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Who "you"? I'm not confused or attempting to confuse anyone else. Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer.QuoteAre you saying that the calculation for the frequency shift of a clock is matching the frequency shift of blue shifted light? It is so.

Are you saying that the calculation for the frequency shift of a clock is matching the frequency shift of blue shifted light?

Quote: "Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer." Unquote:...apart from light. Take your mossbauer source at ground level and point the 'emitted' photon outbound into the higher gravity potential and it's frequency will decrease...

Quote from: jeffreyH on 17/08/2016 13:19:40You said "Lights wavelength is observed to contract when it travels towards a gravity field." The gravitational field extends to infinity so objects are never travelling towards it. They are always inside an undetermined number of gravitational fields. In order to explain to you your errors I would have to spend time correcting your misuse of language. I have better things to do with my time.Actually I have been using slightly wonky terminology on purpose, because when I use the correct terminology I cannot seem to break through the pre-conditioned GR mentality of the reader.

You said "Lights wavelength is observed to contract when it travels towards a gravity field." The gravitational field extends to infinity so objects are never travelling towards it. They are always inside an undetermined number of gravitational fields. In order to explain to you your errors I would have to spend time correcting your misuse of language. I have better things to do with my time.

Yes a gravity field will extend to a lesser gravity field, and to a greater gravity field. What of it?Light's wavelength gets shorter in the greater gravity field. 'contracting'...Light's wavelength gets longer in the lesser gravity field. 'dilating'... What's the problem?As to you wasting your time, that would depend on what you are trying to accomplish... It would seem to me that you are grasping for justification as to your own prejudice against the notion of someone from my lacking in formal education having the temerity to challenge the status quo, rather than actually trying to understand the idea that I'm proposing.

QuoteQuote: "Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer." Unquote:...apart from light. Take your mossbauer source at ground level and point the 'emitted' photon outbound into the higher gravity potential and it's frequency will decrease....... as observed by an observer at the higher potential. Exactly the same phenomenon, whether it is a clock or a radionuclide. Not "apart from light", but "exactly as with light".You have read the evidence. Indeed you have led me to it. Why not accept it?

Quote from: alancalverd on 17/08/2016 17:43:55QuoteQuote: "Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer." Unquote:...apart from light. Take your mossbauer source at ground level and point the 'emitted' photon outbound into the higher gravity potential and it's frequency will decrease....... as observed by an observer at the higher potential. Exactly the same phenomenon, whether it is a clock or a radionuclide. Not "apart from light", but "exactly as with light".You have read the evidence. Indeed you have led me to it. Why not accept it?I do accept it. I'm completely pointing it out to you, and I have led you to it for a purpose.Yes the frequency of the photon emitted at ground level will be lower as seen from the position it has arrived at in the higher gravity potential. The light can only be seen by an observer at that position when it arrives there...same as blue shifted light.So Alan - can we now be in agreement that an emitted photons frequency will decrease when travelling into the higher gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the lower gravity potential......and in the opposing direction will increase in frequency travelling into the lower gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the higher gravity potential......and that an atomic clock, (and anything of mass), will be increased in energy, and therefore frequency of its energy transitions in the higher gravity potential, relative to a clock placed in the lower gravity potential......and that in the opposing direction a clocks frequency will decrease in the lower gravity potential relative to a clock placed in the higher gravity potential...And - that these frequency changes observed of light, and observed of the clock, are occurring in opposing directions in the gravity field?

Quote from: timey on 17/08/2016 20:42:46Quote from: alancalverd on 17/08/2016 17:43:55QuoteQuote: "Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer." Unquote:...apart from light. Take your mossbauer source at ground level and point the 'emitted' photon outbound into the higher gravity potential and it's frequency will decrease....... as observed by an observer at the higher potential. Exactly the same phenomenon, whether it is a clock or a radionuclide. Not "apart from light", but "exactly as with light".You have read the evidence. Indeed you have led me to it. Why not accept it?I do accept it. I'm completely pointing it out to you, and I have led you to it for a purpose.Yes the frequency of the photon emitted at ground level will be lower as seen from the position it has arrived at in the higher gravity potential. The light can only be seen by an observer at that position when it arrives there...same as blue shifted light.So Alan - can we now be in agreement that an emitted photons frequency will decrease when travelling into the higher gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the lower gravity potential......and in the opposing direction will increase in frequency travelling into the lower gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the higher gravity potential......and that an atomic clock, (and anything of mass), will be increased in energy, and therefore frequency of its energy transitions in the higher gravity potential, relative to a clock placed in the lower gravity potential......and that in the opposing direction a clocks frequency will decrease in the lower gravity potential relative to a clock placed in the higher gravity potential...And - that these frequency changes observed of light, and observed of the clock, are occurring in opposing directions in the gravity field?That is like comparing apples with orangutans. Does the rate of a clock have kinetic energy?

Quote from: jeffreyH on 17/08/2016 22:00:44Quote from: timey on 17/08/2016 20:42:46Quote from: alancalverd on 17/08/2016 17:43:55QuoteQuote: "Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer." Unquote:...apart from light. Take your mossbauer source at ground level and point the 'emitted' photon outbound into the higher gravity potential and it's frequency will decrease....... as observed by an observer at the higher potential. Exactly the same phenomenon, whether it is a clock or a radionuclide. Not "apart from light", but "exactly as with light".You have read the evidence. Indeed you have led me to it. Why not accept it?I do accept it. I'm completely pointing it out to you, and I have led you to it for a purpose.Yes the frequency of the photon emitted at ground level will be lower as seen from the position it has arrived at in the higher gravity potential. The light can only be seen by an observer at that position when it arrives there...same as blue shifted light.So Alan - can we now be in agreement that an emitted photons frequency will decrease when travelling into the higher gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the lower gravity potential......and in the opposing direction will increase in frequency travelling into the lower gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the higher gravity potential......and that an atomic clock, (and anything of mass), will be increased in energy, and therefore frequency of its energy transitions in the higher gravity potential, relative to a clock placed in the lower gravity potential......and that in the opposing direction a clocks frequency will decrease in the lower gravity potential relative to a clock placed in the higher gravity potential...And - that these frequency changes observed of light, and observed of the clock, are occurring in opposing directions in the gravity field?That is like comparing apples with orangutans. Does the rate of a clock have kinetic energy?Ah, kinetic energy!0.5mv^2...and light has no mass. But even if you give it mass, if you then take the concept of using the addition of kinetic energy to calculate frequency for light and apply it to mass, a clock that is stationary with respect to an observer is observed at a certsin frequency of energy transitions. Zoom the clock off at speed in a uniform gravity field, (uniform for simplicity), and adding kinetic energy will increase the clocks frequency.A clock placed in motion relative to another stationary clock is observed to have a decreased frequency relative to the stationary clock, not an increased frequency....so calculating added kinetic energy for explanation of observations of light doesn't work when applied to mass.

Quote from: timey on 17/08/2016 22:29:25Quote from: jeffreyH on 17/08/2016 22:00:44Quote from: timey on 17/08/2016 20:42:46Quote from: alancalverd on 17/08/2016 17:43:55QuoteQuote: "Any oscillator at a higher gravitational potential than the observer appears to be running faster that it would at the same GP as the observer." Unquote:...apart from light. Take your mossbauer source at ground level and point the 'emitted' photon outbound into the higher gravity potential and it's frequency will decrease....... as observed by an observer at the higher potential. Exactly the same phenomenon, whether it is a clock or a radionuclide. Not "apart from light", but "exactly as with light".You have read the evidence. Indeed you have led me to it. Why not accept it?I do accept it. I'm completely pointing it out to you, and I have led you to it for a purpose.Yes the frequency of the photon emitted at ground level will be lower as seen from the position it has arrived at in the higher gravity potential. The light can only be seen by an observer at that position when it arrives there...same as blue shifted light.So Alan - can we now be in agreement that an emitted photons frequency will decrease when travelling into the higher gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the lower gravity potential......and in the opposing direction will increase in frequency travelling into the lower gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the higher gravity potential......and that an atomic clock, (and anything of mass), will be increased in energy, and therefore frequency of its energy transitions in the higher gravity potential, relative to a clock placed in the lower gravity potential......and that in the opposing direction a clocks frequency will decrease in the lower gravity potential relative to a clock placed in the higher gravity potential...And - that these frequency changes observed of light, and observed of the clock, are occurring in opposing directions in the gravity field?That is like comparing apples with orangutans. Does the rate of a clock have kinetic energy?Ah, kinetic energy!0.5mv^2...and light has no mass. But even if you give it mass, if you then take the concept of using the addition of kinetic energy to calculate frequency for light and apply it to mass, a clock that is stationary with respect to an observer is observed at a certsin frequency of energy transitions. Zoom the clock off at speed in a uniform gravity field, (uniform for simplicity), and adding kinetic energy will increase the clocks frequency.A clock placed in motion relative to another stationary clock is observed to have a decreased frequency relative to the stationary clock, not an increased frequency....so calculating added kinetic energy for explanation of observations of light doesn't work when applied to mass.For a start the photon can't have rest mass. You also certainly need to study the use of language as applicable to physics. That about sums it up.

So Alan - can we now be in agreement that an emitted photons frequency will decrease when travelling into the higher gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the lower gravity potential......and in the opposing direction will increase in frequency travelling into the lower gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the higher gravity potential......and that an atomic clock, (and anything of mass), will be increased in energy, and therefore frequency of its energy transitions in the higher gravity potential, relative to a clock placed in the lower gravity potential......and that in the opposing direction a clocks frequency will decrease in the lower gravity potential relative to a clock placed in the higher gravity potential...And - that these frequency changes observed of light, and observed of the clock, are occurring in opposing directions in the gravity field?

QuoteSo Alan - can we now be in agreement that an emitted photons frequency will decrease when travelling into the higher gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the lower gravity potential......and in the opposing direction will increase in frequency travelling into the lower gravity potential relative to the frequency it had in the higher gravity potential......and that an atomic clock, (and anything of mass), will be increased in energy, and therefore frequency of its energy transitions in the higher gravity potential, relative to a clock placed in the lower gravity potential......and that in the opposing direction a clocks frequency will decrease in the lower gravity potential relative to a clock placed in the higher gravity potential...And - that these frequency changes observed of light, and observed of the clock, are occurring in opposing directions in the gravity field?No. All we can see is that the frequency of a clock, photon, or anything else, appears higher when observed from a lower gravitational potential. All we know is that the same relativistic equation predicts both. Therefore the minimum assumption is that the same mechanism determines all observations. If you want to postulate that different mechanisms underlie the frequency shift for different sources, you will be left with the remarkable conclusion that an infinite number of independent equations, describing the different effects of a nonexistent* gravitational field on every cyclic event in the universe, all produce the same result. The probablity of this being true is very close to zero. *remember that the field in deep space is zero. Most of the discussion so far, and indeed most of the experimental results, deal with an observer in the rather rare phenomenon of a planetary gravitational field.

Where light is concerned we can only observe the light when it has reached our eyes.

A clocks change in frequency is observed in the 'other' reference frame.

Who said the clock's frequency changes? All we know is that it appears to vary depending on the position of the observer in the gravitational field, same as the apparent frequency of the photon. The only "absolute" is the hypothetical clock in deep space where the gravitational potential is zero. We can them make observations from the surface of different planets with different local potentials, and see the effect. But the clock frequency can't have changed because we haven't moved it. QuoteWhere light is concerned we can only observe the light when it has reached our eyes. True. And how do we observe the clock? QuoteA clocks change in frequency is observed in the 'other' reference frame. What other? I'm standing at the bottom of the Harvard tower, looking at a mossbauer source and a cesium clock at the top of the tower. In both cases I'm measuring the time beween the peaks of an electrical field, either that of a single photon or the microwave standard. Both appear blue shifted, by the same fraction.

NIST say that they have OBSERVED change in frequency in clocks between gravity potentials of 1 metre elevation. They state the effect as a real and physical effect.