[jeffreyH (OP)]

Just to add to Alan's post. To have an inverse of something you first have to have that something. The inverse will undo the effect of that something. So in the case of time dilation the inverse gets us back to Galilean/Newtonian relativity. It may have been better called anti-time dilation. Just my two penneth.

[timey]

Apart from a bizarre and unrealistic view of how atomic clocks work, this seems to be entirely consistent with everyone else's observations.

Now the rest of us describe gravitational frequency shift and relative motion shift as "time dilation" phenomena, and mysteriously we get the right answer by solving conventional relativistic equations for them.

So the question is what do you mean by inverse time dilation?

My model has derived GR time dilation as being an m near M relationship, where we are measuring the standard second, (a measurement of a time period long since defined by our ancestors, whose era came well before the discovery of the atom), via means of the frequency of energy transitions, and these energy transitions are shifted in the gravitational field. (or by thermal energy changes btw).
My model states that all atoms and their particle constituents will increase in energy in the higher gravity potential.

The proposed inverted gravitational time dilation is an M in relation to open space relationship (cosmological), and also an m in relation to open space relationship. (microscopic).

The model attributes the gravity field as having energy.  The energy of the gravity field gets lesser with distance from M, and the proposed inverted gravitational time dilation of the gravity field itself will be observed as the time period of a standard second, (as measured via GR time dilation, this being our measurement of the phenomenon of time), dilating, ie: time running slower, in the weaker gravity field.

Because light, (emitted light) has no mass, and without mass (relativistic mass) therefore will not be subject to additional gravity potential energy, my model looks to the observation of lights frequency reducing in the weaker gravity field and attributes this observation to the proposed inverted gravitational time dilation of the open space gravity field.
Light is travelling at light speed, 299 ,792 458 metres per second, but the second is variable and gets longer as the gravity field gets weaker.

Jeff - I have called it inverted gravitational time dilation because it does the opposite to GR gravitational time dilation.
I have always stated clearly that the proposed inverted time dilation is an additional dimension, not the inverse of an existing dimension...

Having said that, where relativistic mass, or additional energy being calculated into mass is concerned, the proportions of how these additions work in the current maths will be replaced by the concept and maths of the proposed addition of this inverted gravitational time dilation, and the concept of an acceleration of gravity will of course be dimensionally altered.
Both of which combined, negate the need for dark matter and dark energy to dimensionally balance the books on these altered maths.

[jeffreyH (OP)]

So just to be absolutely clear you are saying that as gravitational potential increases time slows down. So that's why my GPS never gets me to the right place! And why all satellite phones run slow mo.

[timey]

So just to be absolutely clear you are saying that as gravitational potential increases time slows down. So that's why my GPS never gets me to the right place! And why all satellite phones run slow mo.

Are you having a bit of a problem reading Jeff?

No, my model states that GR gravitational time dilation is as is.  Your GPS is safe.

It proposes an additional inverted time dilation for the ***open space*** gravity field.  Your clock will be subject to GR time dilation as it is comprised of mass.

Use of g or G is already calculating inverted time dilation as an acceleration of gravity.

It is the observation of what light is doing in the gravity field that is indicative of the presence of the proposed inverted gravitational time dilation.

[jerrygg38]

Alas, I can't do italics on this site any longer, so things get confused by the two different conventional uses of h, but yes, one is height above the surface of a large planet, and one is Planck's constant - as is obvious from dimensional analysis of the equations.   

...

   Just to clarify your last words. For a clock above the Earth spinning around with velocity V, the clock will slower relative to the Earth. As the clock moves faster it will slow even more. If put a clock on a tower atop a high mountain, is it correct that the clock will move slower than a clock at the base of the mountain. If we build a tower atop the mountain is it correct that the higher up the clock moves, the clock will move even slower.
 
 

Jerry - I think you need to read this:

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/aluminum-atomic-clock_092310.cfm

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

[timey]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yes!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

[jeffreyH (OP)]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yesy!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

If you carry an object in your hand to the top of a tower and let it go gravity will accelerate it toward the ground. This increases the kinetic energy of the object via the acceleration. A photon heading from space toward the ground cannot be accelerated since that would increase its speed above c. That is prohibited. So the only way a photon can gain kinetic energy is via a blue shift in its wavelength. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

[timey]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yesy!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

If you carry an object in your hand to the top of a tower and let it go gravity will accelerate it toward the ground. This increases the kinetic energy of the object via the acceleration. A photon heading from space toward the ground cannot be accelerated since that would increase its speed above c. That is prohibited. So the only way a photon can gain kinetic energy is via a blue shift in its wavelength. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Actually it's really easy to grasp, and was indeed grasped by myself yonks ago!

I am making an alteration to current theory...

Light blue shifting towards a gravity field cannot exceed the speed of light, we observe that its wavelength contracts...
I am simply altering the concept and saying: forget about relativistic mass concept, and that it is the time periods that the light is travelling through that are contracting, not the wavelength itself.  ie: 299 792 458 metres per ***variable seconds***.

Can 'you' grasp that?

[jeffreyH (OP)]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yesy!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

If you carry an object in your hand to the top of a tower and let it go gravity will accelerate it toward the ground. This increases the kinetic energy of the object via the acceleration. A photon heading from space toward the ground cannot be accelerated since that would increase its speed above c. That is prohibited. So the only way a photon can gain kinetic energy is via a blue shift in its wavelength. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Actually it's really easy to grasp, and was indeed grasped by myself yonks ago!

I am making an alteration to current theory...

Light blue shifting towards a gravity field cannot exceed the speed of light, we observe that its wavelength contracts...
I am simply altering the concept and saying: forget about relativistic mass concept, and that it is the time periods that the light is travelling through that are contracting, not the wavelength itself.  ie: 299 792 458 metres per ***variable seconds***.

Can 'you' grasp that?

Therefore you are accelerating the photon but YOU don't grasp THAT!

[timey]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yesy!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

If you carry an object in your hand to the top of a tower and let it go gravity will accelerate it toward the ground. This increases the kinetic energy of the object via the acceleration. A photon heading from space toward the ground cannot be accelerated since that would increase its speed above c. That is prohibited. So the only way a photon can gain kinetic energy is via a blue shift in its wavelength. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Actually it's really easy to grasp, and was indeed grasped by myself yonks ago!

I am making an alteration to current theory...

Light blue shifting towards a gravity field cannot exceed the speed of light, we observe that its wavelength contracts...
I am simply altering the concept and saying: forget about relativistic mass concept, and that it is the time periods that the light is travelling through that are contracting, not the wavelength itself.  ie: 299 792 458 metres per ***variable seconds***.

Can 'you' grasp that?

Therefore you are accelerating the photon but YOU don't grasp THAT!

Yes - the inverted time dilation accelerates the light, but the light is still travelling the same amount of metres per second as per the reference frame it is travelling through, so as per the equivalence principle, all is equal in every reference frame.

I have just interchanged the changes in the distance of the wavelength into a time values of variable seconds instead of variable lengths.

But you haven't grasped that, have you?

[jeffreyH (OP)]

Au contraire. I understand exactly the nature of your misconception.

[timey]

Au contraire. I understand exactly the nature of your misconception.

In that you still seem to view my idea as a misconception,  I seriously doubt that you have understood it.  You have also professed several times previously to understanding the idea, whereas it has turned out that you clearly have not.

If you are using GR as a bible then any concept that is not GR is misconceived.

...and in order to state my idea as a misconception, rather than as an alternative idea, you really would need to produce some mathematics that prove it unviable, which you haven't.

You are therefore out of line to describe my alternate idea as a misconception.  Whether you have understood it or not, you may indeed state yourself as being uninterested by the alternate idea quite legitimately, but this would be contradictory to the actions of you're posting...

So basically Jeff - I conclude that without justifying your claim that the alternate idea is misconceived, you are indeed being out of line.

[alancalverd]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yes!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

The only problem being that nobody has ever observed it.

[timey]

  Thanks for the info. I read it and copied it to my computer.  It is easy to understand the slowing of the clock with motion. Now the data specifies that the higher up we go, the faster the clock. I always need a picture in my mind to understand things. So the higher up we go, the less gravitational pressure on the clock and it will run faster.
  Then the other problem is that it appears that the lower down we are and the higher the gravitational field, the gravitational pressure will produce higher energy photons.
  These would be opposite effects. slower clock and higher energy photons. What do you think?

Aha, Jerry... Yes, yes, yes!!!

You have now arrived at 'the' observation that I've been attempting to illuminate.

Good on ya!

The only problem being that nobody has ever observed it.

The observation is apparent within the remit of the concepts...

Lights wavelength contracts when travelling into a gravity field, ie: in the stronger gravity field.

A clocks hypothetical wavelength dilates for clocks placed closer to the gravity field. ie: in the stronger gravity field.

[jeffreyH (OP)]

You can have a situation where a photon with a long wavelength is moving into a lower gravitational potential and a short wavelength photon is moving into a higher gravitational potential. We can find two points in the potential where each wavelength will have the value that the other started with. This shows just how silly your hypothesis is. Wavelength is simply a function of position and potential. The photons wavelength can start with just about any value at any magnitude of the potential. We can have a gamma ray and a radio wave generated at exactly the same position in the potential.

[timey]

You can have a situation where a photon with a long wavelength is moving into a lower gravitational potential and a short wavelength photon is moving into a higher gravitational potential. We can find two points in the potential where each wavelength will have the value that the other started with. This shows just how silly your hypothesis is. Wavelength is simply a function of position and potential. The photons wavelength can start with just about any value at any magnitude of the potential. We can have a gamma ray and a radio wave generated at exactly the same position in the potential.

And why do you say that this shows how silly my idea is?

Light waves can be emitted at a spectrum of energies and associated frequencies, but these energies and frequencies can only be shifted in energy and frequency in the gravity potential by degrees, and these degrees of shifting energy and frequency occur in a ladder format, where E=fh.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the energy and frequency of a light waves wavelength is indicative of the value of the proposed inverted time dilation...

I am suggesting that it is the degrees of change that are indicative of this value.

...and, please be aware that your observation and complaint of silliness also applies in practice to Hubble's red shift velocities.  Hubble has used the means of a standard candle to standardise wavelength for these velocity measurements.

[jeffreyH (OP)]

E

You can have a situation where a photon with a long wavelength is moving into a lower gravitational potential and a short wavelength photon is moving into a higher gravitational potential. We can find two points in the potential where each wavelength will have the value that the other started with. This shows just how silly your hypothesis is. Wavelength is simply a function of position and potential. The photons wavelength can start with just about any value at any magnitude of the potential. We can have a gamma ray and a radio wave generated at exactly the same position in the potential.

And why do you say that this shows how silly my idea is?

Light waves can be emitted at a spectrum of energies and associated frequencies, but these energies and frequencies can only be shifted in energy and frequency in the gravity potential by degrees, and these degrees of shifting energy and frequency occur in a ladder format, where E=fh.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the energy and frequency of a light waves wavelength is indicative of the value of the proposed inverted time dilation...

I am suggesting that it is the degrees of change that are indicative of this value.

So then we agree that it is only the gravitational potential gradient that matters. Which obeys postulates of the general theory of relativity. You have discredited your own hypothesis. Although you will likely fail entirely to understand how.

...and, please be aware that your observation and complaint of silliness also applies in practice to Hubble's red shift velocities.  Hubble has used the means of a standard candle to standardise wavelength for these velocity measurements.

[timey]

E

You can have a situation where a photon with a long wavelength is moving into a lower gravitational potential and a short wavelength photon is moving into a higher gravitational potential. We can find two points in the potential where each wavelength will have the value that the other started with. This shows just how silly your hypothesis is. Wavelength is simply a function of position and potential. The photons wavelength can start with just about any value at any magnitude of the potential. We can have a gamma ray and a radio wave generated at exactly the same position in the potential.

And why do you say that this shows how silly my idea is?

Light waves can be emitted at a spectrum of energies and associated frequencies, but these energies and frequencies can only be shifted in energy and frequency in the gravity potential by degrees, and these degrees of shifting energy and frequency occur in a ladder format, where E=fh.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the energy and frequency of a light waves wavelength is indicative of the value of the proposed inverted time dilation...

I am suggesting that it is the degrees of change that are indicative of this value.

So then we agree that it is only the gravitational potential gradient that matters. Which obeys postulates of the general theory of relativity. You have discredited your own hypothesis. Although you will likely fail entirely to understand how.

...and, please be aware that your observation and complaint of silliness also applies in practice to Hubble's red shift velocities.  Hubble has used the means of a standard candle to standardise wavelength for these velocity measurements.

That is a totally pointless post that only gives indication of your own pomposity and nothing else.

In that you are a moderator on
this site, I insist that you now explain yourself... (you wouldn't see Evan making a post like that!)

[jeffreyH (OP)]

The explanation is that your hypothesis runs counter to both theory and observation. Which you yourself have just made clear.

[timey]

The explanation is that your hypothesis runs counter to both theory and observation. Which you yourself have just made clear.

Clearly you have completely misunderstood what I'm saying then, as per usual.

Unless you tell me why you think my idea runs counter to both current theory and observation, as would be polite, I will not be able to correct you in where it is that you have misunderstood...