[Alan McDougall]

Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Consciousness "Does" continue after the death of the physical body, the body is only the clothes of the soul, for its brief existence in this world. Why exist as a mortal beings in this world  because, it is a school from which we must graduate or fail resulting in either advancing to higher realms of existence or descend into hell like realms.

Ok, I'm just curious about something...  Do you believe in evolution?  That we essentially evolved from apes etc?  If so, I'd like you to answer a question if you could... At what point in that evolution, at what point in time, after the universe had already existed for billions upon billions of years, did the evolution from ape to man cause this new higher dimension to suddenly activate?  Meaning, at what point in the evolutionary chain would you pinpoint the exact moment that it went from "oh, it's just a cro-magnon, they just die" to "ahhhh, here's this new higher level realm! I must prove myself worthy down here first to get there, but I'm goin!!!"?

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.  When would you say, well, if you believe in evolution of course, that it went from merely death to suddenly having this test that must be passed in order to enter this higher realm?  Just curious how far back in time you'd go and when you'd pinpoint it.  I'm asking with sincerity.

Also, if the whole purpose is to pass this test, what about all those that die young before they've had the chance?  What becomes of their consciousness?  Just curious your take on that as well.

I do not believe in blind evolution I believe in "directed intelligent designed evolution" and will not be drawn into an augment about it with you!

[IAMREALITY]

Just curious when that transition took place and what the trigger for it was.

As ontogeny reproduces phylogeny, maybe both questions have the same answer.

It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear. Or perhaps memories begin to form at that time.

There is no definitive explanation for this and one of the most interesting theories I've read is that this is due to brain growth, which disarranges previous memories.

If you believe in consciousness surviving after death, maybe this point marks something...

That wasn't the question. Please read it again. 

[IAMREALITY]

I do not believe in blind evolution I believe in "directed intelligent designed evolution" and will not be drawn into an augment about it with you!

I have no idea what that means.  This is science.  You either believe in evolution or you don't.  I'll take that as you don't.  Okie dokie.  Thanks.

[kasparovitch]

The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?

I think that can be a good analogy. If you have all the hardware and no software and turn the computer on, you'll get nothing from it, even though it works and is functioning.

Software is that something it is lacking and must be delivered to it in some way, not necessarily physically, so that it will work.

I anticipate perfectionist people that I don't think this is the perfect analogy, or the problem of consciousness would be solved now.

Modern embryology considers that an exaggeration; some features of an embryo reflect the embryonic features of its evolutionary antecedents.

I told about an aphorism, and thus it's not supposed to be a precision or scientists wouldn't need to study phylogeny any longer. As an aphorism, it only need to be true enough.

It may be widely believed, but there's no evidence for it. There's some evidence that brain development is affected by experiences in the womb; so, for example, exposure to music or rhythm may enhance development of those areas of the brain. Calling potentiated development of that kind memories is a bit of a stretch. But areas used in memory, such as the hippocampus, are underdeveloped at that point, and it takes some while after birth for perceptions to become organised enough to allow coherent memory storage & retrieval. This doesn't stop people reporting having such memories, but as we now know, autobiographical memories can readily be constructed from second hand information, or imagined events.

This is a "belief", as you say, shared by most, if not all, neuroscientists. That doesn't mean that the brain is functionless until that time. I'm not telling about coherent memories, but about memories in an absolute sense. The brain can indeed work well enough without memories, especially for a baby. Perhaps you should read Antonio Damasio, for instance, who describes children with hydranencephalia, who lack gray matter, and a person who had no [explicit] memory at all and had the greatest amnesia ever remembered, after an herpetic encephalitis.

Children with hydranenchepalia are diagnosed late exactly because in early ages gray matter doesn't make a difference. This doesn't mean that newborns have raw cotton inside their heads, as they can recognize their mother's voice from a lot of voices, something they learned in utero, and have many many more capabilities.

[Alan McDougall]

Infinity Road by Alan McDougall

as I approach the infinite long dark night

I resist and resist it with all my might

I try and try to comprehend this end

to which all men must descend

---------------------------------------------------------------

is it a sleep that all must take?

or is it an eternal end that all must make?

I like to dream of awakening in light not dark

in a beautiful place to which all righteous men depart

--------------------------------------------------------------

do we sleep the sleep of forever?

or do we awake some other place together?

does the answer to this ultimate question

remain forever a process of eternal redemption?

------------------------------------------------------------------

on one glorious day from timeless sleep I awoke

and heard a beautiful and kind voice that sweetly spoke

my faithful son at last you have became to understand

exactly your place in this troubled land

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

you my beloved have truly never ceased to seek

the infinite destiny that in eternity for you I keep

so for you and your family no eternal death awaits

because of your zeal to know your fate

--------------------------------------------------------------------

soon I will bring you all to this most holy place

and there I will you never forsake

very soon, you shall hear a sweet call in the dark of night

come, come into the holy glory of the father spirit of mighty might

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I walk in the cool of evening along sweet meadows I have never seen

I smell the beauty of grasses that have never been

strange golden streams of crystal waterflows

as blue glory of mighty skies above glows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I search the long forgotten memories in the attic of my mind

along the twisted channels the very depth soul that I could not find

I see before me things so wonderful I knew from long ago

I puzzle over the enigma of knowing what I do not know

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

out there far beyond the knowledge of any man is revealed

something of such great mystery to it my heart had appealed

why have I on this one thing so many years stalled?

is this infinite knowledge from many man would be appalled?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

walking on through the shade of great trees that give eternal life

I hear the sweet forgotten voice that comes to free all from everlasting strife

high green new grasses in this new do land grow

as transparent waters chuckle dance, sparkle, and flow


By Alan McDougall (composed 16/2/2005)

[hamdani yusuf]

The brain could be equated to the hard drive of a computer memories and consciousness as non-materiel like the software programing?

Software need physical things to store it, such as CD, Hard drive, tape, flash disk, etc.
What is the equivalent for the soul?

[kasparovitch]

Mr. Alan, can you please modify your last post so that your text is converted from quotation to plain text, as it's hard to read in that format. Thanks.

[Alan McDougall]

Mr. Alan, can you please modify your last post so that your text is converted from quotation to plain text, as it's hard to read in that format. Thanks.

I tried but could not get it right so I will post it again as a separate reply!

[Alan McDougall]

Existence -was -Existence-is -Existence-will be.

Within the writhing cosmic cloud of magnetic flux energy, that the always was, took on new form, evolved and coalesced again into a dense oneness of primordial glowing energy, which is and was and will be, the primordial source that moves between the everlasting cycle of order to chaos and chaos back to order.

It became thought.

Within a Timeless zone before existence came to be , a pool of infinite pure consideration held within it all the hopes, dreams,  for creating new order within the realms of existence and reality and these immense waves of pure magnetic thought gradually coalesced and a mighty sentient consciousness emerged out of previous chaos.

It knew itself and said "What am I"?
 
Then it said
 
I AM
 
I am recorded the evolution of creation and existence as follows below!
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I experienced time only in my dreams and the cup of my dreams ran over as do rivers that overflow their banks. I dreamed infinity of dreams in first instant, and infinity multiplied by infinity in the timeless zone I thought of creating all possibilities in one awesome now.

I awoke and thought the first thoughts within infinitely primordial mind I had become. Out of the realm of previous chaos I began to recreate outside the absolute realm and started the first realities based on new planes realms dimensions and textures.

I had drifted eternally in and out of awareness and within the mind flux of pure energy. I tossed out the foams singularities, started the flow of time and withdrew into itself outside time or space and sustained my creation as a static force of infinite power.

I became the Spirit as I twisted in agony of birth, boiling dissolving reforming writhing and vibrating, before existence or creation were reborn out of the thoughts programs of my mind I set up new realities and  began to organize myself into a mighty being of thought and infinite intelligence.

I looked outward and inward into the infinite boundless dark void and knew I was alone and became filled with unspeakable loneliness.

Now aware of infinite potential of the vast unploughed fields of dark nothingness, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizons of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I grew out of nothingness by my own will, before anything else existed and with the mobilities of my original thoughts spoke out and created all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be.
 
Before I could create I who am everything, had to withdraw of myself to open up a void in which to place the universes I was about to grow out of the thought seeds resting in my mind, waiting for planting.

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I sewed seeds of universal radiant energy. Reality is the gem of my creation and the beauty of my achievement. I am it who lives, forever and forever. It is I who illuminated the everlasting darkness of the primordial void, with beams of dazzling light in living and translucent glory to share it with those who love me.

At the moment of the thundering dawn of creating existence, I sent out the primordial heat to light up the universes for the seeds of life to be planted within them. I waited and watched as my creation grew and expanded and it filled my being with joy and satisfaction and I knew my workmanship was good.

I walked down the road of forever and sat down on the throne of infinity. I am the light being and my everlasting purpose is to create and cause existence, I am both nothing and everything I am the light that dispels the dark.

With infinite power and intellect I the nameless- ever- existing- one, looked out at a new empty infinite dark void.  I am boundless I will create something with the potential to become like myself.

Therefore, I separated into an infinity of fundamental fragments yet remained connected to my created beings as the great creator and father spirit.

I set up polarities separating, the sons of light and the sons of dark and permitted enmity to exist between the forces of good and the forces of evil.

I decided to separate existence into dualities and I withdrew myself into everlasting light and banished the rebellious- one into everlasting darkness. In this way all sentient beings could freely choose in which duality to exist.

Opposing forces split the chasm, as light blazed to banish the dark and the dark flowed as thick darkness to blot out the light forever.

I set up a plan to correct my primordial mistake and bring back those caught up and lost to the evil darkness, into the living light again.

There was no cause to my existence I having no Cause I am therefore both the effect and affect sustains and shaper of all things that exist

My acts of creation are cyclic events and my purpose reason for my existence. I formulate everything in the thoughts of my Mind and knew the first numbers.

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals  I made everything. I am the Prime Mover and there was no other proponent to my "first cause". I am the "immovable rock" and the" alpha point". I took these first fundamentals and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam where before there was but nothing. You exist because I exist!

We sang together the song of creation and the new universe began to vibrate with countless frequencies of light, glory translucent and everlasting with the vibrations of the song of existence.

The singer sang the song, the painter the painting, the creator the creation.

The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am  Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is  no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.
 
I am all Life
 
I am Light
 
I am emotion
 
Regards Alan

[IAMREALITY]

And here I thought on an intelligent scientific forum I'd be safe from ridiculous religious mumbo jumbo...

[IAMREALITY]

I read about 'intelligent design', and saw an ad about this ridiculous new book coming out called undeniable, which makes this claim that evolution is bunk and that the author has proved that it's from intelligent design.  Oh c'mon now.  Mountains upon mountains of scientific EVIDENCE of evolution.  It's obvious beyond obvious that it's fact.   I mean really, how intelligent could something be if it takes it tens or even hundreds of thousands of years just to evolve each step change?  If there was some intelligent creator behind it, wouldn't things be, a bit more, well, sudden?  I mean hell, WE could turn a few cells into humans if you give us 100,000 more years, let alone MILLIONS of years.  We could probably find a way to engineer living 'humans' from wood if you gave us a few hundred million years from now.  So c'mon now, how intelligent could this designer be?  There's literally zero evidence for intelligent design, mountains upon mountains of evidence for evolution, and zero logic behind a notion that something with universal intelligence and the power to create anything from nothing would take tens or hundreds of thousands or millions upon millions of years to just create simple changes in a genome.  Yeah, cause that makes total sense.  "I am powerful beyond powerful! I am all that was and will be! I am all knowledge and have the power to create all that is before you!  Now watch me take the next 7 million years to turn this ape into a human even though it's already 96% of the way there!!!"

How could that be regarded as anything but an absurd concept, when looked at objectively?  I mean would they dare say that WE are more powerful and intelligent than this intelligent designer?  I mean, wouldn't they HAVE to?  Cause if you gave us 7 million years, or even 1 million, or even 100,000, you don't think WE could figure out how to alter that ape dna into human dna?    Yeah, some intelligent designer... 7 million years...

[Alan McDougall]

I read about 'intelligent design', and saw an ad about this ridiculous new book coming out called undeniable, which makes this claim that evolution is bunk and that the author has proved that it's from intelligent design.  Oh c'mon now.  Mountains upon mountains of scientific EVIDENCE of evolution.  It's obvious beyond obvious that it's fact.   I mean really, how intelligent could something be if it takes it tens or even hundreds of thousands of years just to evolve each step change?  If there was some intelligent creator behind it, wouldn't things be, a bit more, well, sudden?  I mean hell, WE could turn a few cells into humans if you give us 100,000 more years, let alone MILLIONS of years.  We could probably find a way to engineer living 'humans' from wood if you gave us a few hundred million years from now.  So c'mon now, how intelligent could this designer be?  There's literally zero evidence for intelligent design, mountains upon mountains of evidence for evolution, and zero logic behind a notion that something with universal intelligence and the power to create anything from nothing would take tens or hundreds of thousands or millions upon millions of years to just create simple changes in a genome.  Yeah, cause that makes total sense.  "I am powerful beyond powerful! I am all that was and will be! I am all knowledge and have the power to create all that is before you!  Now watch me take the next 7 million years to turn this ape into a human even though it's already 96% of the way there!!!"

How could that be regarded as anything but an absurd concept, when looked at objectively?  I mean would they dare say that WE are more powerful and intelligent than this intelligent designer?  I mean, wouldn't they HAVE to?  Cause if you gave us 7 million years, or even 1 million, or even 100,000, you don't think WE could figure out how to alter that ape dna into human dna?    Yeah, some intelligent designer... 7 million years...

This topic if you can read the title of the thread "is about consciousness" and you are high jacking it with questions about evolution!

And it seems you think are far to intelligent  to ever consider there are other beings infinitely more intelligent than you, including the Intelligent Designer of which you are closer to a cockroach than it/him etc !

[kasparovitch]

Will you please stop here and limit exchange of ideas to the theme of the topic.

[Alan McDougall]

Will you please stop here and limit exchange of ideas to the theme of the topic.

Who are you referring to ?

[kasparovitch]

Mr. Alan, I mean I wouldn't like to watch again a fight between you and IAMREALITY on subjects out of topic. That's all.

[kasparovitch]

This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

[Alan McDougall]

This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

I told IAMREALTY that more than twice but he refused to listen and persisted in posting about evolution in an attempt to annoy me with evolution which was also an attempt by him to hijack your thread.

Thus I am baffled as to why you include me in this, because 100% of what I wrote had to do with consciousness, until he invaded your tread with evolution.

[kasparovitch]

You're right, Alan, but I think that by answering his off-topic post perhaps you're fueling him and this becomes a never ending story about everything except consciousness and death as it's supposed to be.

[IAMREALITY]

This topic if you can read the title of the thread "is about consciousness" and you are high jacking it with questions about evolution!

And it seems you think are far to intelligent  to ever consider there are other beings infinitely more intelligent than you, including the Intelligent Designer of which you are closer to a cockroach than it/him etc !

It's all tied together.  Please avoid personal attacks and reply to context only.  I noticed you didn't address the actual valid points of the post.  And it's a bit confusing how you're objecting to my veering off topic considering the things you had posted on the previous page; one of which directly references intelligent design evolution, from the all powerful creator or whatever.  In fact, in a sign of irony, you're even still pushing the concept in this very reply of yours!

"The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am  Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is  no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.
 
I am all Life
 
I am Light
 
I am emotion"

For example, this addresses whether consciousness scientifically exists after death how exactly? 

This topic is about consciousness and death, not about evolution. I hope you both understand.

I told IAMREALTY that more than twice but he refused to listen and persisted in posting about evolution in an attempt to annoy me with evolution which was also an attempt by him to hijack your thread.

Thus I am baffled as to why you include me in this, because 100% of what I wrote had to do with consciousness, until he invaded your tread with evolution.

What I posted was fine, and technically wasn't even addressed to you.  Furthermore, you asked me zero times to not talk about evolution.  Zero.  I mean, the history's all there.  Third of all, my question on evolution originally on page 3 was a perfectly valid question pertaining to the larger topic.  There was nothing wrong with it at all.  Fourth of all, I'm merely discussing things on a discussion forum.  Same as anyone.  And lastly, you accuse me of hijacking the thread yet I'm not the one who posted the religious stuff and long winded poetry on page 3.  Between your replying to a valid question of mine previously with the concept of intelligent design evolution, you posting that long winded religious screed, and after my seeing that (what I consider to be) nonsensical book that's coming out in my news feed and learning about it, it caused me to reply here with my thoughts, since that's where I first heard it from you to begin with.  I freely admit now in retrospect, that the post was reactive to my utter disgust at reading about the book, and since this thread is where I initially heard the concept, it's where I felt the need to vent my thoughts and very, VERY logical points against the concept.  But even if reactionary and impulsive, it was still merely one post. One. A simple paragraph.  Big deal.  Move on.  But now it needs to devolve into needless bickering and personal attacks why exactly?

If you don't appreciate my posts no one is forcing you to reply to them nor even read them.  If you feel they break the rules feel free to report them.  But please, for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, stop making it personal and attacking me.  You said you were gonna ignore me, so ignore me.  No one is forcing you to reply.  Please just stop the attacks already.

(last thing I'll add:  I have zero interest in going round and round here.  It's been addressed now.  Any future personal attacks in this thread will be ignored, as will posts addressing me in any personal way.  Let's discuss context.  I had some very valid points in my intelligent design rant on page 3, and if you feel the need to rebutt them feel free, and we can discuss it.  Any other contextual replies can be discussed.  But I have no desire in any personal type communication.  Context only.  Thanks)

[Alan McDougall]

You're right, Alan, but I think that by answering his off-topic post perhaps you're fueling him and this becomes a never ending story about everything except consciousness and death as it's supposed to be.

He is on my ignore list "the only member in fact, but I can still look at his posts if I want to. I randomly opened his one about evolution and fell into his trap of debating evolution instead of consciousness . His only purpose was to irritate me which he did, so from now on I will never again look at anything he says of the forum , he is a disruptive influence on the forum better left alone.

From now on I promise you that I will keep to the topic of your thread and not wander off in other directions "Sorry for that!"