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An education in physics is an absolute prerequisite. Including the required mathematics. Smolin could have said the next Nobel prize in physics will go to a goose. That doesn't mean it will happen. It may however make him a few extra quid on his book sales from the curious minded.

Quote from: timey on 08/07/2016 05:52:49A clock's atomic electron cloud energy transition is subject to gravity potential. It's frequency is 'increased' when placed 'in the weaker' gravity field. Light has a reduced frequency 'in the weaker' gravity field, no matter if it is redshifted away from a body of mass or blue-shifted towards a body of mass. You really need to sort this out in your head. An observer stationed at the clock or travelling with the photon sees no change.The frequency of a clock is increased as seen by an observer at a lower gravitational potential. Fact. The frequency of a photon is increased as seen by an observer at a lower gravitational potential. Fact. Same phenomenon, same explanation. Please don't waste your life trying to model or explain something that manifestly doesn't happen. Enjoy the sunshine!

A clock's atomic electron cloud energy transition is subject to gravity potential. It's frequency is 'increased' when placed 'in the weaker' gravity field. Light has a reduced frequency 'in the weaker' gravity field, no matter if it is redshifted away from a body of mass or blue-shifted towards a body of mass.

If you look at a diagram depiction of light redshifted away from earth, and a diagram of light blue shifted towards earth, the light will always have a lower frequency in the weaker gravity field. Fact?

If you look at a diagram depiction of the difference in time between clocks in the gravitational field, the clocks frequency of electron cloud energy transition will always be greater in the weaker gravity field. Fact?

lLet's cut out the extraneous and confusing wordsQuote from: timey on 08/07/2016 17:52:22If you look at a diagram depiction of light redshifted away from earth, and a diagram of light blue shifted towards earth, the light will always have a lower frequency in the weaker gravity field. Fact? As seen by an observer in the weaker field, yes.Quote If you look at a diagram depiction of the difference in time between clocks in the gravitational field, the clocks frequency of electron cloud energy transition will always be greater in the weaker gravity field. Fact? As seen by an observer in the stronger field, yes.Same phenomenon, same result. Source (ANY source) in weaker field than the observer, observer sees a blue shift/higher frequency than his local source.Source (ANY source) in stronger field than the observer, observer sees a red shift/lower frequency than his local source. Whether the source is a clock, a Mossbauer photon, or the rate of reproduction of rabbits, since the experimental results are absolutely consistent with each other and with conventional GR theory, what are you trying to demonstrate? And since the red shift equations are solvable on a pocket calculator, what mathematical problem do you have? You don't even need to understand the meaning of "square root" - just press the √ key!

Now take the observer out of the picture Alan for even greater simplicity

... Both the light and the clock remain gravitationally shifted by the gravity field.

In a gravity field light has a lower frequency in the weaker field.

In a gravity field, a clock has a higher frequency in the weaker field.

Quote from: timey on 09/07/2016 08:30:09Now take the observer out of the picture Alan for even greater simplicity You can't. No observer = no observation. Quote... Both the light and the clock remain gravitationally shifted by the gravity field. shifted relative to what? As soon as you introduce a comparative, you are implying an observer. Indeed two observers. The answer is in the question: relativity.QuoteIn a gravity field light has a lower frequency in the weaker field. This statement is meaningless, but if you add an observer in the weaker field, you will also see that it is exactly the same asQuoteIn a gravity field, a clock has a higher frequency in the weaker field. as seen by an observer in the stronger field.Here's what we see in the Pound-Rebka experiment and GPS satellite clocksweak field strong field report(above ground) (ground level)photon source ----------------> observer blue shift compared with ground level detector clock -------------------> observer faster compared with ground level clockNo difference. Same equations apply, and give the same answer. Therefore same phenomenon, hence not associated with the mass of the clock or the quantum phenomena that generate the photon or the clock pulse.

When Einstein predicted that clocks would run faster at elevation

It is indeed entirely possible to state that the phenomenon of frequency shift for the clock, and that the phenomenon of frequency shift for the light are occurring as a direct result of the changes in the gravitational field, and are calculable as such.

My theory of inverted time, and the resulting consequence being a cyclic universe, does give a full explanation of the Big Bang, Inflation period, Big Crunch, black holes, and does so without introducing any unobserved phenomenon.

Quote from: timey on 09/07/2016 10:21:48When Einstein predicted that clocks would run faster at elevationfaster than what? The use of a comparative adjective always implies an observer.But I'm pleased to see that you seem to be accepting that there is no phenomenological difference between clocks and photons. QuoteIt is indeed entirely possible to state that the phenomenon of frequency shift for the clock, and that the phenomenon of frequency shift for the light are occurring as a direct result of the changes in the gravitational field, and are calculable as such. I think most of us have believed this since about 1920. QuoteMy theory of inverted time, and the resulting consequence being a cyclic universe, does give a full explanation of the Big Bang, Inflation period, Big Crunch, black holes, and does so without introducing any unobserved phenomenon. So please let us have the theory in simple words. Never mind the maths or even physics. GR says "clocks at a higher gravitational potential appear (to an observer on the ground) to run faster than those on the ground, so gravity alters time". Can you put your theory into a similar sentence?

No there is no difference between the gravitational shift of the clock and the gravitational shift of light other than the observed changes in frequency occurring in opposing directions within the gravity field,

Quote from: timey on 09/07/2016 11:34:49No there is no difference between the gravitational shift of the clock and the gravitational shift of light other than the observed changes in frequency occurring in opposing directions within the gravity field, NO NO NO NO for the umpteenth time! The changes are EXACTLY THE SAME, as all your references have stated.Whatever the source, its frequency appears to increase when observed from a lower gravitational potential. If you start with an incorrect premise, you will end up in all sorts of trouble. Repeating an obvious and illogical untruth is politics or religion, not physics, and I woldn't want to accuse you of being a politican or a priest. Your confusion may arise from the fact that stronger local field = lower potential, but I explained that several months ago and it is in all your beloved textbooks.

One point about energy. If we are elevated in a gravitational field we see redshift of light. This is a reduction of kinetic energy. If we see projectile launched and allowed to travel upwards unaided we see it gradually slow to a stop before falling back down. This too is a reduction in kinetic energy.

A clocks frequency as seen from the 'lower' gravity potential is ***increased***.Lights frequency as seen from the 'lower' gravity potential is ***decreased***.

Here's what we see in the Pound-Rebka experiment and GPS satellite clocksweak field strong field observation(above ground) (ground level)photon source ----------------> observer blue shift compared with ground level detector clock -------------------> observer faster compared with ground level clockNo difference. Same equations apply, and give the same answer. Therefore same phenomenon, hence not associated with the mass of the clock or the quantum phenomena that generate the photon or the clock pulse.

Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/07/2016 10:55:29One point about energy. If we are elevated in a gravitational field we see redshift of light. This is a reduction of kinetic energy. If we see projectile launched and allowed to travel upwards unaided we see it gradually slow to a stop before falling back down. This too is a reduction in kinetic energy.Ok - but if you put a previously stationary clock on that rocket and add the resulting kinetic energy to the clock, the clock will have a higher frequency than it would at same position of elevation if it were held stationary there.This is in direct contradiction to observation. A clock in motion relative to a stationary clock will experience a reduced frequency and a slowing of its time.

Ok - but if you put a previously stationary clock on that rocket and add the resulting kinetic energy to the clock, the clock will have a higher frequency than it would at same position of elevation if it were held stationary there.This is in direct contradiction to observation. A clock in motion relative to a stationary clock will experience a reduced frequency and a slowing of its time.

Quote from: timey on 09/07/2016 12:11:31Ok - but if you put a previously stationary clock on that rocket and add the resulting kinetic energy to the clock, the clock will have a higher frequency than it would at same position of elevation if it were held stationary there.This is in direct contradiction to observation. A clock in motion relative to a stationary clock will experience a reduced frequency and a slowing of its time.Not sure how you can state "This is in direct contradiction to observation." when you are describing an observation! Do not confuse relative velocity shift with relative gravitational potential shift. Everyone else knows the difference betwen stationary, moving and accelerating, and the meaning of gravitational field gradient. And the moving clock does not "experience" anything because the observer is moving with it. It's all about "relativity"!

Quote from: timey on 09/07/2016 12:11:31Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/07/2016 10:55:29One point about energy. If we are elevated in a gravitational field we see redshift of light. This is a reduction of kinetic energy. If we see projectile launched and allowed to travel upwards unaided we see it gradually slow to a stop before falling back down. This too is a reduction in kinetic energy.Ok - but if you put a previously stationary clock on that rocket and add the resulting kinetic energy to the clock, the clock will have a higher frequency than it would at same position of elevation if it were held stationary there.This is in direct contradiction to observation. A clock in motion relative to a stationary clock will experience a reduced frequency and a slowing of its time.The object is a projectile allowed to travel without an external input of force. It is not a rocket. The only consideration necessary is the count of the clock when compared to the count of another clock at a different position in the gravitational well. The clocks at exactly the same potential will have the same count. Starting from this premise you then need to appreciate what happens at higher and lower potential when viewed from this clocks position. What is the difference in the 'tick rate' of other clocks. Forget considerations of frequency while podering this.

Yes - relativity... my model is based on it, your point being?

Quote from: timey on 09/07/2016 21:29:10 Yes - relativity... my model is based on it, your point being?...that you keep inisisting that gravitational blue shift works in different senses for photons and clocks. There is little point in trying to construct a physical model for something that is not true.

Note:light = lower frequency .......... as seen from lower gravity potentialNote:Clock = higher frequency.............as seen from the lower gravity potential)Spot the difference?

Blue shifted light is light travelling towards a gravity field. The frequency of the light increases the closer it gets to the body of mass.