0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Quote from: timeyLight, when looked at as having no mass, is then not affected by gravitation, and gravity potential energy is not applicable.But light does have mass via its momentum. What it doesn't have is rest mass, aka proper mass. Since light has momentum and anything that has momentum has, by definition, relativistic mass. It's the relativistic mass that makes it respond to gravity. This is all explained by Feynman in his "Lectures."

Light, when looked at as having no mass, is then not affected by gravitation, and gravity potential energy is not applicable.

Happy to pass the baton, Pete, but beware - this is a muddy marathon, not a sprint on a marked track!

In defence of my proposition... If you think of a clock running faster in elevation to earth at a certain distance, and then (hypothetically) transpose this scenario to the black hole, it becomes a logical conclusion that the gravity potential that the clock experiences at elevation to the black hole is greater than the gravity potential that the clock elevated from the earth is experiencing. Thus suggesting that the possibility exists that a black holes rate of time 'can' be greater than that of the rate of time on earth...

The gravity potential at the centre of the earth and at the centre of a black hole should both be equal and set at 0, shouldn't they? It is only the mass between the object affected and the centre of the sphere that exerts force...

But the important thing about gravitational blue shift and time dilatation is that they don't depend on the mass of the clock or light source, only the local gravitational field.

And... isn't this exactly the point that introduces infinities to the mathematics?

And isn't it the fact of relativity resulting in infinities that renders the theory, despite its successes, unable to fully describe the universe that we observe?

In the case of mass, all mass is subject to gravity potential,

and all atoms that are elevated experience an increase in their frequency,

And all spectra of emitted light will experience frequency shift in the gravitational field, and this phenomenon of the shift of frequency in light has got nothing to do with the circumstance of the lights source...

Meantime... we observe, of an atomic clock, a change in frequency in a higher gravity potential. Just to double check, are you in agreement that the electrons of the electron cloud of the atom suffer a change in frequency?

The energy gap E is fixed by the spin-spin interaction and is the same everywhere in the universe.

If there is more energy then time will run faster.

Quote from: alancalverd on 08/06/2016 20:01:32The energy gap E is fixed by the spin-spin interaction and is the same everywhere in the universe. How do you know this? And what if it were not?

Quote from: timey on 08/06/2016 21:53:32 If there is more energy then time will run faster. I have no idea what this means, but perhaps you can explain with a thought experiment and its predicted result?QuoteQuote from: alancalverd on 08/06/2016 20:01:32The energy gap E is fixed by the spin-spin interaction and is the same everywhere in the universe. How do you know this? And what if it were not?because the atom is too stupid to know where it is in relation to an observer. And all the experiments we do, seem to confirm the relativistic model whenever we do know the relative positions of the atom and the observer in a gravitational field. If it were not so, we'd get a different answer.

Well since 2GM/c^{2} equals the radius of an event horizon Alan's equation can be reformulated as,f_{r}= f_{e}√{(1-r_{s}/(R+h))/(1 - r_{s}/R)}Note to be valid R > r_{s}.

Relate this to Hubble's law, and we can look at a non expanding universe.

So... now the observer knows for a 'fact' that this difference in frequency, and therefore energy experienced by the elevated clock, relative to the clock below it, is a 'real' occurrence, and not observer dependent...