've always said that if reincarnation existed, but our new mind had no memory whatsoever of our old, then isn't it really a distinction without a difference?  Would it matter that it was the 'same' soul, if as far as it was concerned it was 'new'? Would that really be consciousness surviving at all??

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #88 on: 28/06/2016 15:51:40 »
IAMREALITY

You are on my ignore list and I do not look at anything you post, just thought I would let you know!

Best Regards?

Alan

Alan,

No one cares.  Just thought you should know.

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #89 on: 28/06/2016 15:57:33 »
Henry Fords consciousness led to the creation of his Model T car and the totally new unique idea of mass production in his factories. In his case consciousness came before creation so it a too far a stretch to suggest that something similar was the cause of the universes existence?
100% absolutely it is too far.

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Thus our options are?

1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?

The answer is 3, with a 5 thrown in.  The universe didn't create consciousness.  The universe created spacetime, which contained raw energy, which condensed into matter, which formed into structures, which eventually harbored organic chemicals, which eventually over millions or billions of years organized into rna, which over millions or billions of years became dna, which led to living cells, which over billions of years evolved into complex beings capable of consciousness.

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Offline tkadm30

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #90 on: 28/06/2016 17:54:36 »
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

NDE is an evidence that consciousness may survives death.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2783030/Research-near-death-experiences-reveals-awareness-continue-brain-shut-down.html

Quote from: IAMREALITY
Second of all, that paper was based on philosophy not science.  It uses an extremely loose definition of sentience, defining every living cell as sentient.  Based on that paper, every living cell that exists would have sentience that survives death.  Are we to assume you believe every cell of every plant, bacteria, animal and otherwise, every cell goes to heaven in your view?

I believe consciousness is beyond the material realm of existence. Life and consciousness are deeply interconnected. No consciousness, no life...

Quote from: IAMREALITY
No, instead the paper is all about reincarnation.  That upon death, the soul enters a new body.  Is that what you believe?
And would that really be consciousness surviving?  I've always said that if reincarnation existed, but our new mind had no memory whatsoever of our old, then isn't it really a distinction without a difference?  Would it matter that it was the 'same' soul, if as far as it was concerned it was 'new'? Would that really be consciousness surviving at all??

Assuming consciousness originates from quantum interactions in living organisms, I believe consciousness could happens in creating reality through entanglement of space and time. The universe could therefore be a product of our consciousness and death an illusion humans have adopted through religions and culture. What must be researched is how life occurs in immortal organisms.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2503370/Quantum-physics-proves-IS-afterlife-claims-scientist.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality#Organisms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentric_universe
The bliss of ignorance is deeper in the region of tyranny.

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #91 on: 28/06/2016 18:27:16 »
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

NDE is an evidence that consciousness may survives death.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2783030/Research-near-death-experiences-reveals-awareness-continue-brain-shut-down.html


NDE's most certainly are not.  They're merely evidence that the brain is capable of masterful perceptive manipulation.  It's fascinating what it's capable of. 

In relation to your 'study':

http://doubtfulnews.com/2014/10/one-not-too-impressive-study-does-not-prove-life-after-death/

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #92 on: 28/06/2016 22:54:46 »


1) Consciousness caused the universe to exist?
2) The universe created consciousnesses?
3) None of the above?
4) There is a primordial consciousness that existed before the big bang that contemplated existence and created our universe?
5) Add your own?

(My preference is number 4)

1) The Universe exists without consciousness, consciousness is not something that create an Universe although consciousness can create illusions.

2)I prefer consciousness was created in the Universe ,

4)  Doubtful,

5)Consciousness is energies state of being self aware in 3 dimensional form .

Do not make the mistake of thinking consciousness exists after death, information exists after death but not your consciousness, Antoine Lavoisier discovered nothing is ever lost, but he never accounted for consciousness, the ''energies'' that are within you contain information, this information is you but is processed by the brain and called the consciousness, when you pass away your energies return to join the cosmos whole, information of you fragmented all over the cosmos, it is quite beautiful to consider we retain ourselves in information form and the information can never be lost, a bit transferring from consciousness to the ''master boot record'', retrieving the information is however complex with the instant fragmentation.


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Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #93 on: 28/06/2016 23:51:33 »
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

There's absolutely no evidence that conscience couldn't exist without a brain, unless perhaps theoretically, which here is a very weak evidence at most. Empirically, to demonstrate it, you had to know what's consciousness in the first instance and then know how to detect and record it's existence. Thus, you could prove that there's no consciousness  remaining after removing or destroying a brain or that part or all of consciousness remained after that. There's no such experiment in the whole history of humanity (at least recorded).

There's only evidence that by losing parts of the brain by disease or accident you lose mental functions, and this is might be as strong a proof that consciousness is a physical substance as observing that by cutting a nerve you lose muscular action or sensitivity.

As I told before, I'm preparing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese box by Searle, to demonstrate it.
« Last Edit: 29/06/2016 07:57:24 by kasparovitch »

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #94 on: 29/06/2016 00:25:36 »
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

There's absolutely no evidence that conscience couldn't exist without a brain, unless perhaps theoretically, which here is a very weak evidence at most. Empirically, to demonstrate it, you had to know what's consciousness in the first instance and then know how to detect and record it's existence. Thus, you could prove that there's no consciousness  remaining after removing or destroying a brain or that part or all of consciousness remained after that. There's no such experiment in the whole history of humanity (at least recorded).

There's only evidence that by losing parts of the brain by disease or accident you lose mental functions, and this is as strong a proof that consciousness is a physical substance as observing that by cutting a nerve you lose muscular action or sensitivity.

As I told before, I'm preparing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese box by Searle, to demonstrate it.

Lol

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #95 on: 29/06/2016 11:26:33 »
First of all, Every bit of evidence there is suggests that consciousness could not exist without the brain.  On the other hand, there is ZERO evidence that it could.

There's absolutely no evidence that conscience couldn't exist without a brain, unless perhaps theoretically, which here is a very weak evidence at most. Empirically, to demonstrate it, you had to know what's consciousness in the first instance and then know how to detect and record it's existence. Thus, you could prove that there's no consciousness  remaining after removing or destroying a brain or that part or all of consciousness remained after that. There's no such experiment in the whole history of humanity (at least recorded).

There's only evidence that by losing parts of the brain by disease or accident you lose mental functions, and this is might be as strong a proof that consciousness is a physical substance as observing that by cutting a nerve you lose muscular action or sensitivity.

As I told before, I'm preparing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese box by Searle, to demonstrate it.

Here is another Poem I wrote sometime ago, about death and what I think happens in the moments after we die and leave our mortal bodies.

Emmanuel's Light (Emmanuel is God)
 
A poem by Alan McDougall 2001

Come fly towards majestic Orion with me
At great speed to our majestic god we flee
Through a wide river at last we fly
Reaching out to a great light beyond the sky

Towards the sides of the north nearer and nearer we flew
Arrayed in spotless white robes given to you
Across a vast space of infinite night
Together clothed in glory we continued our flight

Oh great heavenly cavern so measureless to man
See before majestic Emmanuel gather all who can
By mighty angels through glorious clouds we are driven
Closer and closer to gods mighty throne in the midst of heaven

At last to those mighty gates of heaven we came
Baptized by El Shaddias light all were the same (El Shaddia is another name of God)
In joyful luminous glory all creation did sing
By that stupendous realm of the holy king

A mighty voice shook all creation and rang through the air
Saying loud gather all around great EL Shaddais colossal chair
Look at god’s right a wonder is seen to rise
“Oh my beloved son at last I can give you your PRIZE”

Bathed in beautiful grandeur of the one who had atoned
Countless multitudes stood quiet before Emmanuel enthroned
Joyfully before Emmanuel at last
Faces glowing by lakes colored by golden riven glass
Rejoicing at a life that would now never pass

« Last Edit: 29/06/2016 11:28:34 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #96 on: 29/06/2016 14:22:26 »
 [::)]

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #97 on: 29/06/2016 14:26:19 »
Here's my own :

Nothing happens when you die
For God is nothing but a Lie
Your mind will turn to only dust
Your theory Alan, is a bust...

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Offline phyti

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #98 on: 29/06/2016 16:11:36 »
I will use the book authored by one who would know.

 consciousness:
eccl. 9:5
the living are conscious they will die,  the dead are conscious of nothing
ps. 146:4
his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, his thoughts perish
eccl. 3:19
There is the same eventuality for man and beast. They come from the dust and return to the dust.

soul (synonym for living creature):
gen. 2:7
the man formed from the dust and with the breath of life became a living soul
gen. 1:21
animals referred to as souls
ezek. 18:4
the soul that is sinning will die
____________________________________________________________________

Personal knowledge

 near death experience:
These events are rare exceptions to typical deaths, and if actual recovery from death would be equivalent to a resurrection. The explanation is more likely an incomplete and inaccurate clinical definition of death. Medical science is relatively new to humanity.
The experiences of the subjects involved are real, but confined to the mind. The fact that they have any awareness of bright lights, departed family members, etc. is proof they are not dead. Their visions are conditioned by past testimonials and ignorance concerning death. There is a parallel regarding mass suggestion with victims of alien abductions. The immortality of the soul was one (false) idea to circumvent death.
 

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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #99 on: 29/06/2016 16:35:10 »
I will use the book authored by one who would know.

 consciousness:
eccl. 9:5
the living are conscious they will die,  the dead are conscious of nothing
ps. 146:4
his spirit goes out, he returns to the ground, his thoughts perish
eccl. 3:19
There is the same eventuality for man and beast. They come from the dust and return to the dust.

soul (synonym for living creature):
gen. 2:7
the man formed from the dust and with the breath of life became a living soul
gen. 1:21
animals referred to as souls
ezek. 18:4
the soul that is sinning will die
____________________________________________________________________

Personal knowledge

 near death experience:
These events are rare exceptions to typical deaths, and if actual recovery from death would be equivalent to a resurrection. The explanation is more likely an incomplete and inaccurate clinical definition of death. Medical science is relatively new to humanity.
The experiences of the subjects involved are real, but confined to the mind. The fact that they have any awareness of bright lights, departed family members, etc. is proof they are not dead. Their visions are conditioned by past testimonials and ignorance concerning death. There is a parallel regarding mass suggestion with victims of alien abductions. The immortality of the soul was one (false) idea to circumvent death.

Hey, I know that book!  It's a good work of fiction!

As far as your thoughts on NDE's, I couldn't agree more.  You pretty much nailed it.