[IAMREALITY]

there's still zero logical reason to believe

Well, the logical reason dates back to Plato and Aristotle and is unsettled to this day. The substrata to that logic lye in front of your eyes.

As I told you before, until the day you can build a consciousness in a lab, however simple it is, you cannot prove that it depends only on atoms.

My epistemological discussion finishes here as this topic is about consciousness after death.

I assure you, that day will come.  You make it sound like it should be easy.. Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play.  Not such an easy machine to build.  But that's only right now to say that consciousness has yet to be replicated. It lends zero to the other side of the argument that there is life after death.  It's not like right now all evidence ponts to there being one, and scientists are in a lab trying to prove it wrong. No, instead it's like I said, there is zero anything that lends credibility towards that ideal, other than merely because someone "wants it" to be true.  So I'd rather you answer the direct question I posed to you in my earlier reply, if you can. 

[kasparovitch]

Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play

Just need the algorithm and for that a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough.

A sheet of paper and a pencil would be a luxury for Leonardo Davinci, who could devise a flying machine well before anyone could build one or for Democritus, who postulated the existence of the atom more than 2,000 years before anyone could prove how right he was.

[IAMREALITY]

Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play

Just need the algorithm and for that a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough.

A sheet of paper and a pencil would be a luxury for Leonardo Davinci, who could devise a flying machine well before anyone could build one or for Democritus, who postulated the existence of the atom more than 2,000 years before anyone could prove how right he was.

DaVinci's machine didn't require billions of components. And you're talking about an algorithm that would need to mimic billions of components and mechanisms, including ones that are not yet even fully understood.  So you are wayyyyy over simplifying the task at hand. 

But again, I ask that you please answer my direct question posed to you in an earlier reply, if you can...  Thanks. 

[kasparovitch]

IAMREALITY, you don't need billions of components for an algorithm of muscle action or vision.

Computers can even see better than humans or play chess better than Karpov.

If you need billions of components for the simplest form of consciousness, then maybe something is missing there.

You have such powerful computers today and still find my algorithm an oversimplification?

All you need is add a few bits and make the computer know it exists, as Descartes, the most attacked philosopher ad hominem of all times, would put it almost 400 years ago.

But an algorithm on a sheet of paper or a notepad or whatever will do for now.

I'm sorry that a few ideas are messed up above, but I'm sure you can dissect all at once.

Note that I have no idea if the consciousness survives death. But there are philosophical theories based in logic that admit it.

Can you please repeat your question? I must have missed it.

[IAMREALITY]

IAMREALITY, you don't need billions of components for an algorithm of muscle action or vision.

Computers can even see better than humans or play chess better than Karpov.

If you need billions of components for the simplest form of consciousness, then maybe something is missing there.

You have such powerful computers today and still find my algorithm an oversimplification?

All you need is add a few bits and make the computer know it exists, as Descartes, the most attacked philosopher ad hominem of all times, would put it almost 400 years ago.

But an algorithm on a sheet of paper or a notepad or whatever will do for now.

I'm sorry that a few ideas are messed up above, but I'm sure you can dissect all at once.

Note that I have no idea if the consciousness survives death. But there are philosophical theories based in logic that admit it.

Can you please repeat your question? I must have missed it.

Yes,  you are beyond oversimplifying it.  No, it would not be that easy.  This isn't chess we're talking about here.

I also really shouldn't have to spoonfeed you.  Scroll up and read my question about why you'd be on that side of the equation if emotions were taken out of it.  Scroll up for the specifics.  It's one page to scroll through. It shouldn't take you all that long...

[kasparovitch]

If I asked you for a machine that could play chess better than any human 100 years ago you'd tell me it's oversimplication.

Now in the XXI century you say that creating an algorithm for the simplest form of consciousness is oversimplification.

Maybe we're missing something.

I'll scroll through tomorrow, as it's too late here by now. I promise.

[IAMREALITY]

NDE is not a question of honesty. It a question of people fooling themselves. I believe they had experiences, but not ones that actually happened in reality.

Also, testimony is not evidence.

You can believe what you like , but the experiences are real glimpses into what come after death. What you are saying is like as a hypothetical answering a person or doubting him/her when he informs you he has just come back from the city of Timbucktoo, with you replying 'come of there is no such place" when in fact it is a real city in a small  African country by the name of Mali?

What you believe or what I believe is redundant to the actual truth, simply because Truth is Truth regardless of what our tiny finite minds think about

Alani

On what basis can you make such a statement that it's a real glimpse into what comes after death? How the heck do you know that's what after death would be? Based on what exactly?  Because you feel like that's what it would be like? Because you think that's what you were experiencing?

There's zero reason to believe in something that there's zero evidence in reality to support, merely because you feel like it. Fact is, I had the same experience.  I know the exact vividness you speak of, that same ethereal feeling. That same overpowering sense of beauty and wonder and peace and comfort. This sort of sensation and higher level thinking that I could never get under normal circumstances.  But I still let science rule my logic, I still didn't jump to such a wild conclusion, and that's cause reality matters. Cause facts matter.  They always will. And no matter how magical the experience was, I still knew that there is zero evidence in reality for life after death and absolutely no mechanism within anything we know about reality, within anything ever learned in physics or the sciences, literally zero mechanism within our entire body of knowledge, that would even begin to give credibility to how it possibly could be so.  And furthermore, there's mountains upon mountains of evidence supporting it not being possible supporting the fact that consciousness is completely tied to our physical form.  Every single possible point within which side would be right, literally every bit of fact and evidence, points to there being no life after death, period. So I care about facts.  Cause facts matter. And when there's that much evidence in front of me and literally no evidence, none at all, towards the other side, then yeah, there was no way that was a conclusion I was gonna jump to.  Cause it didn't matter how vivid an experience it was.  I learned a long time ago how to be objective, how to take my emotions out of the equation, and how to let my critical thinking skills arrive at conclusions instead.

And years later I found it was the right thing to have in fact done. Cause at first, it was this overwhelming and vivid experience that absolutely was on a higher level and that at first gave me struggle to not accept as some life after death experience.  Because I had thought just like you, this wow, that was surreal, so much more vivid and aware and just, well, peaceful and powerful and pleasant and just on a higher level.  Nothing in reality had ever felt like that, so how could reality explain it? But my critical thinking skills, rationality and logic helped guide me as always, and I arrived at the correct conclusion that it is merely how powerful the mind is, its hold on perception, and just how powerfully it can trick you. . And how did I know years later that I was right? Cause years later I did peyote and acid and tripped my damn face off, and at my peak of my trip,  I was right back in that realm. The exact same realm. Just as vivid, just as powerful, just as ethereal, no death necessary.  Just chemicals causing my brain to short circuit and bring me there.  I call it trip world.  That's what you experienced. Trip world, nothing more.  I know this cause I've experienced both.  I know the level was identical. I have that knowledge and experience.  Yes, the mind is that powerful all on its own. No new dimensions or wild concepts rooted in zero evidence that break all the knowledge of physics we know are necessary.  No death is necessary.  Just smoke some peyote eat some shrooms, while swallowing a bunch of tabs of acid and maybe smoking some hash. Trust me, you'll be back in that exact realm. I'll never forget the day I did all that, how high a level I was on that day tripping.. We to this day call that day "Utopia", because of how high a level of wisdom we were on.  It was the same realm. It was the day I learned with absolute certainty that what I had experienced years early was nothing more than a product of my own mind.  I knew it with certainty.  Cause it was the same level.  The same one.  Trip world.  No death necessary. 

[IAMREALITY]

By your own admittance you took acid and by that you are somehow, illogically an expert on the near death experiencing, however, "you are lying" there is absolutely no similarity between a near death experience and an acid trip. An acid trip is a form of self induced insanity.

It was the exact same realm. No death necessary. I know you don't wanna accept that, and maybe you've never tripped before, or like that anyway, but I assure you, it's the exact same realm. Sorry dude. They're identical. (I know, cause I've experienced both). 

[IAMREALITY]

I would also ask you to please refrain from personal attacks such as calling me a liar, when I've done nothing but tell the truth with as much blunt honesty as I can muster. Thanks.

[IAMREALITY]

Just by your repeating that statement you are reinforcing the fact that you are lying.  An acid trip is nothing like a near death experience, it is a form of self induced insanity "Dude" And I don't "wanna" accept  that because I do not believe what liars say . 

Below is an excerpt of someone who actually used LSD

I felt this 10 foot big man carrying me up some stairs. I felt as light as a feather. I thought I was going to heaven but when I finally opened my eyes I was back in the room, alive, with my friend sitting beside me. But then I thought I was dead. I didn't know I was alive. I got a glimpse of hell which you cannot imagine. It's nothing like what people say it is. It's all about repetition of your fears. I was on acid, so what I saw was strange. In reality of my sight, I saw my friend kill me again and again and again and again, forever. But the truth was that I was afraid that the only people I trusted would go against me and try and harm me. That was my greatest fear I guess, and death of course. So that's what happened. That's what hell's about.

No, I'm not lying whatsoever.  I'm relaying the facts.  You apparently know nothing about tripping so you really can't credibly give an opinion on it whatsoever.  But I can.  Cause I've experienced both.  Same realm.  No death necessary.  And anyone who has tripped knows that no two trips are the same. Posting someone else's trip to try and have knowledge on the subject is a failed exercise. And trust me, I'm the king of trip world.  That was my world.  Hell, I miss it sometimes.  But alas, adulthood. Yet still, anyone who's done it knows the different forms of trip can take and sometimes having the right guide can make all the difference. I brought so many people to that level. Because I knew how. Yes it was the same Realm. No death necessary. You obviously don't have any experience with it, so you really have no ability to dispute it. But please, spare me the calling me a liar garbage. If it's one thing I don't do it's lie.  I feel no need. Being the voice of blunt reality suits me far better.

[IAMREALITY]

I would also ask you to please refrain from personal attacks such as calling me a liar, when I've done nothing but tell the truth with as much blunt honesty as I can muster. Thanks.

"Then be truthful" and stop trying to put yourself over as an expert on every topic on the forum and get a little humility in the process. The fact, however, as far as what you stated in this thread is that it is obvious that you have posted a very long essay of "terminological inexactitudes"?

I've never been anything but truthful. Now please cease and desist with your personal attacks. They are against the rules and not conducive to discussion. I have not attacked you at all and would ask you to refrain from doing it as well. Thanks.

[IAMREALITY]

And for what it's worth Al,  I'm not trying to convince you. I know there isn't anything that can be said that will get you to realize just how much a product of your mind it was. Instead, my goal is merely to relay accurate information and my own experience of both, and my own identical experience as yours that had me almost thinking the same ways, but that years later I had personally verified as a product of my mind after my trip proved to me that no death was necessary to achieve that level.  No death necessary whatsoever.  And again, that's just me relaying information.  Not to convince you, as I already know that to be impossible.  But instead for anyone else reading, to make up their own mind.  I'm merely relaying my accurate experience and knowledge.  As always, it's up to any given reader to come to their own conclusions.  But yeah, I'm always gonna relay whatever accurate information I have on any given topic, including this one.  I'm going to bed now.  Goodnight. 

[IAMREALITY]

And for what it's worth Al,  I'm not trying to convince you. I know there isn't anything that can be said that will get you to realize just how much a product of your mind it was. Instead, my goal is merely to relay accurate information and my own experience of both, and my own identical experience as yours that had me almost thinking the same ways, but that years later I had personally verified as a product of my mind after my trip proved to me that no death was necessary to achieve that level.  No death necessary whatsoever.  And again, that's just me relaying information.  Not to convince you, as I already know that to be impossible.  But instead for anyone else reading, to make up their own mind.  I'm merely relaying my accurate experience and knowledge.  As always, it's up to any given reader to come to their own conclusions.  But yeah, I'm always gonna relay whatever accurate information I have on any given topic, including this one.  I'm going to bed now.  Goodnight. 

If you indeed had a near death experience, which I reserve the right to doubt then "please give an account of it", so that I can reserve judgement?

So someone who talks about how people who have them should be believed now questions me on mine.  How ironic.  Yes, I absolutely had one.  And again please,stop calling me out as a liar.  And forgive me if I don't feel the need to share my very personal experience with a random internet stranger who'd be ready to pounce the second I post it.  I feel no desire to share my story with you nor feel any need to otherwise.

"identical to psychoses or bluntly put madness".

Lol that's just quite simply not true at all

By contrast during an acid trip, your heart is beating and supplying your brain with all the blood and nutrients it needs, and what is happening is that the LSD is causing random eletro- messages to be passed back and forward in the brain , to mimic an actual experience, which are extremely bizarre and always false.

Both experiences are always false, both products of perception.  I never claimed that the mechanisms by which those states are attained are identical, not whatsoever.  What I'm saying is that the end result is the same, the power of the mind to alter one's perception in some amazingly powerful ways was the same, regardless of what needed to fall into place for the mind to do such things.   The point is that it is not only pending death that cause the brain to have an altered perception that leads to some extremely powerful, vivid, higher level, other worldly, ethereal and memorable experiences.  That there are other ways to achieve the same altered perception result with no death necessary.  Ketamine administration for example has been widely shown to mimic NDE's completely.

Again by contrast most near death experiences are ordered, logical, beautiful, life changing and vividly remembered and absolutely nothing like an acid trip, hallucination or a dream in an active brain with a blood supply>

Can you tell me from your own experience what an acid trip is like?  Have you ever had one?  I will say that many, if not most, LSD or other hallucinogenic trips can be very disorderly etc.  My point is that there are some that are not, and that it is possible when tripping sometimes to have that exact same powerful experience, the same feeling of peace and higher level existence, that same ethereal feeling as if you've entered a completely different dimension and are in a completely different state of mind, where you see everything so clearly, so vividly, where everything is beautiful, and you feel more aware and connected than you ever have.  I know this because I experienced it directly.  I had an NDE and I have also tripped many times (many moons ago).  On some of these trips, especially once I learned how to rule them, I would absolutely be in that realm and overall the experience was identical to my NDE, as far as how my perception felt and senses felt, as well as my state of mind and clarity of thought.  I experienced both ends of my argument and remember the feelings of each side vividly, what I saw, how I felt, the state of mind I seemed to be in and what my perception felt like.  For all intents and purposes the 'level' I was on, the dimension I seemed to exist on, was identical. 

Now granted, not every trip, or most even, will produce such a sensation.  But can they?  Oh absolutely.  Because I know.  Because I experienced it.  And because many others via acid (or DMT, or Ketamine - plenty on google about those 2) have as well.  That's my only point.  That death is not the only trigger for NDE's.  And that chemically induced ones can be every bit as powerful and life altering.  Because perception is an incredibly powerful thing, and your mind rules it...

But you can have the last word.  I've said all that's relevant at this point.  I'm moving on.

[Alan McDougall]

Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.

[Alan McDougall]

Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan

Can you describe your NDE?

Yes here it is (I had a previous experiencing in 1994 which was much more detailed)


Disclaimer.

What I write below is subjectively true and I am not trying to make a case out of proving whether there is an existence after our mortal bodies perish. It is simple; I saw what I saw and it has a profound and lasting positive effect on me and how I now relate to others
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The night my heart stopped and I flat-lined


If I had any doubts about life after death I have none now, each time my heart stopped my soul or consciousness left my body and went into other dimensions of existence.

Hello everyone please read this updated, edited version, which better describes what happened to me night my heart stopped beating in 2011

On the night of  18th, August 2011 at approximately 9.30 pm, my heart stopped beating numerous times, both at home and later on the  Hospital resuscitation table.

On resuscitation table due to third stage or total, AV heart block. I went through the whole drama of my heart stopping, flat- lining over and over again, adrenaline, atropine were injected directly into my heart and the shock paddles and chest depressions used over and over again in a desperate effort to get my heart to beat again on its own without  help.

I had taken a nap on that Thursday night, and a dear friend of mine, Tony Martin was somehow moved to phoned late at night, a thing he had never done before.

I woke up with the phone ringing due to his call, with great fear because my heart was reacting in a manner that I had never experienced until that moment, it was going heart crazy in my chest hesitating then beating and then, almost stopping completely,

I cried out to my daughter Desiree for her to get my wife to phone for an ambulance

My wife immediately called the for the ambulance and they got to my home in ten minutes. The hospital is less than a half kilometre from my home and I was there in five minutes and when I arrived, expert medical attention was immediate.

Note! If my friend of some thirty-five years, Tony Martin, had not phoned, from the town of George in South Africa to Johannesburg some thousand miles away, at the exact moment he did, I would never have woken up and would have died in my sleep.

I am sure God moved Tony that night to phone me at the exact moment he did, which for him was a very unusual hour at about 9 pm. Tony never phones me so late at night and maybe he can explain what made him call me or why he was moved to call me at that exact moment in  time.

His phone call woke me up from a deep sleep from which I would not have awakened and from and I would have died in my sleep, because I was unaware in my sleeping state the fact that my heart was going wild in my chest, a "somnambulist battle of life or death"

Tony could hear over the phone that there was something really wrong going on which me. He said over the phone “Alan McDougall you don’t sound right, are you OK?’ I replied “No”!! “Tony something is very wrong” “you phone back a little later”.

I put down the phone and could feel my heart actually vibrating in a frightening way, it would stop completely and I would lose consciousness for a while, and then regain awareness, but not know where I was, or who I was, as I struggled to survive, during this frightening life or death episode.

I became ghastly pale and started to sweat profusely. I did not realise at this stage know how very close to death I came that night.

It is very scary when I looked at wife or daughter and saw them actually becoming dimmer and dimmer in my eyes because my brain was being deprived of oxygen.

It was then that I began then to move in and out of consciousness on the very edge of death.

At the hospital, my blood pressure reading was zero.

I saw my daughter Desiree in the passage and called out weakly for her to tell my wife Denise, that I was having a heart attack.

I do not think my wife believed me, but after looking at me with my face which now looked like death and sweating body, she called the ambulance, which most fortunately to my survival reached our home in less than ten minutes. (South Africa's 911)

I now entered a life-threatening desperate state of AV heart block ( Heart stopping and starting) I recall very little of what happened to me that night, because I had begun to go in and out of consciousness, until I finally became fully conscious the next morning with a temporary heart pacemaker installed in my heart to keep me alive.

I had to wait a day or two in the hospital for Doctor Rodney King Cardiologist, to get my medical aid to agree to the fitting of a permanent heart pacemaker, under my skin in my chest wall. This pacemaker cost about sixty thousand South African Rand or about nine thousand American (USA) dollars.

I only conscious of a just a little of what was going on in those three hours that the team of committed doctors who refused to give up on me in the very difficult task of restoring my heart beat and save my life This was a battle of life or death

However, I have lately  begun to remember more and more about some rather odd things I saw and heard while on the resuscitation table that night. 

Denise, my wife was kept in the dark by the medical staff and did not know until the next morning how really sick her husband has been or that he had metaphorically knocked on the gates of death, survived to live again, hopefully, many more years as husband and father to his children.

Over the period of three hours, each time my heart stopped and I  flat-line, I went somewhere, not of this world and each time the emergency team of doctors at the Hospital battled to got my heart to beat  Each time it stopped I subjectively went into a comfortable dark void for an eternity and I came back. an objective few seconds later

Each time my heart stopped I seem to  go away for an eternity to elsewhere, but when they started it up again, I returned to life from this elsewhere seemingly in contrast, without even the smallest moment of time passing.

I remember being vaguely aware and conscious of what was going on around me. But kept going in and out of consciousness during the continual attempts at resuscitation.

The team of doctors and nursing assistants were desperately trying to get a needle into one of my veins. I have very poor veins and they are fairly deep under my skin and difficult to locate. Later back in the emergency care ward after I finally became fully conscious I noticed that both my arms and hands were full bruises and needle pricks.

It took three hours of effort on the resuscitation table before the doctors were able to stabilise my heart and to installed a temporary pacemaker to maintain my pulse between 65/110 beats per/minute, instead of the zero to 15 it had been beating/not beating most of the time.

I heard them call for atropine and adrenaline, which they injected directly into my heart. When even this did not keep my heart beating as it should, the electric paddles were used to shock my heart and get it beating as it should.

On my return to the emergency ward, I noticed both sides of my chest, ribs, or torso were very painful to touch as it hurt to breath for a day or two after the event

The doctor said if I had arrived hospital even five minutes later it would have been impossible to revive me. I am 75 years of age now and would not have minded if I had died then'

But I suppose there must be some reason for me to carry on with life or activities yet to do because it is true that a whole lot of favourable coincidences came together to make it possible for me to survive, what should have been impossible to survive under any other circumstances.

I really came as close to total death that night as possible, without actually dying, and was fortunate enough to be brought back to quality life by a great team of doctors, to live again and be with my family and friends a little longer.

In fact, since the heart pacemaker was fitted I have felt healthier and maybe the heart irregularity was a long-standing problem of which I was unaware.

I vaguely remember being on the table with people pricking me with needles all over, my arms and hands.

Because I was continually being revived by the medical team , I floated in and out of consciousness, into the Other-World realms and then back to this one the resuscitation table, this continued until  my heart was fully supported by the doctors, who had managed to get my heart to beat with a temporary heart pacemaker.

Afterlife

I had no tunnel or meeting of a being of light, which is usual for the near death experience. I went directly into a gloomy large dark cave and saw countless people sitting in the dark gloom.

There was some enormous evil entity, so pitch black that it seemed like tar and did not reflect any light. Only later when I saw the Golden Light that I thought might be Jesus, as he approached the dark entity, it shrank away from him.

Was this dark entity Satan the Devil?

When I was elsewhere on the other side in some dimension or the other, I saw a huge tree with a large number of books all around its huge trunk.

In my opinion, this great tree was the "Tree of Knowledge ?

Just by attempting to read what was on the covers of those books, it was somehow brought to my understanding that within them, were all the answers to all my questions I had pondered over most of my life  These books also contained within them all the knowledge, wisdom and mysteries of existence.

Among the many books, was very much larger one, much larger than the other rest which was scattered randomly around the huge trunk of this beautiful tree. I assume the very large book was a consolidation of all that was in all the smaller books.

When I tried to lift the large book, I found  it was much too heavy for me to carry, so I decided to leave it there under the tree and return later for it.

Maybe when I finally do die and go to heaven, I will go back to that beautiful tree and retrieve this book which I think might the "The book of Knowledge"

During the moments that I flat-lined, I went somewhere outside of this earthly dimension into strange places outside of three-dimensional space and time as we know it is the physical universe.

I walked through a doorway of sorts and saw numerous people gathered apparently to welcome me into the afterlife.

I did not recognise any of them, maybe because the scenario too fleeting and was over in less than a blink of an eye.

Maybe they were some of my beloved passed over family members or friends,  but I cannot say what I saw was factual or not. However, what the were gathering for seemed to be was some sort of a welcome home party or  wedding reception.

Although not in this particulates event, I thought about my beloved Dog Bully who had died fifty years prior and remembered the many dreams I had when I felt his loving doggy presence.

When on the other side of life I also one saw a beautiful pulsating sphere of golden light that I took for the loving Spiritual Essence of the Lord Jesus, because to me he is the only he can emanate perfect peace and love.

I now have a permanent pacemaker in my chest which should last another six years and despite the great shock, I got that night, I am feeling much better and very alive and well.
Note; the medical term for what happened to me is Total AV heat block.

By Alan McDougall (2016)

[IAMREALITY]

Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.

Ok, I'm just curious about something...  Do you believe in evolution?  That we essentially evolved from apes etc?  If so, I'd like you to answer a question if you could... At what point in that evolution, at what point in time, after the universe had already existed for billions upon billions of years, did the evolution from ape to man cause this new higher dimension to suddenly activate?  Meaning, at what point in the evolutionary chain would you pinpoint the exact moment that it went from "oh, it's just a cro-magnon, they just die" to "ahhhh, here's this new higher level realm! I must prove myself worthy down here first to get there, but I'm goin!!!"?

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.  When would you say, well, if you believe in evolution of course, that it went from merely death to suddenly having this test that must be passed in order to enter this higher realm?  Just curious how far back in time you'd go and when you'd pinpoint it.  I'm asking with sincerity.

Also, if the whole purpose is to pass this test, what about all those that die young before they've had the chance?  What becomes of their consciousness?  Just curious your take on that as well.

[kasparovitch]

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...

[Alan McDougall]

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...

The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?

[dlorde]

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny...

Modern embryology considers that an exaggeration; some features of an embryo reflect the embryonic features of its evolutionary antecedents.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

[dlorde]

The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?

Not exactly... memories are encoded in the connectivity and responsiveness of networks of neurons, and consciousness is a process involving patterns of activity across those networks.