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There is no mass involved in any of the processes mentioned, except the CO2 laser.

But... An Fe57 doesn't just spontaneously emit a gamma ray. (does it?).

To cause an Fe57 to emit a gamma ray, the Fe57 is subject to an increase of energy applied by an external mechanism.

The cesium atomic clock also does not spontaneously emit a photon. The energy kick in this case is being provided by microwave. Both the producing factor of a microwave and the internal process involving component particles of the cesium atom have mass.

Quote from: timey on 11/08/2016 13:24:47But... An Fe57 doesn't just spontaneously emit a gamma ray. (does it?). yes it does QuoteTo cause an Fe57 to emit a gamma ray, the Fe57 is subject to an increase of energy applied by an external mechanism. No. It is naturally radioactive. The "mossbauer" decay process is a two-stage gamma emission with no mass change. QuoteThe cesium atomic clock also does not spontaneously emit a photon. The energy kick in this case is being provided by microwave. Both the producing factor of a microwave and the internal process involving component particles of the cesium atom have mass. The resonance is a spin-spin interaction whose energy is not mass-dependentBut the point is, if clocks with different masses or none at all are raised to a new gravitational potential, what does your proposed mechanism do to the observed frequency? The standard GR equation, whcih does not involve the mass of the clock, gives the correct answer. Can yours do better?

I am not working on the basis that an increase in potential energy will increase mass size, only that it will increase frequency.

But to answer your question, the standard GR equation for GR time dilation already takes into account the proposed inverted gravitational time dilation in that it is using g.

QuoteI am not working on the basis that an increase in potential energy will increase mass size, only that it will increase frequency. which is exactly what GR predicts, and we find in practice.The "lattice thingy" is all about momentum. This doesn't change with gravitational potential.gluons are not gravitonsQuoteBut to answer your question, the standard GR equation for GR time dilation already takes into account the proposed inverted gravitational time dilation in that it is using g. Hmm. The frequency shift equation is fr/fe = sqrt{(1-2GM/(R+h)c^2)/(1-2GM/Rc^2)} where fr and fe are the received and emitted frequencies. No mention of g or the mass of the source that I can see.

What on earth is mass size? M is the mass of the large attractor (the earth). m does not feature in the equation, which applies to all sources regardless of their mass (as long as it does not significantly distort the gravitational field of M) and thus includes sources where m = 0.

Potential energy is mgh.I stated the gravitational blue shift equation earlier as the frequency ratio. Obviously the energy ratio is the same since E = hf.

...and are you saying that the addition of gravity potential energy for mass is resulting in an energy that corresponds with the frequency of mass at that location? Or is it corresponding with the frequency of light at that location?

Alas, I can't do italics on this site any longer, so things get confused by the two different conventional uses of h, but yes, one is height above the surface of a large planet, and one is Planck's constant - as is obvious from dimensional analysis of the equations. Quote...and are you saying that the addition of gravity potential energy for mass is resulting in an energy that corresponds with the frequency of mass at that location? Or is it corresponding with the frequency of light at that location?Neither. The deBroglie frequency is an unobservable mathematical construct that approximates to quantum behavior. Variation in gravitational potential will vary both the potential energy of a massive object relative to the observer, and the observed frequency of a photon or a clock.

Quote from: alancalverd on 13/08/2016 09:48:16Alas, I can't do italics on this site any longer, so things get confused by the two different conventional uses of h, but yes, one is height above the surface of a large planet, and one is Planck's constant - as is obvious from dimensional analysis of the equations. Quote...and are you saying that the addition of gravity potential energy for mass is resulting in an energy that corresponds with the frequency of mass at that location? Or is it corresponding with the frequency of light at that location?Neither. The deBroglie frequency is an unobservable mathematical construct that approximates to quantum behavior. Variation in gravitational potential will vary both the potential energy of a massive object relative to the observer, and the observed frequency of a photon or a clock. Just to clarify your last words. For a clock above the Earth spinning around with velocity V, the clock will slower relative to the Earth. As the clock moves faster it will slow even more. If put a clock on a tower atop a high mountain, is it correct that the clock will move slower than a clock at the base of the mountain. If we build a tower atop the mountain is it correct that the higher up the clock moves, the clock will move even slower.

But... GR time dilation has now been derived as an m near M relationship

You correctly use the term "hypothetical" deBroglie frequency. It has no bearing on any observed energy."What happens to the clock" is "nothing at all". Imagine you are sitting looking at a clock on planet Earth, whilst two of your colleagues are based on the Moon and on Jupiter. M will see your clock running slower than his, and J will see it running faster, but obviously nothing has happened to your clock. The difference is in the relative gravitational potential of the observer and source, not the structure of the clocks.QuoteBut... GR time dilation has now been derived as an m near M relationship No, m does not appear in the equation, provided m<<M (i.e. your clock is not so massive as to produce a significant local gravitational potential well).What on earth do you mean by " a closer look at h"? It's an experimental number, simply defined and easily measured by sixth-formers all over the world - and quite possibly on Planet 5 of Alpha Centauri.

Scientists have known for decades that time passes faster at higher elevations

Observers age at the rate of local time. To quote from the first sentence of your reference QuoteScientists have known for decades that time passes faster at higher elevationsAn atom or a DNA molecule has no idea of its gravitational potential since the quantity is only defined with respect to an external reference, so your atomic clock and your body clock stay in synchrony with each other but not with clocks and bodies in deep space or on another planet. The experimental problem is that the biological effect is too small (in comparison with random errrors) to be measured at any point in the solar system.The article is interesting only in that it shows how "conventional" relativity correctly predicts all the experimental results.Matters might become clearer if we start with your definition of time. For the rest of us, it is "the dimension that separates sequential events", or as Einstein put it, "time is what prevents everything from happening at once".